How to proceed in the event of not matching for residency?

[Rockinacoustic]

Agree with @gwarm01. I would focus on where past residents are working now instead of how happy they were during residency

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[Hels2007]

I guess what I'm saying is don't see having to staff every other weekend as a bad thing.

The only way it would be a bad thing is if you had planned to work every other weekend elsewhere for extra cash, having just one weekend a month is pretty hard to do for more than a month or two. Every other weekend for year is very doable, I have done it (put in 9-10 hour days at the fellowship position every weekday + worked retail every other weekend + occasionally travelled to conferences on weekends + taught (all the preparation took place on my own time) + served on a committee (requiring writing, editing and talking to people quite a bit every month). Easy? No. Doable? Absolutely. Worth it? A million times yes.

 

[mustang sally]

I didn't match. I tried to scramble but it didn't go so well.

I took option 2 (rural BFE). At the time I kind of figured it would be temporary, but I ended up loving my job so much that I'm still here.

Good luck! Hopefully something works out for you residency-wise (but it's not the end of the world if it doesn't).

 

[VictorOfHungerGames]

I had a classmate who who planned on doing residency. She was too good for retail. At graduation, I asked where she matched and she said she never did. I asked what she was going to do, and she said she had an interview with with Walmart next week. She defriended a bunch of us on Facebook and we never heard from her again.

Don't be like my classmate.

Would be hard to prove this actually happened but it probably did haha I would think this happens to majority of people who apply to residency... worse case is when you're done with residency, you find yourself interviewing at walmart. It's inevitable. lol

 

[Hedgehog32]

For what it's worth, I would consider a large staffing component to be a benefit. Only staffing every fourth weekend means you graduate the program with 24 days of staffing under your belt, or about 5 weeks of experience.

Your school, professors, and plenty of other pharmacists will say otherwise, but I believe that staffing experience is crucial for your development and can be more important than your clinical rotations. Your administrative projects, research, posters, etc. probably won't directly translate into useful skills. One month in the ICU won't make you an intensivist, and neither will one month in HemOnc make you an oncology specialist. You are getting the Cliff's notes version of these clinical areas and will graduate with a broad but shallow pool of knowledge. You then will most likely take a job in a staffing or hybrid position, where a large portion of your work involves managing technicians, balancing workloads, verifying orders in a timely manner, and making clinical interventions.

Staffing can be sensory overload, especially when you are new and working evening shifts (covering half the hospital by yourself). You can't get stuck with decision paralysis when you have multiple new admissions, phone calls coming in, and a batch that needs to be checking.

I guess what I'm saying is don't see having to staff every other weekend as a bad thing.

The only way it would be a bad thing is if you had planned to work every other weekend elsewhere for extra cash, having just one weekend a month is pretty hard to do for more than a month or two. Every other weekend for year is very doable, I have done it (put in 9-10 hour days at the fellowship position every weekday + worked retail every other weekend + occasionally travelled to conferences on weekends + taught (all the preparation took place on my own time) + served on a committee (requiring writing, editing and talking to people quite a bit every month). Easy? No. Doable? Absolutely. Worth it? A million times yes.

I don't know, I guess it's just an issue of motivation on my part. I used to not mind going for days in a row without sleep (or with getting only very little sleep), but now that I'm older (30+), the thought of going 12+ days in a row without getting any/much sleep between the regular work schedule, projects, etc. is just really demotivating. I think another factor is that I had never planned to do a residency and instead had hoped to just graduate and get a standard staffing job *somewhere* without doing extra training, but obviously that's no longer a realistic goal to expect to be able to achieve.

Also, hearing the horror stories from the residents at the hospital I used to work at is another factor that makes it hard for me to feel motivated, and the other factor is knowing that even if I do manage to match and follow through on doing a residency, I'll still most likely have to move to a rural area for a few years to get my career started.

In a way, when I think about the mentality I had back when I started pharmacy school, I guess it's sort of a feeling of "trying to bite off more than I intended to chew in the first place," you know what I mean?

 

[Hedgehog32]

I didn't match. I tried to scramble but it didn't go so well.

I took option 2 (rural BFE). At the time I kind of figured it would be temporary, but I ended up loving my job so much that I'm still here.

Good luck! Hopefully something works out for you residency-wise (but it's not the end of the world if it doesn't).

Thanks. If my residency apps don't end up panning out, I think I'll get in touch with a few temp/staffing agencies about doing a 3-month assignment at a hard-to-staff location (I've been told by a few of my preceptors that new graduates do qualify for these kinds of positions, so I guess I'll find out). If things turn out to be really bleak, I may even consider going into a different direction entirely with something like a coding bootcamp... who knows.

 

[Hels2007]

I would take the residency horror stories with a grain of salt. That kind of posturing is common, and in my experience is somewhat exaggerated, it's just so much fun to scare the young'uns and pat yourself on the back at the same time. Also, all people are different, if they had a hard time with something, doesn't mean you will, and vice versa, if they loved something, doesn't mean you will. One of biology professors in my undergrad school was a very polarizing person - half the class loved him, half the class hated him. If you asked people about his class, depending on who you asked, it was either a living nightmare, or the best class they have ever taken. I adored him and asked him to write a rec letter for pharmacy school, but I had friends who would rather have chewed their arm off than asked him to write anything for them. I also had a preceptor in my P4 year whom I disliked intensely, and it was mutual, and I absolutely hated that rotation. It actually came highly recommended by a lot of people in the year before me, and when she taught a class a year earlier, she seemed fine...

 

[TateThePharmacist]

First off, any time that you are looking into a career field you need to make sure that it's a career that can't be outsourced to another country. CS sure seems like something that could very easily be outsourced to another country, so it may be a viable option for now but I would think you'd be in for a rocky career with ups and downs.
I graduated in 2019, and got that coveted hospital position out in BFE without a residency so I have some insight on this. I highly doubt that you'll be able to get any contract work within a hospital, even in hard to staff areas. I talked with several recruiters about those contracts and they said that in the past they would take new grads for them, however they get enough applicants that they just wait it out until they have someone with hospital experience. It takes quite a while before they'll get desperate enough to take a new grad. Granted the people they do contract out with who have hospital experience are either some of the most abrasive people you'll ever meet or they probably should have their license revoked and a new grad would do a better job, but unfortunately that's just how things are.
Most places want to see a license before they'll consider you, so I don't know why everyone is giving you crap saying that you need to be more vigilant about it. Anytime that I've seen a job posted, it's for an opening that they wanted filled yesterday, not in 6-8 months from now. They really don't have the foresight for that so I wouldn't be too worried about that. (By the way, the earliest you'll get your license is most likely end of June to July for most states) However having said all that, the job I landed was one that I actually applied for graduation week so you should still be looking/applying.
Everyone keeps saying to try IHS, well that means everyone in your position is trying IHS (and guess what, that's a lot of people!). So I would say that route is saturated at the moment, so I wouldn't necessarily count on that. I applied to several IHS positions (and VA for that matter) and never even heard back on them.
Where I'm at the big metropolitan areas are completely saturated with pharmacists (most of whom are residency trained) so the residency trained pharmacists are having to branch out to less populated areas. So in my state the hospitals in cities that are only 60,000 people have so many residency trained applicants that they won't even consider anyone without experience/residency. I would be willing to bet that in 5 to 10 years you wouldn't be able to get a job at a hospital in BFE (I'm talking 5,000 people or less in town) without hospital experience or a residency.
So I was able to get that full time position at a hospital in BFE and so many doors have opened for me. I was counting the other days and realized I have been informally offered 6 different jobs since I got a position. It was a mix of both retail and hospital and they were all either prn or part time positions but still, it frustrates me that all it took was barely any experience (most of those offers were before I even finished my training for my full time job) for everyone to see that I am a good worker and know what I'm doing. But you have to have that little bit of experience to get past the algorithms/HR onto the hiring managers desk.
I actually ended up taking one of the prn jobs I got offered since it was in the metropolitan area that I eventually want to move too. So I work currently work two jobs. (It's essentially my version of a residency but I'm getting paid legitimately 4x what I would have as a resident.) I literally only had 1.5 months of hospital pharmacist experience but it was enough to get me past HR and got me an interview.
So my advise to you is to keep applying to every hospital position that you can, you just need one interview to show them that you'd be a great candidate. If you do get an interview make sure to constantly highlight the hospital experience you do have being an intern. I mean even if you need to pick up a prn position in BFE that you'll only work 1 weekend a month, DO IT!!!! All you need is a little bit of experience to get your foot in the door and it'll open up more opportunities for you.

 

[greenteapanacea]

First off, any time that you are looking into a career field you need to make sure that it's a career that can't be outsourced to another country. CS sure seems like something that could very easily be outsourced to another country, so it may be a viable option for now but I would think you'd be in for a rocky career with ups and downs.
I graduated in 2019, and got that coveted hospital position out in BFE without a residency so I have some insight on this. I highly doubt that you'll be able to get any contract work within a hospital, even in hard to staff areas. I talked with several recruiters about those contracts and they said that in the past they would take new grads for them, however they get enough applicants that they just wait it out until they have someone with hospital experience. It takes quite a while before they'll get desperate enough to take a new grad. Granted the people they do contract out with who have hospital experience are either some of the most abrasive people you'll ever meet or they probably should have their license revoked and a new grad would do a better job, but unfortunately that's just how things are.
Most places want to see a license before they'll consider you, so I don't know why everyone is giving you crap saying that you need to be more vigilant about it. Anytime that I've seen a job posted, it's for an opening that they wanted filled yesterday, not in 6-8 months from now. They really don't have the foresight for that so I wouldn't be too worried about that. (By the way, the earliest you'll get your license is most likely end of June to July for most states) However having said all that, the job I landed was one that I actually applied for graduation week so you should still be looking/applying.
Everyone keeps saying to try IHS, well that means everyone in your position is trying IHS (and guess what, that's a lot of people!). So I would say that route is saturated at the moment, so I wouldn't necessarily count on that. I applied to several IHS positions (and VA for that matter) and never even heard back on them.
Where I'm at the big metropolitan areas are completely saturated with pharmacists (most of whom are residency trained) so the residency trained pharmacists are having to branch out to less populated areas. So in my state the hospitals in cities that are only 60,000 people have so many residency trained applicants that they won't even consider anyone without experience/residency. I would be willing to bet that in 5 to 10 years you wouldn't be able to get a job at a hospital in BFE (I'm talking 5,000 people or less in town) without hospital experience or a residency.
So I was able to get that full time position at a hospital in BFE and so many doors have opened for me. I was counting the other days and realized I have been informally offered 6 different jobs since I got a position. It was a mix of both retail and hospital and they were all either prn or part time positions but still, it frustrates me that all it took was barely any experience (most of those offers were before I even finished my training for my full time job) for everyone to see that I am a good worker and know what I'm doing. But you have to have that little bit of experience to get past the algorithms/HR onto the hiring managers desk.
I actually ended up taking one of the prn jobs I got offered since it was in the metropolitan area that I eventually want to move too. So I work currently work two jobs. (It's essentially my version of a residency but I'm getting paid legitimately 4x what I would have as a resident.) I literally only had 1.5 months of hospital pharmacist experience but it was enough to get me past HR and got me an interview.
So my advise to you is to keep applying to every hospital position that you can, you just need one interview to show them that you'd be a great candidate. If you do get an interview make sure to constantly highlight the hospital experience you do have being an intern. I mean even if you need to pick up a prn position in BFE that you'll only work 1 weekend a month, DO IT!!!! All you need is a little bit of experience to get your foot in the door and it'll open up more opportunities for you.

Great post

 

[mustang sally]

First off, any time that you are looking into a career field you need to make sure that it's a career that can't be outsourced to another country. CS sure seems like something that could very easily be outsourced to another country, so it may be a viable option for now but I would think you'd be in for a rocky career with ups and downs.
I graduated in 2019, and got that coveted hospital position out in BFE without a residency so I have some insight on this. I highly doubt that you'll be able to get any contract work within a hospital, even in hard to staff areas. I talked with several recruiters about those contracts and they said that in the past they would take new grads for them, however they get enough applicants that they just wait it out until they have someone with hospital experience. It takes quite a while before they'll get desperate enough to take a new grad. Granted the people they do contract out with who have hospital experience are either some of the most abrasive people you'll ever meet or they probably should have their license revoked and a new grad would do a better job, but unfortunately that's just how things are.
Most places want to see a license before they'll consider you, so I don't know why everyone is giving you crap saying that you need to be more vigilant about it. Anytime that I've seen a job posted, it's for an opening that they wanted filled yesterday, not in 6-8 months from now. They really don't have the foresight for that so I wouldn't be too worried about that. (By the way, the earliest you'll get your license is most likely end of June to July for most states) However having said all that, the job I landed was one that I actually applied for graduation week so you should still be looking/applying.
Everyone keeps saying to try IHS, well that means everyone in your position is trying IHS (and guess what, that's a lot of people!). So I would say that route is saturated at the moment, so I wouldn't necessarily count on that. I applied to several IHS positions (and VA for that matter) and never even heard back on them.
Where I'm at the big metropolitan areas are completely saturated with pharmacists (most of whom are residency trained) so the residency trained pharmacists are having to branch out to less populated areas. So in my state the hospitals in cities that are only 60,000 people have so many residency trained applicants that they won't even consider anyone without experience/residency. I would be willing to bet that in 5 to 10 years you wouldn't be able to get a job at a hospital in BFE (I'm talking 5,000 people or less in town) without hospital experience or a residency.
So I was able to get that full time position at a hospital in BFE and so many doors have opened for me. I was counting the other days and realized I have been informally offered 6 different jobs since I got a position. It was a mix of both retail and hospital and they were all either prn or part time positions but still, it frustrates me that all it took was barely any experience (most of those offers were before I even finished my training for my full time job) for everyone to see that I am a good worker and know what I'm doing. But you have to have that little bit of experience to get past the algorithms/HR onto the hiring managers desk.
I actually ended up taking one of the prn jobs I got offered since it was in the metropolitan area that I eventually want to move too. So I work currently work two jobs. (It's essentially my version of a residency but I'm getting paid legitimately 4x what I would have as a resident.) I literally only had 1.5 months of hospital pharmacist experience but it was enough to get me past HR and got me an interview.
So my advise to you is to keep applying to every hospital position that you can, you just need one interview to show them that you'd be a great candidate. If you do get an interview make sure to constantly highlight the hospital experience you do have being an intern. I mean even if you need to pick up a prn position in BFE that you'll only work 1 weekend a month, DO IT!!!! All you need is a little bit of experience to get your foot in the door and it'll open up more opportunities for you.

Agreed. Though I'm not a huge fan of LinkedIn, I do get recruiters contacting me fairly frequently on there since I started working. I don't know if any of those jobs would have gone anywhere (since I didn't pursue them), but it seems like it's worth it to keep your profile updated, especially after you land that first pharmacist position and start gaining experience. You know what they say...you just need one person to say yes.

 

[Hedgehog32]

I would take the residency horror stories with a grain of salt. That kind of posturing is common, and in my experience is somewhat exaggerated, it's just so much fun to scare the young'uns and pat yourself on the back at the same time. Also, all people are different, if they had a hard time with something, doesn't mean you will, and vice versa, if they loved something, doesn't mean you will. One of biology professors in my undergrad school was a very polarizing person - half the class loved him, half the class hated him. If you asked people about his class, depending on who you asked, it was either a living nightmare, or the best class they have ever taken. I adored him and asked him to write a rec letter for pharmacy school, but I had friends who would rather have chewed their arm off than asked him to write anything for them. I also had a preceptor in my P4 year whom I disliked intensely, and it was mutual, and I absolutely hated that rotation. It actually came highly recommended by a lot of people in the year before me, and when she taught a class a year earlier, she seemed fine...

Unfortunately, there are even posts on Reddit that mention the name of the hospital system I worked for under "Residencies to avoid"-type threads, but I'll just go into the interview for the heck of it and try to keep an open mind. In a worst-case scenario, if I'm really not feeling it, I guess I could always just not match them at all.

 

[Hedgehog32]

First off, any time that you are looking into a career field you need to make sure that it's a career that can't be outsourced to another country. CS sure seems like something that could very easily be outsourced to another country, so it may be a viable option for now but I would think you'd be in for a rocky career with ups and downs.
I graduated in 2019, and got that coveted hospital position out in BFE without a residency so I have some insight on this. I highly doubt that you'll be able to get any contract work within a hospital, even in hard to staff areas. I talked with several recruiters about those contracts and they said that in the past they would take new grads for them, however they get enough applicants that they just wait it out until they have someone with hospital experience. It takes quite a while before they'll get desperate enough to take a new grad. Granted the people they do contract out with who have hospital experience are either some of the most abrasive people you'll ever meet or they probably should have their license revoked and a new grad would do a better job, but unfortunately that's just how things are.
Most places want to see a license before they'll consider you, so I don't know why everyone is giving you crap saying that you need to be more vigilant about it. Anytime that I've seen a job posted, it's for an opening that they wanted filled yesterday, not in 6-8 months from now. They really don't have the foresight for that so I wouldn't be too worried about that. (By the way, the earliest you'll get your license is most likely end of June to July for most states) However having said all that, the job I landed was one that I actually applied for graduation week so you should still be looking/applying.
Everyone keeps saying to try IHS, well that means everyone in your position is trying IHS (and guess what, that's a lot of people!). So I would say that route is saturated at the moment, so I wouldn't necessarily count on that. I applied to several IHS positions (and VA for that matter) and never even heard back on them.
Where I'm at the big metropolitan areas are completely saturated with pharmacists (most of whom are residency trained) so the residency trained pharmacists are having to branch out to less populated areas. So in my state the hospitals in cities that are only 60,000 people have so many residency trained applicants that they won't even consider anyone without experience/residency. I would be willing to bet that in 5 to 10 years you wouldn't be able to get a job at a hospital in BFE (I'm talking 5,000 people or less in town) without hospital experience or a residency.
So I was able to get that full time position at a hospital in BFE and so many doors have opened for me. I was counting the other days and realized I have been informally offered 6 different jobs since I got a position. It was a mix of both retail and hospital and they were all either prn or part time positions but still, it frustrates me that all it took was barely any experience (most of those offers were before I even finished my training for my full time job) for everyone to see that I am a good worker and know what I'm doing. But you have to have that little bit of experience to get past the algorithms/HR onto the hiring managers desk.
I actually ended up taking one of the prn jobs I got offered since it was in the metropolitan area that I eventually want to move too. So I work currently work two jobs. (It's essentially my version of a residency but I'm getting paid legitimately 4x what I would have as a resident.) I literally only had 1.5 months of hospital pharmacist experience but it was enough to get me past HR and got me an interview.
So my advise to you is to keep applying to every hospital position that you can, you just need one interview to show them that you'd be a great candidate. If you do get an interview make sure to constantly highlight the hospital experience you do have being an intern. I mean even if you need to pick up a prn position in BFE that you'll only work 1 weekend a month, DO IT!!!! All you need is a little bit of experience to get your foot in the door and it'll open up more opportunities for you.

Appreciate the advice. In regards to contract work, I was told by a pharmacist at my rotation site that there are a couple recruiters out there who will hire new graduates to work at IHS facilities in extremely rural and undesirable areas (think SD/ND/AK), so I was hoping that could be a last-resort option in case all other options fail to pan out. However, I was told the exact same thing as you by recruiters in regards to hospitals in most areas not being willing to consider new graduates; in fact, one recruiter based in the southeast told me that the hospitals he contracts with want pharmacists to have at least 2 years of experience before they'll consider them even for short-term/temporary positions.

On the topic of IHS, I actually applied to a few IHS residencies but haven't heard back regarding interview offers for any of them. A residency program director for one of the sites I applied to said they received around 60 applications for ONE seat... so unless it's one of those situations where over 60% of applications are from extremely sub-par applicants, the odds of matching are less than 2%. Also, you mentioned that you applied to a handful of both IHS and VA positions and never heard back in regards to any of them. I'm currently rotating at a federal hospital on a military base, and that reminds me of something one of my preceptors told me, which is that some IHS and VA facilities receive so many applications that they don't even check the USAjobs.gov repository for submitted applications since they usually have an internal candidate in mind. My understanding is that the only way to get hired at a VA/IHS site without connections or experience is by applying to sites in extremely rural areas (again, places like SD/ND).

Congratulations on getting the BFE hospital job. I agree with you that in a few years it will probably be impossible to get a hospital job even in BFE without residency/experience, just based on the experience I had with contacting hospitals in BFE locations all over the country. If I showed you my "Sent Mail" folder from the period of time spanning October 2019 - December 2019, you'd think I was running some sort of email spam campaign targeting BFE hospital pharmacies. and yet I didn't receive ONE favorable response indicating that they'd be willing to consider a new graduate.

I would also like to respond to the statement you made that in your city of 60k people, there are so many residency-trained pharmacists that the newest residency graduates are having to move out to the BFE areas. I live in a relatively undesirable area of 200k people, and the exact same thing is happening here. At the hospital I worked as an intern at (where I'll also be interviewing for a residency position that I'm not sure I actually want), they graduate 10 residents per year. The most recent group of pharmacists finished the program in June 2019, and the last I heard was that only 3 of them have found jobs so far. The rest are either living with their parents trying to figure out what they want to do or thinking about biting the bullet and applying to retail jobs.

That's one reason I've been giving increasing consideration to the notion of simply switching gears and pursuing something else entirely, such as coding. When I first started pharmacy school, I didn't have any interest in ever living in a large metropolitan city, but over the last few years my mindset has changed and I have started to realize that I would like to live in a much nicer city. Obviously, the chances of that happening as a pharmacist are very slim. On the other hand, as a programmer/software engineer, the job market I'd be going into is one that contrasts sharply with that of pharmacy, and I'd be able to live in almost any city I want. Sure, I might not be working for Google/Amazon/Facebook/Apple/whoever, but even with that acknowledgement, the prospects for an average programmer/software engineer are still so much better (currently) than they are even for experienced pharmacists. You mentioned that outsourcing could be an issue with software engineering, but that's something I'd need to do more research on.

It just sounds so nice to be able to do a 3-4 month bootcamp and go from scrambling to try and find a pharmacist job SOMEWHERE in the country to being able to get a decent-paying job in a nice city after just a few more months of schooling. It's just a thought for now, but I can't help but admit that it's becoming an increasingly appealing one.

/end wall of text/

 

[Hedgehog32]

@pharmacy_sucks Are you familiar with cybersecurity? There is a bootcamp called Evolve that takes 16 weeks to complete and offers job placement services. Not sure what the job market for cyber security professionals looks like in comparison to software engineers', though.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

Appreciate the advice. In regards to contract work, I was told by a pharmacist at my rotation site that there are a couple recruiters out there who will hire new graduates to work at IHS facilities in extremely rural and undesirable areas (think SD/ND/AK), so I was hoping that could be a last-resort option in case all other options fail to pan out. However, I was told the exact same thing as you by recruiters in regards to hospitals in most areas not being willing to consider new graduates; in fact, one recruiter based in the southeast told me that the hospitals he contracts with want pharmacists to have at least 2 years of experience before they'll consider them even for short-term/temporary positions.

On the topic of IHS, I actually applied to a few IHS residencies but haven't heard back regarding interview offers for any of them. A residency program director for one of the sites I applied to said they received around 60 applications for ONE seat... so unless it's one of those situations where over 60% of applications are from extremely sub-par applicants, the odds of matching are less than 2%. Also, you mentioned that you applied to a handful of both IHS and VA positions and never heard back in regards to any of them. I'm currently rotating at a federal hospital on a military base, and that reminds me of something one of my preceptors told me, which is that some IHS and VA facilities receive so many applications that they don't even check the USAjobs.gov repository for submitted applications since they usually have an internal candidate in mind. My understanding is that the only way to get hired at a VA/IHS site without connections or experience is by applying to sites in extremely rural areas (again, places like SD/ND).

Congratulations on getting the BFE hospital job. I agree with you that in a few years it will probably be impossible to get a hospital job even in BFE without residency/experience, just based on the experience I had with contacting hospitals in BFE locations all over the country. If I showed you my "Sent Mail" folder from the period of time spanning October 2019 - December 2019, you'd think I was running some sort of email spam campaign targeting BFE hospital pharmacies. and yet I didn't receive ONE favorable response indicating that they'd be willing to consider a new graduate.

I would also like to respond to the statement you made that in your city of 60k people, there are so many residency-trained pharmacists that the newest residency graduates are having to move out to the BFE areas. I live in a relatively undesirable area of 200k people, and the exact same thing is happening here. At the hospital I worked as an intern at (where I'll also be interviewing for a residency position that I'm not sure I actually want), they graduate 10 residents per year. The most recent group of pharmacists finished the program in June 2019, and the last I heard was that only 3 of them have found jobs so far. The rest are either living with their parents trying to figure out what they want to do or thinking about biting the bullet and applying to retail jobs.

That's one reason I've been giving increasing consideration to the notion of simply switching gears and pursuing something else entirely, such as coding. When I first started pharmacy school, I didn't have any interest in ever living in a large metropolitan city, but over the last few years my mindset has changed and I have started to realize that I would like to live in a much nicer city. Obviously, the chances of that happening as a pharmacist are very slim. On the other hand, as a programmer/software engineer, the job market I'd be going into is one that contrasts sharply with that of pharmacy, and I'd be able to live in almost any city I want. Sure, I might not be working for Google/Amazon/Facebook/Apple/whoever, but even with that acknowledgement, the prospects for an average programmer/software engineer are still so much better (currently) than they are even for experienced pharmacists. You mentioned that outsourcing could be an issue with software engineering, but that's something I'd need to do more research on.

It just sounds so nice to be able to do a 3-4 month bootcamp and go from scrambling to try and find a pharmacist job SOMEWHERE in the country to being able to get a decent-paying job in a nice city after just a few more months of schooling. It's just a thought for now, but I can't help but admit that it's becoming an increasingly appealing one.

/end wall of text/

glad to see that you finally see thru the facade and be honest with yourself.

I got laughed at and ridiculed by a lot of my classmates when I stopped going to classes and was learning and coding on my own throughout semesters and only showing up to exams. They think I was crazy and delusional. I showed one of my projects to my friend, and he was impressed and joined me soon after. Now as P4s, I bet any of my classmates can still laugh at us any more after both of us got accepted to Georgia Tech OMSCS, and their whole career is in limbo before they even start one lol. Let's wait 2 years and see who can still be laughing then.

hard work is important, but where you apply that hard work is even more important. Not all paths are created equal. Some paths are highly rewarding, yet some are downright leading to nowhere. pharmacy belongs to the later. the earlier you realize this and be honest with yourself and cut loss, the sooner misery ends.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

Appreciate the advice. In regards to contract work, I was told by a pharmacist at my rotation site that there are a couple recruiters out there who will hire new graduates to work at IHS facilities in extremely rural and undesirable areas (think SD/ND/AK), so I was hoping that could be a last-resort option in case all other options fail to pan out. However, I was told the exact same thing as you by recruiters in regards to hospitals in most areas not being willing to consider new graduates; in fact, one recruiter based in the southeast told me that the hospitals he contracts with want pharmacists to have at least 2 years of experience before they'll consider them even for short-term/temporary positions.

On the topic of IHS, I actually applied to a few IHS residencies but haven't heard back regarding interview offers for any of them. A residency program director for one of the sites I applied to said they received around 60 applications for ONE seat... so unless it's one of those situations where over 60% of applications are from extremely sub-par applicants, the odds of matching are less than 2%. Also, you mentioned that you applied to a handful of both IHS and VA positions and never heard back in regards to any of them. I'm currently rotating at a federal hospital on a military base, and that reminds me of something one of my preceptors told me, which is that some IHS and VA facilities receive so many applications that they don't even check the USAjobs.gov repository for submitted applications since they usually have an internal candidate in mind. My understanding is that the only way to get hired at a VA/IHS site without connections or experience is by applying to sites in extremely rural areas (again, places like SD/ND).

Congratulations on getting the BFE hospital job. I agree with you that in a few years it will probably be impossible to get a hospital job even in BFE without residency/experience, just based on the experience I had with contacting hospitals in BFE locations all over the country. If I showed you my "Sent Mail" folder from the period of time spanning October 2019 - December 2019, you'd think I was running some sort of email spam campaign targeting BFE hospital pharmacies. and yet I didn't receive ONE favorable response indicating that they'd be willing to consider a new graduate.

I would also like to respond to the statement you made that in your city of 60k people, there are so many residency-trained pharmacists that the newest residency graduates are having to move out to the BFE areas. I live in a relatively undesirable area of 200k people, and the exact same thing is happening here. At the hospital I worked as an intern at (where I'll also be interviewing for a residency position that I'm not sure I actually want), they graduate 10 residents per year. The most recent group of pharmacists finished the program in June 2019, and the last I heard was that only 3 of them have found jobs so far. The rest are either living with their parents trying to figure out what they want to do or thinking about biting the bullet and applying to retail jobs.

That's one reason I've been giving increasing consideration to the notion of simply switching gears and pursuing something else entirely, such as coding. When I first started pharmacy school, I didn't have any interest in ever living in a large metropolitan city, but over the last few years my mindset has changed and I have started to realize that I would like to live in a much nicer city. Obviously, the chances of that happening as a pharmacist are very slim. On the other hand, as a programmer/software engineer, the job market I'd be going into is one that contrasts sharply with that of pharmacy, and I'd be able to live in almost any city I want. Sure, I might not be working for Google/Amazon/Facebook/Apple/whoever, but even with that acknowledgement, the prospects for an average programmer/software engineer are still so much better (currently) than they are even for experienced pharmacists. You mentioned that outsourcing could be an issue with software engineering, but that's something I'd need to do more research on.

It just sounds so nice to be able to do a 3-4 month bootcamp and go from scrambling to try and find a pharmacist job SOMEWHERE in the country to being able to get a decent-paying job in a nice city after just a few more months of schooling. It's just a thought for now, but I can't help but admit that it's becoming an increasingly appealing one.

/end wall of text/

I had a classmate apply to IHS residencies and it's my understanding that they have their own "match" process that occurs before the ASHP match. So basically if you didn't hear back for interviews by now it's not looking good...

 

[Hedgehog32]

I had a classmate apply to IHS residencies and it's my understanding that they have their own "match" process that occurs before the ASHP match. So basically if you didn't hear back for interviews by now it's not looking good...

Yep, they have their own separate match. And yeah, I figured that the fact I haven't heard back by now is a bad sign.

BTW, on the topic of residencies, I received rejection emails from 3 more programs I applied to the other day. The scary thing is, I only applied to community hospitals (besides the IHS programs) and a few VA hospitals. The only two programs out of the ~15 I applied to that have offered me an interview are the hospital network I worked as an intern at -- it's their policy to interview all current/former employees who apply anyways -- and some no-name community hospital that has a bad reputation for using residents as cheap labor and offers the bare-minimum amount of PTO (10 days, which includes sick days and holidays).

My stats aren't amazing, but you would think I would've at least gotten a few more interviews than that (3.8+ GPA, president of a campus organization, intern work experience in both inpatient and outpatient settings). It will be interesting to see what the match stats look like when they're published in March, as the competition is undoubtedly fierce.

Edited to add: one program I applied to stated in their rejection email that this was their most competitive application cycle ever: they received over 130 applications for 2 spots.

 

[Hedgehog32]

glad to see that you finally see thru the facade and be honest with yourself.

I got laughed at and ridiculed by a lot of my classmates when I stopped going to classes and was learning and coding on my own throughout semesters and only showing up to exams. They think I was crazy and delusional. I showed one of my projects to my friend, and he was impressed and joined me soon after. Now as P4s, I bet any of my classmates can still laugh at us any more after both of us got accepted to Georgia Tech OMSCS, and their whole career is in limbo before they even start one lol. Let's wait 2 years and see who can still be laughing then.

hard work is important, but where you apply that hard work is even more important. Not all paths are created equal. Some paths are highly rewarding, yet some are downright leading to nowhere. pharmacy belongs to the later. the earlier you realize this and be honest with yourself and cut loss, the sooner misery ends.

I'll still try to get something going in pharmacy, but I think I'll at least apply to the UPenn MCIT program just to keep my options open. I also have lots of experience with online coursework, so maybe that will make me a more competitive applicant.

BTW, did you see my other post about the cybersecurity bootcamp? What are your thoughts on cybersecurity careers?

 

[Hels2007]

It will be interesting to see what the match stats look like when they're published in March, as the competition is undoubtedly fierce.

Wouldn't surprise me if half the P4s apply for residencies, since last year was the first truly challenging hiring season, so they should all be suitably nervous and hedging their bets...

 

[Hedgehog32]

Wouldn't surprise me if half the P4s apply for residencies, since last year was the first truly challenging hiring season, so they should all be suitably nervous and hedging their bets...

I think it could end up being even more than half. In my class, there are very few people who have expressed an interest in pursuing retail or other non-clinical positions. Around October-November, rumors started spreading around about how everyone in so-and-so's clique is applying to residencies, everyone in that person's group is applying to residencies, and so on.

It does make me wonder -- if I'm getting rejected left and right by unheard of community hospitals despite being fairly (kinda) competitive, what do the profiles of successful applicants look like? I'm guessing they've got everything on their applications I have on mine, as well as published research, more than one intern position, and apparently several leadership positions.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

I'll still try to get something going in pharmacy, but I think I'll at least apply to the UPenn MCIT program just to keep my options open. I also have lots of experience with online coursework, so maybe that will make me a more competitive applicant.

BTW, did you see my other post about the cybersecurity bootcamp? What are your thoughts on cybersecurity careers?

CS, analytics or cybersecurity all require serious serious time commitment. Trust me when I say this, pharmacy courses are like jokes compared to cs courses, especially at grad level. If you do see yourself going down the programming path, you probably want to switch up your priorities now: pharmacy should be your backup plan, not CS or cybersecurity or whatever you wanna do.

CS is the foundation to everything nowadays: analytics, cybersecurity, blockchain, supply chain management, and quantitative finance. I honestly don't know how a cybersecurity bootcamp works unless they only takes seasoned software engineers. If you don't prior programming experience, It can take at least several months to get comfortable with C++, let alone network threat analysis and other advanced stuff. The only boot camp that I heard has decent job placement rate is Hack reactor. But they don't take newbies. They have admission tests to make sure you know the programming basics and can handle the workflow before taking you in.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

I think it could end up being even more than half. In my class, there are very few people who have expressed an interest in pursuing retail or other non-clinical positions. Around October-November, rumors started spreading around about how everyone in so-and-so's clique is applying to residencies, everyone in that person's group is applying to residencies, and so on.

It does make me wonder -- if I'm getting rejected left and right by unheard of community hospitals despite being fairly (kinda) competitive, what do the profiles of successful applicants look like? I'm guessing they've got everything on their applications I have on mine, as well as published research, more than one intern position, and apparently several leadership positions.

If you don't already know this, then maybe let me remind you. Nepotism and politics are rampant in hospitals. The hospital I am doing my current and last rotation at has pharmacy director's son and several pharmacists' daughter or sons applying to the same hospital's residency. What else do you expect? They may have 3.0 GPA yet still getting matched.

 

[Hedgehog32]

CS, analytics or cybersecurity all require serious serious time commitment. Trust me when I say this, pharmacy courses are like jokes compared to cs courses, especially at grad level. If you do see yourself going down the programming path, you probably want to switch up your priorities now: pharmacy should be your backup plan, not CS or cybersecurity or whatever you wanna do.

CS is the foundation to everything nowadays: analytics, cybersecurity, blockchain, supply chain management, and quantitative finance. I honestly don't know how a cybersecurity bootcamp works unless they only takes seasoned software engineers. If you don't prior programming experience, It can take at least several months to get comfortable with C++, let alone network threat analysis and other advanced stuff. The only boot camp that I heard has decent job placement rate is Hack reactor. But they don't take newbies. They have admission tests to make sure you know the programming basics and can handle the workflow before taking you in.

Yeah, I read about Hack Reactor. They offer a prep course for people who don't have any programming experience. I was also looking into Coding Dojo, which does accept applicants with zero programming knowledge. I think App Academy might as well, but I'm not sure. I was planning on researching others as well. If I do decide to go down the CS path, I think the best move would be to attend UPenn's MCIT program since it's so comprehensive and leads to a legit MS - IF I can get accepted. I heard that UT offers a similar program, which I plan on researching later today.

BTW, here's a link to the cybersecurity bootcamp I mentioned. As you can see, they prefer to take applicants who have CS/IT experience, but it's not an absolute prerequisite:

World-Class Cybersecurity Training | Evolve Academy

On a mission to close the cybersecurity talent gap, our cyber training curriculum and hands-on approach produces best-in-class professionals. Learn more.

www.evolvesecurity.io

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

Yeah, I read about Hack Reactor. They offer a prep course for people who don't have any programming experience. I was also looking into Coding Dojo, which does accept applicants with zero programming knowledge. I think App Academy might as well, but I'm not sure. I was planning on researching others as well. If I do decide to go down the CS path, I think the best move would be to attend UPenn's MCIT program since it's so comprehensive and leads to a legit MS - IF I can get accepted. I heard that UT offers a similar program, which I plan on researching later today.

BTW, here's a link to the cybersecurity bootcamp I mentioned. As you can see, they prefer to take applicants who have CS/IT experience, but it's not an absolute prerequisite:

World-Class Cybersecurity Training | Evolve Academy

On a mission to close the cybersecurity talent gap, our cyber training curriculum and hands-on approach produces best-in-class professionals. Learn more.

www.evolvesecurity.io

MCIT is more expensive program, but it's UPenn. UT Austin program costs 10k, requires GRE and a list of prerequisites.

 

[Hedgehog32]

MCIT is more expensive program, but it's UPenn. UT Austin program costs 10k, requires GRE and a list of prerequisites.

TBH I'm not that worried about cost. I think the UPenn program is like $26k? That sounds like a bargain compared to most pharmacy schools, LOL.

I probably won't apply to the UT program if they have a list of prerequisites (at least not this year). The more I think about it, the more I realize that the MCIT program at UPenn would be the perfect opportunity. I just hope that my lack of a hardcore math background doesn't hurt my chances (the hardest math class I've taken is Applied Calculus). However, I got in touch with a current student in the program, and she said that some of her classmates are English and history majors, so I maybe I'll have a shot after all. All I have to lose is the application fee.

BTW, I know that other universities aren't as well-reputed as schools like UPenn, but what's your opinion on the online masters program at Boston U that I posted the link to the other day? If I graduated from the program, would I still be a competitive candidate for software engineering jobs in general? You have to keep in mind that I'm comparing the software engineering job market to pharmacy's, so if I can get a decent job in a non-BFE city, I'd be happy. I'm not worried about being able to get some super-competitive unicorn job at Google, Amazon, Apple, etc.

Here's a link to the BU program:

Online Learning at Boston University

Boston University Online offers an online Master of Science in Computer Information Systems. Learn more.

www.bu.edu

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

TBH I'm not that worried about cost. I think the UPenn program is like $26k? That sounds like a bargain compared to most pharmacy schools, LOL.

I probably won't apply to the UT program if they have a list of prerequisites (at least not this year). The more I think about it, the more I realize that the MCIT program at UPenn would be the perfect opportunity. I just hope that my lack of a hardcore math background doesn't hurt my chances (the hardest math class I've taken is Applied Calculus). However, I got in touch with a current student in the program, and she said that some of her classmates are English and history majors, so I maybe I'll have a shot after all. All I have to lose is the application fee.

BTW, I know that other universities aren't as well-reputed as schools like UPenn, but what's your opinion on the online masters program at Boston U that I posted the link to the other day? If I graduated from the program, would I still be a competitive candidate for software engineering jobs in general? You have to keep in mind that I'm comparing the software engineering job market to pharmacy's, so if I can get a decent job in a non-BFE city, I'd be happy. I'm not worried about being able to get some super-competitive unicorn job at Google, Amazon, Apple, etc.

Here's a link to the BU program:

Online Learning at Boston University

Boston University Online offers an online Master of Science in Computer Information Systems. Learn more.

www.bu.edu

On reddit, MCIT looks like a tricky program to apply tho, just to let you know. It seems like the UPenn admission committee is very picky. Too much experience or too little will get people rejected either due to over-qualification or non-competitiveness. So it's really hit-and-miss type of admission. So far, I have seen some MDs getting acceptance. They like academically strong applicants as always. So yeah, it really doesn't hurt you, just apply~

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

TBH I'm not that worried about cost. I think the UPenn program is like $26k? That sounds like a bargain compared to most pharmacy schools, LOL.

I probably won't apply to the UT program if they have a list of prerequisites (at least not this year). The more I think about it, the more I realize that the MCIT program at UPenn would be the perfect opportunity. I just hope that my lack of a hardcore math background doesn't hurt my chances (the hardest math class I've taken is Applied Calculus). However, I got in touch with a current student in the program, and she said that some of her classmates are English and history majors, so I maybe I'll have a shot after all. All I have to lose is the application fee.

BTW, I know that other universities aren't as well-reputed as schools like UPenn, but what's your opinion on the online masters program at Boston U that I posted the link to the other day? If I graduated from the program, would I still be a competitive candidate for software engineering jobs in general? You have to keep in mind that I'm comparing the software engineering job market to pharmacy's, so if I can get a decent job in a non-BFE city, I'd be happy. I'm not worried about being able to get some super-competitive unicorn job at Google, Amazon, Apple, etc.

Here's a link to the BU program:

Online Learning at Boston University

Boston University Online offers an online Master of Science in Computer Information Systems. Learn more.

www.bu.edu

For software engineering jobs, graduating from a top CS program with decent GPA will almost always get you an interview opportunity from recruiters, either thru linkedin or referral to one of top tier FAANG companies, or a bunch of 2nd tier IT companies like microsoft, twitter, adobe, ebay, goldman sachs and established startups like slack or uber.

An easy rule of thumb in terms of selecting schools is to look at the CS program rankings.
https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-science-schools/computer-science-rankings

Unlike in consulting or IB, ivy league schools don't carry the extra "aura" when it comes to software engineering jobs. In fact, Carnegie Mellon is consistently ranked No.1 in the nation, and Columbia only comes as No. 13. Whereas, UT Austin is ranked No. 10, and Georgia Tech is ranked No. 8.
BU is ranked No. 49 there. But realistically speaking, as long as you can graduate from a top 50 CS graduate program in the nation with a decent GPA, you will be fine. By that, I mean you will be approached by recruiters on linkedin for interview opportunities from various S&P 500 companies.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

TBH I'm not that worried about cost. I think the UPenn program is like $26k? That sounds like a bargain compared to most pharmacy schools, LOL.

I probably won't apply to the UT program if they have a list of prerequisites (at least not this year). The more I think about it, the more I realize that the MCIT program at UPenn would be the perfect opportunity. I just hope that my lack of a hardcore math background doesn't hurt my chances (the hardest math class I've taken is Applied Calculus). However, I got in touch with a current student in the program, and she said that some of her classmates are English and history majors, so I maybe I'll have a shot after all. All I have to lose is the application fee.

BTW, I know that other universities aren't as well-reputed as schools like UPenn, but what's your opinion on the online masters program at Boston U that I posted the link to the other day? If I graduated from the program, would I still be a competitive candidate for software engineering jobs in general? You have to keep in mind that I'm comparing the software engineering job market to pharmacy's, so if I can get a decent job in a non-BFE city, I'd be happy. I'm not worried about being able to get some super-competitive unicorn job at Google, Amazon, Apple, etc.

Here's a link to the BU program:

Online Learning at Boston University

Boston University Online offers an online Master of Science in Computer Information Systems. Learn more.

www.bu.edu

TBH, even a ****ty software engineering job like front-end app developer is wayyy better than a hospital pharmacist job on realistic terms. Why?

1. Front-end jobs exist everywhere in the nation, and a LOT more opportunities when it comes to metropolitan areas like Seattle, SF, or LA.
Pharmacy? you already said that, residency-trained pharmacists are fighting each other's head off even in BFE cities. Even if you do get a job in BFE, what's the realistic chance that you can eventually move to a desirable area?

2. Salary-wise as the pharmacy job market implodes, what's the average salary? just go to the job section and you can already tell.
Front-end developer? "The average Front-End Developer salary in the United States is $118,832 as of December 26, 2019, but the salary range typically falls between $106,575 and $129,664." That's the official stats. I just quote it

3. Job growth: This is a no-brainer. You can look it up on BLS stats. We are in a tech boom now and in years to come. The economy needs a lot more programmers than druggists.

4. Job security: A lot of people might say CS jobs are insecure and can be outsourced, blah, blah, blah. Okay, is pharmacy job more secure than cs jobs then huh? We are on a pharmacy forum here, so everybody knows what **** is happening in retail and hospital. Does cutting hours and decreasing hourly wage mean job security to anyone? At least not to me. AI will probably make this profession obsolete regardless whether saturation is corrected or not.

So that's just some of my Fridays rant. Enough said.

 

[mentos]

TBH I'm not that worried about cost. I think the UPenn program is like $26k? That sounds like a bargain compared to most pharmacy schools, LOL.

I probably won't apply to the UT program if they have a list of prerequisites (at least not this year). The more I think about it, the more I realize that the MCIT program at UPenn would be the perfect opportunity. I just hope that my lack of a hardcore math background doesn't hurt my chances (the hardest math class I've taken is Applied Calculus). However, I got in touch with a current student in the program, and she said that some of her classmates are English and history majors, so I maybe I'll have a shot after all. All I have to lose is the application fee.

BTW, I know that other universities aren't as well-reputed as schools like UPenn, but what's your opinion on the online masters program at Boston U that I posted the link to the other day? If I graduated from the program, would I still be a competitive candidate for software engineering jobs in general? You have to keep in mind that I'm comparing the software engineering job market to pharmacy's, so if I can get a decent job in a non-BFE city, I'd be happy. I'm not worried about being able to get some super-competitive unicorn job at Google, Amazon, Apple, etc.

Here's a link to the BU program:

Online Learning at Boston University

Boston University Online offers an online Master of Science in Computer Information Systems. Learn more.

www.bu.edu

I admire your backup plan and desire to pursue an profession that's in demand.

Do you have any coding experience? You probably know this already but you basically got it or you don't. I thought I was pretty computer savy when I was 18. But then I took comp sci 101 and couldn't code for ****. I barely passed that class and knew I wasn't cut out for it. There were something like 200 kids in that intro class but only 30-40 made it to graduation at the time. It's not like pharmacy where everybody can study hard and graduate if they put the time in. You actually have to know what you're doing. You can legit get a zero on a coding exam.

 

[Hedgehog32]

I admire your backup plan and desire to pursue an profession that's in demand.

Do you have any coding experience? You probably know this already but you basically got it or you don't. I thought I was pretty computer savy when I was 18. But then I took comp sci 101 and couldn't code for ****. I barely passed that class and knew I wasn't cut out for it. There were something like 200 kids in that intro class but only 30-40 made it to graduation at the time. It's not like pharmacy where everybody can study hard and graduate if they put the time in. You actually have to know what you're doing. You can legit get a zero on a coding exam.

Actually, I don't have any coding experience. I didn't know it was a skill that someone either has or doesn't have (I figured the skillset could be honed and developed like most things). I guess I'll look into doing one of the bootcamp prep courses to make sure I have what it takes. I just figured it was something anyone could "get" if they put in enough effort, considering that there are a handful of people I knew back in high school and college who do coding for a living now who were always regarded to be pretty stupid (not putting them down, just saying).

Also, one of the pharmacy technicians at my rotation site is currently taking the courses for a CS degree and is pretty far along with it despite not having any formal education prior to that, so I have/had high hopes for myself, especially since I'm planning on putting in lots of effort.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

Actually, I don't have any coding experience. I didn't know it was a skill that someone either has or doesn't have (I figured the skillset could be honed and developed like most things). I guess I'll look into doing one of the bootcamp prep courses to make sure I have what it takes. I just figured it was something anyone could "get" if they put in enough effort, considering that there are a handful of people I knew back in high school and college who do coding for a living now who were always regarded to be pretty stupid (not putting them down, just saying).

Also, one of the pharmacy technicians at my rotation site is currently taking the courses for a CS degree and is pretty far along with it despite not having anGoogle. alo education prior to that, so I have/had high hopes for myself, especially since I'm planning on putting in lots of effort.

I concur with this.
One of my high school friends was a decent but definitely not a super smart kid. We shared a lot of math and science classes back then. He was good, but nowhere near impressive. Where is he now 5 years out of college? Google. Where was he before this? Airbnb.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

Programming is a skill set that requires algorithmic thinking to solve problems. It's a craft after all, like any other crafts, which are developed through countless hours of learning by doing. Do people who code for a living have mystic power? Hell no. They just drilled it too many times so they feel comfortable with it.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Programming is a skill set that requires algorithmic thinking to solve problems. It's a craft after all, like any other crafts, which are developed through countless hours of learning by doing. Do people who code for a living have mystic power? Hell no. They just drilled it too many times so they feel comfortable with it.

This is encouraging. Hopefully my overly analytical, hyper-neurotic tendencies will help me do well with learning coding, even if it does take lots of effort on my part. (This is assuming I go down that path in the first place)

 

[mentos]

Programming is a skill set that requires algorithmic thinking to solve problems. It's a craft after all, like any other crafts, which are developed through countless hours of learning by doing. Do people who code for a living have mystic power? Hell no. They just drilled it too many times so they feel comfortable with it.

I'm just saying not everyone can do it, otherwise they wouldn't be offering all those lavish perks to keep employee retention. Anyone can get a PharmD hence the current state of the profession, there is no special skill required just studying. I'd say 99.9% of coders could get a PharmD if they tried, whereas only a small percentage of PharmDs can get a CS degree.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

I'm just saying not everyone can do it, otherwise they wouldn't be offering all those lavish perks to keep employee retention. Anyone can get a PharmD hence the current state of the profession, there is no special skill required just studying. I'd say 99.9% of coders could get a PharmD if they tried, whereas only a small percentage of PharmDs can get a CS degree.

Of course not everyone can do it. It is super frustrating to come up with an efficient algorithm and debug sometimes. While it is also super satisfying when problem is solved, obviously many people quit along the way before they even reach that proficiency threshold level. CS is not hard, but it requires the gut to push even if you have been stuck with that dynamic programming problem for days if not weeks. Most of those who quit CS are not dumb, but they are not persistent, or at least they don't believe they can make it til the end one day .

As a side note, my friend at Google sucked in biology but was doing okay with math and physics, that's why he went for CS in college even if he never programmed in high school. He still thinks I have mystic power to memorize all those long drug names lol.

 

[Hels2007]

My parents were computer programmers (Dad for 50 years, Mom for 20 years), and both intensely disliked the coding aspect of their job, saying it was mind-numbingly boring and required a lot of attention to detail. They moved to project planning and management as soon as they were able. To me it sounded no better than retail pharmacy... I was never interested in IT, though I always loved math, especially algebra and calculus.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

My parents were computer programmers (Dad for 50 years, Mom for 20 years), and both intensely disliked the coding aspect of their job, saying it was mind-numbingly boring and required a lot of attention to detail. They moved to project planning and management as soon as they were able. To me it sounded no better than retail pharmacy... I was never interested in IT, though I always loved math, especially algebra and calculus.

Even if coding is as boring and mind-numbing as retail pharmacy, at least it still has abundant job openings almost everywhere in the country, room for career advancement and promotion, and compensate roughly on par with 40 hour/week retail pharmacy if not better. Of course coding is far from being a perfect dream job. But I am not talking about what makes a perfect job here. I am talking about a career that can support family and pay bills. If pharmacy is so great and fulfilling, why would the OP be concerned with matching and job prospects at all?

 

[Hedgehog32]

My parents were computer programmers (Dad for 50 years, Mom for 20 years), and both intensely disliked the coding aspect of their job, saying it was mind-numbingly boring and required a lot of attention to detail. They moved to project planning and management as soon as they were able. To me it sounded no better than retail pharmacy... I was never interested in IT, though I always loved math, especially algebra and calculus.

I agree that it does sound monotonous and boring, but as pharmacy_sucks alluded to, at this point it's basically about securing a position in a field with a healthy amount of demand that will give me some flexibility regarding where I can live (I.e., largely a pragmatic decision). At this point in my life and with me being in my 30's, I just want to hurry up and settle into a career that will allow me to earn a nice living and move somewhere much nicer. I know that pharmacy was definitely the wrong profession to go into for fulfilling the latter preference, but when I first started pharmacy school, I actually didn't know that's what I would end up wanting. Also, I really, really don't want to have to move to an area that's even less desirable than the one I live in now, which would probably be an inevitability with pharmacy (at least for a few years).

Also, I have kept up with a handful of the c/o 2019 graduates I met last year (when they were completing their P4 rotations) at my intern job, and after seeing so many of them continue to be unemployed (despite, in some of their cases, applying to most/all jobs in the state) almost 9 months later, I would really just feel more comfortable having some kind of backup plan in place, just in case.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

I agree that it does sound monotonous and boring, but as pharmacy_sucks alluded to, at this point it's basically about securing a position in a field with a healthy amount of demand that will give me some flexibility regarding where I can live (I.e., largely a pragmatic decision). At this point in my life and with me being in my 30's, I just want to hurry up and settle into a career that will allow me to earn a nice living and move somewhere much nicer. I know that pharmacy was definitely the wrong profession to go into for fulfilling the latter preference, but when I first started pharmacy school, I actually didn't know that's what I would end up wanting. Also, I really, really don't want to have to move to an area that's even less desirable than the one I live in now, which would probably be an inevitability with pharmacy (at least for a few years).

Also, I have kept up with a handful of the c/o 2019 graduates I met last year (when they were completing their P4 rotations) at my intern job, and after seeing so many of them continue to be unemployed (despite, in some of their cases, applying to most/all jobs in the state) almost 9 months later, I would really just feel more comfortable having some kind of backup plan in place, just in case.

I can imagine how a mid-20 to early-30 yo pharmacy grad feels like, after spending 8+ years in post-secondary education but ending up unemployed almost a year after finishing school. At that point, any "passion for pharmacy" and whatever pharmacy-related fancy dreams become meaningless and bullsh*t. Any work that pay bills is a good one. No matter how boring or unfulfilling, a CS career will be their dream job in paradise, if they are qualified.

 

[Sine Cura]

At some point getting out of pharmacy has to be the plan, not backup.

 

[Mambo#5]

Of course not everyone can do it. It is super frustrating to come up with an efficient algorithm and debug sometimes. While it is also super satisfying when problem is solved, obviously many people quit along the way before they even reach that proficiency threshold level. CS is not hard, but it requires the gut to push even if you have been stuck with that dynamic programming problem for days if not weeks. Most of those who quit CS are not dumb, but they are not persistent, or at least they don't believe they can make it til the end one day .

As a side note, my friend at Google sucked in biology but was doing okay with math and physics, that's why he went for CS in college even if he never programmed in high school. He still thinks I have mystic power to memorize all those long drug names lol.

Winners never quit.

 

[mentos]

I can imagine how a mid-20 to early-30 yo pharmacy grad feels like, after spending 8+ years in post-secondary education but ending up unemployed almost a year after finishing school. At that point, any "passion for pharmacy" and whatever pharmacy-related fancy dreams become meaningless and bullsh*t. Any work that pay bills is a good one. No matter how boring or unfulfilling, a CS career will be their dream job in paradise, if they are qualified.

Exactly, it's called work for a reason. I always laugh when anyone says they have a passion for pharmacy. It's BS from the start.

 

[deleted562805]

Yeah, I was told by the CVS DM I mentioned in my first post that they are officially not considering hiring ANY new graduates who didn't work as retail techs/interns during pharmacy school. I have been told that it's the same with other pharmacy chains.

That's part of my problem -- I only worked as an intern in the hospital setting and never for any chains, so if I don't get a residency position or find a hospital job somewhere in the country, I won't really be marketable for any traditional pharmacy jobs (unless I can get one of the other jobs I mentioned in my OP, like the temp agency assignments).

Yeah, CVS really want pharmacists that can manage a store on their own without tech help. Publix and Costco pharmacists love their jobs, so it will be hard to get those jobs. Your best bet in retail is grad intern in Walgreens.

 

[deleted562805]

If you don't already know this, then maybe let me remind you. Nepotism and politics are rampant in hospitals. The hospital I am doing my current and last rotation at has pharmacy director's son and several pharmacists' daughter or sons applying to the same hospital's residency. What else do you expect? They may have 3.0 GPA yet still getting matched.

Or if you happen to be the son of a well known physician in the hospital and choose to do pharmacy rather than medicine. Interesting, a physician in one of my rotations asked me do you have family that are pharmacists? I said no and he looked at me strangely. He knew family connections mattered in getting a job

 

[deleted562805]

Would be hard to prove this actually happened but it probably did haha I would think this happens to majority of people who apply to residency... worse case is when you're done with residency, you find yourself interviewing at walmart. It's inevitable. lol

And that to me is stupid. The Residency should have a built in network in order to help you get a job, not let you drown. I do not get it. In medicine and nursing, this does not happen. In med school, even if you do not get matched, the school will work with you to get the residency you want by taking gap years for projects etc.

 

[mentos]

Congrats! on getting into Georgia tech.

This forum has multi quote dude.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Yeah, CVS really want pharmacists that can manage a store on their own without tech help. Publix and Costco pharmacists love their jobs, so it will be hard to get those jobs. Your best bet in retail is grad intern in Walgreens.

I'm not sure if this is still the case, but I talked to a few c/o 2019 graduates a few months ago who said that Walgreens hardly had any openings in most non-BFE regions of the southeast and that they were only interviewing experienced pharmacists. Again, that was several months ago, so maybe there are more openings now that the c/o 2019 graduates have been in the job market for a while.

 

[deleted562805]

I'm not sure if this is still the case, but I talked to a few c/o 2019 graduates a few months ago who said that Walgreens hardly had any openings in most non-BFE regions of the southeast and that they were only interviewing experienced pharmacists. Again, that was several months ago, so maybe there are more openings now that the c/o 2019 graduates have been in the job market for a while.

Dang. Well, time to take more law exams, lol. Law exams equals to just another money grab by the BOP

 

[deleted562805]

This forum has multi quote dude.

My bad. @mentos

 

[deleted562805]

Most specialty residencies and informatics residencies are PGY-2s anyway. There is already a glut of PGY-1 trained residents on the market fighting for jobs. I also connected with a few on linkedin, but I don't think I would ever enjoy that type of work.

After talking with numerous grads and current residents, I think residencies, including informatics ones, are full-time, underpaid, overworked, yet absolutely nothing-guaranteed slavery. I don't have any bias against residencies or fellowship programs, but my friend and I share the same view that ROI of CS masters from a decent/prestigious school will trump informatics residencies on any given day while doing same amount of work in 1-2 PGY-years. A good proportion of CS grads from the school we are both heading to is getting internships & offers from Google, Facebook, Amazon and Microsoft, with lucrative base pay, sign-on bonuses and stocks. Yet, I don't think any pharmacy residency training programs would open similar doors for their residents. In fact, I heard more concerns, complaints and worries from pharmacy residents about their immediate future than anything else in my past & current hospital rotations.

btw, Google is actively developing and pushing its cloud healthcare API with integrated analytics and machine learning tools.

Yep. Apparently ASHP views informatics pharmacists as pharmacists that check emails not really software developers or programmers. ASHP actually looks down on Informatic pharmacists

 

[Sparda29]

Really depends where you live. The hospital I work at hires new grads/retail pharmacists for all positions except overnight (they want at least 5 years experience for overnight pharmacists because you're working with one tech and no other pharmacists to help you, in case of a problem, they want you to be able to figure out a solution if it exists in their guidelines or make your own temporary solution until day shift arrives).