If you could do it over would you

[DW]

Extremely boring, though, you might spring into action 10% of the time, but most of the time you do jack and sit in your chair writing down VS and what meds are administered during the surgery. Now surgeons they do all the fun stuff

Well, here exactly lies the point Leukocyte was making. One reason some people end up unhappy is they end up picking a field not based on what fits them best or what makes them happiest, but what they think or have been told they "should" do. Some people love surgery, some love rads, some love anesthesia, we all have our different tastes...but the worst is when someone gets convinced they don't want to go into a certain field because it isn't "real medicine" or some bullspit to that effect. I remember talking to a pathology resident recently who had dropped out of a highly respected medicine program and called it the worst year of her life because she had basically guilted into "working with patients".

I think there is so much variety in medicine that no matter how much one overall hated med school, if you pick the right specialty you can find some that reasonably approximates the optimal career for you. Easier said than done, of course

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[harkkam]

I've been following this thread and there is alot of useful information. I am a undergraduate student contemplating whether or not to go into medical school.

To be honest nothing is as green as we may feel it is. Doctors don't make millions and MBA graduates dont make millions, they both work long hours and so do lawyers who also have very tough days. Bottom line there is always something to complain about but Medicine does tend to come out a little better when it comes to pay and hours in comparison to the other professions.

When it comes to the patients and helping people, like somebody already said you can help people in other ways if you wanted to and not give up everything.

My first question which I feel I should ask myself is "How much money do you want to make and how much do you want to sacrifice?"

If you want to make more money than an average MBA or Lawyer will then go into medicine.

If you dont want to work the long ardious hour during residency then do psychology get a PHD.

All lawyers and MBA and doctors who make over 100k have to work hard but lawyers work very long hours and you need to get into a T1 school.

MBA's must graduate from the top ten of their class and work hundreds of hours.

On an average doctors make the most when you stack an average lawyer and a average mBA graduate and a average doctor.

----------------------------------------------------------------

My main question to this board is "HOW much do I have to give up to be a doctor?"

Do i get to party and have fun and enjoy my life, hangout on weekends, have a beer, go to a club and party or will my life be stuck in books.

What was your expereince in Med school like?

 

[FloridaMD]

sacrament,

why not if u dont mind me asking

He never claimed that he was a doctor!

 

[8744]

Hey. We need to retire this thread. It's giving them the willies over at the pre-allopathic forum.

 

[Vox Animo]

Hey. We need to retire this thread. It's giving them the willies over at the pre-allopathic forum.

Isn't that the whole purpose?

 

[NRAI2001]

Isn't that the whole purpose?

Ya, I thought this thread has been very informative.

 

[Vox Animo]

Ya, I thought this thread has been very informative.

Many issues were addressed in this thread that i wish i had known about much earlier in the application process.

 

[TheOneandOnly]

great thread

 

[Richie Truxillo]

I enjoy this thread too! It's giving me a big heads up!

Thanks for your contributions to this thread! Keep it alive

 

[soulbrother]

Hi everyone.

First I'd like to say that this has been an excellent post, too bad I didn't discover it earlier.Like to add my story.

The dl : I'm a norwegian who just started MS1 in norway. I just completed a bachelors degree in actuarial science(!), but was curious about med school, applied, and once word got around that I'd been accepted, since spots are rather competitive, and I was unsure, I was sort of preassured into resigning my old part time job, and relocate in order to begin.(I know, pathetic, wuss written all over me)

That beeing said, I convinced myself that I'd probably quit, but just maybe, it might be fun. I also happened to suffer from the notorious "pre-med starry eyed syndrome" during a brief span of time.

Starting MS1 has been an incredible experience, and an oportunity, to delve into another world. That beeing said, I was in limbo of continuing or returning to actuarial science when I stumbled upon this post.

In the end I came to grips with the fact that I do not want to submit my spare time and peace of mind in order to touch $400k.

My original idea was to go actuarial -> med in order to help people. But alas, no matter where ya go, it's all about the dinero.

That beeing said, I'm addicted to learning new things, chemistry rocks, but biochem and alot of biology bores the hell out of me. I started college with a dream of doing 3d programming, now where the heck am I .

Did i mention that I'm type A? ( oh I'm stressin' like a mutha).

An important element to add to the equation :
Med school in norway is six years, but less intensive than in the states.Norwegian MS students are notorious for heavy partying and drinking, and I've done nothing but since starting.
Also, it is COMPLETELY FREE. Yes, our government funds the entire shabang. I get to study medicine six years, and only have to worry about the expenses for the roof over my head, and food on my table.

I'm single, 26, and have saved a good deal of capital from my old job. And could even get a part time job on the side.Also, relocating has been excellent, after spending most of my life in the same city, relocating has been an invigorating experience. Thus I can complete MS1, with the sole object of personal growth in mind.

Thus I'm looking at starting residency six years from now, debt free.
However, I've NEVER worked within the health sector, EVER. Yup, that's a biggie, I know that now. I should've volunteered, shadowed, etc. Not gone for the glamour and the prestige, as have been said it's really not there.

I've considered several specialties, might've gone for surgery, but it appears that it leaves no spare time.

I've seen how a friend became brainwashed from before starting MS1 to after his first year. Before he was "no, it's not about helping people, but you make big bucks", now it's more like "I'm on a holy mission".

I look at the enthusiastic people in my class, and I can't help but feel sorry for them.

My take is that the medical profession has declined, and will continue to decline for quite a while, as the GOD to job shift continues.

I've got excellent career prospects in actuarial science, and the grass is always greener.. Six more years .. yikes. Although some doc's out there ARE happy, I'm not willing to put in the effort to find out.

To think that I started med school with the added bonus of getting chicks in mind ,(how many girls have ever heard of actuarial science), but the only woman I've slept with since entering called me a coward, and hated my guts for studying medicine

My biggest regret might be that I declined starring in the norwegian version of "beauty and the geek" in order to start med school. Now that would've been a blast.

Too bad that medicine turned out not to be the solution to all my problems.
Sounds like a shrink might be what the doctor prescribes.

 

[8744]

Hi everyone.

... but the only woman I've slept with since entering called me a coward, and hated my guts for studying medicine...

I did not see that one coming.

 

[NRAI2001]

Hi everyone.

First I'd like to say that this has been an excellent post, too bad I didn't discover it earlier.Like to add my story.

The dl : I'm a norwegian who just started MS1 in norway. I just completed a bachelors degree in actuarial science(!), but was curious about med school, applied, and once word got around that I'd been accepted, since spots are rather competitive, and I was unsure, I was sort of preassured into resigning my old part time job, and relocate in order to begin.(I know, pathetic, wuss written all over me)

That beeing said, I convinced myself that I'd probably quit, but just maybe, it might be fun. I also happened to suffer from the notorious "pre-med starry eyed syndrome" during a brief span of time.

Starting MS1 has been an incredible experience, and an oportunity, to delve into another world. That beeing said, I was in limbo of continuing or returning to actuarial science when I stumbled upon this post.

In the end I came to grips with the fact that I do not want to submit my spare time and peace of mind in order to touch $400k.

My original idea was to go actuarial -> med in order to help people. But alas, no matter where ya go, it's all about the dinero.

That beeing said, I'm addicted to learning new things, chemistry rocks, but biochem and alot of biology bores the hell out of me. I started college with a dream of doing 3d programming, now where the heck am I .

Did i mention that I'm type A? ( oh I'm stressin' like a mutha).

An important element to add to the equation :
Med school in norway is six years, but less intensive than in the states.Norwegian MS students are notorious for heavy partying and drinking, and I've done nothing but since starting.
Also, it is COMPLETELY FREE. Yes, our government funds the entire shabang. I get to study medicine six years, and only have to worry about the expenses for the roof over my head, and food on my table.

I'm single, 26, and have saved a good deal of capital from my old job. And could even get a part time job on the side.Also, relocating has been excellent, after spending most of my life in the same city, relocating has been an invigorating experience. Thus I can complete MS1, with the sole object of personal growth in mind.

Thus I'm looking at starting residency six years from now, debt free.
However, I've NEVER worked within the health sector, EVER. Yup, that's a biggie, I know that now. I should've volunteered, shadowed, etc. Not gone for the glamour and the prestige, as have been said it's really not there.

I've considered several specialties, might've gone for surgery, but it appears that it leaves no spare time.

I've seen how a friend became brainwashed from before starting MS1 to after his first year. Before he was "no, it's not about helping people, but you make big bucks", now it's more like "I'm on a holy mission".

I look at the enthusiastic people in my class, and I can't help but feel sorry for them.

My take is that the medical profession has declined, and will continue to decline for quite a while, as the GOD to job shift continues.

I've got excellent career prospects in actuarial science, and the grass is always greener.. Six more years .. yikes. Although some doc's out there ARE happy, I'm not willing to put in the effort to find out.

To think that I started med school with the added bonus of getting chicks in mind ,(how many girls have ever heard of actuarial science), but the only woman I've slept with since entering called me a coward, and hated my guts for studying medicine

My biggest regret might be that I declined starring in the norwegian version of "beauty and the geek" in order to start med school. Now that would've been a blast.

Too bad that medicine turned out not to be the solution to all my problems.
Sounds like a shrink might be what the doctor prescribes.

So you coiuld have starred in Beauty and the geek? Would you have been the beauty? the geek? haha

 

[soulbrother]

So you coiuld have starred in Beauty and the geek? Would you have been the beauty? the geek? haha

Bizarre as it may seem, I'm a geek who looks like a rock star. So I probably could've done either one.

No children, I'm not signing autographs....

(You should thank me(?) for allowing this thread to wander light years away from the topic)

 

[NRAI2001]

Bizarre as it may seem, I'm a geek who looks like a rock star. So I probably could've done either one.

No children, I'm not signing autographs....

(You should thank me(?) for allowing this thread to wander light years away from the topic)

Where did you go to undergrad?

 

[dutchman]

WOW This thread started a year ago. This has to be the most charged topic I have ever seen. I am 70% sure I am not digging this whole thing

 

[billydoc]

Hey. We need to retire this thread. It's giving them the willies over at the pre-allopathic forum.

No, No please keep those posts coming. Some posts are way off topic, but most are very informative. Thank You all.

 

[gujuDoc]

No, No please keep those posts coming. Some posts are way off topic, but most are very informative. Thank You all.

My friend you do not know Panda Bear very well if you truly thought he was being serious.

I'm 99.999999999% sure he was being SARCASTIC!!!!!

After all, before he got into the field he was in he was as much in the negative about medicne on this very thread and many others.

You ought to read his blog too. It really tells it like it is. Good and bad.

 

[8744]

My friend you do not know Panda Bear very well if you truly thought he was being serious.

I'm 99.999999999% sure he was being SARCASTIC!!!!!

After all, before he got into the field he was in he was as much in the negative about medicne on this very thread and many others.

You ought to read his blog too. It really tells it like it is. Good and bad.

Yeah. I was just kidding. I enjoy this thread and the effect it has in the small world of SDN where there is so much burning passion for medicine that it's a wonder we don't hear about more random cases of spontaneous human combustion.

And now I can confess that I hated medicine last year and until I matched out of the Speciaty That is Doing Just Great, Nothing to Worry About, at a certain big East Coast medical center which we will call "Earl" to avoid giving offense to The Chosen, into Emergency Medicine I regretted mightily my decision to go to medical school. But it's cool now.

Now I'm glad I did but given the huge debt I've incurred, the eight years of lost and reduced income, as well as all the mountains of chicken**** I've waded through....well...if I knew then what I know now I wouldn't have done it.

The "go to guy" on this topic is Sacrament, by the way.

 

[Attila]

The "go to guy" on this topic is Sacrament, by the way.

Nah, that guy's a whiny little bitch.

I have to say, though, that I like this thread. I'm happy in medicine but I find it interesting to hear from others who aren't. At very least it helps me to understand what was going on with many of those I've encountered along the way - residents, students, attendings etc. who I've found to be inexplicably bitter, foul and disspirited. If I'd have read this years ago it would have served as a useful head's up.

 

[Elysium]

Nah, that guy's a whiny little bitch.

Hey, why don't you go **** yourself?

With 16 posts, I'm not really sure how you can classify anyone on an annoymous message board. But since I happen to live with this "whiny bitch", who just came home after 30 hours on call, I think you can shove your assesment up your ass. This guy works his ass off and never fvcking complains. He does his work, he sees his patients, he gets sht done, and he goes home. He never bitches about work, he just does it. Not that it's any of your business, douche, because there are a shtload of unhappy people in medicine, especially docs. It's a crap life, especially in primary care. If your head is totally up your own ass and you don't ever communicate with other docs, maybe you haven't figured that out yet. Maybe it's a news flash that 4 years of med school, 3 years of training minimum with sht hours, being $200,000 in debt, declining compensation, declining respect from the community, declining medicare reimbursment, a culture of hazing/belittling among our own, drug seeking patients, litigious patients, high divorce rates, personal sacrifice, familial sacrifice, relationship sacrifice, chronic exhaustion, lack of freedom, lack of mobility (you're basically tied to one part of the country once you establish practice), difficulty taking time off, etc. etc. may be reasons to be a "whiny little bitch". Or maybe that should all be ignored and we should all just grin and bear it because god forbid we might be considered a "whiny little bitch".

 

[Leo I]

Hey, why don't you go **** yourself?

With 16 posts, I'm not really sure how you can classify anyone on an annoymous message board. But since I happen to live with this "whiny bitch", who just came home after 30 hours on call, I think you can shove your assesment up your ass. This guy works his ass off and never fvcking complains. He does his work, he sees his patients, he gets sht done, and he goes home. He never bitches about work, he just does it. Not that it's any of your business, douche, because there are a shtload of unhappy people in medicine, especially docs. It's a crap life, especially in primary care. If your head is totally up your own ass and you don't ever communicate with other docs, maybe you haven't figured that out yet. Maybe it's a news flash that 4 years of med school, 3 years of training minimum with sht hours, being $200,000 in debt, declining compensation, declining respect from the community, declining medicare reimbursment, a culture of hazing/belittling among our own, drug seeking patients, litigious patients, high divorce rates, personal sacrifice, familial sacrifice, relationship sacrifice, chronic exhaustion, lack of freedom, lack of mobility (you're basically tied to one part of the country once you establish practice), difficulty taking time off, etc. etc. may be reasons to be a "whiny little bitch". Or maybe that should all be ignored and we should all just grin and bear it because god forbid we might be considered a "whiny little bitch".

Is there anything you actually do like about medicine? Medicine is definately a hard life. But I don't agree that it's a crap life. I find it very rewarding. Assuming that I'm experiencing the same things as you (you're a doctor right?) how could it be that I find the negatives to outweighed by the positives and you don't? It doesn't seem to be entirely objective does it? From what I've read here I gather that quite a few of the "medicine is intolerably crap" camp have had previous careers outside medicine that they were also dissatisfied with. When you find yourself dissatisfied by many different careers then just maybe the problem is with your expectations and character. All careers are tough. Very tough. Unless you are independently wealthy life is going to be hard. If that's not what you expect then it doesn't surprize me that you'd be dissapointed by what you find. Hardship doesn't make life "crap". How you react to it might.

In life, adversity is gaurenteed. Misery is optional.

 

[Saabdriver]

Medicine does tend to come out a little better when it comes to pay and hours in comparison to the other professions.

If you want to make more money than an average MBA or Lawyer will then go into medicine.

You said you were an undergrad. How the heck can you say that medicine does better in hours and pay than lawyers and MBAs? Do you know any lawyers or MBAs who MUST work weekends and overnight consistently (i.e. compulsory not by choice)? Docs are fairly compensated but I would not nearly be so sure that the mean lifetime compensation per hour is greater for MDs than JDs or MBAs.

 

[dutchman]

Is there anything you actually do like about medicine? Medicine is definately a hard life. But I don't agree that it's a crap life. I find it very rewarding. Assuming that I'm experiencing the same things as you (you're a doctor right?) how could it be that I find the negatives to outweighed by the positives and you don't? It doesn't seem to be entirely objective does it? From what I've read here I gather that quite a few of the "medicine is intolerably crap" camp have had previous careers outside medicine that they were also dissatisfied with. When you find yourself dissatisfied by many different careers then just maybe the problem is with your expectations and character. All careers are tough. Very tough. Unless you are independently wealthy life is going to be hard. If that's not what you expect then it doesn't surprize me that you'd be dissapointed by what you find. Hardship doesn't make life "crap". How you react to it might.

In life, adversity is gaurenteed. Misery is optional.

Yeah dude the grass is not always greener on the other side.I am an engineer and my company is presently identifying "redundant positions" which simply means some people are about to get layed off. Try working under these conditions and you will understand the meaning of crap life. In fact If I am caught on SDN right now my position could easily be labelled "redundant". I don't know what goes on in medicine but at least I understand you guys have job security(i.e your jobs are not being shipped overseas to India etc). Not to mention that I work about 68hrs a week and I am now required to be on call once a week. I am not sure I will make a good doctor but If I decide not to go to med-school, it will not be because I think there are better things to do out here, because I know I can get screwed in any profession at anytime.

 

[veo1]

I don't know what goes on in medicine but at least I understand you guys have job security(i.e your jobs are not being shipped overseas to India etc).

Not necessarily true. Go check the radiology forums. Not to mention the threat of advanced practice nursing/PA's, etc. Bottom line, hospitals want to cut costs (i guess i don't blame them?). A lot of unknowns in medicine now and in my opinion its not time to panic....yet...

because I know I can get screwed in any profession at anytime

Medicine is no different. Keep that in mind before you consider giving up
7+yrs of your life and taking on $100,000+ in debt.

 

[Taurus]

Yeah dude the grass is not always greener on the other side.

As somebody who has had a chance to see both sides of the fence, I can say, surprise, surprise, that there are pro's and con's for both sides. If I had to do it all again, I would not have gone into medicine. But that's because of my personal situation. I left a very good career when I left for school. I was making 200k+, barely worked 40 hours per week, barely breaking a sweat at work, traveled a lot but had a great time in the cities I went to. Now, I make no money, I actually have to dip into my savings to pay for the massive cost of school, study all the time, not having as much fun as before. If I were a recent college graduate with a Biology degree, then med school would be a great pathway. The advice I would give someone contemplating the switch is that if you have an impractical degree, crappy career, and little chance of improving your lot then consider med school. If you have good practical degree and decent career, perhaps the problem is the job you are in. Instead of working in the private sector, perhaps consider working for the federal government where there is much better job security. Med school is too much work, too expensive, and too much of your life just because you want job security. There are easier alternatives that you should explore first.

 

[mackie]

Taurus, what did you do before?

 

[8744]

Hey, why don't you go **** yourself?

With 16 posts, I'm not really sure how you can classify anyone on an annoymous message board. But since I happen to live with this "whiny bitch", who just came home after 30 hours on call, I think you can shove your assesment up your ass. This guy works his ass off and never fvcking complains. He does his work, he sees his patients, he gets sht done, and he goes home. He never bitches about work, he just does it. Not that it's any of your business, douche, because there are a shtload of unhappy people in medicine, especially docs. It's a crap life, especially in primary care. If your head is totally up your own ass and you don't ever communicate with other docs, maybe you haven't figured that out yet. Maybe it's a news flash that 4 years of med school, 3 years of training minimum with sht hours, being $200,000 in debt, declining compensation, declining respect from the community, declining medicare reimbursment, a culture of hazing/belittling among our own, drug seeking patients, litigious patients, high divorce rates, personal sacrifice, familial sacrifice, relationship sacrifice, chronic exhaustion, lack of freedom, lack of mobility (you're basically tied to one part of the country once you establish practice), difficulty taking time off, etc. etc. may be reasons to be a "whiny little bitch". Or maybe that should all be ignored and we should all just grin and bear it because god forbid we might be considered a "whiny little bitch".

Dude, you rule. I particularly agree with the section I bolded. I like medicine, don't get me wrong, but there's a reason why there is so little idealism left in anybody about the first month of intern year. I just want some of those who have not yet committed to this career to consider that we can't all be whiney little bitches. It's not all sweetness and light.

 

[SobeGekko]

HI

I frequently hear practicing physicians, even the ones who somewhat enjoy what they do, say that they would not do it again if given the chance. Im currentlyin the process of deciding wether or not to go to med school. I was just wondering how you residents feel about this, would you do it over again
thanks

This is a very interesting thread! Lots of tremendous insight into medical training that is right on the money with reality, but since I've left medicine, I'll add my own anecdotal story to answer the original post above.

I'm 28, and went to med school straight out of college, then completed about 1.5 years at an unopposed, community based Family medicine residency in the family medicine friendly upper midwest. I then quit, contemplated what I wanted to do with my life, a year has passed and now I have applied and been accepted to pharmacy school beginning fall 2007.

For me, I went into med school straight from undergrad with what I consider in retrospect to be naivety about medicine. I was good at and enjoyed science and wanted a decent paying career where I could help people so I applied to med school and got in. I was willing to work hard and put up with the rigor with the thought that the career on the other end of the training was worth it. I won't get into the harsh culture of medical training as has been described at length on this thread accept to say that it is very real.

My residency experience was quite different than those at an academic center. Sure my hours were grueling but being the only residency in town, we residents had direct access to attendings of all specialties. Since they weren't constantly teaching students/residents, most of them were pleased to teach us. Our faculty member generally were very supportive of us and the atmosphere was very collegial. Many residents had growing families and maternity/paternity leave was encouraged. Needless to say, my residency was quite different from most. I hated the way medicine was practiced at academic centers and seeing medicine in a down to earth community setting was refreshing. The interesting part was once a lot of the crappy treatment was removed, I began to realize that it wasn't the training that I hated but tolerated, it was the practice of medicine itself that I disliked.

As physician recruiters began contacting me and I started considering practice opportunities post-residency, I realized I didn't like the fundamental tasks of my job. Basically I disliked the uncertainty and subjectivity in elucidating meaninful patient complaints, trying to make diagnoses, managing unpredictable patient courses, being on call etc. There was a lot less basic science to clinical medicine than I expected and I missed doing calculations and using tenets of basic science to solve medical problems. In short, I liked the science behind the medicine but felt the practice of medicine had very little to do with the science. It was more about recognizing signs, symptoms, assuaging patient concerns, etc. This is root of why I am changing to a career in pharmacy. Helping design and implement drug regimens, managing dosing schedules, helping adjust formulareis and similar tasks seem much more up my alley.

Financially, the debt can trap you in medicine and that feeling sucks! Add the 7 yr minimum time committment and in retrospect, I should have done a better job finding out what I was getting into. Luckily, my wife is also a doc. We met in undergrad, went to med school together, couples matched into the same program so yes, she's being a sugar mamma for the time being and I'm taking care of our 1 yr old daughter until pharm school starts.

Any bitterness I had toward medicine has subsided over the past year. I'm happy with the new direction of my life. I wouldn't have my current perspective without going through what I've gone through and wouldn't be as convinced about pharmacy without my medical experience. Also, being a doc can be a great career. Many people, including my wife, love it. She even really enjoys residency!

Anyway, thought I should contribute to this thread.

 

[sacrament]

I haven't checked in on this thread in awhile. I have no particularly new thoughts on the subject, but since today I actually got home from work on the same day that I originally left, I'll take a moment to summarize two of my long-pondered viewpoints.

With respect to medicine being a Calling.
While I believe that medicine can be a "calling", I find it no more likely to be a "calling" than being an engineer, hotel clerk or taxi cab driver. You name a job, and there are people with that job who feel it's their calling. I worked at a fast food place when I was a teenager, and there was a middle-aged woman working there with the same menial job, making the same minimum-wage money as 16-year-old sacrament, and she f**king loved it. She loved making tacos, she loved cleaning the grill, she loved talking to the customers, she loved all of it and wouldn't have traded that sh1tty job for anything. So I find it grating that folks in medicine think they have a monopoly on having a Calling. There's this crazy bullsh1t all-or-nothing mentality in the field. Medicine can't be a job, it's gotta be a Calling!

I'll tell you something, the best job I ever had was being a fork truck driver... it was relaxing, it was decent money, I could listen to the radio all day... it was a decent, decent job. But I sure as sh1t didn't think it was my calling, and if I happened to mention at lunch break, to my fellow mill workers, that I didn't always find my job terribly fulfilling, that I sort of wanted something more out of life, and that driving a forktruck wasn't my Calling... well, nobody I worked with had the level of mental deficiency that it would have required to label those comments as whining, complaining, being a giant bawling *****, etc. And yet try making the same comments in a Medicine Milieu! Holy Smoking Jesus, you're the world's biggest lazy douchebag! You're obviously a completely miserable human being who should be on suicide watch.

This is just another example of how Medicine is not the Real World. In the Real World, you go out with the guys after work and everybody bitches about how they're overworked and underpaid and then you go home and bang your girlfriend and watch some TV and smoke a joint or whatever, and life goes on. In the Medicine World, you suppress your feelings that maybe there's trouble in Paradise, you bury your misgivings, you silence your doubts, you silently go for 24+ hours without food, you never say a goddamn word about how you're overworked and underpaid, because this ain't a job! It's a Calling! Go f**k yourself if you're not 100% satisfied! Well I've had a lot of jobs, and I have to say, this is the jobbiest job I've ever had in my life. If this isn't a job, then being a inner city parole officer isn't a job.

Is it horrible? Of course it isn't horrible. It's... whatever. It's "80 hours a week" ("80 hours a week" must always be securely placed within quotation marks) of frequently menial, often boring, occasionally interesting, frequently worthless, sometimes meaningful, always stressful work. If you still have scraps of idealism hanging off of you, the sheer volume of work to be done will leave you with little time to ponder them. I don't think people in medicine lose their idealism so much as they forget to put it on their daily check list.

With respect to idealism.
Medicine is a incredibly suboptimal job in which to practice idealism. You want to help people, make a difference in their lives? Yeah, you can do that in Medicine, sure. Probably less often than you'd imagine, but it happens. But if you don't go into Medicine, whoever takes your place has a decent change of doing the job just as well as you, and maybe better. There is absolutely no shortage of people willing and able to do this job--the world won't suffer one iota if you decide to forego medical school. Sorry. But what about people willing to do hardcore social work? Working on literacy, poverty, sanitation in developing countries? Working on environmental issues? Working with grassroots political campaigns? What about the gazillion things you could do to help this world move forward that nobody wants to do? If you don't step in and go help build that water treatment plant in Niger, maybe nobody else will. Now there's where some idealism could do some good. Leave the medicine for the more mercenary of us, who just want a steady job with good pay and aren't willing to live in Section 8 housing for the rest of our lives. Either that or STFU about idealism and get real.

 

[veo1]

Med school is too much work, too expensive, and too much of your life just because you want job security. There are easier alternatives that you should explore first.

Well said

And to sacrament...Brilliant post!

 

[Sanman]

Sacrament awesome post!!!

Everybody else, welcome to life!

 

[dutchman]

The good thing about this thread is that it lowers(actually erases) any positive expectation anyone could have of medicine, thus preventing eventual disappointment. I recomend medschools make reading this thread a requirement for admission

 

[NRAI2001]

This is a very interesting thread! Lots of tremendous insight into medical training that is right on the money with reality, but since I've left medicine, I'll add my own anecdotal story to answer the original post above.

I'm 28, and went to med school straight out of college, then completed about 1.5 years at an unopposed, community based Family medicine residency in the family medicine friendly upper midwest. I then quit, contemplated what I wanted to do with my life, a year has passed and now I have applied and been accepted to pharmacy school beginning fall 2007.

For me, I went into med school straight from undergrad with what I consider in retrospect to be naivety about medicine. I was good at and enjoyed science and wanted a decent paying career where I could help people so I applied to med school and got in. I was willing to work hard and put up with the rigor with the thought that the career on the other end of the training was worth it. I won't get into the harsh culture of medical training as has been described at length on this thread accept to say that it is very real.

My residency experience was quite different than those at an academic center. Sure my hours were grueling but being the only residency in town, we residents had direct access to attendings of all specialties. Since they weren't constantly teaching students/residents, most of them were pleased to teach us. Our faculty member generally were very supportive of us and the atmosphere was very collegial. Many residents had growing families and maternity/paternity leave was encouraged. Needless to say, my residency was quite different from most. I hated the way medicine was practiced at academic centers and seeing medicine in a down to earth community setting was refreshing. The interesting part was once a lot of the crappy treatment was removed, I began to realize that it wasn't the training that I hated but tolerated, it was the practice of medicine itself that I disliked.

As physician recruiters began contacting me and I started considering practice opportunities post-residency, I realized I didn't like the fundamental tasks of my job. Basically I disliked the uncertainty and subjectivity in elucidating meaninful patient complaints, trying to make diagnoses, managing unpredictable patient courses, being on call etc. There was a lot less basic science to clinical medicine than I expected and I missed doing calculations and using tenets of basic science to solve medical problems. In short, I liked the science behind the medicine but felt the practice of medicine had very little to do with the science. It was more about recognizing signs, symptoms, assuaging patient concerns, etc. This is root of why I am changing to a career in pharmacy. Helping design and implement drug regimens, managing dosing schedules, helping adjust formulareis and similar tasks seem much more up my alley.

Financially, the debt can trap you in medicine and that feeling sucks! Add the 7 yr minimum time committment and in retrospect, I should have done a better job finding out what I was getting into. Luckily, my wife is also a doc. We met in undergrad, went to med school together, couples matched into the same program so yes, she's being a sugar mamma for the time being and I'm taking care of our 1 yr old daughter until pharm school starts.

Any bitterness I had toward medicine has subsided over the past year. I'm happy with the new direction of my life. I wouldn't have my current perspective without going through what I've gone through and wouldn't be as convinced about pharmacy without my medical experience. Also, being a doc can be a great career. Many people, including my wife, love it. She even really enjoys residency!

Anyway, thought I should contribute to this thread.

Thats the most ******ed thing I ve ever heard. Pharm school is not your answer. I think you have other issues.

You say you wanted something more conceptual and you blame the medical field for not being conceptual, yet you choose family practice in the middle west as your residency, obviously its not really gonna be very conceptual.

There are other fields that use equations, calculations...etc more than FP. Fields like pain management, neurology, rad onc, neurosurg....or medical research may have been better fits. Pharmacists dont really do anything too exciting either. My friend is a clinical pharmacist and she doesnt really do much more than suggest medications to doctors. I think yoiu need to think this through, instead of just jumping back into school. If you really want that academic environment then maybe research at a University will be good.

 

[asdfaa]

I haven't checked in on this thread in awhile. I have no particularly new thoughts on the subject, but since today I actually got home from work on the same day that I originally left, I'll take a moment to summarize two of my long-pondered viewpoints.

With respect to medicine being a Calling.
While I believe that medicine can be a "calling", I find it no more likely to be a "calling" than being an engineer, hotel clerk or taxi cab driver. You name a job, and there are people with that job who feel it's their calling. I worked at a fast food place when I was a teenager, and there was a middle-aged woman working there with the same menial job, making the same minimum-wage money as 16-year-old sacrament, and she f**king loved it. She loved making tacos, she loved cleaning the grill, she loved talking to the customers, she loved all of it and wouldn't have traded that sh1tty job for anything. So I find it grating that folks in medicine think they have a monopoly on having a Calling. There's this crazy bullsh1t all-or-nothing mentality in the field. Medicine can't be a job, it's gotta be a Calling!

I'll tell you something, the best job I ever had was being a fork truck driver... it was relaxing, it was decent money, I could listen to the radio all day... it was a decent, decent job. But I sure as sh1t didn't think it was my calling, and if I happened to mention at lunch break, to my fellow mill workers, that I didn't always find my job terribly fulfilling, that I sort of wanted something more out of life, and that driving a forktruck wasn't my Calling... well, nobody I worked with had the level of mental deficiency that it would have required to label those comments as whining, complaining, being a giant bawling *****, etc. And yet try making the same comments in a Medicine Milieu! Holy Smoking Jesus, you're the world's biggest lazy douchebag! You're obviously a completely miserable human being who should be on suicide watch.

This is just another example of how Medicine is not the Real World. In the Real World, you go out with the guys after work and everybody bitches about how they're overworked and underpaid and then you go home and bang your girlfriend and watch some TV and smoke a joint or whatever, and life goes on. In the Medicine World, you suppress your feelings that maybe there's trouble in Paradise, you bury your misgivings, you silence your doubts, you silently go for 24+ hours without food, you never say a goddamn word about how you're overworked and underpaid, because this ain't a job! It's a Calling! Go f**k yourself if you're not 100% satisfied! Well I've had a lot of jobs, and I have to say, this is the jobbiest job I've ever had in my life. If this isn't a job, then being a inner city parole officer isn't a job.

Is it horrible? Of course it isn't horrible. It's... whatever. It's "80 hours a week" ("80 hours a week" must always be securely placed within quotation marks) of frequently menial, often boring, occasionally interesting, frequently worthless, sometimes meaningful, always stressful work. If you still have scraps of idealism hanging off of you, the sheer volume of work to be done will leave you with little time to ponder them. I don't think people in medicine lose their idealism so much as they forget to put it on their daily check list.

With respect to idealism.
Medicine is a incredibly suboptimal job in which to practice idealism. You want to help people, make a difference in their lives? Yeah, you can do that in Medicine, sure. Probably less often than you'd imagine, but it happens. But if you don't go into Medicine, whoever takes your place has a decent change of doing the job just as well as you, and maybe better. There is absolutely no shortage of people willing and able to do this job--the world won't suffer one iota if you decide to forego medical school. Sorry. But what about people willing to do hardcore social work? Working on literacy, poverty, sanitation in developing countries? Working on environmental issues? Working with grassroots political campaigns? What about the gazillion things you could do to help this world move forward that nobody wants to do? If you don't step in and go help build that water treatment plant in Niger, maybe nobody else will. Now there's where some idealism could do some good. Leave the medicine for the more mercenary of us, who just want a steady job with good pay and aren't willing to live in Section 8 housing for the rest of our lives. Either that or STFU about idealism and get real.

Eh, yes Medicine is a job. It's a very hard job. I knew that going into it. Practically every doctor I met when I was considering it reinforced the fact. But it's a job that I enjoy. I probably wouldn't enjoy a forklift job, though that's obviously something you enjoyed. We're all different. I like being busy. I like the fast pace. I enjoy the challange of being stretched to my limit. I'm not very idealistic. I'm not in medicine "to help people". Sure I have a good bedside manner and know how to gain style points by giving a new twist to the usual palliative cliches. But I'm only doing this for me. I just like it.

I can easily see how if you didn't get enjoyment from it, Medicine could be a living hell. If that's the case for you then get out if you can. If you can't then, too bad. You have my sympathy.

 

[gujuDoc]

Thats the most ******ed thing I ve ever heard. Pharm school is not your answer. I think you have other issues.

You say you wanted something more conceptual and you blame the medical field for not being conceptual, yet you choose family practice in the middle west as your residency, obviously its not really gonna be very conceptual.

There are other fields that use equations, calculations...etc more than FP. Fields like pain management, neurology, rad onc, neurosurg....or medical research may have been better fits. Pharmacists dont really do anything too exciting either. My friend is a clinical pharmacist and she doesnt really do much more than suggest medications to doctors. I think yoiu need to think this through, instead of just jumping back into school. If you really want that academic environment then maybe research at a University will be good.

No offense, but there's a lot of repetition in other fields that you mentioned as well. Besides what if this person didn't have the board scores or whatever to get into one of his real fields of interest?? This is what almost happened to Panda Bear until he reapplied for residency and did whatever he had to do to get into his desired field of medicine.

That said while I agree with the fact that research or engineering is probably the challenge the poster you quoted is looking for. We really don't know much about the poster who you quoted or their situation so to deem something as ******ed without more information is a bit pushing it too far.

If they find happiness in pharmacy that's their business. If they still aren't happy it doesn't affect us one way or another.

 

[Von Hohenheim]

Eh, yes Medicine is a job. It's a very hard job. I knew that going into it. Practically every doctor I met when I was considering it reinforced the fact. But it's a job that I enjoy. I probably wouldn't enjoy a forklift job, though that's obviously something you enjoyed. We're all different. I like being busy. I like the fast pace. I enjoy the challange of being stretched to my limit. I'm not very idealistic. I'm not in medicine "to help people". Sure I have a good bedside manner and know how to gain style points by giving a new twist to the usual palliative cliches. But I'm only doing this for me. I just like it.

I can easily see how if you didn't get enjoyment from it, Medicine could be a living hell. If that's the case for you then get out if you can. If you can't then, too bad. You have my sympathy.

Idiot. Havn't you heard. You can't just like your job as a doctor. The only reason anyone could be satisfied with their medical career is either that they consider it to be some mystical calling or that they're blindly chasing after naive ideals. You "just like" your job. What a load of BS.

 

[NRAI2001]

No offense, but there's a lot of repetition in other fields that you mentioned as well. Besides what if this person didn't have the board scores or whatever to get into one of his real fields of interest?? This is what almost happened to Panda Bear until he reapplied for residency and did whatever he had to do to get into his desired field of medicine.

That said while I agree with the fact that research or engineering is probably the challenge the poster you quoted is looking for. We really don't know much about the poster who you quoted or their situation so to deem something as ******ed without more information is a bit pushing it too far.

If they find happiness in pharmacy that's their business. If they still aren't happy it doesn't affect us one way or another.

I am not saying hes ******ed bc i dont know the guy. But his plan sounds really dumb. He complains about medicine not being intellectual or mentally challenging, but for some reason he choose to do FP at a community program; that shows bad judgement on his part if he was looking for an intellectually stimulating field.

Going back to pharm will not help much in my opinion, bc either way you will have to go back and finish a residency to combine the two degree, unless if he is planning to ditch medicine entirely.

Pharm practice is even more repetitive than medicine, and probably even more mindless work than most fields of medicine. Pharm research maybe more stimulating, but I dont think you need a pharm degree to do that. You could probably get involved in some clinical trails, work for a pharm company, do research at an institution with an MD/DO.

Many of the fields I listed earlier arent that difficult to get into. Neurology is fairly easy, pain management is fairly easy.

 

[sacrament]

Idiot. Havn't you heard. You can't just like your job as a doctor. The only reason anyone could be satisfied with their medical career is either that they consider it to be some mystical calling or that they're blindly chasing after naive ideals. You "just like" your job. What a load of BS.

Way to go, douchebag, I was making exactly the opposite point. It's the fruitloops who think they've got a Calling who become the most bitter and disenchanted, while it's the pragmatists like myself who, while maybe not having the time of our lives, eventually just cruise through, don't find internship terribly more horrible than medical school (because we have no expectations of glory), and eventually find ourselves enjoying our big screen TVs without crying ourselves to sleep every night because we're not connecting enough with our patients. Now how about you go f**k yourself. Doctor's orders.

 

[8744]

Way to go, douchebag, I was making exactly the opposite point. It's the fruitloops who think they've got a Calling who become the most bitter and disenchanted, while it's the pragmatists like myself who, while maybe not having the time of our lives, eventually just cruise through, don't find internship terribly more horrible than medical school (because we have no expectations of glory), and eventually find ourselves enjoying our big screen TVs without crying ourselves to sleep every night because we're not connecting enough with our patients. Now how about you go f**k yourself. Doctor's orders.

Dude, you rule. People should listen to you instead of having the typical knee-jerk, reaction which is the rule on SDN. I've noticed that people take your challenge to their deeply held notions of medicine as a calling as a personal attack, even though I don't recall that you were attacking anybody.

The only job I ever absolutely loved was driving pizza for Dominos way back in the early 1980s. There was literally no downside to that job. If the pay were better I'd drive pizza for a career. But it's not so I have to do other things which I may not enjoy as much but which pay better.

 

[8744]

Eh, yes Medicine is a job. It's a very hard job. I knew that going into it. Practically every doctor I met when I was considering it reinforced the fact. But it's a job that I enjoy. I probably wouldn't enjoy a forklift job, though that's obviously something you enjoyed. We're all different. I like being busy. I like the fast pace. I enjoy the challange of being stretched to my limit. I'm not very idealistic. I'm not in medicine "to help people". Sure I have a good bedside manner and know how to gain style points by giving a new twist to the usual palliative cliches. But I'm only doing this for me. I just like it.

I can easily see how if you didn't get enjoyment from it, Medicine could be a living hell. If that's the case for you then get out if you can. If you can't then, too bad. You have my sympathy.

What challenge is that? The only thing that's ever been stretched to the limit during my entire medical career is my tolerance for wasted time, chicken****, and other people's bad attitudes. It's not like we're running around all day at a breakneck pace saving lives and curing our patient's diseases with stunning exertions of medical prowess. The majority of my medical training has been devoted to mindless scutwork which a motivated high school student could probably do, that is if we could find a high school student to work for the pitiful wages offered by residency programs.

 

[oldbearprofessor]

I hesitate to get into this debate (again), but I am aware that many read this thread so I want to make a point or two about the issue of idealism.

There is no doubt that most of what any doctor does would be done by someone else if they weren't there and that the idealism most enter med school with is seriously damaged, especially by the third year core rotations and internship. These are realities that are described, probably accurately, here and I see reflected in some of the students and residents I interact with. I do not deny the reality of any of the negative experiences expressed on this thread.

However, it is not true that one can't make a unique and meaningful contribution as a physician and perceive oneself as having added something to the human experience as a result of one's individual efforts. I am aware of 100 recently graduated pediatricians all working or about to work in Africa for one to two years for peanuts in lousy settings taking care of kids with HIV infections (look up Secure the Future - I am not part of it, so this is not about my experience). In some cases, entire countries with only 1 or 2 pediatricians are getting twice that many added from this program and a long-term plan is in place to enhance the medical care system for children in these areas. I am aware of multiple pediatricians at my hospital, including some older than even I am, who annually go to Latin America or Africa to destitute settings to provide medical services that others don't provide to children. Often they take trainees with them.

I think I know some of these people very well, and I don't think their experiences have embittered them at all. I think that the interaction with trainees, with the community, and the gift they feel they give to the poorest children in the world, have enriched their lives tremendously.

There are a lot of ways to deal with the realities of medicine as we find it in the third year of med school and internship. One of them is to decide to go forward and take care of children who otherwise would have no high-quality pediatric care or to teach modern pediatrics to the pediatric community in developing countries. I am grateful that medicine, especially academic pediatrics, has provided me the opportunity to do that and am very grateful for the people who convinced me to switch from my planned career into medicine more than 25 years ago.

Regards

OBP

 

[obgyngatorgirl]

Agreed, med school sucked. It was more studying than I ever thought I could do. Residency - more hours than I ever thought possible. Who are my parents again? Oh yeah, those guys in the photos in my living room . . . haven't seen them much in the last few years. More than 1 Thanksgiving in the hospital away from the big Cuban family. My husband is a teacher. I miss weekends and summers and Christmas break off, not to mention Spring break. I miss regular hours.

However . . . I am totally grateful to be allowed to be a doctor. I knew it was long hours coming in, and I don't love that, but I realize that people don't get to decide when they bleed out and babies don't get to make appointments for when they want to be born (most of the time ).
As far as compensation, I was a high school teacher before med school, and I thought I was rich when I saw my first $1000 paycheck for 2 weeks of work . . . as far as I'm concerned, doctors do just fine. We'll never starve, put it that way. So I won't have a Ferrari . . . aaaahhhh well, I'll slobber over it in magazines. I came from a home with a single mom and 2 siblings sharing a 2 bed/1bath apartment. Not to make it sound like a sob story, but I just don't have high maintenance needs. I wonder how many people who have complained about reimbursement in previous posts are children of physicians from the previous generation, when docs were very rich folks, and accustomed to a wealthy lifestyle? Not trying to be insulting, just curious.

Anyhow, it is definitely amazing to be able to do the things we do. Speaking in particular of my field, who else gets to deliver babies? Who gets to have their hands in someone's abdomen removing a tumor? Who gets to bring the joy of fertility to a couple who couldn't have done it without medical intervention? Yes, there are annoying problems (CHRONIC PELVIC PAIN, ARRRRGGGHHHH ) but every career has those, you laugh it off, and move on to the stuff that makes you happy. You don't focus on that and let it ruin your day/week/career/life.

I am sorry for those who have found such disillusionment with medicine, I wish I could be happy enough in my own life for all of us. Not trying to be funny or rude, but seriously, depression is a real illness, and anhedonia is easily treated with a little SSRI . . . just a thought.

To the pre-meds, just try to get as much hands on time as you can, and not just in "cool" stuff- go volunteer in a "boring" clinic and see the day to day. Make sure you're not in it for the money or glory; that stuff is either non-existent or so far off it's not worth thinking about this early in your training. You had better be aware that you will have HARD days ahead, and if knowing that you still want to do this, go for it!! And keep a smile on your face, surround yourself with positive people, and it can be a great future. Good luck!

 

[8744]

Agreed, med school sucked. It was more studying than I ever thought I could do. Residency - more hours than I ever thought possible. Who are my parents again? Oh yeah, those guys in the photos in my living room . . . haven't seen them much in the last few years. More than 1 Thanksgiving in the hospital away from the big Cuban family. My husband is a teacher. I miss weekends and summers and Christmas break off, not to mention Spring break. I miss regular hours.

However . . . I am totally grateful to be allowed to be a doctor. I knew it was long hours coming in, and I don't love that, but I realize that people don't get to decide when they bleed out and babies don't get to make appointments for when they want to be born (most of the time ).
As far as compensation, I was a high school teacher before med school, and I thought I was rich when I saw my first $1000 paycheck for 2 weeks of work . . . as far as I'm concerned, doctors do just fine. We'll never starve, put it that way. So I won't have a Ferrari . . . aaaahhhh well, I'll slobber over it in magazines. I came from a home with a single mom and 2 siblings sharing a 2 bed/1bath apartment. Not to make it sound like a sob story, but I just don't have high maintenance needs. I wonder how many people who have complained about reimbursement in previous posts are children of physicians from the previous generation, when docs were very rich folks, and accustomed to a wealthy lifestyle? Not trying to be insulting, just curious.

Anyhow, it is definitely amazing to be able to do the things we do. Speaking in particular of my field, who else gets to deliver babies? Who gets to have their hands in someone's abdomen removing a tumor? Who gets to bring the joy of fertility to a couple who couldn't have done it without medical intervention? Yes, there are annoying problems (CHRONIC PELVIC PAIN, ARRRRGGGHHHH ) but every career has those, you laugh it off, and move on to the stuff that makes you happy. You don't focus on that and let it ruin your day/week/career/life.

I am sorry for those who have found such disillusionment with medicine, I wish I could be happy enough in my own life for all of us. Not trying to be funny or rude, but seriously, depression is a real illness, and anhedonia is easily treated with a little SSRI . . . just a thought.

To the pre-meds, just try to get as much hands on time as you can, and not just in "cool" stuff- go volunteer in a "boring" clinic and see the day to day. Make sure you're not in it for the money or glory; that stuff is either non-existent or so far off it's not worth thinking about this early in your training. You had better be aware that you will have HARD days ahead, and if knowing that you still want to do this, go for it!! And keep a smile on your face, surround yourself with positive people, and it can be a great future. Good luck!

Arrrrghhh. There is no need to be grateful. Your hospital should be grateful to you, seeing how you have a doctorate degree and you're willing to work 100 hours a week for less than they pay the lady dishing out chili mac in the cafeteria.

That's the problem with medical education and why some of the more idiotic practices will never change, that is, because enough people think that medicine is somes sort of religious calling where there is no pressure to raise salaries and otherwise improve your quality of life. Why pay the cow when you can get the milk for next to nothing?

 

[8744]

I hesitate to get into this debate (again), but I am aware that many read this thread so I want to make a point or two about the issue of idealism.

There is no doubt that most of what any doctor does would be done by someone else if they weren't there and that the idealism most enter med school with is seriously damaged, especially by the third year core rotations and internship. These are realities that are described, probably accurately, here and I see reflected in some of the students and residents I interact with. I do not deny the reality of any of the negative experiences expressed on this thread.

However, it is not true that one can't make a unique and meaningful contribution as a physician and perceive oneself as having added something to the human experience as a result of one's individual efforts. I am aware of 100 recently graduated pediatricians all working or about to work in Africa for one to two years for peanuts in lousy settings taking care of kids with HIV infections (look up Secure the Future - I am not part of it, so this is not about my experience). In some cases, entire countries with only 1 or 2 pediatricians are getting twice that many added from this program and a long-term plan is in place to enhance the medical care system for children in these areas. I am aware of multiple pediatricians at my hospital, including some older than even I am, who annually go to Latin America or Africa to destitute settings to provide medical services that others don't provide to children. Often they take trainees with them.

I think I know some of these people very well, and I don't think their experiences have embittered them at all. I think that the interaction with trainees, with the community, and the gift they feel they give to the poorest children in the world, have enriched their lives tremendously.

There are a lot of ways to deal with the realities of medicine as we find it in the third year of med school and internship. One of them is to decide to go forward and take care of children who otherwise would have no high-quality pediatric care or to teach modern pediatrics to the pediatric community in developing countries. I am grateful that medicine, especially academic pediatrics, has provided me the opportunity to do that and am very grateful for the people who convinced me to switch from my planned career into medicine more than 25 years ago.

Regards

OBP

Uh, yeah...but some of us have wives and children to support and need to make a living...something we barely do as residents.

 

[8744]

I hesitate to get into this debate (again), but I am aware that many read this thread so I want to make a point or two about the issue of idealism.

There is no doubt that most of what any doctor does would be done by someone else if they weren't there and that the idealism most enter med school with is seriously damaged, especially by the third year core rotations and internship. These are realities that are described, probably accurately, here and I see reflected in some of the students and residents I interact with. I do not deny the reality of any of the negative experiences expressed on this thread.

However, it is not true that one can't make a unique and meaningful contribution as a physician and perceive oneself as having added something to the human experience as a result of one's individual efforts. I am aware of 100 recently graduated pediatricians all working or about to work in Africa for one to two years for peanuts in lousy settings taking care of kids with HIV infections (look up Secure the Future - I am not part of it, so this is not about my experience). In some cases, entire countries with only 1 or 2 pediatricians are getting twice that many added from this program and a long-term plan is in place to enhance the medical care system for children in these areas. I am aware of multiple pediatricians at my hospital, including some older than even I am, who annually go to Latin America or Africa to destitute settings to provide medical services that others don't provide to children. Often they take trainees with them.

I think I know some of these people very well, and I don't think their experiences have embittered them at all. I think that the interaction with trainees, with the community, and the gift they feel they give to the poorest children in the world, have enriched their lives tremendously.

There are a lot of ways to deal with the realities of medicine as we find it in the third year of med school and internship. One of them is to decide to go forward and take care of children who otherwise would have no high-quality pediatric care or to teach modern pediatrics to the pediatric community in developing countries. I am grateful that medicine, especially academic pediatrics, has provided me the opportunity to do that and am very grateful for the people who convinced me to switch from my planned career into medicine more than 25 years ago.

Regards

OBP

Uh, yeah...but some of us have wives and children to support and need to make a living...something we barely do as residents.

 

[dutchman]

Uh, yeah...but some of us have wives and children to support and need to make a living...something we barely do as residents.

Yeah I never figured out why resident doctors have to be so underpayed.
something needs to be done about that. you would think they could at least pay resident doctors as much as they pay nurses. This looks like a job for Jack Abramoff

 

[Leukocyte]

Deleted

 

[NRAI2001]

Arrrrghhh. There is no need to be grateful. Your hospital should be grateful to you, seeing how you have a doctorate degree and you're willing to work 100 hours a week for less than they pay the lady dishing out chili mac in the cafeteria.

That's the problem with medical education and why some of the more idiotic practices will never change, that is, because enough people think that medicine is somes sort of religious calling where there is no pressure to raise salaries and otherwise improve your quality of life. Why pay the cow when you can get the milk for next to nothing?

I totally agree with you on this. Many of the problems in medicine (cutting reimbursements, residency hours, difficulty of getting into medical school) are justified by this logic.

 

[Taurus]

Yeah I never figured out why resident doctors have to be so underpayed.
something needs to be done about that. you would think they could at least pay resident doctors as much as they pay nurses. This looks like a job for Jack Abramoff

That's a good question. Why do you suppose that's so?

It's because the AMA and its ilk has a monopoly over residencies. They don't want to introduce wage competition that would cause staff salaries to increase substantially and therefore reduce hospital profits. By having a monopoly over the system, they can artificially keep the wages low. I don't want to sound cynical, but these are the same groups who thought for a long time that working a resident 100+ hours/week and keeping them awake for 30 hours straight was good patient care. A lawsuit is working its way through the courts to challenge this residency pay system. Does it seem fair that someone who matches into a coveted specialty or program should be paid the same as someone who matches into a lower one? If this was a true marketplace, residents would be paid like any other job in other industries where the best command the top dollars.

 

[NRAI2001]

That's a good question. Why do you suppose that's so?

It's because the AMA and its ilk has a monopoly over residencies. They don't want to introduce wage competition that would cause staff salaries to increase substantially and therefore reduce hospital profits. By having a monopoly over the system, they can artificially keep the wages low. I don't want to sound cynical, but these are the same groups who thought for a long time that working a resident 100+ hours/week and keeping them awake for 30 hours straight was good patient care. A lawsuit is working its way through the courts to challenge this residency pay system. Does it seem fair that someone who matches into a coveted specialty or program should be paid the same as someone who matches into a lower one? If this was a true marketplace, residents would be paid like any other job in other industries where the best command the top dollars.

Something needs to be done. Either cut hours even more and allow moon lighting or pay more or shave a year or two off of the entire process. Its ridiculous, many of us will be well into our 30s before we start making a real salary.