If you could do it over would you

[Whisker Barrel Cortex]

I would definitely do it again. First two years of med school were boring, but not too bad overall (still got to have fun). I enjoyed all of my rotations in 3rd year to a certain extent (except OB/GYN). Fourth year was a blast. Internship sucked, but I met a lot of good people. Even though a few of the patients really bugged me, I enjoyed working with the majority. Now I get to do radiology. The human body, its anatomy, its pathology, and the variety still interest me.

When I think about other things I might of done, none offer the same interesting work (sure some of it gets repetitive and boring, but much of it doesn't), capacity to do help people, and income that medicine does.

Now I can do things that I would have thought of as a career, such as photography and piloting, for fun (haven't done the pilot thing yet but I will do it once out of residency and more financially sound).

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[oldjeeps]

Take a look at this website:
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/6174/premed-advice.htm

It would be funnier if it weren't so true.

Disclaimer: not my site but it does a good job of answering the OP's question.

Now back to what is my life (now and for the next 6+ years ) - studying.

 

[doc05]

probably not. what roygbasch said really sums it up.

 

[Lonestar]

As an MD finishing his intern year, I can tell you boys and girls to get ready for some real pain. NO COMPLAINING, NO CRITICIZING, NO LAZINESS. Those three rules will help you deal with even the most psychotic attendings and residents. In reality, what residencies are looking for are indentured servants. Period. This is what happens when your entire life is in the hands of a few people who do not even pay for your services. Sounds familiar. It should b/c general population expects everything free while maintaining the utmost standards. To that i say bull$hit.

Now, do i want to do it over again? HELL NO!!! To all the pre meds out there, there are many other professions that nowdays have just as much lifestyle and money as medicine and they nearly don't work you do death. Pharm, Dentistry, etc. Get a life b/c I won't have one for the next 3 years. After that I will control my schedule by making less money. Just my two cents.

 

[Dire Straits]

it seems that it is roughly split between those who would do it again and those who advise not to go into medicine. maybe there is a certain personality type that is better suited for a medical career. and those whose personality is not suited are the ones who end up disliking it and wishing they had not done it. also i think many people who end up not liking medicine saw the signs early on. maybe even as early as when they were undergrads volunteering and applying to med school. but they tried to convince themselves as best they could that they would grow to like it or that it would be different somehow when they became doctors. only to eventually realize that they in fact did not like it but that now they were too far into the game to turn back.

 

[doc05]

it seems that it is roughly split between those who would do it again and those who advise not to go into medicine. maybe there is a certain personality type that is better suited for a medical career.

the personality type best suited for medicine:
full of inadequacy, features of narcissitic PD. A strong desire to be needed, often due to their own insecurities. Lack of imagination, creativity.

If have any capacity for independent thought, a desire to do anything even slightly creative, medicine may not be the best choice.

 

[Dire Straits]

the personality type best suited for medicine:
full of inadequacy, features of narcissitic PD. A strong desire to be needed, often due to their own insecurities. Lack of imagination, creativity.

If have any capacity for independent thought, a desire to do anything even slightly creative, medicine may not be the best choice.

doc, don't you think you may be you're exagerrating a bit? how about all those important developments in medicine and surgery. surely they took independent thought and creativity on part of the physicians who made them. but i do agree in the sense that some degree of conformity has to take place for the machinery of medicine to keep functioning, just as it does with the rest of society in general. there would be much disorder if everyone wanted to be the rebellious non-conformist doctor.

 

[doc05]

of course I'm exaggerating, but only a bit. all those important developments are thanks to a very small minority of physicians who are/were leaders in their fields.

the current practice environment and emphasis on EBM, however, encourages a cookbook approach to medicine. even moreso, most physicians are in medicine because they couldn't do anything else (remember in medicine, as "hard" as it is, your path is pretty much predetermined so long as you pass med school and choose a specialty).

 

[EMDream]

I wonder how many of those who said no, if they could go back would still enter a medical profession but with less school time and commitment, like maybe PT OT or PA? Where your life isnt' consumed by medicine as much and you aren't so in debt with such a time investment that you can't back out? Of course the compensation is less, but it's still not horrible.

Or would you all choose something completely unrelated to the medical field?

 

[fun8stuff]

even moreso, most physicians are in medicine because they couldn't do anything else

What exactly do you mean by this? I would have to say that you are most definately wrong. I have never heard of anyone going to medical school because they couldnt do anything else- the process is too rigorous and takes too much time. I would say this is more typical for those going to chiropractic school, denistry, pharmacy, optometry, etc (of course not true for all cases).

 

[doc05]

What exactly do you mean by this? I would have to say that you are most definately wrong. I have never heard of anyone going to medical school because they couldnt do anything else- the process is too rigorous and takes too much time. I would say this is more typical for those going to chiropractic school, denistry, pharmacy, optometry, etc (of course not true for all cases).

I don't mean "couldn't" in the academic sense. But high grades will only get you so far, and in the real world, count for very little. Most of those in med school could never earn anywhere the 200-300k they can earn as a physician, in any other field. They just don't have the business savvy or initiative.

That's not a judgment, just an observation.

 

[Ross434]

I think this is an interesting thread. While i'm not actually a doctor or med student, I have recently decided against being a doctor, after taking several premed classes, witnessing the personality types of most premeds, and basically deciding that it isnt going to be stimulating enough. I'm sure it's a great career for some people, especially people who have dreamed of it for their whole lives, and also people who are hardcore type-A obsessive variety. (note, i cant handle these personalities ) I'm a workaholic too, but i've decided against medicine recently, partly due to people who've told me that it just becomes routine of doing the same type of thing over and over again with little room for anything different, regardless of how much work you put in. What i mean is, if you put in more work and dedication,you will have just done the same thing for more patients. I think i'm more interested in a career with more varied mental stimulation, and opportunity for significant creative work. From what i've recently learned, there isn't much room for creativity in medicine. That, and the fact that I dont want to spend 15 years of my life racking up 300k of debt, when i'd rather be paid to go to school, get out earlier, and still end up with a mercedes and a nice house. That said, i'm getting my engineering PhD and hoping to do management, sales, or lead research. As Doc 05 said, few people in medicine probably could have made it in business or other fields (at least to the same degree of success), however, I think i am probably *more* suited to these fields. I bet I could have handled the academics in medicine, but I dont think i could have *made it* with the people and the atmosphere. Any comments?

 

[Dire Straits]

I think this is an interesting thread. While i'm not actually a doctor or med student, I have recently decided against being a doctor, after taking several premed classes, witnessing the personality types of most premeds, and basically deciding that it isnt going to be stimulating enough. I'm sure it's a great career for some people, especially people who have dreamed of it for their whole lives, and also people who are hardcore type-A obsessive variety. (note, i cant handle these personalities ) I'm a workaholic too, but i've decided against medicine recently, partly due to people who've told me that it just becomes routine of doing the same type of thing over and over again with little room for anything different, regardless of how much work you put in. What i mean is, if you put in more work and dedication,you will have just done the same thing for more patients. I think i'm more interested in a career with more varied mental stimulation, and opportunity for significant creative work. From what i've recently learned, there isn't much room for creativity in medicine. That, and the fact that I dont want to spend 15 years of my life racking up 300k of debt, when i'd rather be paid to go to school, get out earlier, and still end up with a mercedes and a nice house. That said, i'm getting my engineering PhD and hoping to do management, sales, or lead research. As Doc 05 said, few people in medicine probably could have made it in business or other fields (at least to the same degree of success), however, I think i am probably *more* suited to these fields. I bet I could have handled the academics in medicine, but I dont think i could have *made it* with the people and the atmosphere. Any comments?

why not go for the MD/PhD route? that way you won't accumulate a debt and you can go into medical research afterwards and not deal with the people and atmosphere of practicing medicine as much. as a medical researcher thinking up new research ideas, designing how the research will be carried out, performing the research, writing manuscripts for publications, presenting your work at conferences, etc. you won't be doing the same routine thing everyday.

 

[fun8stuff]

I don't mean "couldn't" in the academic sense. But high grades will only get you so far, and in the real world, count for very little. Most of those in med school could never earn anywhere the 200-300k they can earn as a physician, in any other field. They just don't have the business savvy or initiative.

That's not a judgment, just an observation.

That's interesting, you're the first i have heard say this- I have always heard the opposite on this board. However, I don't think there is any way of really knowing this... how would you observe this? As for myself, success in business just doesnt seemed guarenteed, which is one of the reasons why I am choosing medicine. Currently, there seems to be much more job security and high salary is practically guarenteed (hope this doesnt change).

From my limited experiences, it has always seemed that most of the people I have known that have done well in business are the ones who had the top grades in undergrad, mainly because these were the people who were willing to work the hardest. Of course, if someone has no people skills, intelligence will only get them so far.

 

[fun8stuff]

I think this is an interesting thread. While i'm not actually a doctor or med student, I have recently decided against being a doctor, after taking several premed classes, witnessing the personality types of most premeds, and basically deciding that it isnt going to be stimulating enough. I'm sure it's a great career for some people, especially people who have dreamed of it for their whole lives, and also people who are hardcore type-A obsessive variety. (note, i cant handle these personalities ) I'm a workaholic too, but i've decided against medicine recently, partly due to people who've told me that it just becomes routine of doing the same type of thing over and over again with little room for anything different, regardless of how much work you put in. What i mean is, if you put in more work and dedication,you will have just done the same thing for more patients. I think i'm more interested in a career with more varied mental stimulation, and opportunity for significant creative work. From what i've recently learned, there isn't much room for creativity in medicine. That, and the fact that I dont want to spend 15 years of my life racking up 300k of debt, when i'd rather be paid to go to school, get out earlier, and still end up with a mercedes and a nice house. That said, i'm getting my engineering PhD and hoping to do management, sales, or lead research. As Doc 05 said, few people in medicine probably could have made it in business or other fields (at least to the same degree of success), however, I think i am probably *more* suited to these fields. I bet I could have handled the academics in medicine, but I dont think i could have *made it* with the people and the atmosphere. Any comments?

You know, the avg debt is about 3 times less than what you stated, and I'm not sure where you got the 15 years from... maybe you are considering neurosurgery or what? 4 yrs med school, 3-6 yrs residency = 15?? Any how, I'm not sure how an engineering phd works, but I know in biology/chemistry areas that it often takes around 5 yrs to get the phd, then you often have to do 3-5 yrs of post-doctoral work to be competitive to be hired. Then when you are finally hired after 8-10 years of schooling, you may have no debt, but you will probably only make 50-80k. I would imagine it would be hard to afford a mercedes on this budget, if you plan on being married w/ kids. But, we are only speaking averages here... good luck!

http://career.eng.ohio-state.edu/ecs/Stats/PDF files/2002-2003_Salary_Offers.PDF
http://www.eng.iastate.edu/ecs/employers/PhDFall2001Salary.html

 

[abcxyz0123]

You know, the avg debt is about 3 times less than what you stated, and I'm not sure where you got the 15 years from... maybe you are considering neurosurgery or what? 4 yrs med school, 3-6 yrs residency = 15?? Any how, I'm not sure how an engineering phd works, but I know in biology/chemistry areas that it often takes around 5 yrs to get the phd, then you often have to do 3-5 yrs of post-doctoral work to be competitive to be hired. Then when you are finally hired after 8-10 years of schooling, you may have no debt, but you will probably only make 50-80k. I would imagine it would be hard to afford a mercedes on this budget, if you plan on being married w/ kids. But, we are only speaking averages here... good luck!

http://career.eng.ohio-state.edu/ecs/Stats/PDF files/2002-2003_Salary_Offers.PDF
http://www.eng.iastate.edu/ecs/employers/PhDFall2001Salary.html

undergrad

 

[aphistis]

That's interesting, you're the first i have heard say this- I have always heard the opposite on this board. However, I don't think there is any way of really knowing this... how would you observe this? As for myself, success in business just doesnt seemed guarenteed, which is one of the reasons why I am choosing medicine. Currently, there seems to be much more job security and high salary is practically guarenteed (hope this doesnt change).

From my limited experiences, it has always seemed that most of the people I have known that have done well in business are the ones who had the top grades in undergrad, mainly because these were the people who were willing to work the hardest. Of course, if someone has no people skills, intelligence will only get them so far.

Of course you hear the opposite all the time on SDN--with the amount of ego-padding going on, are you really surprised to hear people predicting they could do any job on earth magnificently?

 

[ZephyrX]

I have to ask, what other professions have less BS than medicine? Or less paperwork? Or the politics? Or the attitude?

If you take Strategy Consulting/ Investment Banking / Finance / Marketing for example they are all horrible. Most of those people are excel geeks who work for under 50k in large cities while working 7 AM to 10 PM. And thats a fact. After 3-4 years have passed they will attempt to get into a top 20 MBA and after two years of that they will enter the workplace again at 120k a year with horrible work conditions. I know a resident that worked in McKinsey in Germany for 3 years after college and said it was the hardest thing he had to do in his whole life.

Or how about the other professional degree, the JD? Let's see, have to be ultra competitive to get into a top 20 school (again), graduate in the top 30% of your class (if not higher) in order to get a decent job. And that's where the fun begins. You do boring work the first few years (while bringing in 120k a year at the big firms in the big markets), while working gruelling hours and having no life. Hopefully the partners will like you enough so that after 7-10 years you will make partner (if not then your career is over). And that happens after having kissed so much ass, played the company political game and not having seen your family (since you work from 8 AM to 8 PM to meet those 2200 billable hours). But that is not guaranteed either. Let's not forget though that there are a lot of law schools and god only know how much money a person at the bottom of the class of a tier3 law school will bring in IF he finds a job.

Yes there was the dot com boom that was creative and fun and people loved working there because it was such a groundbreaking form of business. But what happened to that?

Let's face it. Most jobs these days are NOT creative. Medicine may not bring in the most money but at least you are a guaranteed a certain amount of money upon completion of your residency and chances are that if you want a job you will find out quite easily. I have friends who are PhDs and MBAs from top places and are having problems with that.

And most professions these days are routine.

Medicine does offer job and income security (somewhat).

And to be quite honest, although i wouldn't call it a "calling", it's the only thing that i could see myself doing. Yes it's a tough road (even tougher than most other professions) but i feel that beyond the money or security or prestige (if there is such thing left for us), i would not be happier doing anything else.

Z. (finishing med school)

 

[fun8stuff]

undergrad

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/5349.html

$115,218 – According to the Association of American Medical Colleges, the
average educational debt of indebted graduates of the class of 2004
(including pre-med borrowing)

 

[Ross434]

You know, the avg debt is about 3 times less than what you stated, and I'm not sure where you got the 15 years from... maybe you are considering neurosurgery or what? 4 yrs med school, 3-6 yrs residency = 15?? Any how, I'm not sure how an engineering phd works, but I know in biology/chemistry areas that it often takes around 5 yrs to get the phd, then you often have to do 3-5 yrs of post-doctoral work to be competitive to be hired. Then when you are finally hired after 8-10 years of schooling, you may have no debt, but you will probably only make 50-80k. I would imagine it would be hard to afford a mercedes on this budget, if you plan on being married w/ kids. But, we are only speaking averages here... good luck!

http://career.eng.ohio-state.edu/ecs/Stats/PDF files/2002-2003_Salary_Offers.PDF
http://www.eng.iastate.edu/ecs/employers/PhDFall2001Salary.html

As far as the 15 years, yeah, i wanted to do spine surg. And as to the MD/Phd option that someone else suggested, that takes even longer (add fellowship, post doc, and phd time), and you end up making no money. Most engineering phds take 5 years or less, and get a faculty or industry job upon graduation, and are usually high paying.

 

[Learfan]

As a PhD in a physical science who has worked with a "big name" industrial firm for a while, I can tell you that it was not worth the struggle. When I graduated in the late 1980s, it took five years for the average candidate to finish the degree. Now it takes closer to seven years and I am not including the two postdoctoral years that may be required to secure employment with a major company or an appointment as an assistant professor. I recieved a total of one job offer at the end of graduate school after completing the degree with a 3.69 from a major midwestern university. This was after 35 interviews and seven job trips. To date, I have had zero luck in finding alternate employment. The market is that tight.

As a PhD in either industry or academics your job largely consists of begging for money either from business types whose only concern is cost containment or from granting agencies such as NIH or the Petroleum Research Fund of the American Chemical Society. Needless to say, the money is hard to get. And if you do not get enough grant money to cover your salary and research expenses, out the door you go.

This leads me to mention the job market in my field. According to the latest survey conducted by our professional society, only 37% of recent graduates as of June, 2004 were able to secure work in their area. The rest either go hungry or use secondary skills acquired while performing research such as coding to earn a living. The investment of five or more years working long hours in an unsafe academic environment is a very poor investment if you are seeking any measure of job security. Based upon my experience with members of the engineering staff, it appears that there are far more job opportunities open to them at all levels of academic achievement.

Further, it should be noted that malignant personalities are found everywhere, not just in high powered attendings who wish to take petty revenge on new interns. My graduate advisor was apalled when I made it clear that my personal life was a private issue. His advice was neither needed nor welcome. Our relationship for the last year of my work there was rather adversarial.

One should also beware of the difference in structure when comparing an MD with a PhD. In an MD program, you complete all of the classes with a satisfactory grade and you get the degree. In a PhD program, you have little say over how much research constitutes "enough" for a thesis. Your thesis advisor has almost total control over when you graduate. Did you pass the written exam? Did you pass your oral exam? These issues are very subjective and you have no control.

The standard deal at my university was to make it clear to the student that you were eligable for five years of support through teaching, grant money or fellowships. After that, you were on your own. The faculty would then allow you to interview for a job in your fifth year and then hold you over by requiring more research until you recieved "THE CALL". The call consisted of a discussion with the employer who was waiting for you to complete your degree with a job that needed attention. During the call you were informed that they had waited long enough and if you were unable to start work the next week, you no longer had a job. This resulted in the aspiring PhD running out to his job that weekend, thesis unwritten. He then spent the next one to two years writing the thesis at night without any of the specialized materials that were located at the university lab. Needless to say, the young PhD candidate often found his welcome diminished at his new employer and the job was already off to a rocky start. And your thesis defence was still hanging in the balance.

In addition, it should be acknowledged that although PhDs may have an opportunity to engage in some creative problem solving, it often leads to absolutely nothing. Think about the process needed to get a new product to market. You must concieve the idea, skunkwork the first few experiments to prove the idea has merit, apply for funding, perform a series of now authorized experiemnts to further validate the idea, report out to the funding body, request more funds, perform a market test to determine if the new product is viable, perform an economic assessment to determine if the new product will be profitable to produce, etc., etc., etc........................
If, at any time you lose funding, an experiment goes poorly or someone with authority in the corporation decides "Today we are going to pursue an new theme.", then all of your efforts go out the window and it is back to square one. The vast majority of all projects never see the light of day. I would find it more appealing to perform a surgical procedure or prescribe a medication that actually has a chance of solving a real problem rather than continue to engage in endless corporate time wasting.

Perhaps as a PhD/MD you get a chance to work on better quality projects and enjoy a measure of job satisfaction. As a pure PhD in an industrial setting, however, I regret to report that almost everyone at my job site loathes their job, loathes the company and is just counting the days until retirement or the next layoff. Job satisfaction as measured by the ability to solve a real problem is close to zero. An IM doc who prescribes an antibiotic to cure an ear infection accomplishes more in fifteen minutes than most industry based physical science PhDs accomplish in a career.

 

[Ross434]

As a PhD in a physical science who has worked with a "big name" industrial firm for a while, I can tell you that it was not worth the struggle. When I graduated in the late 1980s, it took five years for the average candidate to finish the degree. Now it takes closer to seven years and I am not including the two postdoctoral years that may be required to secure employment with a major company or an appointment as an assistant professor. I recieved a total of one job offer at the end of graduate school after completing the degree with a 3.69 from a major midwestern university. This was after 35 interviews and seven job trips. To date, I have had zero luck in finding alternate employment. The market is that tight.

As a PhD in either industry or academics your job largely consists of begging for money either from business types whose only concern is cost containment or from granting agencies such as NIH or the Petroleum Research Fund of the American Chemical Society. Needless to say, the money is hard to get. And if you do not get enough grant money to cover your salary and research expenses, out the door you go.

This leads me to mention the job market in my field. According to the latest survey conducted by our professional society, only 37% of recent graduates as of June, 2004 were able to secure work in their area. The rest either go hungry or use secondary skills acquired while performing research such as coding to earn a living. The investment of five or more years working long hours in an unsafe academic environment is a very poor investment if you are seeking any measure of job security. Based upon my experience with members of the engineering staff, it appears that there are far more job opportunities open to them at all levels of academic achievement.

Further, it should be noted that malignant personalities are found everywhere, not just in high powered attendings who wish to take petty revenge on new interns. My graduate advisor was apalled when I made it clear that my personal life was a private issue. His advice was neither needed nor welcome. Our relationship for the last year of my work there was rather adversarial.

One should also beware of the difference in structure when comparing an MD with a PhD. In an MD program, you complete all of the classes with a satisfactory grade and you get the degree. In a PhD program, you have little say over how much research constitutes "enough" for a thesis. Your thesis advisor has almost total control over when you graduate. Did you pass the written exam? Did you pass your oral exam? These issues are very subjective and you have no control.

The standard deal at my university was to make it clear to the student that you were eligable for five years of support through teaching, grant money or fellowships. After that, you were on your own. The faculty would then allow you to interview for a job in your fifth year and then hold you over by requiring more research until you recieved "THE CALL". The call consisted of a discussion with the employer who was waiting for you to complete your degree with a job that needed attention. During the call you were informed that they had waited long enough and if you were unable to start work the next week, you no longer had a job. This resulted in the aspiring PhD running out to his job that weekend, thesis unwritten. He then spent the next one to two years writing the thesis at night without any of the specialized materials that were located at the university lab. Needless to say, the young PhD candidate often found his welcome diminished at his new employer and the job was already off to a rocky start. And your thesis defence was still hanging in the balance.

In addition, it should be acknowledged that although PhDs may have an opportunity to engage in some creative problem solving, it often leads to absolutely nothing. Think about the process needed to get a new product to market. You must concieve the idea, skunkwork the first few experiments to prove the idea has merit, apply for funding, perform a series of now authorized experiemnts to further validate the idea, report out to the funding body, request more funds, perform a market test to determine if the new product is viable, perform an economic assessment to determine if the new product will be profitable to produce, etc., etc., etc........................
If, at any time you lose funding, an experiment goes poorly or someone with authority in the corporation decides "Today we are going to pursue an new theme.", then all of your efforts go out the window and it is back to square one. The vast majority of all projects never see the light of day. I would find it more appealing to perform a surgical procedure or prescribe a medication that actually has a chance of solving a real problem rather than continue to engage in endless corporate time wasting.

Perhaps as a PhD/MD you get a chance to work on better quality projects and enjoy a measure of job satisfaction. As a pure PhD in an industrial setting, however, I regret to report that almost everyone at my job site loathes their job, loathes the company and is just counting the days until retirement or the next layoff. Job satisfaction as measured by the ability to solve a real problem is close to zero. An IM doc who prescribes an antibiotic to cure an ear infection accomplishes more in fifteen minutes than most industry based physical science PhDs accomplish in a career.

Wow, that's too bad you're so bummed out. Maybe you should try teaching? Is the job market that different in physical sciences than it is in engineering? Almost every university out there is hiring engineering faculty (unlike chem and physics profs), year after year. What field are you in, if i may ask?

 

[humuhumu]

of course I'm exaggerating, but only a bit. all those important developments are thanks to a very small minority of physicians who are/were leaders in their fields.

the current practice environment and emphasis on EBM, however, encourages a cookbook approach to medicine. even moreso, most physicians are in medicine because they couldn't do anything else (remember in medicine, as "hard" as it is, your path is pretty much predetermined so long as you pass med school and choose a specialty).

In my experience this was a fairly common sentiment among graduate students at the elite institution where I did my graduate work. Physicians were viewed as glorified mechanics, and medical school was viewed as a glorified trade school. Just jump through all the hoops, and you're a doctor. No innovation or curiosity or independent thought required. Getting a PhD was considered a higher calling because creativity and passion for discovery were valued much more than status or wealth. Needless to say, I reject these stereotypes...

 

[fun8stuff]

In my experience this was a fairly common sentiment among graduate students at the elite institution where I did my graduate work. Physicians were viewed as glorified mechanics, and medical school was viewed as a glorified trade school. Just jump through all the hoops, and you're a doctor. No innovation or curiosity or independent thought required. Getting a PhD was considered a higher calling because creativity and passion for discovery were valued much more than status or wealth. Needless to say, I reject these stereotypes...

well i would be bitter too if i went through the same amount of schooling only to get a fraction of the pay and a fraction of the prestige...

 

[Bfriccia1]

I don't mean "couldn't" in the academic sense. But high grades will only get you so far, and in the real world, count for very little. Most of those in med school could never earn anywhere the 200-300k they can earn as a physician, in any other field. They just don't have the business savvy or initiative.

That's not a judgment, just an observation.

Doing well in business or law involves mostly just a lot of hard work. You don't necessarily have to be Warren Buffet to make a lot of money in business or law. The best business/lawyers are the ones who outwork everyone else around them and get into the most prestigious schools and then literally work their way up. I think medical school applicants tend to be pretty good in that regard.

 

[MSc44]

holy ****!!!

did not expect all this when i made the original post, figured a few responces, but this is great

 

[AnotherDork]

In reading this thread, I noticed a recurring theme seems to be that many people think medical school "wasn't what they expected" compared to their view of how medical school/the medical profession would be before they started.

As someone who's starting medical school in the fall, I was wondering if you could share what you thought school would be like and how it compares to your feelings now. I mean, I fully expect to do a lot of studying, work long hours on the wards, and do a lot of grunt work. Not exactly glamorous- just helping me get to where I want to be. Were you expecting it to be glamorous? Or just something different? Thanks.

 

[oldbearprofessor]

Med student = no experience = positive outlook.
Attending = too much experience = sh$tty outlook.

Hmm - perhaps psychiatry might suit you better Roy?

Seriously, this is a great thread and one of the reasons that I find SDN quite fascinating even though I am a bit past residency.

I encourage everyone to read Melvin Konner's book, "Becoming a doctor"- it is the serious version of House of God. Both are dated but will be helpful to those who need some written version of what they are experiencing. I found the Konner book to be a bit excessively negative, but all in all, very reflective of much of my experience as a med student.

I'm sorry for those of you who experience attending as having bad attitudes. There is no doubt that right now is a challenging time for people who started medical school, as I did, in the 1970's with a very different set of expectations than what the reality is now. We expected to work hard - days off, early home-going after call, etc were not a part of our expectations, or experiences. However, there was an expectation of independence of practice and a sense of the future that has been damaged by the malpractice crisis and the overall managed care situation for many of my classmates and those of my era.

Personally, I am still very glad I went this route. I had to choose between an MD and a biology PhD, - I was not premed for most of my undergraduate experience, but was wisely guided by the late Bernie Gould at MIT to go to med school and do whatever research I wanted with an MD. Best advice I've ever gotten. MD/PhD wasn't a widespread option then and I'm not sure it would have been best for me anyway.

In looking at what has made my colleagues happy or unhappy with their careers, I generally think that happiness has come from making decisions and changes that have given them the most control over and enjoyment of their practices. For quite a few people this has meant going part-time, traveling more, focusing on med education more, or even leaving the big children's hospitals for less academic, but sometimes more enjoyable settings. Obviously, getting their personal life in order matters too.

The net result has been a loss of income and lifestyle for some, but in pediatrics we kind of expected to drive Subaru's anyway, so for the most part it doesn't matter.

Again, for me, the academic world has been the best choice I made. I prefer to only do about 25% patient care and the rest be education and research. I make a lot less money than I would in private practice doing full-time patient care, but the trade-off works for my family and they get some of the perks of the academic life such as traveling with me to unusual places.

Regards and best wishes to those of you struggling with this.

OBP

 

[doc05]

....Not exactly glamorous- just helping me get to where I want to be.

Are you sure it's really where you want to be?

 

[doc05]

Hmm - perhaps psychiatry might suit you better Roy?

Seriously, this is a great thread and one of the reasons that I find SDN quite fascinating even though I am a bit past residency.

I encourage everyone to read Melvin Konner's book, "Becoming a doctor"- it is the serious version of House of God. Both are dated but will be helpful to those who need some written version of what they are experiencing. I found the Konner book to be a bit excessively negative, but all in all, very reflective of much of my experience as a med student.

I'm sorry for those of you who experience attending as having bad attitudes. There is no doubt that right now is a challenging time for people who started medical school, as I did, in the 1970's with a very different set of expectations than what the reality is now. We expected to work hard - days off, early home-going after call, etc were not a part of our expectations, or experiences. However, there was an expectation of independence of practice and a sense of the future that has been damaged by the malpractice crisis and the overall managed care situation for many of my classmates and those of my era.

Personally, I am still very glad I went this route. I had to choose between an MD and a biology PhD, - I was not premed for most of my undergraduate experience, but was wisely guided by the late Bernie Gould at MIT to go to med school and do whatever research I wanted with an MD. Best advice I've ever gotten. MD/PhD wasn't a widespread option then and I'm not sure it would have been best for me anyway.

In looking at what has made my colleagues happy or unhappy with their careers, I generally think that happiness has come from making decisions and changes that have given them the most control over and enjoyment of their practices. For quite a few people this has meant going part-time, traveling more, focusing on med education more, or even leaving the big children's hospitals for less academic, but sometimes more enjoyable settings. Obviously, getting their personal life in order matters too.

The net result has been a loss of income and lifestyle for some, but in pediatrics we kind of expected to drive Subaru's anyway, so for the most part it doesn't matter.

Again, for me, the academic world has been the best choice I made. I prefer to only do about 25% patient care and the rest be education and research. I make a lot less money than I would in private practice doing full-time patient care, but the trade-off works for my family and they get some of the perks of the academic life such as traveling with me to unusual places.

Regards and best wishes to those of you struggling with this.

OBP

In my experience, it seems that academicians tend to be very satisfied in their careers, assuming a reasonable degree of success.

But for those of us who'd prefer private practice, moreso because of autonomy as opposed to income, the outlook is very bleak.

 

[MD'05]

If you want creativity, take up ceramics.

 

[turtle md]

Have you noticed that films about medical school show it as first, a gross anatomy course, and then all of a sudden jump to the clinical years with med students having much more responsibility than most students I know ever had?

I never thought about being a doctor when growing up; I never really thought much about what I would end up being. Chose Anthropology in undergrad because it seemed interesting - examing aspects of different cultures, etc. As I went through my classes, I discovered that I really liked the physical side of Anthro. Then, on a bet, I applied to medical school and was accepted. Since I had nothing better to do with my time (had already traveled quite a bit), I went for it. I had loads of fun during med school. Yeah, sure, it was hard at times, but then so are many other things. But I met some of my best friends during my med school days. Now I am about to begin an EM residency. I know I haven't yet experienced what is it truly like to be a doctor, but it still seems like an exciting life with loads of benefits. For example, back to the Anthro/traveling track, I have found that a culture, or a group of people, finds it difficult to accept an outsider into their lives. But as I did many international rotations in med school, I found that by actually providing a service that is needed, it is much easier for them to accept an outsider. The relationship I built with comunities would have taken much longer if I were an Anthropologist, and may have never happened as a simple tourist.

So, yes, I would do it again if given the choice (maybe skipping my IM rotation ).

 

[Stinger86]

Have you noticed that films about medical school show it as first, a gross anatomy course, and then all of a sudden jump to the clinical years with med students having much more responsibility than most students I know ever had?

Ever seen the movie Switchback with Danny Glover and Dennis Quaid (I think)? One of the characters is a hitchhiker who used to be a med student but dropped out during his second year. There's one scene at a diner where some guy is choking on his food and the med student performs a trach on him with a kitchen knife and a drinking straw.


....


And I can barely do chest compressions correctly

 

[roygbasch]

Hmm - perhaps psychiatry might suit you better Roy?

I tried that already. It's all in Mount Misery, in case you're curious how it went. Never will forget old Schlomo.

 

[oldbearprofessor]

Hmm - perhaps psychiatry might suit you better Roy?

I tried that already. It's all in Mount Misery, in case you're curious how it went. Never will forget old Schlomo.

Uh, I knew that....

Mt. Misery is the most intense attack on a medical specialty I've ever read. I don't think many read it as it wasn't funny and had a very directed purpose.

OBP

 

[EL CAPeeeTAN]

I have been reading and reading on this thread and have some thoughts to add. Here is a little back ground. I am 32 and have been on a business career path related to medicine. I recently went back to school to take my pre reqs. and applied to med school this cycle. I got into Ros Frank.(Finch / Chicago Medical School) AP. For those that do not know this is a program where you take 1/2 of MS1 courses and if you maintain a 3.0 you get to continue on in medical school taking the 2nd 1/2 of the MS1 clases during your 2nd year (basically a 5 year program) so even more debt.

I worked for Pfizer Pharmaceuticals right out of college selling Zithromax, Glucotrol, Zoloft, Viagra. Then I realized that many docs did not know squat about business and were loosing lots of money. These were docs who got hired by some group out of residency and after being a slave for the group thought they could make more money on their own. So I formed a medical business consulting company and started taking on all types of miserable and poor docs from almost every specialty (ortho, urology, IM, FP, Peds, Plastic, Nephrology, Surgery, Derm, Ophto, etc.) These guys were all loosing $$$ on their own. Eventually me and another doc opened a multispecialty clinic and I ran the business side. Over 5 years we grew to 5 locations 20 + docs with specialties from ortho, plastics, to primary care, etc. I dealt with recruiting docs, firing docs, negotiating with insurance companies, hospitals, mal practice, etc. (we were sued about 2 times / year) I was paying 120k / year!!! for the ortho surgeon who had never been sued!!!! My point is I know the business side / crap the docs face today. Beleive me it is horrible. I could hire FP or IM docs for 80K/ year, granted they were not the most competitive applicants and somewhat desperate. We had 5 PAs doing a lot of the work also. Most of the docs were disgruntled with their careers.
All of my best friends from college went into medicine and are now finishing their residencies. (1 is Rads, 1 Urology, 1 Gas, 1 Pathology, 1 optho, 1 Ortho, 2 IM) I have remained pretty close with them throughout their training. They wish they did not have debt, they wish they had a decent car and a house, they wish that they made money, etc. Many have told me that I am crazy to go into medicine. I am married have 2 kids, I have made decent money, have a house, cars etc. (not bragging, just giving you an idea of my situation). I sold my ownership in the clinic when I went back to school to take prereqs and the MCAT. Currently my wife and I run a small medical billing business. She will continue to run it while I go to med school.
What is my point to this ramble of a post? Everyone hates their careers and complains, "the grass is always greener" My attorney friends hate their jobs. My corporate friends are working 60 - 100 hours / week and traveling all of the time. They might be making good money but they can't spend it. When they go on their vacations, they really can't relax. The cell phones, politics of the office, this project, that project and deadlines remain, so they are miserable on their vacation and practically working anyways. The weekends are the same thing and they end up working. My MBA business friends make great money, drive nice cars etc are totally jealous that I am going back to school to be a doctor, most of them are overworked and stressed to the max. Their marriages suffer and there kids wonder when they will see dad again. The point is work is called work because it is work and every profession sucks on some level and the people in those careers dream about what if i was a ...... etc. Life is hard regardless of your profession / Job. At least as a doc ther is an ocassional rare occurance where you are actually helping someone (but the insurance claim will get rejected) so you won't get paid and the patient will probably sue you.

Accountants don't want to be accountants, CEO wish they did something else, even rock stars complain about how hard touring is etc. I have one friend who is independently wealthy and does not have to do anything and he complains and is anxious that he has too much time ans feels unfulfilled. Consultants don't want to be consultants. Teachers don't want to be teachers (not enough money and tons of headaches). I think you get my point.

I do not know if this will help anyone, but the fact of life is that we always wish we did something else and everything looks perfect from far away. At the end of the day most of my close friends that are docs are deep down very glad that they get to do what they do and they eventually find a balance and make life work. Anyways, sorry to rant and rave and go on and on, I am sure I am still naive (not having even started classes yet) but I have lived the life that many of you now say you wished you did instaed of medicine and it can suck too. I have worked my fair share of 80 - 100 hour work weeks in business. Be glad that you are a doc and will always be needed and can really help people. The grass is not always greener and you will eventually find your happy place. I would agree with those who have said do not go into medicine for money or prestige, etc. It is not there anymore.

 

[GonnaBeAnMD]

Wow EL CAPeeeTAN, VERY NICE POST!

A couple of questions: The doc you partnered with - wasn't he making big bucks for running that operation with you?

Also, I've noticed dentisty is the place to be nowadays. My aunt had a pre-op surgery for veneers and the dentist took 2 hours - charged $6,000 CASH - and no supplies cost involved. No insurance. Then there is the $25,000 cash veneer job to be followed. I don't think these guys are thinking the grass is greener anywhere else but inside their office - but that's sort of a new topic.

However, many general dentists complain still... their daily routine, how people hate going to them and almost all complain of back pain.

So you do have a great point. And I enjoyed reading your post. Thanks.

 

[EL CAPeeeTAN]

Wow EL CAPeeeTAN, VERY NICE POST!

A couple of questions: The doc you partnered with - wasn't he making big bucks for running that operation with you?

Also, I've noticed dentisty is the place to be nowadays. My aunt had a pre-op surgery for veneers and the dentist took 2 hours - charged $6,000 CASH - and no supplies cost involved. No insurance. Then there is the $25,000 cash veneer job to be followed. I don't think these guys are thinking the grass is greener anywhere else but inside their office - but that's sort of a new topic.

Thanks for the feedback!!

The doctor that I partnered with eventually started to make bank. The first 2 years we had to get loans to pay for startup costs, salaries, etc. So both of us worked crazy hours and made almost zip, but After we got it going the money followed but the headaches and work remained and even became more intense, but at the end of the day it was a job and I got to really see many aspects of medicine and liked it a lot while still realizing it was a job.

As for the dentist you mentioned, it kind of sounds like the 2 plastic surgeons that worked at my clinic. Yes, these guys can make some great money and many do, but they have great business skills or a partner that has the business skills. These cash based proceadures need to be pulled in and there is a lot of competition. I know 2 or 3 plastics barely making it becasuse they do not know how to market etc, but I also know a few who are well established and make over a million $$$ / year. It can be done. But I think if money is the ultimate goal then MBA / business is the route to go but it is important to go to a top 10 MBA school. Many of my MBA friends make crazy money, they work a ton and the pressure is huge but the money is great.

 

[roygbasch]

I have been reading and reading on this thread and have some thoughts to add. Here is a little back ground. I am 32 and have been on a business career path related to medicine. I recently went back to school to take my pre reqs. and applied to med school this cycle. I got into Ros Frank.(Finch / Chicago Medical School) AP. For those that do not know this is a program where you take 1/2 of MS1 courses and if you maintain a 3.0 you get to continue on in medical school taking the 2nd 1/2 of the MS1 clases during your 2nd year (basically a 5 year program) so even more debt.

I worked for Pfizer Pharmaceuticals right out of college selling Zithromax, Glucotrol, Zoloft, Viagra. Then I realized that many docs did not know squat about business and were loosing lots of money. These were docs who got hired by some group out of residency and after being a slave for the group thought they could make more money on their own. So I formed a medical business consulting company and started taking on all types of miserable and poor docs from almost every specialty (ortho, urology, IM, FP, Peds, Plastic, Nephrology, Surgery, Derm, Ophto, etc.) These guys were all loosing $$$ on their own. Eventually me and another doc opened a multispecialty clinic and I ran the business side. Over 5 years we grew to 5 locations 20 + docs with specialties from ortho, plastics, to primary care, etc. I dealt with recruiting docs, firing docs, negotiating with insurance companies, hospitals, mal practice, etc. (we were sued about 2 times / year) I was paying 120k / year!!! for the ortho surgeon who had never been sued!!!! My point is I know the business side / crap the docs face today. Beleive me it is horrible. I could hire FP or IM docs for 80K/ year, granted they were not the most competitive applicants and somewhat desperate. We had 5 PAs doing a lot of the work also. Most of the docs were disgruntled with their careers.
All of my best friends from college went into medicine and are now finishing their residencies. (1 is Rads, 1 Urology, 1 Gas, 1 Pathology, 1 optho, 1 Ortho, 2 IM) I have remained pretty close with them throughout their training. They wish they did not have debt, they wish they had a decent car and a house, they wish that they made money, etc. Many have told me that I am crazy to go into medicine. I am married have 2 kids, I have made decent money, have a house, cars etc. (not bragging, just giving you an idea of my situation). I sold my ownership in the clinic when I went back to school to take prereqs and the MCAT. Currently my wife and I run a small medical billing business. She will continue to run it while I go to med school.
What is my point to this ramble of a post? Everyone hates their careers and complains, "the grass is always greener" My attorney friends hate their jobs. My corporate friends are working 60 - 100 hours / week and traveling all of the time. They might be making good money but they can't spend it. When they go on their vacations, they really can't relax. The cell phones, politics of the office, this project, that project and deadlines remain, so they are miserable on their vacation and practically working anyways. The weekends are the same thing and they end up working. My MBA business friends make great money, drive nice cars etc are totally jealous that I am going back to school to be a doctor, most of them are overworked and stressed to the max. Their marriages suffer and there kids wonder when they will see dad again. The point is work is called work because it is work and every profession sucks on some level and the people in those careers dream about what if i was a ...... etc. Life is hard regardless of your profession / Job. At least as a doc ther is an ocassional rare occurance where you are actually helping someone (but the insurance claim will get rejected) so you won't get paid and the patient will probably sue you.

Accountants don't want to be accountants, CEO wish they did something else, even rock stars complain about how hard touring is etc. I have one friend who is independently wealthy and does not have to do anything and he complains and is anxious that he has too much time ans feels unfulfilled. Consultants don't want to be consultants. Teachers don't want to be teachers (not enough money and tons of headaches). I think you get my point.

I do not know if this will help anyone, but the fact of life is that we always wish we did something else and everything looks perfect from far away. At the end of the day most of my close friends that are docs are deep down very glad that they get to do what they do and they eventually find a balance and make life work. Anyways, sorry to rant and rave and go on and on, I am sure I am still naive (not having even started classes yet) but I have lived the life that many of you now say you wished you did instaed of medicine and it can suck too. I have worked my fair share of 80 - 100 hour work weeks in business. Be glad that you are a doc and will always be needed and can really help people. The grass is not always greener and you will eventually find your happy place. I would agree with those who have said do not go into medicine for money or prestige, etc. It is not there anymore.

Great post. It does help to keep things in perspective. Thanks for that.

And OBP, I agree completely. Mt. Misery was a pretty miserable read. Not any fun and way too polemical and calculated. But rereading HOG has been a riot. Some things don't change.

 

[DD214_DOC]

I don't know. How many of you med students/residents actually had to do something other than school? Trying to find a decent job and deal with having a family and all that isn't any more enjoyable or less stressful.

It takes several years to advance in any career to the point of making even $60k a year. Friends who have graduated with me and myself can't find any entry-level jobs that pay more than $30k a year.

Enjoy your prospects.

 

[ZephyrX]

Here is the main reason why people would not do it all over again. Because of their misconceptions and unrealistic & shallow expectations :

Taken from the pre-allo forum : [Poster trying to decide between Columbia, Yale and UMich MD/MBA]

criticize me if you will, but my concern with Umich is its lack of "wow" factor. In the business field, which I am very likely to get into, name stands for (almost) everything. Most ppl dont go to US news and check the rankings. When you have a degree from places like yale, you simply have more presence. It's sad, but it's the reality. So it comes down to whether it's worth $100K to "buy" that name factor.

I think the above quote says it all and i won't find it suprising 4 years from now that the above person will be unhappy.

 

[kas23]

Here is the main reason why people would not do it all over again. Because of their misconceptions and unrealistic & shallow expectations :

Taken from the pre-allo forum : [Poster trying to decide between Columbia, Yale and UMich MD/MBA]



I think the above quote says it all and i won't find it suprising 4 years from now that the above person will be unhappy.

That post you found certainly doesn't lack any "wow" factor.

 

[ZephyrX]

That post you found certainly doesn't lack any "wow" factor.

Yup! UMich has no "wow" factor. Let alone UMich with 100k scholarship.

Oh the things you learn...

 

[Dire Straits]

I want to be a doctor because I want to help people. I don't care about the money. As long as I'm helping people then I will be completely happy. It's not just a job, it's my "calling".

 

[tupac_don]

i'll echo what waterski said - you really have to want to be a physician, not to be rich or well-known or whatever. there are plenty of other professions where you will make more money, sooner, and have less debt. but if medicine is really what you love, it's not as arduous. it is no pleasure cruise and there are much more fun things to do with your 20's, but it's really a decision you have to make. you will be telling your non-medical friends "no, i can't" a lot, but you also get some nice blocks of time to do some amazing things if you so desire.

talk to as many people as you can about their reasons for going into medicine too - that can be more enlightening than exactly why they do or do not enjoy it now. for some it was parents' insistence or illusions of fame and riches, or an incomplete understanding of the amount of work involved.

Well put, it's an illusion of fame and riches. Being a doctor, doesn't make you rich, famous, happier, it just makes you a doctor. It's a job like any other job. But the difference is that it is really hyped up and the prevailing stereotype of a doctor is of a rich, well respected competent professional who commands respect of those around him. While this may be the case, this is only at the end of the road, once you become attending and is hardly the norm for every attending. I think if anything it is a glamorized view of the profession. Only the good aspects are portrayed, while the bad and the ugly are conveniently tucked away. Just like in any profession there are good and bad doctors. The difference is that bad doctors, can seriously hurt you.

 

[Dire Straits]

Well put, it's an illusion of fame and riches.

well not completely true. there are a fair share of doctors who are rich and/or famous. these are usually the same doctors who other doctors are jealous of.

It's a job like any other job.

blasphemy!!

 

[roja]

Medicine is a difficult path to take. It requires alot of sacrifice on the way and even once you are done (the notion that all the difficulty ends with med school/residency is a common theme I see). However, it is a great field, for many reasons. Its intellectually challenging-forever. It is a field that will require you continually educate yourself. It involves the very exciting field of medicine.. of diagnosing and treating (very different from 'loving biology'). There is an art form to this (yes, its a cliche for a reason). This can be a never ending source of frustration for some and very satisfying for others.

You definately get to help people but many of us also see people at thier worse, when they are sick and vulnerable. And mean and nasty. But it can also be phenomenally rewarding.

I am incredibly thankful that I do what I do and I cant imagine doing anything else. However, I spent a significant amount of time making *sure* that medicine was what I wanted to do and went in with eyes open about the good and the bad.

 

[kas23]

Well put, it's an illusion of fame and riches. Being a doctor, doesn't make you rich, famous, happier, it just makes you a doctor. It's a job like any other job. But the difference is that it is really hyped up and the prevailing stereotype of a doctor is of a rich, well respected competent professional who commands respect of those around him. While this may be the case, this is only at the end of the road, once you become attending and is hardly the norm for every attending. I think if anything it is a glamorized view of the profession. Only the good aspects are portrayed, while the bad and the ugly are conveniently tucked away. Just like in any profession there are good and bad doctors. The difference is that bad doctors, can seriously hurt you.

I think this post is very interesting. It speaks of glamour, respect, and professionalism. It makes you wonder where this stereotype came from and why it is still around. It was probably true at one point, back in the 70's or earlier, but it seems like everyday, this "stereotype" is becoming more of a "stereotype." But, who is perpetuating it? I don't think it is the everyday patient. The everyday patient doesn't respect us and wants everything for nothing. I think it is the "profession" itself that is perpetuating this stereotype. In med school, they always preached and preached to us about professionalism and how we should act and "look the part." But I think society has passed us by. I wonder if this "professionalism" is still needed? Are we just living in the past by preaching the young doctors about how everyone looks up to us and respects us? This is simply not true anymore. Are we shooting ourself in the foot? Maybe we can become better, more efficient, more "on the level of the patient" if we just ditched "the act?"

 

[Amxcvbcv]

I want to be a doctor because I want to help people. I don't care about the money. As long as I'm helping people then I will be completely happy. It's not just a job, it's my "calling".

As one of my undergraduate professors said, if you want to really help people, be a garbage collector. You get to help just as many people as most doctors, and you don't have to give up your nights studying.

Want to help people? Great! Stand in line behind my waiter, flight attendant, trash collector, preacher, nurse, custodian, teacher, politician, etc.

I think on some level it is just a selfish desire of mine to be a doctor. I'll get to work in hospitals, exercise my brain, work with talented and devoted people, and on top of it all they're going to pay me to do it (and pay me well)!

 

[humuhumu]

As one of my undergraduate professors said, if you want to really help people, be a garbage collector. You get to help just as many people as most doctors, and you don't have to give up your nights studying.

Want to help people? Great! Stand in line behind my waiter, flight attendant, trash collector, preacher, nurse, custodian, teacher, politician, etc.

I think on some level it is just a selfish desire of mine to be a doctor. I'll get to work in hospitals, exercise my brain, work with talented and devoted people, and on top of it all they're going to pay me to do it (and pay me well)!

Did you tell that to the admissions committees too?

Seriously I think you're right and there's nothing wrong with it. We all want to help people but a career in medicine comes with many additional benefits that other service professions can't touch...