How's DO match been last 2 cycles?

[scoopdaboop]

Seems like in 2020 do match was awesome, 2021 a different story, maybe ~ 70 percent match. I'm curious what 2022 is like. I'm likely applying rads next year, a 230 DO student, no research, some fillers like volunteering etc, will I match?

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[guytakingboards]

Assuming you had a decent class rank, i'd expect you to match if you applied broadly enough. Might even get academic program in the midwest or south.

 

[Dryad8212]

Assuming you had a decent class rank, i'd expect you to match if you applied broadly enough. Might even get academic program in the midwest or south.

I am a second year medical student, by the time time I take step 2 ck will be the only important objective metric. Why is there not a variance between step 2 ck scores like there is for step 1. For example, the difference between diagnostic radiology and pediatrics is few points while for step 1 it was almost 20 points?
Thank you in advance.

 

[guytakingboards]

Probably because Step 2CK hasn't been the metric of interest for long enough yet. Back when I was involved in resident recruitment (within the last 5 years) it was mostly irrelevant. Some people hadn't even taken it by the time they interviewed and for others there was a large range of what was acceptable.

I.e. if someone hit the ballpark 240 step 1 score, a 235 or a 260 step 2 CK didn't really move the needle for me.

I suspect over time a ballpark step 2ck score will be established and the variance around that significantly tightened.

 

[workaholic007]

Probably because Step 2CK hasn't been the metric of interest for long enough yet. Back when I was involved in resident recruitment (within the last 5 years) it was mostly irrelevant. Some people hadn't even taken it by the time they interviewed and for others there was a large range of what was acceptable.

I.e. if someone hit the ballpark 240 step 1 score, a 235 or a 260 step 2 CK didn't really move the needle for me.

I suspect over time a ballpark step 2ck score will be established and the variance around that significantly tightened.

when u mention if someone hit 240 step 1 score, a 235 or 260 didnt move the needle, why do you say that? I am saying this as someone who scored a 238 after getting 250+ on practice exams. Trying to make it up for my under performance lol

 

[guytakingboards]

when u mention if someone hit 240 step 1 score, a 235 or 260 didnt move the needle, why do you say that? I am saying this as someone who scored a 238 after getting 250+ on practice exams. Trying to make it up for my under performance lol

240 is/was the average matched applicant Step 1 score for radiology. If someone was at 240 or within range (238 would be fine in my opinion), I was fairly confident they could take a test. At the individual/micro level, that score tells me they're probably going to be able to pass the radiology Core exam. The step 1 takers with 220's and below do tend to fail the Core exam at slightly higher rates. That's all that tells me. Otherwise from personal experience, I've seen people with 260 step 1's not necessarily do better clinically than someone with a 240.

At the macro level (i.e. matched resident class profile), it's pure bragging rights for the program to say they recruited a class with an average 250+ step 1 score. I bet there wouldn't be a statistically significant difference in the Core pass rate from a program with a 255 step 1 average versus one a 245 step 1 average. They may or may not ultimately produce better clinical radiologists.

If you take step 2 CK and get a 260, that might make you a better applicant on paper but for me it wouldn't change my opinion of your ability to pass the Core exam or your potential performance as a resident.

 

[Dryad8212]

@guytakingboards : so as to someone like yourself who use to handle applicants and interviews, from your perspective after a certain step score, what other parts of the applications is being looking at from the most important to least important then? Thanks in advance.

 

[guytakingboards]

@guytakingboards : so as to someone like yourself who use to handle applicants and interviews, from your perspective after a certain step score, what other parts of the applications is being looking at from the most important to least important then? Thanks in advance.

Grades and board scores are the primary consideration. Stuff like AOA is definitely gravy.

Letters are the next big thing. These are a good indicator of what the candidates like in a clinical environment, hopefully from someone who's endorsement matters.

IMHO, everything after that is fit/extraneous to recruiting a resident who will pass the Core and be decent clinically. Got a bunch of research? Great, that may be really important at a top academic center or not important at all somewhere more clinical. Leadership, do you seem like you'll be a chief resident or department chair down the line? Volunteering? Who had time to volunteer a lot in medical school? With rare exception, nothing in this last category will get you an interview if your objective measures and LOR's aren't good.

Last and definitely least is hobbies. You like running, cooking and watching the Office? Good for you... that's so (not) original.

The interview is a whole other ballgame.

 

[Taurus]

I’m on the selection committee for our residency. I would say that radiology is on an upward trajectory. More high caliber applicants than spots (I didn’t realize so many students scored 250+ on both Steps). DO and FMG applicants beware and better have fallback plans. I think radiology is a natural choice for many people after seeing other fields like EM and RadOnc imploding and anesthesia on the cusp. Like I keep repeating, radiology is one of the very few fields in medicine where there is a big beautiful moat separating physician from midlevel.

 

[workaholic007]

I’m on the selection committee for our residency. I would say that radiology is on an upward trajectory. More high caliber applicants than spots (I didn’t realize so many students scored 250+ on both Steps). DO and FMG applicants beware and better have fallback plans. I think radiology is a natural choice for many people after seeing other fields like EM and RadOnc imploding and anesthesia on the cusp. Like I keep repeating, radiology is one of the very few fields in medicine where there is a big beautiful moat separating physician from midlevel.

do you think I should be worried with a 238 as a MD student? No name MD school however. I want to match in a academic program. currently ,M3

 

[Taurus]

do you think I should be worried with a 238 as a MD student? No name MD school however. I want to match in a academic program. currently ,M3

You should be ok if you apply broadly and have right expectations. If next year is more competitive than this year, you would be considered mid to low tier, unless you have other amazing factors.

 

[Dryad8212]

@Taurus how much emphasis is placed on preclinical grades? I am getting straight Bs lol. High B's though.

 

[MadRadLad]

I'd guess most places aren't going to dissect it that much. If your overall step + class rank/quartile meets their standards you're fine. Maybe they'll look at your sub-I grade if they really care.

 

[.Asterion]

My academic program got 1000+ applications for 10 spots. I’ve helped with a few interviews. 90% those interviewed have been from top 20 medical schools with close to perfect scores and grades. I would say radiology has gone from competitive to very very competitive over the past few years.

 

[Feelgood MD]

My academic program got 1000+ applications for 10 spots. I’ve helped with a few interviews. 90% those interviewed have been from top 20 medical schools with close to perfect scores and grades. I would say radiology has gone from competitive to very very competitive over the past few years.

Would you consider these applicants 1st choice rads? And would you consider your program top 20 as well?

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Seems like in 2020 do match was awesome, 2021 a different story, maybe ~ 70 percent match. I'm curious what 2022 is like. I'm likely applying rads next year, a 230 DO student, no research, some fillers like volunteering etc, will I match?

I doubt it was 71%, you have to consider that many people apply to Rads as a back up and even then it wasn't a 71%, if you count the advanced pgy2 matches. It's getting more competitive however and you need scores for it(230+ steps). You need to wait for 2022 charting outcomes to make an accurate comparison to 2020.

 

[scoopdaboop]

I doubt it was 71%, you have to consider that many people apply to Rads as a back up and even then it wasn't a 71%, if you count the advanced pgy2 matches. It's getting more competitive however and you need scores for it(230+ steps). You need to wait for 2022 charting outcomes to make an accurate comparison to 2020.

Still some hope.

 

[RageQuitter34]

I’m on the selection committee for our residency. I would say that radiology is on an upward trajectory. More high caliber applicants than spots (I didn’t realize so many students scored 250+ on both Steps). DO and FMG applicants beware and better have fallback plans. I think radiology is a natural choice for many people after seeing other fields like EM and RadOnc imploding and anesthesia on the cusp. Like I keep repeating, radiology is one of the very few fields in medicine where there is a big beautiful moat separating physician from midlevel.

@Taurus and @.Lisfranc Just curious have ya'll interviewed any DO students this cycle? Was taking a peak at the rads spreadsheet and saw that there are a couple of DO students with step 1/2 260s/260s having <10 interviews and am getting pretty worried lol when I apply next year.

 

[Taurus]

@Taurus and @.Lisfranc Just curious have ya'll interviewed any DO students this cycle? Was taking a peak at the rads spreadsheet and saw that there are a couple of DO students with step 1/2 260s/260s having <10 interviews and am getting pretty worried lol when I apply next year.

We interview the best applicants. MD, DO, FMG’s. So many with 250+ step scores. However, the real disadvantage is when we rank you. You have to be a very special DO or FMG to be ranked high enough to realistically match at our program. Whether fair or not, we don’t want a class with too many of either because it gives a program a reputation of being inferior and not desirable. It’s all about perception. That’s why for DO and FMG your best shot is to apply to programs with a track record of matching them. I’m not the residency director btw. I just help out.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

We interview the best applicants. MD, DO, FMG’s. So many with 250+ step scores. However, the real disadvantage is when we rank you. You have to be a very special DO or FMG to be ranked high enough to realistically match at our program. Whether fair or not, we don’t want a class with too many of either because it gives a program a reputation of being inferior and not desirable. It’s all about perception. That’s why for DO and FMG your best shot is to apply to programs with a track record of matching them. I’m not the residency director btw. I just help out.

Is your program considered a top 20 program?

 

[RageQuitter34]

We interview the best applicants. MD, DO, FMG’s. So many with 250+ step scores. However, the real disadvantage is when we rank you. You have to be a very special DO or FMG to be ranked high enough to realistically match at our program. Whether fair or not, we don’t want a class with too many of either because it gives a program a reputation of being inferior and not desirable. It’s all about perception. That’s why for DO and FMG your best shot is to apply to programs with a track record of matching them. I’m not the residency director btw. I just help out.

Gotcha that's understandable. From your perspective then, what makes a "very special" DO applicant then? Also I'm sure most programs haven't decided yet, but do you have an idea of how step 1 scores will be used next cycle (2023) when the cohort will have a mix of p/f scores and numerical scores. Do you feel like rads residencies will place the same emphasis on it, decrease, completely ignore, etc?

 

[scoopdaboop]

We interview the best applicants. MD, DO, FMG’s. So many with 250+ step scores. However, the real disadvantage is when we rank you. You have to be a very special DO or FMG to be ranked high enough to realistically match at our program. Whether fair or not, we don’t want a class with too many of either because it gives a program a reputation of being inferior and not desirable. It’s all about perception. That’s why for DO and FMG your best shot is to apply to programs with a track record of matching them. I’m not the residency director btw. I just help out.

Are you in a urban competitive area? top 20-30?

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Are you in a urban competitive area? top 20-30?

It has to be a top 20 program

 

[Steve_Zissou]

I’m a DO with a couple of top 20 invites, but I don’t plan on counting them as “real” ranks. Definitely ranking them highly, but I don’t expect to match them over the mid-tier programs that have accepted more DOs.

 

[Neopolymath]

I’m a DO with a couple of top 20 invites, but I don’t plan on counting them as “real” ranks. Definitely ranking them highly, but I don’t expect to match them over the mid-tier programs that have accepted more DOs.

This is a good opportunity to remind everyone to always RANK ACCORDING TO PREFERENCE. Nothing more, nothing less.

Congrats on the interviews.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

This is a good opportunity to remind everyone to always RANK ACCORDING TO PREFERENCE. Nothing more, nothing less.

Congrats on the interviews.

Thanks man, I definitely still plan to rank them in the order I want, but I’m just mentally preparing by not getting my hopes up for a top 20

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

I’m a DO with a couple of top 20 invites, but I don’t plan on counting them as “real” ranks. Definitely ranking them highly, but I don’t expect to match them over the mid-tier programs that have accepted more DOs.

You never know there's DO's who match at top programs every year like that Vandy DR match last year... congrats 🎊

 

[Rads4lyfe]

I did residency interviews a few years back, and I don't recall us interviewing any DOs. Everyone we interviewed though were stellar applicants...250+, AOA, good schools. Unfortunately, radiology still isn't very DO friendly at the top. Some good programs are known to be more DO friendly though. I would recommend focusing on those DO friendly programs and applying broadly.

I also want to emphasize ranking based on your preference and not where you think you'll end up.

 

[Dryad8212]

I did residency interviews a few years back, and I don't recall us interviewing any DOs. Everyone we interviewed though were stellar applicants...250+, AOA, good schools. Unfortunately, radiology still isn't very DO friendly, especially at the top. Some good programs are known to be more DO friendly though. I would recommend focusing on those DO friendly programs and applying broadly.

I also want to emphasize ranking based on your preference and not where you think you'll end up.

how much did preclinical grades a role in interview/ranking?

 

[Rads4lyfe]

how much did preclinical grades a role in interview/ranking?

We didn't put much weight on preclinical grades. Many schools are P/F for preclinicals, and Step 1 was the great equalizer. However, most people that did well on step 1 also did pretty well on preclinicals. Also, some schools have junior AOA which is based on preclinical performance and getting AOA can really help.

I'm not sure if this will change since Step 1 is P/F now...

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

I did residency interviews a few years back, and I don't recall us interviewing any DOs. Everyone we interviewed though were stellar applicants...250+, AOA, good schools. Unfortunately, radiology still isn't very DO friendly, especially at the top. Some good programs are known to be more DO friendly though. I would recommend focusing on those DO friendly programs and applying broadly.

I also want to emphasize ranking based on your preference and not where you think you'll end up.

is this like a top 5 program? Not saying rads is easy to get but rads is very DO friendly IMO but getting more competitve, something like 90% of programs per PD survey either often or seldom interview DO's. Match rate for DO rads was 90% in 2020 charting outcomes. Poster above is a DO and has several top 20 invites...

 

[Rads4lyfe]

is this like a top 5 program? Not saying rads is easy to get but rads is very DO friendly IMO but getting more competitve, something like 90% of programs per PD survey either often or seldom interview DO's. Match rate for DO rads was 90% in 2020 charting outcomes. Poster above is a DO and has several top 20 invites...

I want to stay anonymous so I'll just say it is considered a top program.

You are right. I'll be more specific. Many really good rads programs will interview DO applicants. However, most of the top programs are not DO friendly. In some other specialties, top programs will strongly consider DO applicants. I don't think Rads is quite there yet. I do think things are moving in the right direction though, hopefully.

Also, the PD survey you are referring seems useless. 90% either do or don't consider DO applicants? That's like saying 90% of people either love coffee or hate it, and 10% are indifferent. Maybe I'm misunderstanding...Wouldn't it be more useful to know what % of PDs consider DOs and what % don't consider DOs?

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

I want to stay anonymous so I'll just say it is considered a top program.

You are right. I'll be more specific. Many really good rads programs will interview DO applicants. However, most of the top programs are not DO friendly. In some other specialties, top programs will strongly consider DO applicants. I don't think Rads is quite there yet. I do think things are moving in the right direction though, hopefully.

Also, the PD survey you are referring seems useless. 90% either do or don't consider DO applicants? That's like saying 90% of people either love coffee or hate it, and 10% are indifferent. Maybe I'm misunderstanding...Wouldn't it be more useful to know what % of PDs consider DOs and what % don't consider DOs?

Your misunderstanding the last part, 90% are in the often interview/sometimes interviews DO's so they atleast consider DO's, there's very few that never interview DO's but like you said some PD's don't respond to the surveys so that could skew the data.

 

[Taurus]

I personally think having the “DO” title hurts rather than helps a person’s career. It’s like a scarlet letter. It makes you stick out, and not in a good way. The DO community needs to pressure leadership to change title to “MD”. Medical physicians need to unite and differentiate ourselves from these quacks like DNP, homeopathic and naturopathic physicians.

 

[Dryad8212]

I personally think having the “DO” title hurts rather than helps a person’s career. It’s like a scarlet letter. It makes you stick out, and not in a good way. The DO community needs to pressure leadership to change title to “MD”. Medical physicians need to unite and differentiate ourselves from these quacks like DNP, homeopathic and naturopathic physicians.

bruh im with you, medical physicians need a stand against these "natural" remedies offered by these "natural" physicians

 

[ScreensOrScrews]

Reviving this thread to ask a question to any PDs or aPDs (@Taurus)

If I only have 3 DR interviews at this point (and I applied to literally every program) how worried should I be? Apps went out Sept 28th this year so its been just over 2 weeks at this point.

Edit: not a DO like thread title would suggest, just a nervous MD candidate looking to hijack this thread

 

[Steve_Zissou]

Reviving this thread to ask a question to any PDs or aPDs (@Taurus)

If I only have 3 DR interviews at this point (and I applied to literally every program) how worried should I be? Apps went out Sept 28th this year so its been just over 2 weeks at this point.

Edit: not a DO like thread title would suggest, just a nervous MD looking to hijack this thread

Bruh, it’s been 2 weeks, chill.

 

[ScreensOrScrews]

Bruh, it’s been 2 weeks, chill.

lol man im still at 3 DR IIs....do I have your permission to cry now?

 

[Steve_Zissou]

lol man im still at 3 DR IIs....do I have your permission to cry now?

Stats?

 

[ScreensOrScrews]

Stats?

243/250 only passes and high passes for preclinical and clinical grades; lots of research in non-DR field, USMD

 

[workaholic007]

243/250 only passes and high passes for preclinical and clinical grades; lots of research in non-DR field, USMD

did u get any more interviews?

 

[ScreensOrScrews]

did u get any more interviews?

nope :/

 

[chudat]

I’m on the selection committee for our residency. I would say that radiology is on an upward trajectory. More high caliber applicants than spots (I didn’t realize so many students scored 250+ on both Steps). DO and FMG applicants beware and better have fallback plans. I think radiology is a natural choice for many people after seeing other fields like EM and RadOnc imploding and anesthesia on the cusp. Like I keep repeating, radiology is one of the very few fields in medicine where there is a big beautiful moat separating physician from midlevel.

And that moat unfortunately is filled with a never ending a worklist