How to figure out if your program of interest is DO friendly

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

Lesson #1

If your program has a FAQ page with answers like this, it is probably not DO friendly. This is from NYU Langone's Department of Medicine
Frequently Asked Questions | Department of Medicine

6. Do you accept international medical graduates?
Yes, we accept international graduates. IMGS must have graduated within five years and must have at least 1 year of clinical experience in the United States in the form of direct patient care. Observerships do not qualify. We require ECFMG certification at the time of application.

vs

10. Do you accept Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine graduates?
Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine candidates are encouraged to apply via the Electronic Residency Application Service (ERAS). Qualified applications will be granted interviews in accordance with ERAS policy and procedure.

See the difference? I can see they tried

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[Goro]

Lesson #1

If your program has a FAQ page with answers like this, it is probably not DO friendly. This is from NYU Langone's Department of Medicine
Frequently Asked Questions | Department of Medicine

6. Do you accept international medical graduates?
Yes, we accept international graduates. IMGS must have graduated within five years and must have at least 1 year of clinical experience in the United States in the form of direct patient care. Observerships do not qualify. We require ECFMG certification at the time of application.

vs

10. Do you accept Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine graduates?
Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine candidates are encouraged to apply via the Electronic Residency Application Service (ERAS). Qualified applications will be granted interviews in accordance with ERAS policy and procedure.

See the difference? I can see they tried

In politics, this is called spin.

 

[alprazoslam]

They are probably missing out on quality applicants. Their loss. Probably a FMG PD. Not clicking to see if I’m right but a lot of DO hate comes from those who never had to sit for mcat. Aka FMGlols


Plus who wants to go to New York anyway

 

[libertyyne]

This is an academic program. Not sure if you are just expecting to waltz into one from a DO school. Do the work apply, and find out. The IMGs is like a chief resident from the UK. There were 170~ish DO's qualified to apply for this program in the IM pool in 2018. Who knows if any of them even applied? And who knows if they had the appropriate letters and research?

 

[atomheart]

This is an academic program. Not sure if you are just expecting to waltz into one from a DO school. Do the work apply, and find out. The IMGs is like a chief resident from the UK. There were 170~ish DO's qualified to apply for this program in the IM pool in 2018. Who knows if any of them even applied? And who knows if they had the appropriate letters and research?

0.0% DO? WHO KNOWS?????

The ERAS app money sent in by DOs goes into the holiday party fund.

 

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

0.0% DO? WHO KNOWS?????

The ERAS app money sent in by DOs goes into the holiday party fund.

At least it’s going to a good cause

 

[FourniersGreenGang]

0.0% DO? WHO KNOWS?????

The ERAS app money sent in by DOs goes into the holiday party fund.

That info if from Freida. Lots of programs do not put DOs separately in there. Not saying that's the case with that particular program, but others have DOs and it isn't reflected on Freida.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

Yeah NYUs main IM residency is emphatically not DO friendly. They do take FMGs from first world countries (IIRC there are a couple residents from the UK and Ireland) but no DOs, or Carib grads TBH.

 

[atomheart]

That info if from Freida. Lots of programs do not put DOs separately in there. Not saying that's the case with that particular program, but others have DOs and it isn't reflected on Freida.

Lots of "maybes" and "who knows" in this thread. You can be the one who chooses to apply to every program and throw money away. Personally, I used a combination of data, feedback from previous years, SDN interview spreadsheets, and website info to determine if I would be selected for an interview at a program of interest.

Of course there's always someone who says to make sure to apply to a reach because 'you never know'. I was not 'pleasantly surprised' this season when I received no communication from the programs with 0% DOs.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

The ERAS app money sent in by DOs goes into the holiday party fund.

Keeping it real, programs get NONE of your ERAS fees. So perhaps that money goes into the AAMC holiday party, but it doesn't go into NYU's funds.

 

[FourniersGreenGang]

Lots of "maybes" and "who knows" in this thread. You can be the one who chooses to apply to every program and throw money away. Personally, I used a combination of data, feedback from previous years, SDN interview spreadsheets, and website info to determine if I would be selected for an interview at a program of interest.

Of course there's always someone who says to make sure to apply to a reach because 'you never know'. I was not 'pleasantly surprised' this season when I received no communication from the programs with 0% DOs.

There were no who knows or maybes in my post. All I said was that Freida does not have accurate information much of the time. If there is a program in which you are interested, go on their website and look where their residents went to school. Sometimes DOs are even listed as MDs so you don't know unless the school they attended is posted.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

Jackson's (University of Miami) ob/gyn residency program has a minimum of a 200 for USMLE to apply, and 725 for COMLEX lol

But you bet our DO schools will keep pushing COMLEX only, cause technically it's "accepted"!!!!

 

[atomheart]

Keeping it real, programs get NONE of your ERAS fees. So perhaps that money goes into the AAMC holiday party, but it doesn't go into NYU's funds.

Ahaha what a monopoly. The money goes to someone's holiday party...

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Check the resident roster and faculty roster online. If you dont see any DOs, there is your answer

 

[Espressso]

Check the resident roster and faculty roster online. If you dont see any DOs, there is your answer

this seems to be the most consistent way to find out, IMO

 

[Lebowski9]

+1. If they have DOs in their residency, go for it. If not, don’t. Pretty easy to look at current residents on their websites!

 

[Goro]

+1. If they have DOs in their residency, go for it. If not, don’t. Pretty easy to look at current residents on their websites!

One can also look at past matches from your school, or other schools. The former is somewhat better because your grads are thus a known quantity.

 

[ortnakas]

Keeping it real, programs get NONE of your ERAS fees. So perhaps that money goes into the AAMC holiday party, but it doesn't go into NYU's funds.

Thanks for this info.

I don’t know if it makes me feel better or worse about how much money I spent on ERAS last year.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Jackson's (University of Miami) ob/gyn residency program has a minimum of a 200 for USMLE to apply, and 725 for COMLEX lol

But you bet our DO schools will keep pushing COMLEX only, cause technically it's "accepted"!!!!

Nice find. I bet they would lower that 725 for an 'OB-GYN honors track' student tho

 

[BorntobeDO?]

+1. If they have DOs in their residency, go for it. If not, don’t. Pretty easy to look at current residents on their websites!

This usually works, but then sometimes they don't list any of the degrees, so I have no clue, that's the hard part.

 

[deleted950463]

columbia, cornell and NYU radiology residencies don’t have any DOs

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

columbia, cornell and NYU radiology residencies don’t have any DOs

I still have no idea how that came as a shock to you...

 

[libertyyne]

I still have no idea how that came as a shock to you...

I would also look at the frequency of lower tier MD schools at these places.

 

[deleted950463]

I would also look at the frequency of lower tier MD schools at these places.

I looked. Lower tier MD schools seem to be well represented. There are also seem to be not a whole lot of DO faculties at those places....

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

There are also seem to be not a whole lot of DO faculties at those places....

Again... why is this a shock to you?

 

[Dwan]

I would also look at the frequency of lower tier MD schools at these places.

It's a common misconception that low tier MD schools have similar struggles to DO schools. Pretty much everything is accessible from low-tier MD. In rads especially, the good students interviewed everywhere (Brigham, Stanford, UCSF, WashU etc). The main difference is that going to a top tier, you can get into top 10 derm programs with 220s-230s while for the low-tier MD, it's typically only top students who can access that.

 

[deleted950463]

This dude has mentioned this above scenario ad nauseam on sdn. He literally obsesses about it

Because there is a clear misconception that low tier MD and DO are similar in career prospect when it comes to the match. They are nothing alike.

 

[libertyyne]

It's a common misconception that low tier MD schools have similar struggles to DO schools. Pretty much everything is accessible from low-tier MD. In rads especially, the good students interviewed everywhere (Brigham, Stanford, UCSF, WashU etc). The main difference is that going to a top tier, you can get into top 10 derm programs with 220s-230s while for the low-tier MD, it's typically only top students who can access that.

The point is that there are not lower tier MD graduates in droves there. Harvard, and other t20 graduates easily make up the majority of residents. If this was truely a school tier blind process you would not see the same pattern over and over with t-20 students being a lion share. So yes pedigree does matter even for lower tier MD students it does.But the difference is that with great performance you can reach up to the tippy top from a lower tier and try , but not as a DO. If you wanted to go into academic medicine into the ivory towers DO was probably a very bad decision.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Because there is a clear misconception that low tier MD and DO are similar in career prospect when it comes to the match

Not really... it's said pretty frequently that they aren't...

 

[Dwan]

The point is that there are not lower tier MD graduates in droves there. Harvard, and other t20 graduates easily make up the majority of residents. If this was truely a school tier blind process you would not see the same pattern over and over with t-20 students being a lion share. So yes pedigree does matter even for lower tier MD students it does.But the difference is that with great performance you can reach up to the tippy top from a lower tier and try , but not as a DO. If you wanted to go into academic medicine into the ivory towers DO was probably a very bad decision.

If you look at Columbia radiology, the majority are from normal schools. I agree it's definitely not tier blind though - as I said, top schools do very well even with weak academic performances.

 

[libertyyne]

If you look at Columbia radiology, the majority are from normal schools. I agree it's definitely not tier blind though - as I said, top schools do very well even with weak academic performances.

its because that program is not at the tippy top of the tower.

 

[Dwan]

its because that program is not at the tippy top of the tower.

It's competitive due to location and prestige. Look up WashU rads and besides all the internal matches, most also come from normal schools. The top students with proper apps got interviews at the tippy top in desirable locations too, though (like those I mentioned). It's definitely much easier from a top MD school, but if you do well and don't apply dumb (this happens often at MD schools as well), pretty much everything's accessible.

 

[libertyyne]

It's competitive due to location and prestige. Look up WashU rads and besides all the internal matches, most also come from normal schools. The top students with proper apps got interviews at the tippy top in desirable locations too, though (like those I mentioned). It's definitely much easier from a top MD school, but if you do well and don't apply dumb (this happens often at MD schools as well), pretty much everything's accessible.

Look at ucsf, brigham, stanford. Look at where these people place from. If you are seeing a program full of lower tier, that program is unlikely the top 10 . I mean some non-competitive specialties you will see this occur at places like this, but the higher in the competitiveness you go the less likely you are to see people from random schools.
Department of Radiology Residency - Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, MA

 

[Dwan]

Look at ucsf, brigham, stanford. Look at where these people place from. If you are seeing a program full of lower tier, that program is unlikely the top 10 . I mean some non-competitive specialties you will see this occur at places like this, but the higher in the competitiveness you go the less likely you are to see people from random schools.
Department of Radiology Residency - Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, MA

WashU is def in the top 10 for rads, lol. And like I said, the good students interviewed at those places, but obviously it's much easier to get in from a top tier. And this isn't some uncommon occurrence - can name cases who did well in most of the fields.

 

[deleted950463]

WashU is def in the top 10 for rads, lol. And like I said, the good students interviewed at those places, but obviously it's much easier to get in from a top tier. And this isn't some uncommon occurrence - can name cases who did well in most of the fields.

There is a difference between “top 10” and competitiveness. More people want to be in NYC and Cali vs St Louis.

 

[libertyyne]

WashU is def in the top 10 for rads, lol. And like I said, the good students interviewed at those places, but obviously it's much easier to get in from a top tier. And this isn't some uncommon occurrence - can name cases who did well in most of the fields.

its a general rule of thumb not a law. No one is saying that having an MD is not better for residency prospects, generally if you want to go to a pedigree ***** place you should have a pedigree to match.

 

[Dwan]

There is a difference between “top 10” and competitiveness. More people want to be in NYC and Cali vs St Louis.

Hence why I said Columbia was very competitive and mentioned my classmates who also interviewed at ucsf, brigham, stanford rads with a strong app. And it's obv a big deal to be able to get into top 10 derm with below avg steps, coming from a top tier MD, like I said earlier. The opportunities from low tier MD are often undermined is the point.

 

[cgk]

This is an academic program. Not sure if you are just expecting to waltz into one from a DO school. Do the work apply, and find out. The IMGs is like a chief resident from the UK. There were 170~ish DO's qualified to apply for this program in the IM pool in 2018. Who knows if any of them even applied? And who knows if they had the appropriate letters and research?
View attachment 245403

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What percentage of DO students is the lowest threshold to determine if you have a prayer of interviewing, and matching at an IM program that is predominantly IMG friendly. I've been invited to interview at programs that have 8% DO's and 85% IMG students. Are these programs even worth my while going to for the interview?

 

[Ho0v-man]

YOLO! Apply wisely to give yourself enough options sure. But I’m definitely applying to places without DOs if I’d want to live there.

What’s to lose? Money? I waste money in tuition every day?

Fear of rejection? Hurt self esteem? I’m a DO. I have no lingering self respect at this point lol.

 

[DrWBD]

columbia, cornell and NYU radiology residencies don’t have any DOs

Columbia had one a few years ago.
I think he was transferred in when Saint Vincent’s closed. Talk about a lucky break!

 

[AlteredScale]

What percentage of DO students is the lowest threshold to determine if you have a prayer of interviewing, and matching at an IM program that is predominantly IMG friendly. I've been invited to interview at programs that have 8% DO's and 85% IMG students. Are these programs even worth my while going to for the interview?

I have one colleague that applied IM and used a 20% DO cutoff with FRIEDA, didn't leave a ton of options but she got interviews at a lot of places doing so (14+ I think).

There's nothing wrong with IMG. Usually I look for ones that at least have some AMG in the mix. It's just if it's all IMG and the program has been known to be pretty harsh (like a small community program in NY) then I'd be wary about going to those since I wouldn't even want to go there. But it's all personal preference and depends on the success of your ERAS cycle (meaning if you only have 3 interviews by January and 2 are small community in New York, be ready to rank those no matter your personal preference)

 

[cgk]

I have one colleague that applied IM and used a 20% DO cutoff with FRIEDA, didn't leave a ton of options but she got interviews at a lot of places doing so (14+ I think).

There's nothing wrong with IMG. Usually I look for ones' that at least have SOME AMG's in the mix. It's just if it's all IMG and the program has been known to be pretty harsh (ie small community program in NY) then I'd be wary about going to those since I wouldn't even want to go there. but it's all personal preference and depends on the success of your ERAS cycle (meaning if you only have 3 interviews by January and 2 are small community in New York, be ready to rank those no matter your personal presence)

Thanks for the advice

 

[h23]

I wanted to bring this thread back. Is there any reason as to why at some top rads programs, there seems to be a fair amount of IMGs or FMGs, but they are completely against DOs? Is the stigma against DOs really that bad? I always thought the consensus was that DOs have a stronger chance of matching for residency than IMGs and FMGs. Is that not the case? I was hoping to go for rads, not at one of the top ten residencies, but within a major city probably. But with rads maybe becoming more competitive, it kind of does make me feel weird and scared for my future.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I wanted to bring this thread back. Is there any reason as to why at some top rads programs, there seems to be a fair amount of IMGs or FMGs, but they are completely against DOs? Is the stigma against DOs really that bad? I always thought the consensus was that DOs have a stronger chance of matching for residency than IMGs and FMGs. Is that not the case? I was hoping to go for rads, not at one of the top ten residencies, but within a major city probably. But with rads maybe becoming more competitive, it kind of does make me feel weird and scared for my future.

It doesn’t change anything. Put together the best app you can and apply. I didn’t apply to a big name place I was interested in because they’d never taken a DO. They matched their first DO that year.

I don’t know about the rare IMGs. But the FMGs seem to be superstars with a CV a mile long.

The vast majority of programs will give you great training. If you must train at a top program, you really shouldn’t have attended an osteopathic school.

The overwhelming majority of programs have taken DOs before.

 

[h23]

It doesn’t change anything. Put together the best app you can and apply. I didn’t apply to a big name place I was interested in because they’d never taken a DO. They matched their first DO that year.

I don’t know about the rare IMGs. But the FMGs seem to be superstars with a CV a mile long.

The vast majority of programs will give you great training. If you must train at a top program, you really shouldn’t have attended an osteopathic school.

The overwhelming majority of programs have taken DOs before.

I think the main reason I'm worried is with the idea that rads is getting more competitive these days that maybe some of the midtier programs will start looking less at DOs for some reason, but will still take MDs and FMGs. I don't know about IMGs either, but I think I remember seeing some somewhere at some program somewhere. I assumed that it meant that they'd be more than happy to take DOs too, but apparently I was mistaken? I'm not sure tbh. If FMGs are being taken for that reason though, then I can understand that I suppose. I'm assuming that would imply if a DO had the same credentials and CV that the aforementioned FMG had who managed to match into some top tier program, everything being the same except the fact that the DO went to a DO school, then the DO would also be able to match at that same top tier program as well? Obviously easier said than done and I'm not sure if there's even an answer to this since it's all hypothetical and there's not really a way we can test this.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

This has definetly changed since 2018, the merger seems to have opened doors at traditionally MD places it seems like. IF a DO puts together an app they can match at a big name pedigree place(Mayo ortho, NYU ortho, Penn surgery, UMich CT surgery, Vandy rads, derm at UW, plastics at CCF, Duke ENT, Dartmouth IR, Cornell Optho to name a few). Of course its harder to put together such an app from a DO school at times than compared to even an average MD school, but i'd say its easier than doing it as a IMG/FMG though, most definitely significantly more bias against the latter two groups than USDO(even at top places). The FMG's who match at such places have very very impressive CV's that takes years to make.

 

[Goro]

I wanted to bring this thread back. Is there any reason as to why at some top rads programs, there seems to be a fair amount of IMGs or FMGs, but they are completely against DOs? Is the stigma against DOs really that bad? I always thought the consensus was that DOs have a stronger chance of matching for residency than IMGs and FMGs. Is that not the case? I was hoping to go for rads, not at one of the top ten residencies, but within a major city probably. But with rads maybe becoming more competitive, it kind of does make me feel weird and scared for my future.

I'm only reporting what some other people have said, but some places will not take DO graduates because God forbid, elitist MD graduates will look at the program and ask, "they have dos there? What's wrong with the place?"

 

[h23]

I'm only reporting what some other people have said, but some places will not take DO graduates because God forbid, elitist MD graduates will look at the program and ask, "they have dos there? What's wrong with the place?"

based on your opinion, would you say that things are changing rather fast and these types of reactions, while still prevalent, are becoming a bit less these days? Not looking at the elitist programs, even though it would be nice to have a chance to go there for residency. Just thinking about in terms of rads, since it was once fairly DO friendly, but last year's data shows that it has gotten more competitive. I don't want to be in a situation where if i'm trying to match into rads and mid-tier programs that i'm interested in won't look at me because i'm a DO. I'm hoping something like that won't happen.

 

[h23]

also this is a side note, but it kind of makes me feel a little bad that there are some elitist programs that will be fine with allowing an FMG to train there, but won't touch a DO. Not taking anything away from the FMG because they likely have proved that they are qualified to be there. I just would like to have somewhat of a shot as well. I was hoping that these things would have become less prevalent ever since the merger and I'm hoping that it gets better by the time I graduate.

 

[Goro]

based on your opinion, would you say that things are changing rather fast and these types of reactions, while still prevalent, are becoming a bit less these days? Not looking at the elitist programs, even though it would be nice to have a chance to go there for residency. Just thinking about in terms of rads, since it was once fairly DO friendly, but last year's data shows that it has gotten more competitive. I don't want to be in a situation where if i'm trying to match into rads and mid-tier programs that i'm interested in won't look at me because i'm a DO. I'm hoping something like that won't happen.

All the evidence I've seen, not only from SDN but from the success of my own graduates, is that things are indeed improving for DO grads, and the glass door is cracking open.

There will always be elitist residencies, who even treat MD grads in the same way.