How to cope on gen surg

[MrBurns10]

You med students seriously have to work over the holidays? Man, I didn't particularly like my surgery rotation, but it was nothing like the people on this thread are implying. At my school, we get a holiday vacation because it falls in between rotations...I just assumed this was standard for med students.

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[VoiceofReason]

This is really something I dislike about internet forums. I meant no disrespect at all but I can see how my post might be interpreted that way. My incredulity is the face to face equivalent of going "get outa here, seriously?!" Its hard for me to believe, thats all. I didn't mean to sound like I was accusing people of lying.

 

[AF_PedsBoy]

We look forward to seeing the, "I'm a first year and am I cut out for medicine??", "I'm a third year and I can't believe how long the hours and how much scut I do," and the, "I'm an intern and I get way more **** than I realized they get when I was a med student," postings

 

[SoCuteMD]

This is really something I dislike about internet forums. I meant no disrespect at all but I can see how my post might be interpreted that way. My incredulity is the face to face equivalent of going "get outa here, seriously?!" Its hard for me to believe, thats all. I didn't mean to sound like I was accusing people of lying.

You said, and I quote "These stories have to be exceedingly exaggerated." There was no misinterpreting that statement.

 

[justwondering]

i can definitely understand the difficulty. someone said above, the residents have more work and responsibility than med students....even thoough thats true, i know our residents would leave the OR area to eat or whatever while telling us to stay there and page them when the next case went back. so they got to eat to in the cafeteria and while i ran off to get my smuggled sandwich from my white coat. its amazing how much food u can get in ur mouth in 3 bites. doesnt take long either. the bathroom thing is harder. fluid restriction works. hey if our chf pts can deal with it, i guess i can too.

 

[Blade28]

i can definitely understand the difficulty. someone said above, the residents have more work and responsibility than med students....even thoough thats true, i know our residents would leave the OR area to eat or whatever while telling us to stay there and page them when the next case went back.

That may be the case on occasion, but I can guarantee that you eat more meals than the residents do every week.

 

[SoCuteMD]

That may be the case on occasion, but I can guarantee that you eat more meals than the residents do every week.

Actually I've found this to be untrue. We have the same system where med students wait in the OR until the patient is brought back, then page the resident. My residents often get a chance to get food between cases. Not to mention that everyone but the interns gets a chance to grab breakfast while waiting for the floor team to come sign out (interns+med students+chief). The interns rarely scrub in, so they can get breakfast right after sign out. The chief can usually get some food before his med student pages him from the OR.

While I appreciate that life as a resident is tough, there are lots of places on SDN to talk about it. Clinical rotations is where we med students get to whine!!!

 

[Ypo.]

The further I go into third year, the more I realize that much of what is written in this thread is true. Part of the hard thing is figuring out what's expected of you and how to do it. What Kimberlicox said is exactly what I have come to realize. But it took several months for me to figure it out and I'm still working out the details. Medicine kicked my ass and I learned a lot, but if I were able to do it over again I'm sure I would do much better.

Attendings do want you know most of the details of your patients without reading off notes. Luckily I'm getting better at that. I admit-I did the photocopy thing during medicine. AND I also went and got breakfast once after morning report (but I still saw my patients in enough time and I wasn't late to anything).

Next step=writing my SOAP notes before the morning is through! They tend to be too long and I'm still having trouble managing my time with documentation, although my patient skills and time management regarding that area have improved tremendously.

HOWEVER-there is no way I will ever get used to 'not drinking water so that I don't have to pee'. That is too unhealthy and any job that requires that is not one I will do for long. I may have to suck it up on surgery rotation, but I am not going to rationalize it or pretend it's normal because that's BS.

 

[Blade28]

While I appreciate that life as a resident is tough, there are lots of places on SDN to talk about it. Clinical rotations is where we med students get to whine!!!

Agreed! But to quickly finish our discussion, I was talking about breakfast + lunch + dinner...many of those are skipped by residents on busy services.

Edit: I also want to make sure that med students who are interested in surgery (no idea if you are, I'm just speaking generally) know what they're getting themselves into...so there are no surprises come intern year.

 

[SoCuteMD]

Agreed! But to quickly finish our discussion, I was talking about breakfast + lunch + dinner...many of those are skipped by residents on busy services.

I eat (or don't eat, as it may be) all three of those meals at the hospital during this rotation, so I meant those too. Most residents go home for dinner, but since we are living in dorm-like quarters, we eat at the hospital caf. We almost always end up not being able to eat breakfast, rarely get lunch. We usually get dinner, unless signout goes until 7:15 or later (oh, wait, that's not such a rare occurrence).

 

[Dave81]

Man, these descriptions of gen surg scare me too! I guess some programs are pretty hardcore like everyone is saying and well some aren't. There is one big factor that a lot of people don't consider, whether you really like surgery or not. I can spend 10hr days on IM and hate just about every minute of it and be too exhausted/not interested to read at the end of the day and then spend 16-18hrs on Gen Surg and be super tired but find time to read a little and enjoy it at the same time. I don't really know if my program was considered hardcore, I was tired but didn't think it was that bad while I had other students say it was the worse time of their life. I rotated during my third year in a hospital with no surgical residents so we did most of the work. My team and I put in about 100 something hrs a week... Here's how a typical day went.
~4:30am got up, got ready.
~5am-got to the hospital, bought a canned doubleshot expresso and pastry from starbucks (we had one in the hospital). Chugged the expresso and ate as much of the pastry as I could while walking to the ICU, printed out a new list of pts, divided up new pts/consults between the 3 of us.
~6:30am finished rounding on pts. went to pre-op to check on pts.
~7:00 supposed to start surgery, attending running late, PEE BREAK/update labs... yes memorize abnormals and track them from previous values..
~12 round with attending
~1 to surgeons office.. picked up something from cafeteria and ate while driving... drove faster than attending.. pee break
~6pm finished office--> back to hospital, drove faster than attending... got something from cafeteria, ate while checking any missing labs/scans, pee break
~6pm-10pm rounded on acute ptss.again, random consults, central lines, surgeries... checked board for tomorrow.
10:30 -->home, ate, much needed BM, read a little on cases tomorrow (or if it was the same case, i.e. we did a lot of lap choles, it would be free time to chill, watch a movie, etc.)
12am - sleep (one of us on house call)
Everyday was kinida like this, sub in office for clinic or more surgery... but not every surgery case ran on time so there was plenty of time between them to pee, check labs, text gf, etc. Did this for a month, ran pretty smoothly, attending was more or less satisfied. Was tired but happy and learned a lot.... one of the other students hated every minute of it... could see myself doing it for the next 5 years and then being able to more or less set my own schedule after that...

 

[Blade28]

I eat (or don't eat, as it may be) all three of those meals at the hospital during this rotation, so I meant those too. Most residents go home for dinner, but since we are living in dorm-like quarters, we eat at the hospital caf. We almost always end up not being able to eat breakfast, rarely get lunch. We usually get dinner, unless signout goes until 7:15 or later (oh, wait, that's not such a rare occurrence).

OK. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Suffice to say every General Surgery residency program is different.

There is one big factor that a lot of people don't consider, whether you really like surgery or not. I can spend 10hr days on IM and hate just about every minute of it and be too exhausted/not interested to read at the end of the day and then spend 16-18hrs on Gen Surg and be super tired but find time to read a little and enjoy it at the same time.
...
Was tired but happy and learned a lot.... one of the other students hated every minute of it... could see myself doing it for the next 5 years and then being able to more or less set my own schedule after that...

That's an excellent point, and one that's worth repeating. An easier lifestyle isn't necessarily worth it if you're hating your life every single minute.

What sets those who decide to go into surgery from the rest is that despite the rigorous, strenuous lifestyle, there's something about the field - the operations, the decision making, the intra-op/post-op care, the complexity/variety of cases/patients, dealing with cancer/trauma/whatever, etc. - that makes it all worth it.

 

[VoiceofReason]

What sets those who decide to go into surgery from the rest is that despite the rigorous, strenuous lifestyle, there's something about the field - the operations, the decision making, the intra-op/post-op care, the complexity/variety of cases/patients, dealing with cancer/trauma/whatever, etc. - that makes it all worth it.

sounds so great. why does the training have to be so ridiculous. Doesn't take much to make me happy. I could do anything you ask me as long as I can at least eat breakfast lunch and dinner and exercise for 30 minutes on most days. Not willing to sacrifice my general well-being I guess. Don't see why anyone should need to, but whatever..

 

[climbingdocs]

I went through same experience. I also was mentally abused I was a DO student among MD surgeons, a girl among all guys. But to make you feel better if you can go through that rotation you can do anything.

 

[SLUser11]

I'm not sure why you feel so hell-bent on contradicting me, when my statements are obviously based on my experience. Unless and until you've lived through a day of general surgery at my rotation site, you probably can't comment on it. Different places are different. Perhaps you are at a place that doesn't blatantly abuse med students like my site does. Perhaps you actually make an effort to not abuse med students. If so, I applaud you and the site.

Once again, this is the clinical rotations forum. Discussion of internship and general surgery residency can go in their respective forums. Thanks!

Blade is a solid contributor to all of SDNs forums. Don't think that just because he doesn't show you more sympathy that he shouldn't be posting in your beloved clinical rotations forum.

Granted I've never been at your rotation site, but while your med school and surgery rotation may be unique, your stories and gripes are almost universal, representing the sentiment of students at most urban academic centers in the country.

It may be a little unfair, but really it's all perception. You perceive that there's no time to eat or sleep or pee, but really it's that you personally can't find the time, while others can. It's all about time management.

Like I said before, there were plenty of students at my med school on the same rotations as me, working the same hours, doing the same thing, that never had time to eat or pee, and worked "120 hours a week." I somehow found time to eat everyday, and only worked 80-90 hours per week.

I knew how to multitask, and I wasn't as prone to the drama and martyrdom as some of my classmates, so I kept my head above water.

How long does it take you to write progress notes? See consults? H and Ps? Does waiting for a case to start (and notify your resident) require 100% of your mental and physical energy?

If you are starving with a distended bladder, then you probably have to learn to be more efficient. Don't blame the system until you're sure you can't alleviate your suffering with a little self-improvement.

 

[DoctaJay]

Kind of an off topic question, but since you eat so little during clinical rotations, especially g-surg, would you say that you lose weight 3rd year? I was wondering because I'm not too faithful with hitting the gym now, and from reading what you all are saying, I definitely won't be able to hit the gym during 3rd year.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Kind of an off topic question, but since you eat so little during clinical rotations, especially g-surg, would you say that you lose weight 3rd year? I was wondering because I'm not too faithful with hitting the gym now, and from reading what you all are saying, I definitely won't be able to hit the gym during 3rd year.

one would think so, but sometimes its the opposite.

I lost weight during medical school but gained it during residency...I think the difference was that I worked more during residency and essentially gave up any sort of formal exercise while eating crap that I would find at the nurse's station.

 

[Blade28]

I'm not sure why you feel so hell-bent on contradicting me, when my statements are obviously based on my experience. Unless and until you've lived through a day of general surgery at my rotation site, you probably can't comment on it. Different places are different.

I'm not hell-bent on anything. Right before your post, I posted:

OK. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Suffice to say every General Surgery residency program is different.

Which is to say, I think we've had different experiences - and the General Surgery residency program at your med school is different from the program here at this med school.

Let's just leave it at that, OK? Of course I'm not trying to contradict what you're saying - that would mean I'd be calling you a liar, which I'm obviously not.

Kind of an off topic question, but since you eat so little during clinical rotations, especially g-surg, would you say that you lose weight 3rd year?

I think it depends on: if you're the kind of person who eats when stressed (some people eat a lot when they get home); if you only eat junk food whenever you have the chance to eat; if you're too sleep-deprived, as studies have shown that those who get less-than-optimal rest gain weight.

I lost weight during my G Surg rotation in MS-III, gained some back during the not-so-busy months later in med school, and maintained during the first two years of residency. Now that I'm in the lab, I'm working out and running like a fiend and am losing weight as a result.

 

[SLUser11]

Kind of an off topic question, but since you eat so little during clinical rotations, especially g-surg, would you say that you lose weight 3rd year? I was wondering because I'm not too faithful with hitting the gym now, and from reading what you all are saying, I definitely won't be able to hit the gym during 3rd year.

I often lose weight on really busy rotations, upwards of 5-10 pounds, but usually it's not good weight (I lose muscle and retain fat). It's all about 1)what's available for me to eat at non-traditional hours of the day, and 2) if I can make it to the gym, even for short workouts.

It's tough when the hospital cafeteria gives you the option of either greasy foods, or a 2-day old turkey sandwich with one piece of meat on it. As righteous as it feels to get the turkey, you're going to be starving again in an hour, and you want a quick long-term fix.

 

[smq123]

sounds so great. why does the training have to be so ridiculous. Doesn't take much to make me happy. I could do anything you ask me as long as I can at least eat breakfast lunch and dinner and exercise for 30 minutes on most days. Not willing to sacrifice my general well-being I guess. Don't see why anyone should need to, but whatever..

It's all about time management.

It's not that bleak. Exercising for 30 minutes a day might not be feasible on some rotations, but you'll spend a large part of your day standing up/walking around. If you're really worried about "fitting in" your exercise routine, just use the stairs instead of the elevators whenever possible.

Or - you could volunteer to scrub in on all the surgeries done on super-obese people. Retracting all that fatty tissue will really give your arm muscles a good workout! [I'm only partly kidding.]

Actually I've found this to be untrue. We have the same system where med students wait in the OR until the patient is brought back, then page the resident. My residents often get a chance to get food between cases. Not to mention that everyone but the interns gets a chance to grab breakfast while waiting for the floor team to come sign out (interns+med students+chief). The interns rarely scrub in, so they can get breakfast right after sign out. The chief can usually get some food before his med student pages him from the OR.

While I appreciate that life as a resident is tough, there are lots of places on SDN to talk about it. Clinical rotations is where we med students get to whine!!!

I can only speak for my own school (your experience does sound pretty brutal!), but I think the main advantage to being a resident over a student is that a resident actually "belongs" to a department. I agree with SLUser11 - at my school, it IS all about time management, but I feel like I could manage my time more efficiently if I weren't caught up in the stupid little administrative obstacles that come with being a student.

For instance, I never have time to eat breakfast...because I have to spend that time frantically flipping through Surgical Recall to figure out what will be going on that day. Why? Because I don't have access to the online OR schedule, and don't know what surgeries I'll be seeing the next day, so I can't prepare by pre-reading. [Yes, I've tried asking the OR nurses to see a copy of the next day's schedule, and gotten shooed away for my pains. ]

I don't have that many pee breaks...because I have to spend that time on the phone with Hospital IT, arguing over why hospital intranet access might be important to a med student. And then, once they decided to "grant" me access, they changed my password without telling me. It took 4 phone calls to get it changed back.

On Gyn, I never ate breakfast, because it took me 20 minutes to get into the OR. Why? Because the hospital refused to activate my ID, so I couldn't get into the OR unless someone else happened to open the door. Since I couldn't depend on that happening in a timely way, I'd have to stake out the OR and wait for an opportunity to sneak in. My ID also wouldn't open the locker room, so I'd have to wait for a chance to get into the locker room and deposit my stuff. It was a huge, huge pain.

I do agree with SLUser11, though - on ENT, everything came together. I had online OR schedule access, my ID opened the OR door for me, and my password actually worked. It was amazing - I could actually pee, eat, and even check my email between cases.

 

[SLUser11]

It's not that bleak. Exercising for 30 minutes a day might not be feasible on some rotations, but you'll spend a large part of your day standing up/walking around. If you're really worried about "fitting in" your exercise routine, just use the stairs instead of the elevators whenever possible.

Or - you could volunteer to scrub in on all the surgeries done on super-obese people. Retracting all that fatty tissue will really give your arm muscles a good workout! [I'm only partly kidding.]



I can only speak for my own school (your experience does sound pretty brutal!), but I think the main advantage to being a resident over a student is that a resident actually "belongs" to a department. I agree with SLUser11 - at my school, it IS all about time management, but I feel like I could manage my time more efficiently if I weren't caught up in the stupid little administrative obstacles that come with being a student.

For instance, I never have time to eat breakfast...because I have to spend that time frantically flipping through Surgical Recall to figure out what will be going on that day. Why? Because I don't have access to the online OR schedule, and don't know what surgeries I'll be seeing the next day, so I can't prepare by pre-reading. [Yes, I've tried asking the OR nurses to see a copy of the next day's schedule, and gotten shooed away for my pains. ]

I don't have that many pee breaks...because I have to spend that time on the phone with Hospital IT, arguing over why hospital intranet access might be important to a med student. And then, once they decided to "grant" me access, they changed my password without telling me. It took 4 phone calls to get it changed back.

On Gyn, I never ate breakfast, because it took me 20 minutes to get into the OR. Why? Because the hospital refused to activate my ID, so I couldn't get into the OR unless someone else happened to open the door. Since I couldn't depend on that happening in a timely way, I'd have to stake out the OR and wait for an opportunity to sneak in. My ID also wouldn't open the locker room, so I'd have to wait for a chance to get into the locker room and deposit my stuff. It was a huge, huge pain.

I do agree with SLUser11, though - on ENT, everything came together. I had online OR schedule access, my ID opened the OR door for me, and my password actually worked. It was amazing - I could actually pee, eat, and even check my email between cases.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but during those times that you were on the phone, or waiting for the OR door to open, or reading through Recall, you could have been eating a banana.

I do agree with you, however, that as a student I was less "in the club." Even as an intern last year, I was frustrated that the OR staff couldn't page me when a patient went back to the room. It would really allow me to get things done with those 10-15 minute windows of time.

Still, if you look at SoCuteMD's profile, while she's complaining that there's absolutely no time to eat, etc, she's posted on SDN 5+ times per day during that same time period........something to think about.

 

[SoCuteMD]

Just playing devil's advocate here, but during those times that you were on the phone, or waiting for the OR door to open, or reading through Recall, you could have been eating a banana.

I do agree with you, however, that as a student I was less "in the club." Even as an intern last year, I was frustrated that the OR staff couldn't page me when a patient went back to the room. It would really allow me to get things done with those 10-15 minute windows of time.

Still, if you look at SoCuteMD's profile, while she's complaining that there's absolutely no time to eat, etc, she's posted on SDN 5+ times per day during that same time period........something to think about.

Most of my posts have been at 4 AM and 8-10 PM - before I leave for work and after I get home for the night, not to mention that those are hours during which the cafteria is closed. I have a PDA, though, and the hospital has wireless throughout - so if I'm in the CT scanner waiting for a trauma patient's BUN/creatinine I can pull up Recall on my PDA and start quizzing myself (but I absolutely can not leave). That often leads to checking SDN. I'd eat a banana at that time, but I've yet to learn how to conjure a banana out of thin air. I do stock my pockets in the AM, but by noon I've often run out of granola bars.

 

[smq123]

Just playing devil's advocate here, but during those times that you were on the phone, or waiting for the OR door to open, or reading through Recall, you could have been eating a banana.

Okay, point taken. Fortunately, it's all moot now.

Although I did accidentally smack an apple against a wall once, while I was on the phone with IT. I was getting frustrated, and forgot that the apple was in my hand...whoops.

 

[SLUser11]

Most of my posts have been at 4 AM and 8-10 PM - before I leave for work and after I get home for the night, not to mention that those are hours during which the cafteria is closed. I have a PDA, though, and the hospital has wireless throughout - so if I'm in the CT scanner waiting for a trauma patient's BUN/creatinine I can pull up Recall on my PDA and start quizzing myself (but I absolutely can not leave). That often leads to checking SDN. I'd eat a banana at that time, but I've yet to learn how to conjure a banana out of thin air. I do stock my pockets in the AM, but by noon I've often run out of granola bars.

What are you doing on SDN? Go eat a sandwich!

Just kidding. I know surgery is tough. Just keep plugging away at it and remember that everyone goes through it.....some of us for five years.

Also, all jokes aside, breakfast is extremely important to surviving long surgical mornings and still possessing your mental faculty. Maybe you need to wake up a few minutes earlier and have some cereal before you leave.

 

[climbingdocs]

Anyone else walked over 10 miles while oncall??

 

[Llenroc]

Just playing devil's advocate here, but during those times that you were on the phone, or waiting for the OR door to open, or reading through Recall, you could have been eating a banana.

I do agree with you, however, that as a student I was less "in the club." Even as an intern last year, I was frustrated that the OR staff couldn't page me when a patient went back to the room. It would really allow me to get things done with those 10-15 minute windows of time.

Still, if you look at SoCuteMD's profile, while she's complaining that there's absolutely no time to eat, etc, she's posted on SDN 5+ times per day during that same time period........something to think about.

Why stop there? You should tell the medical students that they should eat lunch while taking a ****, so they can squeeze more time into their days for being your Surgery scut monkey... Or just standing around in the OR like a idiot for 14 hours each day, holding a retractor and watching a tedious bowel surgery that no one cares about.

 

[SoCuteMD]

Anyone else walked over 10 miles while oncall??

I have a pedometer that only measures steps. According to it, I took almsot 60K steps in a 29 hour call. I would bet that's close to 10 miles, but I don't know!

 

[hyperbaric]

I have a pedometer that only measures steps. According to it, I took almsot 60K steps in a 29 hour call. I would bet that's close to 10 miles, but I don't know!

Hang in there! You will survive.

 

[SLUser11]

Why stop there? You should tell the medical students that they should eat lunch while taking a ****, so they can squeeze more time into their days for being your Surgery scut monkey... Or just standing around in the OR like a idiot for 14 hours each day, holding a retractor and watching a tedious bowel surgery that no one cares about.

I've never heard anyone cry about surgery as often as you do. There is a river of tears flooding SDN because you had a hard rotation.

I'm sorry surgery was too hard for you, and you found the OR boring. Please get over it.

 

[Anka]

Let me preface this by saying I had a great time on surgery. In fact, I've rarely if ever felt the need to vent on SDN.

That said, this forum is for clinical med students to get advice and support. Just as the interns are over in their forum making the statement that RNs shouldn't be posting when they're venting about the plight of the intern, so too should the residents stay out of these discussions if the student's need to vent. Honestly, if they needed someone to say "STFU and deal" I'm sure they could have gotten it from their home institution's residents.

My guess is some genius is thinking to themselves -- hey, but I was there, I'm allowed to interject here because I've been there. So I'll tell you up front, if you are currently a surgery resident, you probably didn't go through what these students are going through. It's harder if you don't enjoy what you're doing.

Best,
Anka

 

[haveaniceday]

Let me preface this by saying I had a great time on surgery. In fact, I've rarely if ever felt the need to vent on SDN.

That said, this forum is for clinical med students to get advice and support. Just as the interns are over in their forum making the statement that RNs shouldn't be posting when they're venting about the plight of the intern, so too should the residents stay out of these discussions if the student's need to vent. Honestly, if they needed someone to say "STFU and deal" I'm sure they could have gotten it from their home institution's residents.

My guess is some genius is thinking to themselves -- hey, but I was there, I'm allowed to interject here because I've been there. So I'll tell you up front, if you are currently a surgery resident, you probably didn't go through what these students are going through. It's harder if you don't enjoy what you're doing.

Best,
Anka

Thank you for this post.

I am a very long time member of SDN of 6+ years, (though started up a new name due to desire to remain anonymous and my old handle/posts made it obvious to those who know me)...anyway, so I appreciate the long term members such as Blade, Kimberli, SLU, etc. Who are ubiquitous on almost every forum related to med school/residency....however they have the tendency to hijack, have personal conversations and make the students in this forum (for med students) feel like we are always being watched by some judgemental group of residents, kinda like how we feel all day, every day in rotations.

Their advice is awesome when directly applicable, but when someone is venting...sometimes advice and help from our unknown peers, not unknown "superiors" is what we need.

 

[Thievery Corp.]

Their advice is awesome when directly applicable, but when someone is venting...sometimes advice and help from our unknown peers, not unknown "superiors" is what we need.

That is a very true observation.
Although, I have rarely read post Blade or Kimberli providing advice, wrote to be in a manner other than in an attempt to be helpful. I think it is natural to want to offer advice if you have been through a situation, in fact, much of this website is largely dedicated to that. I also think that all of the advice here is useless unless one has a mindset willing to be open to it.
-It is well established that residency is sure as hell harder than medical school, but from where I stand as a third year right now it is damn hard to get that frame of mind. I think that all of catharticism (I realize that is not a real word) here is helpful, especially to find there are others going through the same thing.

-As I am going through general surgery rotation right now, I could not imagine how crappy it is for you if you don't like surgery. Is it possible to find something about it you like? I found that helped get me through Ob/Gyn. God, did I hate doing pap smears all day, but when it came surgery time, it was great and I said, Ok. I can get through this. It is possible. Now I'm on surgery and I'm sad that there is only 7 weeks of it left. They are going to have to get a blanket and a club to get me out of the OR.

Food wise, I try to keep a bag of trail mix in my white coat at all times. Lots of calories. Good stuff, and it is possible to wolf down a whole bag between cases. I am never hungery then.

If you really hate surgery, just remember it won't last forever.

 

[surrender903]

i enjoy how everyone that i ve met in surgery so far enjoys crapping on psychiatry. its alright. i just smile and try to be the best scutmonkey i can be

 

[Anka]

i enjoy how everyone that i ve met in surgery so far enjoys crapping on psychiatry. its alright. i just smile and try to be the best scutmonkey i can be

Yeah, that sort of thing is fun. Have you outed yourself?

 

[surrender903]

Yeah, that sort of thing is fun. Have you outed yourself?

hellllllll no.

i did that during ob/gyn and they were cool about it. they were all like "wow, psych, thats hard dealing with crazy people, can you teach us about PPD and baby blues?" (so i did a very informal presentation at a signout about it)

when i did a rotation at the morgue, my attending was told me a story about how when he did psych in school he saw a guy with tertiary syphillis, we had a good laugh about that while bread loafing the heart.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I'm sorry if my posts are disruptive. I did not mean for them to be so and while yes, sometimes we do highjack threads, I think that a natural course of most lengthy threads at SDN. Sometimes we forget that either our role in SDN or real life makes others uncomfortable. I'm sorry if my contributions made people feel like someone "superior" to them was watching. Since I used to be the Moderator of this forum, I still like to check it out at times but didn't honestly realize that it wasn't welcome.

At any rate, your voices have been heard by me...I'll butt out.

 

[Ypo.]

I'm sorry if my posts are disruptive. I did not mean for them to be so and while yes, sometimes we do highjack threads, I think that a natural course of most lengthy threads at SDN. Sometimes we forget that either our role in SDN or real life makes others uncomfortable. I'm sorry if my contributions made people feel like someone "superior" to them was watching. Since I used to be the Moderator of this forum, I still like to check it out at times but didn't honestly realize that it wasn't welcome.

At any rate, your voices have been heard by me...I'll butt out.

FWIW, I really enjoy reading your posts in this forum. I feel that the advice you give is advice that I can trust, and given in a friendlier manner than some attendings I have known in real life.

 

[Anka]

Kim,

It's not that you'e not welcome, you are. It's not even that advice isn't welcome; it usually is. ... but when we get to the point that a resident is telling a student that "I've never heard anyone cry about surgery as often as you do. There is a river of tears flooding SDN because you had a hard rotation." in a thread which is clearly a student venting, it crosses a line. Specifically, the tone is judgmental, and could be translated easily into "STFU and deal".

Anka

 

[SLUser11]

Kim,

It's not that you'e not welcome, you are. It's not even that advice isn't welcome; it usually is. ... but when we get to the point that a resident is telling a student that "I've never heard anyone cry about surgery as often as you do. There is a river of tears flooding SDN because you had a hard rotation." in a thread which is clearly a student venting, it crosses a line. Specifically, the tone is judgmental, and could be translated easily into "STFU and deal".

Anka

Read his old posts before you judge me too harshly. He has spent a significant amount of time ragging on surgery, and not just in the clinical rotations forum, but in all forums. It's not like I'm picking on some helpless third year trying to cope with the harshness of surgery. It's the same guy spewing the same crap for like a year now.

His post was inflammatory. My post was a reaction to that.

 

[Anka]

Read his old posts before you judge me too harshly. He has spent a significant amount of time ragging on surgery, and not just in the clinical rotations forum, but in all forums. It's not like I'm picking on some helpless third year trying to cope with the harshness of surgery. It's the same guy spewing the same crap for like a year now.

His post was inflammatory. My post was a reaction to that.

I've read them, and understood where you were coming from. That's why my initial post was general. Where you were coming from was less the point than the effect it has on students reading the thread who don't understand the history behind your post (and many of the students who most need to vent haven't been here for a very long time). Do you really think you are going to have any effect on that guy? He is what he is. But it does have an effect the forum if every time someone vents they are perceived as whining and beaten down by all powerful residents, attendings, and moderators, which is what this thread looks like if you don't have the historical perspective those of us who have been here for years have.

It's rare that students really work harder than residents, but it really sucks to be standing in an empty OR waiting for the patient ("Page me when you start preping") while your residents are in the doctors lounge; it really does suck to have to spend 20 minutes looking for scrubs, 20 minutes waiting for someone to open the door to the OR, then get yelled at because the patient has been in the room five minutes; it really does suck when you didn't get a chance to eat all day, and then you go to the cafe and it's already closed, and you're off site living in a dorm and don't have anything to eat. That's heirarchy. Our time will come. Meanwhile, it really sucks. If you like what you're doing, it's made up for by the other stuff that comes with the rotation, but if you don't and need a place to vent, this should be a safe place to do that. Dr. Cox, you, and Blade have been around long enough not to need to get into every scrap there for the scrapping.

Anka

 

[justwondering]

That said, this forum is for clinical med students to get advice and support. Just as the interns are over in their forum making the statement that RNs shouldn't be posting when they're venting about the plight of the intern, so too should the residents stay out of these discussions if the student's need to vent. Anka

haha, i was just thinking this thread was reminding me of the nurse/intern thread on the intern section. i really agree with the above (im a resident) as it applies to "venting" type threads. especially since many institutions are very different wrt how they treat their students. when i was a med student we were used as i described in my previous post (ie med student stays in OR area until the next pt goes back which the resident goes to eat, on a daily basis). i actually found that while i rotated on OB as a resident at an outside hospital, they scutted their med students out muuuuch worse (which was apparently how it was on ANY service in that hospital).

 

[smq123]

-It is well established that residency is sure as hell harder than medical school, but from where I stand as a third year right now it is damn hard to get that frame of mind. I think that all of catharticism (I realize that is not a real word) here is helpful, especially to find there are others going through the same thing.

I'm sorry if my posts are disruptive. I did not mean for them to be so and while yes, sometimes we do highjack threads, I think that a natural course of most lengthy threads at SDN. Sometimes we forget that either our role in SDN or real life makes others uncomfortable. I'm sorry if my contributions made people feel like someone "superior" to them was watching. Since I used to be the Moderator of this forum, I still like to check it out at times but didn't honestly realize that it wasn't welcome.

At any rate, your voices have been heard by me...I'll butt out.

No, no - you're always welcome here. That's not what we meant.

I agree with Thievery Corp. 100% - just realizing that other people are going through the same crap can be really helpful. It's just venting.

There are a lot of times that I just wish that the non-medical things were easy - so I could focus all my energy on actually learning and on trying to do my best on the floors.

As it is, though, as a med student, even the stupid stuff doesn't come easy, which just makes everything harder.

For instance, to discuss some stuff from a previous post (from the perspective of a med student)....

Do not come to the OR late because you "need" to go to the cafeteria and sit down to eat breakfast after rounds (I actually had some students do that). Either eat before you come to the hospital or bring power bars with you.

I do agree with this - a sit-down breakfast after rounds is a little excessive. But in SoCuteMD's case, I'd probably jump at the chance to eat real food, particularly if the cafeteria was closed whenever I DID have a chance to eat. (And especially if I was living in a dorm that didn't have a real kitchen.) After living on power bars for a few days, you start to get a little sick.

Walk faster than me to the OR so you have time to pee and get into the room before I do.

Like I mentioned before, on some rotations, I couldn't get into the OR by myself. (I know it sounds like I'm a mentally challenged 7 year old, but it's true.) And did I mention that the only bathrooms on that floor of the hospital were in the locker rooms...which also needed ID access for entry? Maybe I'm a coward, but I flatly refused to beg the charge nurse to let me in to the bathroom. I'd rather sneak away and insert a foley into myself.

Do a test run the day before you start the rotation, so you know where you are meeting, how to get there, where to park, how to get scrubs, maybe even what the census is.

* I loved my residents on my surgical sub-specialty rotation, but I wanted to smack them on my first week of the rotation. They told me where to meet on the first day...but then met somewhere else. I had no idea where else they'd be, so I just sat there in the cafeteria (like a *****) for 10 minutes. I wandered over the entire hospital for another 20 minutes, looking for them. I would have paged them...if only someone had thought to teach me how to use the paging system! (Eventually another med student taught me - the clerkship directors never seemed to think that this might be important info to share with us during orientation.) It was like getting stood up for a date. It obviously wasn't intentional, and they're some of the best residents that I've worked with so far, but having to wander in search of your team doesn't do a whole lot for your ego, let me tell you.

* The day before my rotation, I found out where to get scrubs (like you suggested). The actual 1st day of the rotation, though, the woman in charge of the student scrubs room was excessively cranky - I had evidently interrupted a VERY important egg mcmuffin. She refused to give me scrubs...because "students are supposed to get scrubs from the 7th floor." When I went to the 7th floor (8 flights up), I was told that those scrubs only for drug reps - student scrubs were in the basement. I went back to the basement, and had a stimulating 15 minute long argument with the woman in charge of the scrubs room. [I mean, really - should it take THAT LONG to get some boxy clothes made out of a flimsy material?]

* Third year students are denied access to the census. Hospital IT regulations. It's dumb, but apparently no one can change it.

I'm not going into this because of excuses, or because I'm implying that all third year students are poor victims while the residents are heartless tyrants. But, while I agree that part of the general surgery rotation should be learning how to manage time well, there are sometimes real physical limits to what students can accomplish. And I just wanted some of the residents and attendings here to see what goes on (in case they've forgotten from their own MS3 days). You know - just to increase communication between everyone....

 

[climbingdocs]

When I was on surgery my residents thought I was a complete idiot. Not only that it was my first rotation ever, but they would ask me ALL anatomy questions. So 50% of the time I got them wrong. But most of the time I was pretty much invisible to them

 

[SLUser11]

That said, this forum is for clinical med students to get advice and support. Just as the interns are over in their forum making the statement that RNs shouldn't be posting when they're venting about the plight of the intern, so too should the residents stay out of these discussions if the student's need to vent. Honestly, if they needed someone to say "STFU and deal" I'm sure they could have gotten it from their home institution's residents.

Kim,

It's not that you'e not welcome, you are. It's not even that advice isn't welcome; it usually is. ... but when we get to the point that a resident is telling a student that "I've never heard anyone cry about surgery as often as you do. There is a river of tears flooding SDN because you had a hard rotation." in a thread which is clearly a student venting, it crosses a line. Specifically, the tone is judgmental, and could be translated easily into "STFU and deal".

Anka

I just read a rather ironic post in another thread and will quote below:

The only moral course of action for you is to step up and take care of your patients (cause guess what, doc, you're it). Quit whining about it and do your job. Listen to Tired and Blade -- they know what they're talking about and are giving you the tough love that someone should have given you while you were still in diapers. This isn't about empathy and holding hands and singing Kumbaya. This is about making sure you take the best care you know how of patients who are actually sick and depending on you.

Yeah, I know it's unpopular now a days to expect med students to do work. There's all this PC BS about how MS3's are not there to do the interns job, they're there to learn. But as an MS4 who was there only a short year ago, I can tell you I learned the most on rotations where I was doing the interns job (or as much as I could handle). And to do that I woke up earlier and stayed later than an intern would have had to, 'cause that's how long it took me to get it done. And I still studied for the shelf.

Your comments there sound a lot like "STFU and deal" to me.......

I'm sorry if you disagree with my opinions, but don't get your panties all in a bunch over a resident posting in a "clinical rotations" forum, especially if your own comments in such a forum are equally or even more inflammatory.

 

[MadameLULU]

let's keep this thread on track- Let's be civil, discuss the topic and not each other. Thanks.

 

[njbmd]

One of the things that we, as a medical school class, did was meet at the end of second year with a good cross section of third-year students. They gave us this advice:

• Don't whine and complain. It only prolongs your agony and doesn't fix anything. The residents have been where you are and know that the hours are long and that you are tired. They are tired too and don't need to be reminded of this fact.
• If something is really wrong, find a professional way to fix it and keep moving forward.
• Find a way to learn from each patient and each situation no matter how painful.
• Your chief resident and junior resident are there to teach you. Regardless of what you want to do, you have one shot at learning everything that you can.
• Your chief resident and junior resident may have input into your final grade for the rotation, don't screw up because you can't see beyond your nose.
• Be professional and courteous even if you are not "feeling" professional and courteous. You are the only person who can change your attitude by changing your thoughts.
• The clock is ticking and moving. Soon this rotation will be over and you will move onto something else.
• Don't listen and believe everything that you hear. Rely on your own experiences but listen and appreciate those who try to help you.
• Leave the self-centered attitude at the door. The world does not revolve around you and your needs. Be a team-player and don't screw the rest of the team.
• You are the only one who can attend to "your needs". Don't expect the residents or your fellow students to "look out" for you.
• Learn how to manage time. Third-year is different from sitting in a classroom. Always communicate with the students who are leaving the rotation ahead of you so that you get the "heads up" on what is expected.
• Help your fellow students who are strugging when you can. This comes back in spades to help you.

No rotation is going to be perfect. You CAN learn to adjust to anything over the period of time that you are in a specific rotation. Sure there will be times when you are just "hating life" but there will be many more times when you will be loving what you do. If nothing else, when you have a bad experience, you can log it under "What I won't do when I am a resident" so that others behind you won't have a bad experience. The good thing is that "time keeps moving on". Make the clock your friend.

 

[smq123]

No rotation is going to be perfect. You CAN learn to adjust to anything over the period of time that you are in a specific rotation. Sure there will be times when you are just "hating life" but there will be many more times when you will be loving what you do. If nothing else, when you have a bad experience, you can log it under "What I won't do when I am a resident" so that others behind you won't have a bad experience. The good thing is that "time keeps moving on". Make the clock your friend.

I know that this advice was well intentioned. And, if it were a few months ago, I'd have appreciated it. But, please understand - EVERYTHING that you mentioned here? I've heard it. Many times over. And I still hear it...SIX TIMES A DAY.

Please, don't turn into one of those tiresome residents/attendings who INSIST on sharing advice with you like they were the first people to ever go through med school/residency. I've heard it all many times over. I'd rather hear about your fishing vacation, or about your kids, or about the wedding you went to last weekend.

Secondly - if you had read the rest of the thread (I know, it's getting kind of long and unwieldy now), then you'd know that the main point of contention is NOT how crappy life is. The problem is when you get on the internet to vent, and people immediately tell you to stop whining.

I don't complain while I'm in the hospital. I can't complain while I'm at home - too many other issues at home to take care of first. If you can't vent on the internet, then where CAN you vent? Or is venting a privilege that only residents have?

 

[smq123]

I Your comments there sound a lot like "STFU and deal" to me.......

I'm sorry if you disagree with my opinions, but don't get your panties all in a bunch over a resident posting in a "clinical rotations" forum, especially if your own comments in such a forum are equally or even more inflammatory.

To be fair, though - in the other thread, the OP was seeking advice on how to avoid having to do more work than he really wanted to. In this thread, most of the comments have been mostly just venting. I think that telling people "deal with it" is an appropriate response when they're actively seeking advice on how to avoid having to do work.

 

[njbmd]

Anyone have any suggestions on how to actually feel ok while on gen surg? I'm on 1 in 3 call and have had no minutes (let alone hours) of sleep any of those nights...they don't let me eat, they don't let me drink, they don't let me PEE!!! i feel like i'm a prisoner undergoing some sort of torture to break me!

what do you guys do to cope? ...i'm struggling

Umm, sounds like a pretty "crappy" situation to me.

To be fair, though - in the other thread, the OP was seeking advice on how to avoid having to do more work than he really wanted to. In this thread, most of the comments have been mostly just venting. I think that telling people "deal with it" is an appropriate response when they're actively seeking advice on how to avoid having to do work.

Since the above post is the originial post, it doesn't seem like the OP is trying to "avoid having to do more work that he really wanted to." Seems like he was just trying to figure out how to find time to "pee".

 

[Vader]

One of the things that we, as a medical school class, did was meet at the end of second year with a good cross section of third-year students. They gave us this advice:

• Don't whine and complain. It only prolongs your agony and doesn't fix anything. The residents have been where you are and know that the hours are long and that you are tired. They are tired too and don't need to be reminded of this fact.
• If something is really wrong, find a professional way to fix it and keep moving forward.
• Find a way to learn from each patient and each situation no matter how painful.
• Your chief resident and junior resident are there to teach you. Regardless of what you want to do, you have one shot at learning everything that you can.
• Your chief resident and junior resident may have input into your final grade for the rotation, don't screw up because you can't see beyond your nose.
• Be professional and courteous even if you are not "feeling" professional and courteous. You are the only person who can change your attitude by changing your thoughts.
• The clock is ticking and moving. Soon this rotation will be over and you will move onto something else.
• Don't listen and believe everything that you hear. Rely on your own experiences but listen and appreciate those who try to help you.
• Leave the self-centered attitude at the door. The world does not revolve around you and your needs. Be a team-player and don't screw the rest of the team.
• You are the only one who can attend to "your needs". Don't expect the residents or your fellow students to "look out" for you.
• Learn how to manage time. Third-year is different from sitting in a classroom. Always communicate with the students who are leaving the rotation ahead of you so that you get the "heads up" on what is expected.
• Help your fellow students who are strugging when you can. This comes back in spades to help you.

No rotation is going to be perfect. You CAN learn to adjust to anything over the period of time that you are in a specific rotation. Sure there will be times when you are just "hating life" but there will be many more times when you will be loving what you do. If nothing else, when you have a bad experience, you can log it under "What I won't do when I am a resident" so that others behind you won't have a bad experience. The good thing is that "time keeps moving on". Make the clock your friend.

This is excellent advice. I think most of 3rd year is actually not about obtaining medical knowledge (the overt curriculum), but learning flexibility, gaining a tougher shell, learning how to deal with difficult/stressful situations in a professional manner, learning to see the forest for the trees, and other aspects of the "hidden curriculum". The fact that a large portion of 3rd year is subtle, hidden and not talked about by most educators makes it especially challenging for students who are used to simply absorbing book knowledge.

My school has started a 2 week intro to the wards type program which is designed to orient us to the wards. I can say that it was helpful to have some of the practical things like login/passwords for the medical information system and scrubs taken care of before starting for real. There were also some lectures on the "hidden curriculum", as well as opportunities for rounding on patients and practicing presentations.

Although I believe this a step in the right direction, it still did not prepare me fully for the emotional roller coaster of 3rd year and all aspects of the hidden curriculum. It is realistically not very feasible to incorporate all of the subtlties of the work environment in a 2-week program, but at least it is an attempt to introduce us to "life on the wards".

As a student who is also trying to survive my surgery rotation currently, I can say that it is very difficult no matter how you swing it. However, like the above poster mentioned, the rotation is time-limited and focusing on having a positive, helpful attitude is much appreciated by the residents and attendings who themselves work extremely hard. More than most specialties, surgery values hard work and dedication, often to the point of self-sacrifice. The key for medical students, not matter what specialty one desires to pursue, is to find the right balance of working hard, helping the team and learning the surgical approach to disease.