"I thought this was a free consult"

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randomdoc1

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Has anyone else ran into this nonsense? For me this feels very pathognomonic for a personality disorder. I mean seriously, you're taking up the time of an NP/MD/DO/PA/PhD/PsyD and it's supposed to be free? It's not any different than if you book at a hospital system. You sign papers about your patient financial responsibility, you get rendered a healthcare service, you pay for said service. We're not trying to sell cars, gizmos, gadgets or anything. Especially when the patient has already signed the papers acknowledging their financial responsibilities. I had an interesting situation where a psychologist, recently completed a post doc, wanted to schedule at this office. She refused to provide us insurance info or why she wanted to establish care. She came in with this "I'm a psychologist and work in this field too. I'd like to set up an in person meeting first. (and she wanted her choice of provider/s)" I don't think any of us would like it very much if someone just wanted to come in person (evening hours no less) for a free visit for who knows how long just to see if they'd feel we'd be a fit.

My other favorite is people contacting and asking for weekend and evening appointments only, must be in person. Maybe I'm old fashioned. Although I'm only in my 30s. But whenever I called a clinic, it did not even register as an expectation for me. I may entertain asking just in case there's a remote chance of that being an option but I was prepared that we're looking at regular business hours M-F. How about you guys?

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That psychologist is heading for a real successful private practice giving out free in-person consults

The other one seems like a way to delay their own care by coming up with some ridiculous expectations for their appointments

The most common one I get is people asking if I will prescribe XYZ and I will happily take 5 mins of my time to screen them on the phone to avoid drug seekers
 
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That psychologist is heading for a real successful private practice giving out free in-person consults

The other one seems like a way to delay their own care by coming up with some ridiculous expectations for their appointments

The most common one I get is people asking if I will prescribe XYZ and I will happily take 5 mins of my time to screen them on the phone to avoid drug seekers
phone screens for the win. I have a automated template that just says due to a part time schedule, our office does not have the staffing capacity to do x,y,z. If they are still interested, please provide us the following info so we can look for a provider who is a fit for them. Automation at it's finest.
 
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Do you like psychodynamic psychotherapy? These things, IMO, are an immediate rule-in for personality pathology. I find it fascinating how quickly the enactments begin!

Some people just don't read any of the paperwork. It sucks that they look for a "good fit" when it comes to therapists but take any psychiatry appointment they can get. I'm unnerved by the people who are on this crusade to (1) get an appointment and (2) get med. Their chief complaint is literally "med management." With a motivational spirit, I ask, what are your goals? They're like, wtf?
 
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It’s also that service industry mentality like we’re doing free estimates for a plumbing business or something. I haven’t had that happen cause like 98% of my patients are insurance but I can see it happening.
 
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Interestingly, in the DC market, I've noticed that a lot of the cash private practice doctors don't charge for the initial consultation. When I was looking for an analyst I spoke with 5 different psychiatrists before finding one that I could afford. None of them would post their rates (or even have websites). Pay was always brought up during this first visit and that seemed to be how they all preferred to do it. I didn't exactly like that I wasn't paying for these consults, but then again I'm glad I didn't have to drop a couple grand several times like that.

Perhaps this speaks to the general personality type of the DC cash-paying patient and the psychiatrists who attempt to avoid the argument over the initial fee.
 
Interestingly, in the DC market, I've noticed that a lot of the cash private practice doctors don't charge for the initial consultation. When I was looking for an analyst I spoke with 5 different psychiatrists before finding one that I could afford. None of them would post their rates (or even have websites). Pay was always brought up during this first visit and that seemed to be how they all preferred to do it. I didn't exactly like that I wasn't paying for these consults, but then again I'm glad I didn't have to drop a couple grand several times like that.

Perhaps this speaks to the general personality type of the DC cash-paying patient and the psychiatrists who attempt to avoid the argument over the initial fee.

Yeah but I think real analysis is a bit different....you're going to shell out thousands of dollars in cash a month for real analysis multiple days a week and you don't need that many analysis patients to be full, so it's a quite a bit more of a "fit" thing. I also suspect they want to see if you're appropriate and reliable enough for analysis and want the ability to terminate the relationship right there, so if there's no fee exchanged for services there's really no establishment of a doctor patient relationship.

So yeah I can kind of see that in that situation, that's interesting though.
 
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Yeah but I think real analysis is a bit different....you're going to shell out thousands of dollars in cash a month for real analysis multiple days a week and you don't need that many analysis patients to be full, so it's a quite a bit more of a "fit" thing. I also suspect they want to see if you're appropriate and reliable enough for analysis and want the ability to terminate the relationship right there, so if there's no fee exchanged for services there's really no establishment of a doctor patient relationship.

So yeah I can kind of see that in that situation, that's interesting though.
Yeah, I definitely agree that it's a wise move for analysis. What most did is have their analysis cases MTWR and then F was divided into three or four blocks for a two hour consultation and they only saw the free news on Fridays. Of course, none of them were exclusively analysis offering psychiatrists. I imagine if you were doing 5-7 analysis cases then you would only need intakes once every couple of years.
 
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1) Some therapists do a free initial consult to ensure therapeutic fit. That is very different than the standard medical model of care. This may be leading this individual's expectations. I would start by educating the patient (e.g., "We treat everyone the same, regardless of their credentials. And we don't do that here").

2) As an aside: There is an interesting range between meeting reasonable patient preference and patient indulgence.

3) I feel bad about the after hours thing. I assume people are doing that because their employer limits attendance for medical appointments. But I made the mistake of doing Saturday appointments for a while. The no show rate was unreal. Never again.
 
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Interestingly, in the DC market, I've noticed that a lot of the cash private practice doctors don't charge for the initial consultation. When I was looking for an analyst I spoke with 5 different psychiatrists before finding one that I could afford. None of them would post their rates (or even have websites). Pay was always brought up during this first visit and that seemed to be how they all preferred to do it. I didn't exactly like that I wasn't paying for these consults, but then again I'm glad I didn't have to drop a couple grand several times like that.

Perhaps this speaks to the general personality type of the DC cash-paying patient and the psychiatrists who attempt to avoid the argument over the initial fee.
I wonder if they are doing the "free consultation" to say that they have no doctor-patient relationship with you if they decide that you are not a good fit.
 
I really hate the business side of medicine. It makes me feel really icky. Private practice just sounds like the worst.
 
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1)

3) I feel bad about the after hours thing. I assume people are doing that because their employer limits attendance for medical appointments. But I made the mistake of doing Saturday appointments for a while. The no show rate was unreal. Never again.

Did you ever do after hours or early morning? If you did what was your experience with no shows during those times?
 
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I really hate the business side of medicine. It makes me feel really icky. Private practice just sounds like the worst.
Private practice is definitely a business but I much prefer it to the mountains of administrative BS I’ve encountered at any employed position I’ve had. With self-pay private practice, there’s a direct business relationship with the patient. I very much appreciate working for the patient - not the insurance company or the facility.
 
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Do you like psychodynamic psychotherapy? These things, IMO, are an immediate rule-in for personality pathology. I find it fascinating how quickly the enactments begin!

Some people just don't read any of the paperwork. It sucks that they look for a "good fit" when it comes to therapists but take any psychiatry appointment they can get. I'm unnerved by the people who are on this crusade to (1) get an appointment and (2) get med. Their chief complaint is literally "med management." With a motivational spirit, I ask, what are your goals? They're like, wtf?
I actually do like psychodynamic therapy and find these initial interactions not just very interesting but clinically pertinent. If only prospective patients knew at least for this office, there's a psychiatrist listening in assessing if it will be a fit from that first interaction (I get a sick/comical pleasure playing "receptionist"). Sometimes drug reps come looking for me and I say "Oh, Dr. Randomdoc1 is not in today, but I'll take a message for her." rofl. The funny thing with our paperwork is we have people initial a few major points about finances. Even in our initial intake on the phone or via email, the financial piece is discussed further and the paperwork requests for a payment method to keep on file. The paperwork has a special place to initial about our strict attendance policy as well and it is emphasized again in the appointment confirmation messages (email and text). So when after all those layers people try to argue the free consultation BS---pretty compelling for personality issues. LOL.
I really hate the business side of medicine. It makes me feel really icky. Private practice just sounds like the worst.
Au contraire, mon cheri. If you work outside of PP, you have no transparency on the finances--and you do get f**ked over. It's amazing how many patients will stiff you if they think you do not know. I've worked with the hospital system models and the pay per hour is far lower than PP. My theory is the factors involved include 1) you are subsidizing other employees/expenses and have no idea if they are pulling their weight, 2)patients get away easily with not paying their bill and can keep racking up their tab and 3)much of the time the insurance information one file is not up to date. In my other thread, I discussed my dad being in a prolonged hospitalization. I was floored that after over a year, they still had the incorrect Medicare number on file for his billing. This was after I told multiple staff to correct it both in the inpatient and outpatient settings (if staff in my office had a pattern of missing stuff that like...they'd be fired so fast). Mostly because I want the hospital to get paid. We never got sent a bill either. How do I know? I set up an online portal to make sure my parents' medical bills get paid. My dad had multiple rounds of chemo, radiation, inpatient, outpatient, blood products up the wazoo and the thought that this hospital missed out on who knows how much pay...makes me shudder. In PP, I run a software to make sure all the insurance is current and paying out. At least half of patients when they change or lose insurance, will never tell you unless you prompt them, and even if you do, they may not prioritize you to give you the info. So I subscribed to tools that search and find their insurance (it's called "coverage discovery" in revenue cycle jargon). So actually...in PP you can make sure you are paid for every minute of work you put in. If a patient has a problem with that model, you can say "get the f**k out of my office." But in other settings, you have to just take it.

Did you ever do after hours or early morning? If you did what was your experience with no shows during those times?
I used to do evening appointments. The attendance was great, much better than standard work hours, which makes sense. Most people are out of work and have less busy stuff going on. But we have lives too. The part that struck me psychodynamically were the reactions that came out when I gradually worked down the evening hours. Used to be every Tuesday. Then 3 Tuesdays a month, 2 a month, etc. etc. Brought out some interesting reactions. "I can't do times outside of evenings, I have work and a family!" And we don't?! And how exactly do they make appointments for their other physicians? I doubt there's too many evening spots to choose from through the hospital systems. Especially since these are not frequent recurring visits but more once every 3-12 months for 25 minutes. And with a large caseload, it's just not sustainable nor clinically advisable to appease every request. Patients who were ready to put on their problem solving hats as opposed to being demanding obviously demonstrated stronger defenses and clinically were less pathological. The ones who somehow implied we owed them evening hours were given referrals and told they are free to call around and look.

It’s also that service industry mentality like we’re doing free estimates for a plumbing business or something. I haven’t had that happen cause like 98% of my patients are insurance but I can see it happening.
That's interesting. Because my practice is about 100% insurance based and our office gets a fair amount the BS (and almost all our providers are at a doctorate level of training). The only time we do self pay is if for a brief window, someone is between insurances. We stick to insurance because we realized with self pay, people try to haggle prices down (interestingly especially with non-Caucasian providers, more so if the provider is also a female) and with insurance you have the convenient response of saying "sorry, we have to stick to the insurance contract." May be my own bias, but I can't help but feel like there's conscious or subconscious prejudice at play (this practice is full of young females with some mix of non-Caucasians). I'm not Caucasian. Physically I'm petit, young, female, have a soft voice, and with a meek appearance. I've had people slip and call me an NP although nowhere does it say I'm an NP. I've also had people try to become patients of mine because they assumed I'm "holistic" or do herbal medicine. Sometimes with delinquent accounts, I step in, introduce myself as Dr. Randomdoc1 and reach out to patients of other providers to resolve it and have met a share of nasty and downright disrespectful responses. When the psychologist/psychiatrist talks to the patient again and informs them I'm the owner of the office and their boss...they apologize profusely and get their sh** together. But there's nothing more telling than how someone treats another person when they assume that other person has no power or means to do anything for them. The other end is interesting too. When people come to me after strong referrals from the community and online interactions with me (but have never seen a picture of me, heard my voice, etc.)...some have also said "I don't know what I was expecting, but you're a lot different in person than what I anticipated." And yes, many expected to see a man...which gets me every time!

We had an interesting experiment happen lately. A new psychiatrist joined the practice. A white male with blonde hair, blue eyes, attractive. No one ever questioned paying their bill with him (even on two occasions when the software in error doubled the cost of the visit) and he was always addressed as a physician. Also, his visits are a lot shorter than the ones I offer and my female counterpart. Again, can't prove or say anything with certainty, but they are interesting observations. And to be fair, I think we all have some bias to varying degrees.
 
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I've got a parent questioning the bill for their adult child now...

The sleep doc I used to have sublease from me - we were both demographically different. I don't recall either of us having any difference in bill questioning patients. Then again, different specialties, so not exactly apple/oranges comparison to your psychiatry clinic.

I've yet to talk with a female physician who hasn't had 'Nurse' or less authoritative interactions with some patients compared to males over their career. Sorry ladies. But hey, less likely to have to worry about a female patient accusing you of something?

Glad to read peoples evening hours experiences. I've contemplated that in the future. Need to chew on that thought more.
 
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I've got a parent questioning the bill for their adult child now...

The sleep doc I used to have sublease from me - we were both demographically different. I don't recall either of us having any difference in bill questioning patients. Then again, different specialties, so not exactly apple/oranges comparison to your psychiatry clinic.

I've yet to talk with a female physician who hasn't had 'Nurse' or less authoritative interactions with some patients compared to males over their career. Sorry ladies. But hey, less likely to have to worry about a female patient accusing you of something?
On the converse, there's more demand for female providers, they fill up a lot faster in the mental health field. Whenever I offer one of our two male providers I get this "eww...a man. What would they know about emotions?"

But the patients they do get, question the bill a lot less. Yea, I would not compare between specialties. Psychiatrists are not real doctors you know. We don't go to medical school like the real docs LOL.
 
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Interesting. Didn't know there was a female preference at a PP clinic level.
Seen a few when I worked at Big Box shop, patients requesting male or female. Maybe 60% female request, 40% male request at times for various reasons but very rare.
 
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probably wanted benzos. If they dont tell you why theyre coming thats rarely a good sign.

meeting before the apt. Great. so you know there will be boundary issues immediately. She would be better suited at a cash only clinic..
 
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Interesting. Didn't know there was a female preference at a PP clinic level.
Seen a few when I worked at Big Box shop, patients requesting male or female. Maybe 60% female request, 40% male request at times for various reasons but very rare.
Especially if you're a hot female. HOLY COW do the calls roll in lol. Well....attractive guys get better traction than the less attractive ones too. But then there's the whole, if you're attractive you must be dumb (geriatric patients tend to be like "you look like a kid, do you even know what you're doing?"). jk jk. I think I'm going off on some tangents now.
 
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I've yet to talk with a female physician who hasn't had 'Nurse' or less authoritative interactions with some patients compared to males over their career. Sorry ladies. But hey, less likely to have to worry about a female patient accusing you of something?

Biggest cringe for me would be when I was a resident on inpatient medicine and I'd come back in with the female attending and the patient would say something like "oh the nurse is here now"...yeah no buddy that's my boss.
 
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Private practice just sounds like the worst.

There's a reason why several won't do private practice despite that it usually makes the most amount of money.
My reason for embracing private practice wasn't the money although heck yes it's nice. It's cause I was sick and tired of working at institutions that didn't know WTF they were doing. In private practice I'm my own boss. The first sign that I was going to get out of being a professor was the last place I worked at, as a professor, it took security 30 minutes to show up if patients started punching each other. When I brought up that needs to be fixed and I was willing to do dozens of hours of work to make it happen, and then the next higher up told me not to do anything, that 30 minutes wasn't bad, and that I'd have to be working under this guy for years, I said to myself I'm getting out of here. (The department head, when he found out agreed with me, but I had to go through weeks of administrative BS to go over the guy right above me. I knew the guy right-above me wasn't leaving this place at least for years. I wasn't going to go through this BS).

My office won't even see anyone until the patient puts in a 100% refundable deposit. Why? Cause half the new patients wouldn't even show up and when we charged them a no show fee they just wouldn't ever make a new appointment. That left several hours of wasted time. The damned money is going to be refunded 100% within 3 visits, if the patient asks for the deposit back in under <3 visits in which case we end the treatment relationship and refund them, or we tell patients they can use it to pay for future visits if their insurance doesn't fully cover visits.

Guess what? Ever since I did that over 90% show up for their first visit and hardly any of them complain. It seemed to not only make sure they showed up first meeting but it also got rid of the patients that didn't know how their own insurance worked and if they didn't know they had a deductible wouldn't push the argument that now I need to eat up the cost for their ignorance.

A buddy of mine referred a patient to me, that patient was told the $100 deposit, and he called up my physician buddy and told them based on this he's convinced I'm a scam, and refused to make a first appointment. Fine with me. Same guy would've a few weeks later been telling me some BS that he shouldn't be paying a copay despite that his insurance has that as a rule.
 
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Especially if you're a hot female. HOLY COW do the calls roll in lol. Well....attractive guys get better traction than the less attractive ones too. But then there's the whole, if you're attractive you must be dumb (geriatric patients tend to be like "you look like a kid, do you even know what you're doing?"). jk jk. I think I'm going off on some tangents now.
female psych patients seem better at controlling sexual impulses than male impulses imo. But thats purely opinion.

im a younger guy and I never know if a patient is acting a certain way or wearing provocative clothing purely do to personality disorder or some flirtacious nature. I just try to disregard it as much as possible and not pay it attention. I imagine some of my female colleagues have had to deal with some annoying comments.
 
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Medicine is turning more and more into a service industry... lol patient satisfaction scores then some silly admin being concerned with a poor one not knowing it was a drug seeker. Make your money now then get out of the hamster wheel or better yet join the VA that's starting to be my ultimate plan after I have reached FI x 2. Everyone outside of docs are only caring about money ex: pharm/insurance/hospitals etc and manipulate docs into " best for the patient nonsense" mantras. Don't fall for that anymore. In the states everything is a business and no one cares about patients except you who are being manipulated every which way. Do what's best for you and make your bank then cut back and enjoy your spoils and if your truly lucky work in some free type of clinic which is another part of my master plan to maintain skills, structure, and doing it my way.
 
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female psych patients seem better at controlling sexual impulses than male impulses imo. But thats purely opinion.

im a younger guy and I never know if a patient is acting a certain way or wearing provocative clothing purely do to personality disorder or some flirtacious nature. I just try to disregard it as much as possible and not pay it attention. I imagine some of my female colleagues have had to deal with some annoying comments.

I mean, if you are someone who is just so flirtatious that you feel the need to flirt with your physician during an appointment, you at minimum have a very different idea of what social boundaries are appropriate than society at large, y'know?

And if you feel like you just can't turn it off, well...I am guessing that your inability to relate to a broad swath of people of your preferred gender in any other way may be related to some of the problems in your life.
 
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I mean, if you are someone who is just so flirtatious that you feel the need to flirt with your physician during an appointment, you at minimum have a very different idea of what social boundaries are appropriate than society at large, y'know?

And if you feel like you just can't turn it off, well...I am guessing that your inability to relate to a broad swath of people of your preferred gender in any other way may be related to some of the problems in your life.

usually the people i see are higher acuity and have quite a few life problems
 
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I really hate the business side of medicine. It makes me feel really icky. Private practice just sounds like the worst.
It's the best! It is uncomfortable talking about money especially in the healthcare setting, and it is the part I hate the most. but like it or not medicine is a business in this country, and you can't get away from it in employed positions either even in so-called non profits. but i'll tell you it's incredibly satisfying being paid directly by patients for your work.

some residencies provide some didactics etc in the business of medicine but from what i've heard, the vast majority do not. not that long ago, private practice psychiatry was the default. many of those psychiatrists of the mid to late 20th century were not great at the business aspects, but they also leaned into the psychodynamics of the financial transactions as grist for the mill. Patients often have truly interesting phantasies about the therapeutic relationship which color how they view the financial aspects. I've had several patients tell me that I'm their friend. One patient had phantasies about leaving her husband and running off with me. Another patient asked me if I "enjoyed" seeing her. In all these cases you could see how paying for it gets in the way of the phantasy. There's the sense of if he really cared about me, I wouldn't have to pay. But paying for sessions is essential to the therapeutic work.

While I don't have pts thinking they're seeing me for free (you need to pay a hefty up front fee to get in to see me so there can be no confusion), I've had patients spend hours complaining about how much they're paying and how they're not getting anything out of it. Of course this patient's attacking and devaluing people mirrored what happened in their own life leading them to be abandoned and alone. I had one patient tell me how much money they would give me if I could "cure" them; the same patient balked at paying my fee if it wouldn't be reimbursed by insurance. I reflected they weren't all that motivated to be cured after all.
 
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Non payers and demands for free treatment are usually a personality disorder.

Have given free initial appointments – but not by choice.

Since starting private practice have only had a couple of patients who did runners. Knocked back one of them who wanted to come back after 5 years of radio silence, and while I had toyed with the idea of making them pay upfront I didn’t want to give them special treatment and figured the money wasn’t worth the cognitive effort. It was also a red flag that it was one of their family members who was pushing for the appointment and wanting to pay the outstanding fee on their behalf. If I accept that, is that actually encouraging the right kind of behavior?

One that I had seen recently who left without paying actually emailed back claiming financial hardship and wanting to go on a payment plan, yet was also wanting a high dose stimulant script without an appointment. While I sometimes do provide scripts for medications in between appointments in genuine cases, the feeling here is that by doing so for this patient the payment plan will quietly stop (if it even gets started in the first place).

To that end I have crafted a response along the lines of stating that a payment plan can be organized, but I can’t legally prescribe without appointments, and as appointments can’t be made until debt are settled it may not be possible to continue due to the ongoing financial pressure. Due to not paying the first time they didn’t rebook at the time, so now the waiting time for a review is well over 3 months - as such it might be in their best interest to look elsewhere. However, I can delegate prescribing to their GP if they pass on the details of someone willing to prescribe. I know they don’t have a regular family doctor, and it’s going to be hard to find someone who will agree to prescribe ADHD medications – but the onus is on them to do the hard work now.

In both cases they had a similar superficially glib/antisocial personality flavour, but only becomes evident at the end when leaving without paying is clearly a premeditated action. Normal people just don’t book in the fee is an issue, or will cancel/reschedule if they suddenly find themselves short of funds.
 
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Not paying, or being flirtatious =/= personality disorder
Oof, don't get me started on the staff splitting I have to educate providers on. "But this patient is so nice and said they would do x,y, and z." Well, they didn't and they are what they show. Although infrequent, some cases providers are so enmeshed. So I tell them, "ok, well I will leave the billing and collections between you two, because I'm not wasting more paid labor on these games." These have always resulted in either the patient paying for the provider right away or the provider terminated the relationship. Very entertaining dynamics!
 
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female psych patients seem better at controlling sexual impulses than male impulses imo. But thats purely opinion.

im a younger guy and I never know if a patient is acting a certain way or wearing provocative clothing purely do to personality disorder or some flirtacious nature. I just try to disregard it as much as possible and not pay it attention. I imagine some of my female colleagues have had to deal with some annoying comments.
Annoying comments???

Try solicitation of full-body physical contact, repeated after hours emails with extended commentary on my appearance, accusations of "only getting into med school because you were hot", hanging around my car in the parking lot, trying to friend me on social media, informing me of when/where they had seen me in public, and death threats.

Had all of those in residency (long time ago). Might be different now (or maybe not - I still get harassed on the street and I'm 45 so who knows when that's going to tail off) but I'm kind of glad I don't ever see male patients anymore.
 
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I really hate the business side of medicine. It makes me feel really icky. Private practice just sounds like the worst.

'Sup, I like your style. Come with me. No ickiness, no worries about business, I'll take care of everything. I've got a room where you can do your thing with clients I send your way. Just do your thing, I'll take care of everything else and treat you the way you deserve to be treated. Sound good?

Signed,
The Man
 
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Annoying comments???

Try solicitation of full-body physical contact, repeated after hours emails with extended commentary on my appearance, accusations of "only getting into med school because you were hot", hanging around my car in the parking lot, informing me of when/where they had seen me in public, and death threats.

Had all of those in residency (long time ago). Might be different now (or maybe not - I still get harassed on the street and I'm 45 so who knows when that's going to tail off) but I'm kind of glad I don't ever see male patients anymore.
I'm quite far left politically on social issues and I still wouldn't recognize 10% of the gender bias if not for being married to a female doc. It's shocking to me what people will do when others are not around/they think they can get away with it. The only one of those experiences I have ever had personally is the death threats, so at least we share that in common regardless of gender in this field :lol:.
 
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'Sup, I like your style. Come with me. No ickiness, no worries about business, I'll take care of everything. I've got a room where you can do your thing with clients I send your way. Just do your thing, I'll take care of everything else and treat you the way you deserve to be treated. Sound good?

Signed,

I know a guy who hires people, pays them $hit wages, and asks them to do call for $100 and he finds idiots willing to take it. He frequently uses banter like "team-effort" while he makes over a million and rakes in the real money.
 
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Did you ever do after hours or early morning? If you did what was your experience with no shows during those times?

Keep in mind: I'm a psychologist.



1) . Early morning: 7AM start time= Established business people are great. Young business people, homemakers, WFH people, etc are horrible at showing up. 8AM= fine for non-elderly. Old people can't be trusted to show up. No idea why.

2) After 5pm, There seems to be an increased rate of lateness and no shows. After 6PM, the clinical exam can get complicated by people getting "hangry", or some casual-ness. A colleague does a 6PM group therapy, and it seems to go well.

a. Staff issues can be problematic, especially if they have kids.
b. I still don't know when to turn on the answering service. If you're in the office, and they are calling to cancel... it's this whole thing.
 
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Keep in mind: I'm a psychologist.



1) . Early morning: 7AM start time= Established business people are great. Young business people, homemakers, WFH people, etc are horrible at showing up. 8AM= fine for non-elderly. Old people can't be trusted to show up. No idea why.

2) After 5pm, There seems to be an increased rate of lateness and no shows. After 6PM, the clinical exam can get complicated by people getting "hangry", or some casual-ness. A colleague does a 6PM group therapy, and it seems to go well.

a. Staff issues can be problematic, especially if they have kids.
b. I still don't know when to turn on the answering service. If you're in the office, and they are calling to cancel... it's this whole thing.
Very interesting and helpful. I will likely offer morning hours in my private practice (aided by time zones) and the discussion in this thread is making me feel like evening hours will probably not be high yield, which I certainly don't mind.
 
Very interesting and helpful. I will likely offer morning hours in my private practice (aided by time zones) and the discussion in this thread is making me feel like evening hours will probably not be high yield, which I certainly don't mind.
Morning is probably higher yield but one big exception to evening hours being flake o'clock in my experience is healthcare/mental health professionals. They are way more likely to be available in late afternoon/early evening than they are early in the morning. They also usually show up and don't so much as utter a peep of protest when you charge them a no show fee when they don't, modulo the occasional personality disorder.
 
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Old people can't be trusted to show up. No idea why.

IT's usher effect. The same demographics for ushers-kids straight out of high school and elderly always miss appointments. For teens and young adults it's cause they haven't developed responsibility and are still operating on a ignorance of youth that healthcare is no big deal. For older people? From what I've seem they forget half the time they had an appointment. I hate saying this but the only times I've seen someone have a car accident in our practice's parking lot it was an elderly driver.
 
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3) I feel bad about the after hours thing. I assume people are doing that because their employer limits attendance for medical appointments. But I made the mistake of doing Saturday appointments for a while. The no show rate was unreal. Never again.

Yeah i heard that at another private practice I was at during residency. They also had saturdays for a while and no-shows were so high, they stopped and wouldn't do it again. I think to patients weekend appointments SOUND nice but they inevitably end up planning other stuff for the weekends during the week.

Admin staff keep telling me that the school aged kids I see parents would love if I had appointments earlier than 9AM so they could go straight from an earlier appointment to school so I may expand into the 8AM start time sometime this year.
 
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On the converse, there's more demand for female providers, they fill up a lot faster in the mental health field. Whenever I offer one of our two male providers I get this "eww...a man. What would they know about emotions?"

But the patients they do get, question the bill a lot less. Yea, I would not compare between specialties. Psychiatrists are not real doctors you know. We don't go to medical school like the real docs LOL.
That's interesting. I'm a male provider. I have no trouble keeping my schedule full. In fact, I've inherited multiple female patients from a female provider in the same clinic where I work. They inevitably say something to the effect of "she doesn't listen to me." I attribute most of my success as a clinician to listening to my patients. They do notice. I seem to have had several new patients lately with PMDD and they chose me for appointments and had no problem talking to me about their female issues. My female patients don't seem to have any issue disclosing very intimate things related to their trauma, either. I don't know. Could this be a regional attitude? I've always seen my being male as an asset because it gives people who prefer a male provider in a female dominated field a choice.
 
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Morning is probably higher yield but one big exception to evening hours being flake o'clock in my experience is healthcare/mental health professionals. They are way more likely to be available in late afternoon/early evening than they are early in the morning. They also usually show up and don't so much as utter a peep of protest when you charge them a no show fee when they don't, modulo the occasional personality disorder.
I second this. I do telehalth twice a week from 6 to 10. I have no issues with keeping that schedule full and no-shows are rare. I'm in the central time zone and have mostly east coast patients, so this is 7 to 11 P EST. My schedule is full.
 
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Admin staff keep telling me that the school aged kids I see parents would love if I had appointments earlier than 9AM so they could go straight from an earlier appointment to school so I may expand into the 8AM start time sometime this year.
I'm CAP and used to do some 8am appointments, but parents were scheduling their teens for that time and they would show up basically asleep the entire session.

My appointments from 3pm-7pm fill most reliably, and I doubt I could succeed in the CAP world without those hours (but I only stay that late 1-2 times per week).
 
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Yeah i heard that at another private practice I was at during residency. They also had saturdays for a while and no-shows were so high, they stopped and wouldn't do it again. I think to patients weekend appointments SOUND nice but they inevitably end up planning other stuff for the weekends during the week.

Admin staff keep telling me that the school aged kids I see parents would love if I had appointments earlier than 9AM so they could go straight from an earlier appointment to school so I may expand into the 8AM start time sometime this year.

1) When I tried Saturday outpatient work: on Fridays, I stayed home, didn't drink alcohol, didn't exercise heavily, didn't eat heavily, and went to bed early. Patients would BEG for a Saturday appointment, and 85% + would no show. This ruined my Friday night, my Saturday, increased my staff costs, created some staff problems, and complicated my referrals (e.g., started getting referrals specifically because of Saturday availability, neurosurgery would want the neuropsych reports by Monday).
 
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Had only one patient say that he thought this was a free consult. Probably because of the fact that we always discuss clearly what the expectation for payment is since the first thing we tell people is we don’t bill insurance. Didn’t argue with the guy. Made it just uncomfortable enough that I was sure that he wouldn’t come back, but not so much that he might come back.
 
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I'm CAP and used to do some 8am appointments, but parents were scheduling their teens for that time and they would show up basically asleep the entire session.

My appointments from 3pm-7pm fill most reliably, and I doubt I could succeed in the CAP world without those hours (but I only stay that late 1-2 times per week).
Agreed. I see a lot of children/adolescents and early mornings are not good for them, generally. I don't start until 9 am and afternoons/early evenings are always in huge demand; I work until 7 pm 4 days/week and 6 pm the other.
 
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I'm CAP and used to do some 8am appointments, but parents were scheduling their teens for that time and they would show up basically asleep the entire session.

My appointments from 3pm-7pm fill most reliably, and I doubt I could succeed in the CAP world without those hours (but I only stay that late 1-2 times per week).
Agreed. I see a lot of children/adolescents and early mornings are not good for them, generally. I don't start until 9 am and afternoons/early evenings are always in huge demand; I work until 7 pm 4 days/week and 6 pm the other.

Can totally see that but I also like to eat dinner with my family regularly...also we don't have front office staff here after 5PM so makes it more annoying for me to have to check people and copays and crap.
 
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