How to proceed in the event of not matching for residency?

[Hedgehog32]

So I applied to residency programs last month (more than 10) and have only received interview invitations from 2 of them - the hospital I worked as an intern at and a hospital in another state. Both are medium-sized community hospitals that have somewhat unfavorable reputations for treating their residents poorly (I.e., required staffing every other weekend, long shifts, call, lots of projects, etc.), and at least one of the hospitals only offers 10 days of PTO (including sick time) throughout the entire year.

I have only received 2 rejection emails so far, but at least several of the programs I applied to but haven't heard from have already scheduled a number of interview sessions, so I'll take that as a sign that I most likely will not be receiving an invitation to interview at those programs (I understand that some programs won't even notify applicants that they've been rejected... they simply don't get back to them at all).

So needless to say, things aren't looking too optimistic for me and my chances of matching. It looks like not having any research experience on my CV is hurting my chances even with smaller community hospitals. Then again, I've heard from other students who are way more competitive applicants than me who are also getting rejected, so I'm not sure what's going on. The pharmacists at the hospital I used to work at said they're hearing rumors that this could be the most competitive residency application season in history.

Anyways, what I'm trying to do now is figure out the best way to move forward if I don't end up matching. These are the options I've come up with:

- Apply during Phase 2/scramble (not sure how much better my chances of matching will actually be)
- Try to get a job after graduating at a rural hospital in BFE
- Apply to IHS sites in BFE (I've heard some of them will take new grads with no experience)
- Apply to work for a staffing agency doing short-term (e.g., 3-month) assignments at rural hospitals
- Would like to avoid retail at all costs

The last option is kind of intriguing to me because the idea of being able to work for 3 months, save up the majority of the money I earn minus taxes (the agencies usually pay for housing and offer a per-diem stipend), and then come back home and relax and do what I want for a month before taking another 3-month assignment appeals to me. Then again, I don't know if this would put me at a disadvantage in the future in terms of professional marketability since I'm not sure what DOPs/HR staff think of temp agency experience.

Anyways, any advice or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks

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[zelman]

It’s January P4. You’re just now considering what to do after school if you can’t get a residency? Goddamn.

 

[Hedgehog32]

It’s January P4. You’re just now considering what to do after school if you can’t get a residency? Goddamn.

It's a little more complicated than that. I had been working for a local hospital network as an intern since my P2 year and my managers had been talking about hiring me to work at least on the weekends after my graduation, but a few months ago the hospital administration established a new policy of only hiring residency-trained pharmacists, even for PRN and part-time positions. I was also under the impression that I'd be able to find a hospital job *somewhere* in the US, but I spent a few weeks back in the fall getting in touch with many (probably 50+) hospitals about my chances of getting a job with them upon graduation, but pretty much all of them (even the ones in rural areas) said they were only hiring experienced or residency-trained pharmacists.

I was offered an intern job by a CVS DM last summer, but I turned it down because I just have zero interest in working for CVS and thought I'd have at least some luck trying my hand at getting literally any other kind of pharmacist job.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

Fellow P4 here, just 5 more weeks left to call it done with pharm school~

A friend of mine and I are both heading directly into either computer science or data science masters in August. I am never "clinical" during school, but my friend was quite "clinical" back then, until he realized all efforts spent in hospital in hope of getting residencies, like what you did, probably won't lead to anything for him. So we studied and coded intensively together for the last several years while in school, and good for him, he is feeling much happier now than the rest of the class who chased after residencies, and god knows how the job hunt will look like after residency? There are plenty of unemployed pharm residents, do you know that? Yet everyone we know, including fresh cs undergrads in today's red hot job market, is getting multiple internships in school and job offers months before graduation.

Ever thinking about moving on from pharmacy?

 

[King2440]

You could also drive Uber or Grubhub.
You could work at ihop graveyard shifts.
You could be the summer lifeguard at the neighborhood pool.
You could level up the best hunter in WOW.

Or you could do what 75% of rphs do and work retail. I’m sure you have done your research though on the competitive job market and the need to work PT to even have a chance of landing a retail job.

 

[mentos]

I had a classmate who who planned on doing residency. She was too good for retail. At graduation, I asked where she matched and she said she never did. I asked what she was going to do, and she said she had an interview with with Walmart next week. She defriended a bunch of us on Facebook and we never heard from her again.

Don't be like my classmate.

 

[King2440]

I had a classmate who who planned on doing residency. She was too good for retail. At graduation, I asked where she matched and she said she never did. I asked what she was going to do, and she said she had an interview with with Walmart next week. She defriended a bunch of us on Facebook and we never heard from her again.

Don't be like my classmate.

sad thing is folks cannot wait until graduation to go down the retail path. They must start early. I think it’s personally too late for this candidate. Good luck on their chances on the match.

 

[mentos]

sad thing is folks cannot wait until graduation to go down the retail path. They must start early. I think it’s personally too late for this candidate. Good luck on their chances on the match.

Yup if you're not hired by mid fall then it's hard to get a retail position. Some people get a retail offer as a backup in case they don't match. If they match, they declined the retail offer. Of course they probably get blacklisted from that chain too.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Fellow P4 here, just 5 more weeks left to call it done with pharm school~

A friend of mine and I are both heading directly into either computer science or data science masters in August. I am never "clinical" during school, but my friend was quite "clinical" back then, until he realized all efforts spent in hospital in hope of getting residencies, like what you did, probably won't lead to anything for him. So we studied and coded intensively together for the last several years while in school, and good for him, he is feeling much happier now than the rest of the class who chased after residencies, and god knows how the job hunt will look like after residency? There are plenty of unemployed pharm residents, do you know that? Yet everyone we know, including fresh cs undergrads in today's red hot job market, is getting multiple internships in school and job offers months before graduation.

Ever thinking about moving on from pharmacy?

Ironically enough, I had actually considered looking into a computer/software-related field, just in case things really didn't work out with pharmacy. What's your opinion on coding bootcamps? Are some of them better than others? I heard that some bootcamps will actually let you attend for free, and then after you graduate and find a job, you pay the bootcamp company a percentage of your first-year earnings. Would something like that be a good option?

I would prefer to avoid having to spend another ~2 years in school getting another formal degree, but I guess I'll consider it if I absolutely have to. Do you know of any CS masters programs (or degrees that train people for jobs in similar fields) that don't require the applicant to have a background in programming/CS?

How about something like this:

Online Learning at Boston University

Boston University Online offers an online Master of Science in Computer Information Systems. Learn more.

www.bu.edu

 

[Hedgehog32]

You could also drive Uber or Grubhub.
You could work at ihop graveyard shifts.
You could be the summer lifeguard at the neighborhood pool.
You could level up the best hunter in WOW.

Or you could do what 75% of rphs do and work retail. I’m sure you have done your research though on the competitive job market and the need to work PT to even have a chance of landing a retail job.

Yeah, I was told by the CVS DM I mentioned in my first post that they are officially not considering hiring ANY new graduates who didn't work as retail techs/interns during pharmacy school. I have been told that it's the same with other pharmacy chains.

That's part of my problem -- I only worked as an intern in the hospital setting and never for any chains, so if I don't get a residency position or find a hospital job somewhere in the country, I won't really be marketable for any traditional pharmacy jobs (unless I can get one of the other jobs I mentioned in my OP, like the temp agency assignments).

 

[Hedgehog32]

I had a classmate who who planned on doing residency. She was too good for retail. At graduation, I asked where she matched and she said she never did. I asked what she was going to do, and she said she had an interview with with Walmart next week. She defriended a bunch of us on Facebook and we never heard from her again.

Don't be like my classmate.

It doesn't have anything to do with me having a snobby attitude towards retail. I just didn't want to work in that setting. If anything, I'm envious of my classmates who actually like retail and already have jobs lined up.

 

[beautifulrobot]

My advice is to do as much work as you can with a staffing agency while you simultaneously apply to other permanent jobs, especially if you decide to apply to IHS jobs (you could also include BOP and ICE in your federal pharmacy job search). Even in the best case scenario it can take about 3 months from when you submit your application for a vacancy until you actually start working and get paid when you apply to federal jobs (and that is really more the best case scenario, typically you're looking at 6 months to a year from first contact with the agency to start date). It's always better to have something, including temp work, rather than nothing on your employment history.

Also don't solely rely on USAjobs for your federal job search - reach out to individual pharmacy managers/directors at the locations you're interested in. A list of current vacancies with IHS/BOP/ICE with contact information can be found here: https://dcp.psc.gov/OSG/pharmacy/vacancy.aspx. You could also join the PHS Rx Jobs Listserv to get monthly updates on new vacancies: https://dcp.psc.gov/OSG/pharmacy/listserv.aspx. These jobs are open to both PHS officers and civil servants. USPHS Commissioned Corps is currently accepting applications for pharmacists now.

Also maybe talk to a military recruiter. Active duty pharmacist jobs are far and few in the Armed Forces right now, but you could also consider other career paths in the military (I hear the Space Force is recruiting).

 

[Hedgehog32]

My advice is to do as much work as you can with a staffing agency while you simultaneously apply to other permanent jobs, especially if you decide to apply to IHS jobs (you could also include BOP and ICE in your federal pharmacy job search). Even in the best case scenario it can take about 3 months from when you submit your application for a vacancy until you actually start working and get paid when you apply to federal jobs (and that is really more the best case scenario, typically you're looking at 6 months to a year from first contact with the agency to start date). It's always better to have something, including temp work, rather than nothing on your employment history.

Also don't solely rely on USAjobs for your federal job search - reach out to individual pharmacy managers/directors at the locations you're interested in. A list of current vacancies with IHS/BOP/ICE with contact information can be found here: https://dcp.psc.gov/OSG/pharmacy/vacancy.aspx. You could also join the PHS Rx Jobs Listserv to get monthly updates on new vacancies: https://dcp.psc.gov/OSG/pharmacy/listserv.aspx. These jobs are open to both PHS officers and civil servants. USPHS Commissioned Corps is currently accepting applications for pharmacists now.

Also maybe talk to a military recruiter. Active duty pharmacist jobs are far and few in the Armed Forces right now, but you could also consider other career paths in the military (I hear the Space Force is recruiting).

Thanks for the advice and links to the IHS/BOP/ICE jobs page. I think I'll definitely look into applying temp agency if all else fails (it also sounds kind of fun to spend a few months living somewhere new, even if it is in the middle of nowhere).

So just to clarify, I wouldn't need to already be a federal employee to qualify for some of the jobs on the DCP page you linked to? The only reason I ask is because I tried to cross-search for some of the jobs that are listed on that site to see if I could also find them on USAjobs.gov, but it looks like the few that I searched for aren't cross-listed on both sites, so I wasn't sure if the jobs on the DCP site were only open to applicants who already held federal positions.

I also emailed the person who is listed as the IHS pharmacy recruiter on one of the IHS websites on two different occasions over the last few months regarding my interest in any open positions, but I never heard back from him on either contact attempt. I guess I could try getting back in touch with him.

BTW, you can probably guess that I'm still waiting to hear back on my IHS residency applications. I actually haven't heard back from a single site yet, so I'm not sure if that's an indication that I wasn't selected for an interview or if they're still interviewing IP candidates (it's probably the former).

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

Ironically enough, I had actually considered looking into a computer/software-related field, just in case things really didn't work out with pharmacy. What's your opinion on coding bootcamps? Are some of them better than others? I heard that some bootcamps will actually let you attend for free, and then after you graduate and find a job, you pay the bootcamp company a percentage of your first-year earnings. Would something like that be a good option?

I would prefer to avoid having to spend another ~2 years in school getting another formal degree, but I guess I'll consider it if I absolutely have to. Do you know of any CS masters programs (or degrees that train people for jobs in similar fields) that don't require the applicant to have a background in programming/CS?

Most specialty residencies and informatics residencies are PGY-2s anyway. There is already a glut of PGY-1 trained residents on the market fighting for jobs. I also connected with a few on linkedin, but I don't think I would ever enjoy that type of work.

After talking with numerous grads and current residents, I think residencies, including informatics ones, are full-time, underpaid, overworked, yet absolutely nothing-guaranteed slavery. I don't have any bias against residencies or fellowship programs, but my friend and I share the same view that ROI of CS masters from a decent/prestigious school will trump informatics residencies on any given day while doing same amount of work in 1-2 PGY-years. A good proportion of CS grads from the school we are both heading to is getting internships & offers from Google, Facebook, Amazon and Microsoft, with lucrative base pay, sign-on bonuses and stocks. Yet, I don't think any pharmacy residency training programs would open similar doors for their residents. In fact, I heard more concerns, complaints and worries from pharmacy residents about their immediate future than anything else in my past & current hospital rotations.

btw, Google is actively developing and pushing its cloud healthcare API with integrated analytics and machine learning tools.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Most specialty residencies and informatics residencies are PGY-2s anyway. There is already a glut of PGY-1 trained residents on the market fighting for jobs. I also connected with a few on linkedin, but I don't think I would ever enjoy that type of work.

After talking with numerous grads and current residents, I think residencies, including informatics ones, are full-time, underpaid, overworked, yet absolutely nothing-guaranteed slavery. I don't have any bias against residencies or fellowship programs, but my friend and I share the same view that ROI of CS masters from a decent/prestigious school will trump informatics residencies on any given day while doing same amount of work in 1-2 PGY-years. A good proportion of CS grads from the school we are both heading to is getting internships & offers from Google, Facebook, Amazon and Microsoft, with lucrative base pay, sign-on bonuses and stocks. Yet, I don't think any pharmacy residency training programs would open similar doors for their residents. In fact, I heard more concerns, complaints and worries from pharmacy residents about their immediate future than anything else in my past & current hospital rotations.

btw, Google is actively developing and pushing its cloud healthcare API with integrated analytics and machine learning tools.

I'm definitely willing to leave all options on the table. Do you know of any CS programs (or programs that train people for similar careers) that are geared towards people who don't already have computer science backgrounds at the undergraduate level? My bachelors degree is in biology, so I don't have any sort of CS background.

This isn't a CS masters degree, but it looks like it might be more feasible as an entry-level masters program for someone who doesn't have a CS background:

Online Learning at Boston University

Boston University Online offers an online Master of Science in Computer Information Systems. Learn more.

www.bu.edu

Do you think something like that might be a good option?

 

[beautifulrobot]

Some of the vacancies posted on the DCP site are not posted on USAJobs for various reasons, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are open to current fed employees only (even jobs that are open to current fed employees only are usually still posted on USAJobs).

Sorry you haven't heard back from the IHS recruiter. They may just have been out of the office (common during the holiday season), or maybe your email got lost in their inbox. One thing I've learned is that persistence (and resilience) is key when trying to obtain a federal job. Keep emailing them, with the understanding that they may have many collateral duties and are simply overwhelmed. If they have a phone number maybe try calling them as well?

Did you receive any kind of confirmation from IHS that your complete residency application packet was received? If not, it might be worthwhile checking in and making sure they have everything and that they aren't overlooking your application.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

Online Learning at Boston University

Boston University Online offers an online Master of Science in Computer Information Systems. Learn more.

www.bu.edu

I'm definitely willing to leave all options on the table. Do you know of any CS programs (or programs that train people for similar careers) that are geared towards people who don't already have computer science backgrounds at the undergraduate level? My bachelors degree is in biology, so I don't have any sort of CS background.

This isn't a CS masters degree, but it looks like it might be more feasible as an entry-level masters program for someone who doesn't have a CS background:

Online Learning at Boston University

Boston University Online offers an online Master of Science in Computer Information Systems. Learn more.

www.bu.edu

Do you think something like that might be a good option?

There is one online entry-level program called MCIT offered by University of Pennsylvania, and yeah it's the Ivy League school. But I heard it's quite competitive now, <20% admission rate.

Most CS masters program I know of don't admit people having no CS backgrounds. Arizona State University/Georgia Tech/UIUC offers online CS masters, but at least you are required to complete a set of undergrad cs foundation coursework before they consider you, like calculus iii, linear algebra, programming languages, algorithms, data structure, computer organization and operating systems, etc if you don't have a formal cs undergrad degree.

 

[Hedgehog32]

There is one online entry-level program called MCIT offered by University of Pennsylvania, and yeah it's the Ivy League school. But I heard it's quite competitive now, <20% admission rate.

Most CS masters program I know of don't admit people having no CS backgrounds. Arizona State University/Georgia Tech/UIUC offers online CS masters, but at least you are required to complete a set of undergrad cs foundation coursework before they consider you, like calculus iii, linear algebra, programming languages, algorithms, data structure, computer organization and operating systems, etc if you don't have a formal cs undergrad degree.

Aside from CS, are there any other other similar in-demand professions you'd recommend pursuing that I would be a candidate for without a specialized background? Did you see the link I posted to the program offered by BU? Here it is again, just in case. It sounds like it might be a better option for someone who doesn't have any sort of CS background:

Online Learning at Boston University

Boston University Online offers an online Master of Science in Computer Information Systems. Learn more.

www.bu.edu

Georgia Tech also has an online cybersecurity MS that you don't need a specialized background for.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Some of the vacancies posted on the DCP site are not posted on USAJobs for various reasons, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are open to current fed employees only (even jobs that are open to current fed employees only are usually still posted on USAJobs).

Sorry you haven't heard back from the IHS recruiter. They may just have been out of the office (common during the holiday season), or maybe your email got lost in their inbox. One thing I've learned is that persistence (and resilience) is key when trying to obtain a federal job. Keep emailing them, with the understanding that they may have many collateral duties and are simply overwhelmed. If they have a phone number maybe try calling them as well?

Did you receive any kind of confirmation from IHS that your complete residency application packet was received? If not, it might be worthwhile checking in and making sure they have everything and that they aren't overlooking your application.

I did receive confirmations from the sites I applied to after I initially submitted my application materials, so I guess I'll just keep waiting to hear back either way. I might also consider getting in touch with some of the hiring contacts listed for the positions on the DCP page you posted the link to and ask them if I'd qualify for their posted position as a new grad.

 

[mentos]

It doesn't have anything to do with me having a snobby attitude towards retail. I just didn't want to work in that setting. If anything, I'm envious of my classmates who actually like retail and already have jobs lined up.

I'm just saying if you don't have a job by now then beggars can't be choosers.

 

[beautifulrobot]

I might also consider getting in touch with some of the hiring contacts listed for the positions on the DCP page you posted the link to and ask them if I'd qualify for their posted position as a new grad.

...or just tell them that you're very interested in the job for XYZ reasons and that you think you will be a great candidate for the job, attach your resume, and let them know you have references available upon request Make it easy for them to consider you for the position rather than approaching them with a bunch of questions where they have more opportunities to simply say "no".

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

Aside from CS, are there any other other similar in-demand professions you'd recommend pursuing that I would be a candidate for without a specialized background? Did you see the link I posted to the program offered by BU? Here it is again, just in case. It sounds like it might be a better option for someone who doesn't have any sort of CS background:

Online Learning at Boston University

Boston University Online offers an online Master of Science in Computer Information Systems. Learn more.

www.bu.edu

Georgia Tech also has an online cybersecurity MS that you don't need a specialized background for.

I actually thought about dropping out in my P2 year, but I stayed on and didn't care about pharmacy ever since really and just focused on my career pivot and learning all the CS prereqs .

Sad to say it cuz I am also part of this. Despite all the fancy bullsh*t schools love to repeat over and over to attract applicants, there is really nothing much else pharmacists are qualified to do without further training. Research jobs? most require masters or PhD and several years of experience. Insurance & Government? requires insider contacts and years of experience on the job. Pharmaceutical supply chain? requires years on the job or degree in supply chain management or operations research.

Pivot from pharmacy is definitely not easy. That's why you hear stories of Florida pharmacists driving uber to make ends meet. If you are very tech-oriented and serious about CS or its application in healthcare field, like my friend and I, I would highly encourage you to go back to school to complete those prereqs then apply for CS masters. If you want direct patient care, I think nursing might even be better than pharmacy in terms of career opportunities and pay. But they all require some sort of further schooling for sure.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

Aside from CS, are there any other other similar in-demand professions you'd recommend pursuing that I would be a candidate for without a specialized background? Did you see the link I posted to the program offered by BU? Here it is again, just in case. It sounds like it might be a better option for someone who doesn't have any sort of CS background:

Online Learning at Boston University

Boston University Online offers an online Master of Science in Computer Information Systems. Learn more.

www.bu.edu

Georgia Tech also has an online cybersecurity MS that you don't need a specialized background for.

I don't really know much about BU so I can't comment much on that. BU isn't really known for its CS department. Just comparing the curricula, online UIUC/Georgia Tech/UT Austin and even ASU seem to have better course offerings at grad level, compared to BU. The course offering by BU, through the URL you attached, look more like undergrad education to me, yet it is more expensive than everybody else.

 

[PharmtoCS]

I had a classmate who who planned on doing residency. She was too good for retail. At graduation, I asked where she matched and she said she never did. I asked what she was going to do, and she said she had an interview with with Walmart next week. She defriended a bunch of us on Facebook and we never heard from her again.

Don't be like my classmate.

Sounds like a great poster child for my thread 2000 Days of Pharmacy: 500 Days of Summer, Pharmacy Edition (expectations vs reality).

2000 Days of Pharmacy: 500 Days of Summer, Pharmacy Edition (expectations vs reality)

Expectations Reality P1 President of 3 clubs, intern in hospital pharmacy, 3.8 GPA General of one club, hospital pharmacy intern, 3.8 GPA P2 Completed summer internship in pharmaceutical industry, still president of 3 clubs Overwhelmed with school, had to quit internship, GPA 2.3, steps foot...

forums.studentdoctor.net

It doesn't have anything to do with me having a snobby attitude towards retail. I just didn't want to work in that setting. If anything, I'm envious of my classmates who actually like retail and already have jobs lined up.

Doesn't matter if you don't "want" to work in retail since that is where the vast majority of jobs available to pharmacists are and where most end up.

At this point you're pretty much SOL. You need to include retail jobs along with your non-retail jobs in your nationwide job hunt if you ever want to work as a pharmacist. The longer you sit unemployed trying to search for your unicorn job the less employable you will become for any pharmacist job, retail or not.

 

[Hedgehog32]

...or just tell them that you're very interested in the job for XYZ reasons and that you think you will be a great candidate for the job, attach your resume, and let me know you have references available upon request Make it easy for them to consider you for the position rather than approaching them with a bunch of questions where they have more opportunities to simply say "no".

Thanks, that makes a lot more sense; I'll just prepare a formal offer letter, send it to them, and see what happens.

 

[Hedgehog32]

I don't really know much about BU so I can't comment much on that. BU isn't really known for its CS department. Just comparing the curricula, online UIUC/Georgia Tech/UT Austin and even ASU seem to have better course offerings at grad level, compared to BU. The course offering by BU, through the URL you attached, look more like undergrad education to me, yet it is more expensive than everybody else.

What's your opinion on coding bootcamps?

 

[Hedgehog32]

Sounds like a great poster child for my thread 2000 Days of Pharmacy: 500 Days of Summer, Pharmacy Edition (expectations vs reality).

2000 Days of Pharmacy: 500 Days of Summer, Pharmacy Edition (expectations vs reality)

Expectations Reality P1 President of 3 clubs, intern in hospital pharmacy, 3.8 GPA General of one club, hospital pharmacy intern, 3.8 GPA P2 Completed summer internship in pharmaceutical industry, still president of 3 clubs Overwhelmed with school, had to quit internship, GPA 2.3, steps foot...

forums.studentdoctor.net

Doesn't matter if you don't "want" to work in retail since that is where the vast majority of jobs available to pharmacists are and where most end up.

At this point you're pretty much SOL. You need to include retail jobs along with your non-retail jobs in your nationwide job hunt if you ever want to work as a pharmacist. The longer you sit unemployed trying to search for your unicorn job the less employable you will become for any pharmacist job, retail or not.

Well, one reason I haven't found a job yet is because I'm still a P4, so it's not like I'm unemployed but ready to work. I'm just trying to be as proactive as possible so that I won't be in this position 6+ months after graduation.

What about LTC jobs? Do they typically consider new grads?

 

[Hels2007]

My approach in case of not matching would have been:
- scramble
- apply for any job that seems remotely interesting for which I am at least somewhat qualified

That includes jobs not requiring a pharmacist license but where a pharmacist's knowledge and/or a graduate degree may be useful. And definitely search broadly in terms of geography, everyone I personally know who has had a hard time finding a decent job (this is not just pharmacists, broadly) were really restricted in terms of having to stay within a particular area (i.e. care for a sick parent, custody agreement after a divorce, etc.).

 

[Hedgehog32]

My approach in case of not matching would have been:
- scramble
- apply for any job that seems remotely interesting for which I am at least somewhat qualified

That includes jobs not requiring a pharmacist license but where a pharmacist's knowledge and/or a graduate degree may be useful. And definitely search broadly in terms of geography, everyone I personally know who has had a hard time finding a decent job (this is not just pharmacists, broadly) were really restricted in terms of having to stay within a particular area (i.e. care for a sick parent, custody agreement after a divorce, etc.).

Appreciate the advice. One reason I'm worried is because when I got in touch with hospital DOPs/recruiters from all over the country back in October and November, they pretty much all told me the same thing about residency and/or experience being a pre-requisite even for PT and PRN positions, so that's why I'm even more worried now. I'm also looking into avenues that might allow me to transition into other fields in a relatively short period of time, such as coding bootcamps. I guess another option could be to apply for entry-level med affairs/drug info positions. There are also online master's degrees offered by schools like GA Tech that don't require any sort of specialized background, so I might look into those as well.

 

[greenteapanacea]

Appreciate the advice. One reason I'm worried is because when I got in touch with hospital DOPs/recruiters from all over the country back in October and November, they pretty much all told me the same thing about residency and/or experience being a pre-requisite even for PT and PRN positions, so that's why I'm even more worried now. I'm also looking into avenues that might allow me to transition into other fields in a relatively short period of time, such as coding bootcamps. I guess another option could be to apply for entry-level med affairs/drug info positions. There are also online master's degrees offered by schools like GA Tech that don't require any sort of specialized background, so I might look into those as well.

Not sure what state you're from, but many hospitals in the suburbs/rural areas (outside of California) do not require residency for per diem or part time hires. They do require experience though - retail or inpatient.

 

[zelman]

...I spent a few weeks back in the fall getting in touch with many (probably 50+) hospitals about my chances of getting a job with them upon graduation...

Here's an incomplete list of hospitals in Massachusetts: List of hospitals in Massachusetts - Wikipedia

There's over 180 of them on that list. You contacted 50 nationwide and have given up?

 

[Hedgehog32]

Here's an incomplete list of hospitals in Massachusetts: List of hospitals in Massachusetts - Wikipedia

There's over 180 of them on that list. You contacted 50 nationwide and have given up?

No, it wasn't 50 individual hospitals, but a mix of over 50 individual hospitals and as well as every hospital network in the country. Some of the hospital networks own the vast majority of hospitals in certain states/regions (for example, Banner Health in AZ), in addition to the larger networks like HCA and Tenet Healthcare. I was told by a recruiter with Banner that they've been receiving over 40+ applications even for their hospital positions that are posted in BFE locations. I even got in touch with the DOP for a rural hospital in Alaska (think Barrow, Bethel, etc.) who said they weren't considering new graduates for any positions right now because their last few job postings received multiple applications from experienced pharmacists.

I just figured that after being told by DOPs/HR personnel from every single hospital network in the country that they weren't hiring new grads, it was a pretty reliable indicator of what the new entry-level criteria had become for hospital pharmacist jobs. The personnel from every single smaller, independent hospital I got in touch with told me the same thing). Not exaggerating at all when I say that there wasn't a single hospital staff member who said that they'd be willing to hire new grads (not saying they're not out there, just that I didn't happen to find any).

@Pharmacy is a Scam can probably comment here, as they've remarked in the past on how the job market for hospital pharmacist positions has gotten much more competitive in recent years.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Not sure what state you're from, but many hospitals in the suburbs/rural areas (outside of California) do not require residency for per diem or part time hires. They do require experience though - retail or inpatient.

I think that's the catch 22... it's like the owner of a staffing agency told me: even for temporary hospital staffing assignments, they want at least 2 years of hospital pharmacy experience, but how can someone get the experience in the first place if nobody will hire them in the first place?

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

What's your opinion on coding bootcamps?

I wouldn't trust any bootcamps unless I am super super desperate, but obviously I am not right now. UIUC/Georgia Tech/UT Austin CS masters are dirt cheap and can definitely be completed within 2 year timeframe even if doing it part-time. You just need to commit and plan well. Why bootcamps then? I am approaching CS masters as if it is my residency lol. Much less risk but much higher reward tho.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

I think that's the catch 22... it's like the owner of a staffing agency told me: even for temporary hospital staffing assignments, they want at least 2 years of hospital pharmacy experience, but how can someone get the experience in the first place if nobody will hire them in the first place?

well, that's the exact reason for why my friend and I decided to forgo the chase for residency in the first place. It is just too much risk and absolutely doesn't guarantee anything. Time should be better spent on something else really.

 

[Hedgehog32]

I wouldn't trust any bootcamps unless I am super super desperate, but obviously I am not right now. UIUC/Georgia Tech/UT Austin CS masters are dirt cheap and can definitely be completed within 2 year timeframe even if doing it part-time. You just need to commit and plan well. Why bootcamps then? I am approaching CS masters as if it is my residency lol. Much less risk but much higher reward tho.

My only point of apprehension with doing a formal CS masters degree is the hardcore math; I have never really been a "math person" and would rather avoid taking a bunch of extremely hard advanced math classes (if I can avoid them). When I was in undergrad, the most advanced math class I took was Applied Calculus. I understand that traditional coders (like coding bootcamps prepare people to become) don't make as much money as advanced software engineers whose work involves more advanced math, but I'm okay with that. If you know of any masters programs offered by any universities in coding/IT/any tech discipline that don't require someone to be proficient with advanced math, I would definitely be interested in learning more about it.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

My only point of apprehension with doing a formal CS masters degree is the hardcore math; I have never really been a "math person" and would rather avoid taking a bunch of extremely hard advanced math classes (if I can avoid them). When I was in undergrad, the most advanced math class I took was Applied Calculus. I understand that traditional coders (like coding bootcamps prepare people to become) don't make as much money as advanced software engineers whose work involves more advanced math, but I'm okay with that. If you know of any masters programs offered by any universities in coding/IT/any tech discipline that don't require someone to be proficient with advanced math, I would definitely be interested in learning more about it.

My friend is a hardcore math person. In fact, he majored in math lol. For that, I never understood why he was in pharmacy. anyways, I am fairly good at math, but definitely at not his level. As far as math goes for CS, you only need some basic calculus, linear algebra and discrete math. It is actually not as intimidating as a lot of people make it sounds. And you only need to use math in a very straight forward manner. Mostly to analyze the efficiency of algorithms, to find the big O. That's probably it. Unless you want to specialize in machine learning, then you actually need to understand linear algebra and some calculus iii. But again, very straight forward manner, not to ask you to prove or do some crazy derivations, only to understand the concept so that you can implement the algorithm in a language of your choice.

 

[Hedgehog32]

My friend is a hardcore math person. In fact, he majored in math lol. For that, I never understood why he was in pharmacy. anyways, I am fairly good at math, but definitely at not his level. As far as math goes for CS, you only need some basic calculus, linear algebra and discrete math. It is actually not as intimidating as a lot of people make it sounds. And you only need to use math in a very straight forward manner. Mostly to analyze the efficiency of algorithms, to find the big O. That's probably it. Unless you want to specialize in machine learning, then you actually need to understand linear algebra and some calculus iii. But again, very straight forward manner, not to ask you to prove or do some crazy derivations, only to understand the concept so that you can implement the algorithm in a language of your choice.

That's good to hear. So if I did a coding bootcamp, I'm assuming they would just teach me the specific math content I need to know throughout the duration of the bootcamp? (since I haven't taken any hardcore math classes)

Would my lack of a hardcore math background make me less competitive for the MCIT program offered by UofP? I know you said it's really competitive already...

BTW, do you know anything about the cybersecurity job market? GA Tech has an online MS in Cybersecurity that doesn't require applicants to have a specific background, so maybe that's another option.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

That's good to hear. So if I did a coding bootcamp, I'm assuming they would just teach me the specific math content I need to know throughout the duration of the bootcamp? (since I haven't taken any hardcore math classes)

Would my lack of a hardcore math background make me less competitive for the MCIT program offered by UofP? I know you said it's really competitive already...

BTW, do you know anything about the cybersecurity job market? GA Tech has an online MS in Cybersecurity that doesn't require applicants to have a specific background, so maybe that's another option.

boot camps won't teach you math. it will only introduce you to HTML CSS and JavaScript and maybe some frameworks likes react then that's probably it. that's why I won't consider boot camps cuz it charges a lot but usually underdelivers. it also won't help you pass the initial HR screen of big IT firms like Google or Amazon.

MCIT, I don't know really. You might have to try applying and see.

I will be doing Gatech OMSCS LOL. If it isn't this pharmacy thing, I probably would not have to defer and take care of my rotations first. ugggggh

I don't know much about gatech OMS cyber security. But I think it is definitely not for beginners. a lot of their courses were taken directly from OMSCS, and they will require you to be proficient in C++ and some operating system knowledge as prerequisites.

 

[greenteapanacea]

I think my suggestion to get a retail job, then get a hospital per diem went straight over this guy's head.

 

[Hedgehog32]

boot camps won't teach you math. it will only introduce you to HTML CSS and JavaScript and maybe some frameworks likes react then that's probably it. that's why I won't consider boot camps cuz it charges a lot but usually underdelivers. it also won't help you pass the initial HR screen of big IT firms like Google or Amazon.

MCIT, I don't know really. You might have to try applying and see.

I will be doing Gatech OMSCS LOL. If it isn't this pharmacy thing, I probably would not have to defer and take care of my rotations first. ugggggh

I don't know much about gatech OMS cyber security. But I think it is definitely not for beginners. a lot of their courses were taken directly from OMSCS, and they will require you to be proficient in C++ and some operating system knowledge as prerequisites.

That's why I think a coding bootcamp could be a good entry-level option for someone like me, even if I would eventually go on to undertake more advanced coursework for better job opportunities in the future. I'm okay with not being able to get a job right of school (or possibly ever?) at a high-profile company like Google or Amazon. If my only options in pharmacy end up being retail in BFE, *maybe* residency (but probably not if I'm being 100% realistic), or possibly a BFE hospital job (although I have yet to find a single hospital that said they'd be willing to hire a new graduate)... well, you can see how a "standard issue" coding/tech job in a nice city doesn't sound like such a bad alternative.

I was actually doing some research on coding bootcamps a few hours ago, and one of them (Coding Dojo) trains their students on three stacks. Is that a... good sign?

Anyways, at this point, I'm just leaving all options on the table, which is why I was looking into the coding bootcamps.

 

[Hedgehog32]

I think my suggestion to get a retail job, then get a hospital per diem went straight over this guy's head.

I'm just not convinced that I'll be able to have a long-term future in hospital pharmacy without doing a residency first. There was actually a PRN job posted for a local hospital here, and they ended up hiring someone with residency training even for that.

BTW, I'm not sure about my chances of getting a retail job at this point. The CVS DM I talked with last summer said she wasn't hiring anyone who didn't work as an intern/technician for CVS or who didn't have previous chain retail experience. Have heard it's the same deal with Walgreen but not 100% sure.

 

[Rockinacoustic]

You should absolutely still be on the job hunt until you've secured a residency position or your ideal job.

Your logical course at this juncture should be doing well at your residency interviews, grinding it out for a year, getting your desired job, then using your off days to learn to code via whatever program is worthwhile. Heck your employer may even pay for graduate tuition.

 

[Hedgehog32]

You should absolutely still be on the job hunt until you've secured a residency position or your ideal job.

Your logical course at this juncture should be doing well at your residency interviews, grinding it out for a year, getting your desired job, then using your off days to learn to code via whatever program is worthwhile. Heck your employer may even pay for graduate tuition.

That would be great (the part about the employer paying tuition). I just wasn't sure if (depending on how my residency interviews - or lack thereof - go) it might be a good idea to go ahead and start looking into alternative options, just in case. The number of c/o 2019 graduates I've talked to recently who have told me they still haven't been able to find a job is really disconcerting, so I'd almost rather have something else at least lined up (whether that's a coding bootcamp, a tech-related master's program, or whatever) than find myself in their position this time next year. Definitely going to look into options with temp/staffing agencies as well, as there's nothing in terms of logistics that will be holding me back from working (for example) a 3-month temporary assignment somewhere in the country.

 

[gwarm01]

Both are medium-sized community hospitals that have somewhat unfavorable reputations for treating their residents poorly (I.e., required staffing every other weekend, long shifts, call, lots of projects, etc.), and at least one of the hospitals only offers 10 days of PTO (including sick time) throughout the entire year.

These are pretty standard working conditions for residency. It's not supposed to be glamorous or prestigious, it's supposed to be difficult and arduous. That's how, legends have it, you supposedly gain three years of work experience in one calendar year.

It sounds to me like you have two chances to interview well and continue down the path of hospital pharmacy.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

That's why I think a coding bootcamp could be a good entry-level option for someone like me, even if I would eventually go on to undertake more advanced coursework for better job opportunities in the future. I'm okay with not being able to get a job right of school (or possibly ever?) at a high-profile company like Google or Amazon. If my only options in pharmacy end up being retail in BFE, *maybe* residency (but probably not if I'm being 100% realistic), or possibly a BFE hospital job (although I have yet to find a single hospital that said they'd be willing to hire a new graduate)... well, you can see how a "standard issue" coding/tech job in a nice city doesn't sound like such a bad alternative.

I was actually doing some research on coding bootcamps a few hours ago, and one of them (Coding Dojo) trains their students on three stacks. Is that a... good sign?

Anyways, at this point, I'm just leaving all options on the table, which is why I was looking into the coding bootcamps.

If you are not concerned with the negative stigma associated with coding bootcamps and okay with the price they charge, yeah, you can do boot camps. At least that's an option.

 

[Hedgehog32]

These are pretty standard working conditions for residency. It's not supposed to be glamorous or prestigious, it's supposed to be difficult and arduous. That's how, legends have it, you supposedly gain three years of work experience in one calendar year.

It sounds to me like you have two chances to interview well and continue down the path of hospital pharmacy.

I guess we'll see how it goes. I had been hoping to interview at either a VA facility or one of the hospitals I applied to that only requires residents to staff every fourth weekend and offers a dedicated research project rotation (as opposed to making it a longitudinal rotation), but it sounds like that's not going to happen.

 

[Hedgehog32]

If you are not concerned with the negative stigma associated with coding bootcamps and okay with the price they charge, yeah, you can do boot camps. At least that's an option.

Like I said above, at this point I'm leaving pretty much all options open. Just out of curiosity, do you know of any other tech industry jobs that are in extremely high demand aside from software engineer/coder that someone without a tech background wouldn't have too difficult of a time transitioning into?

One of my cousins works as a database engineer (or something like that -- he's also referred to the position as "sys admin") for Cisco and makes around $120k working from home, so that's also an option to look into.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

Like I said above, at this point I'm leaving pretty much all options open. Just out of curiosity, do you know of any other tech industry jobs that are in extremely high demand aside from software engineer/coder that someone without a tech background wouldn't have too difficult of a time transitioning into?

One of my cousins works as a database engineer (or something like that -- he's also referred to the position as "sys admin") for Cisco and makes around $120k working from home, so that's also an option to look into.

data analysts or data scientists are also quite in demand, but not as good as software engineers. I did a thorough career path research a few years back, this is pretty much it.

rules of thumb: low entry barriers/easy to break in usually mean not in demand. pharmacy is already an prime example lol.

 

[gwarm01]

I guess we'll see how it goes. I had been hoping to interview at either a VA facility or one of the hospitals I applied to that only requires residents to staff every fourth weekend and offers a dedicated research project rotation (as opposed to making it a longitudinal rotation), but it sounds like that's not going to happen.

For what it's worth, I would consider a large staffing component to be a benefit. Only staffing every fourth weekend means you graduate the program with 24 days of staffing under your belt, or about 5 weeks of experience.

Your school, professors, and plenty of other pharmacists will say otherwise, but I believe that staffing experience is crucial for your development and can be more important than your clinical rotations. Your administrative projects, research, posters, etc. probably won't directly translate into useful skills. One month in the ICU won't make you an intensivist, and neither will one month in HemOnc make you an oncology specialist. You are getting the Cliff's notes version of these clinical areas and will graduate with a broad but shallow pool of knowledge. You then will most likely take a job in a staffing or hybrid position, where a large portion of your work involves managing technicians, balancing workloads, verifying orders in a timely manner, and making clinical interventions.

Staffing can be sensory overload, especially when you are new and working evening shifts (covering half the hospital by yourself). You can't get stuck with decision paralysis when you have multiple new admissions, phone calls coming in, and a batch that needs to be checking.

I guess what I'm saying is don't see having to staff every other weekend as a bad thing.