How often do you sign midlevel charts like this without a chance to hear about them - patient seen by NP and dies?

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How many of these HCA/Envision sites etc actually work that way?

It's not just HCA/Envision.

I worked at a TeamHealth site and had absolute 007 agent PLPs (licensed to kill). We couldn't get rid of them.

We were "contractors".
The PLPs were "employees".

I was named in such a suit.
PLP missed a nec.fasc in the groin.
Dead patient.
And here I am, defending the chart which said something like: "I have reviewed this chart and agree with the management/disposition."

It helped that 007 PLP also couldn't chart physical exam findings very well.

Even if the PLP did a good physical exam, they wouldn't know serious pathology if it had a neon sign on it that read: "LOOK HERE! THIS IS REALLY BAD!"

What's more is that 007 staffed the patient with a different doc and then sent the chart to ME.

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It's not just HCA/Envision.

I worked at a TeamHealth site and had absolute 007 agent PLPs (licensed to kill). We couldn't get rid of them.

We were "contractors".
The PLPs were "employees".

I was named in such a suit.
PLP missed a nec.fasc in the groin.
Dead patient.
And here I am, defending the chart which said something like: "I have reviewed this chart and agree with the management/disposition."

It helped that 007 PLP also couldn't chart physical exam findings very well.

Even if the PLP did a good physical exam, they wouldn't know serious pathology if it had a neon sign on it that read: "LOOK HERE! THIS IS REALLY BAD!"

What's more is that 007 staffed the patient with a different doc and then sent the chart to ME.
Did your PLP still manage to completely avoid being named in the suit? Or were they named in the suit and not found liable somehow?
 
Did your PLP still manage to completely avoid being named in the suit? Or were they named in the suit and not found liable somehow?

Everyone named.

Me.
OtherDoc.
PLP.
Hospital.
Nurses.

They eventually dropped me. Eventually. Doesn't mean that it was pleasant. At all.


My other points stand.
 
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It sounds like that lawyer is saying that juries will give doctors a free pass for complete abdication of responsibility by refusing to do their supervisory jobs. If so, it would make most medical legal sense for a doctor (from that lawyer's standpoint) to refuse to see any all all patients seen by PAs, for all time. From a purely legal (not ethical or medical standpoint) he would have to advise you to never see a patient jointly with a PA ever again, if refusing to do so while adding that disclaimer, provides the strongest medica-legal protection. I'm not a lawyer, but I'd be very surprised if that's how it actually plays out in the real world most of the time, that juries reward the complete abdication of responsibility. I find it highly unlikely, but I suppose anything is possible.
I don't think that is what he is saying at all. He is suggesting there are different awards for direct vs. indirect supervision. Your lack of active involvement in a case won't totally absolve you from liability/culpability, but it will help to shield you. Instead of being 50% responsible you may only be 10% responsible or may be dropped.
 
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I would not even say the NP screwed up b/c they don't have the knowledge to discern the subtle differences. They get thrown into the wolves just like EM docs.
The NP murdered this patient. Full stop.

NPPs think medicine is some kind of game.
 
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APCs are pawns worse than EM docs. Their job market is shrinking too and some were promised easy money find this not to be true. No diff than EM docs working crappy jobs with poor support and managing APCs all over the place. The doc are just as much to blame taking on the liabilities but what else are they going to do? They gotta work and as the market tightens up, they have less options.


Bottom line is the EM doc who signs the charts taking on ultimate responsibility takes just as much fault. The lawsuit will go after him/her and will have a mark on their record.

I saw the writing on the wall and got our of the game.
 
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EM Docs are Widgets and who thinks they have much control over pt care is just delusional. The only way to get out is to own something. If you continue to work for the hospital/CMGs and get paid by them, you jump when they tell you to jump. You sign the chart and attest to whatever they want you to attest. Don't and they will find a new widget to sign for 300K.

I don't know where some of attendings work but my past places were so busy, there was no way to see my level 2.5 level 4/5pph and then review another 30 APC pts on my 8 hr shift. I am efficient and fast but Impossible.
 
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Physicians do not have any control over patient care. Nurses, who at MOST, have 4 years of post high school education, control the department. Physician admin shrugs when nurses contribute to harming a patient, but will whip physicians if they hurt a nurse's feelings while they are doing what's best for the patient's care.
 
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The only way to get out is to own something. If you continue to work for the hospital/CMGs and get paid by them, you jump when they tell you to jump. You sign the chart and attest to whatever they want you to attest. Don't and they will find a new widget to sign for 300K.
I've been try to tell people this for ten years. A small minority have listened. The others want to keep chasing what EM ought to be, not what it is.
 
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I saw the writing on the wall and got our of the game.
When did you see the writing on the wall? I ask, because I recall you being one of the ones pushing back, when I was saying some of the things you're saying, a decade ago. What changed your mind?
 
If you all want to keep mid-levels from practicing independently to protect your jobs, then don't complain when you're held liable for a mid-level who's outcomes are dependent on your signature.

Have the courage of your convictions, that you're skills are provably superior, by letting mid-levels practice independently. That way you're not sued when they have a bad outcome. Let their hospital or CMG employer be the deep pocket. Why do you want to be blamed every time something goes wrong?

And don't tell me, "That would be bad for patients." Clearly, signing a chart without meaningful oversight, isn't ensuring good outcomes. If it was, we wouldn't have threads like this over and over again.
Hospitals will still want an attending to be put on everything. Just cause state law says independent doesn't mean there isn't some "supervising" physician in some capacity.
 
Hospitals will still want an attending to be put on everything. Just cause state law says independent doesn't mean there isn't some "supervising" physician in some capacity.
Hopefully that will be the medical director. Being Judas should come with consequences...
 
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When did you see the writing on the wall? I ask, because I recall you being one of the ones pushing back, when I was saying some of the things you're saying, a decade ago. What changed your mind?

I starting getting out of the game 5 yrs ago, completely out 2 yrs ago. I will say my EM history was blessed.

1. Started EM 20 yrs ago when Docs had control, nurse admin would take into consideration our opinions. Docs could do not wrong and it was almost impossible to fire an EM doc. I can tell you stories that will shock some with how hard it was to get rid of an EM doc. The docs owned our own group, made our own decisions, told admin what was best and listened most of the time. 7 yrs ago we were "forced" to be bought out.
2. Obama care hit. Everyone sees the obvious impacts but do not see the subtle metric impacts/rules/EMRs/carrier restraints, etc
3. Things started to go downhill after the buy out and we became a widget. I stayed for 2 yrs b/c of our buyout agreement but I could see the righting on the wall after the buy out. I was the department chief and knew crap that most never see. I soon left after the buy out.
4. Endured 2 yrs as a line doc and jumped ship right at yr 2 and switched to Locums along with investing in FSERs.
5. Locums was great 5 yrs ago b/c there was a great shortage of EM docs. As a locums I ignored all metrics, never went to any mtgs, picked the shifts I wanted to work, Got paid 375-500/hr. It was actually a great experience b/c I just practiced medicine and ignored all of the other metrics crap that the full timers had to deal with. They were hiring such crappy docs and I was essentially untouchable b/c I was a strong clinician.
6. Locums went to the crapper 2 yrs ago and no way was I going to pick up shifts for $275/hr even as a part timer. Switched fully to FSERs.
7. I now have probably the best EM job in the world. I get paid many times more/hr than line docs, in some months it is almost obscene. I am an owner, make whatever medical decisions I want, have no metrics, no admin to worry about, see 1 pph at the most efficient environment you will ever work in, taking care of mostly compliant/educated/healthy pts that actually care about their health. I can't remember the last time I saw poorly controlled diabetic with renal failure/chf/neuropathy who had no clue what meds they were on. Image a work place where you can do a PE full workup, CP eval, Abd pain eval with CT under 60 min. Pt checks in, I see them @ 5 min, orders placed, blood drawn already, labs completed @20 min, CT completed @30min, and report back @40min.

EM was still great until about 2 yrs ago. I still think its a good field and makes good money. New docs wont care b/c that is what they are used to. Older docs are who have the most complaints.
 
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EmergentMD, your story is great, and I'm glad you made an exit. I had the exact same locums experience you did (all the money with no responsibilities). However exiting the CMG ED through the FSED route is no longer an option. There simply isn't the ability to open a physician-owned FSED anymore. In my state it's actually illegal. Other states like TX have seen the bottom drop out and tons of the physician-owned companies go bankrupt. Do you see any market in the US where privately-owned FSED is still viable?
 
New physician owned FSEDs are still opening in houston, and I happen to work in one. They are still viable, as long as you don’t get stupid and greedy like neighbors or first choice.

Even if you can’t own a FSED, here, even just working in an independent physician owned FSED as a employee/contractor is still a pretty good deal, despite the paycut that you would incur.
 
I starting getting out of the game 5 yrs ago, completely out 2 yrs ago. I will say my EM history was blessed.

1. Started EM 20 yrs ago when Docs had control, nurse admin would take into consideration our opinions. Docs could do not wrong and it was almost impossible to fire an EM doc. I can tell you stories that will shock some with how hard it was to get rid of an EM doc. The docs owned our own group, made our own decisions, told admin what was best and listened most of the time. 7 yrs ago we were "forced" to be bought out.
2. Obama care hit. Everyone sees the obvious impacts but do not see the subtle metric impacts/rules/EMRs/carrier restraints, etc
3. Things started to go downhill after the buy out and we became a widget. I stayed for 2 yrs b/c of our buyout agreement but I could see the righting on the wall after the buy out. I was the department chief and knew crap that most never see. I soon left after the buy out.
4. Endured 2 yrs as a line doc and jumped ship right at yr 2 and switched to Locums along with investing in FSERs.
5. Locums was great 5 yrs ago b/c there was a great shortage of EM docs. As a locums I ignored all metrics, never went to any mtgs, picked the shifts I wanted to work, Got paid 375-500/hr. It was actually a great experience b/c I just practiced medicine and ignored all of the other metrics crap that the full timers had to deal with. They were hiring such crappy docs and I was essentially untouchable b/c I was a strong clinician.
6. Locums went to the crapper 2 yrs ago and no way was I going to pick up shifts for $275/hr even as a part timer. Switched fully to FSERs.
7. I now have probably the best EM job in the world. I get paid many times more/hr than line docs, in some months it is almost obscene. I am an owner, make whatever medical decisions I want, have no metrics, no admin to worry about, see 1 pph at the most efficient environment you will ever work in, taking care of mostly compliant/educated/healthy pts that actually care about their health. I can't remember the last time I saw poorly controlled diabetic with renal failure/chf/neuropathy who had no clue what meds they were on. Image a work place where you can do a PE full workup, CP eval, Abd pain eval with CT under 60 min. Pt checks in, I see them @ 5 min, orders placed, blood drawn already, labs completed @20 min, CT completed @30min, and report back @40min.

EM was still great until about 2 yrs ago. I still think its a good field and makes good money. New docs wont care b/c that is what they are used to. Older docs are who have the most complaints.
So you must easily be clearing 1M+ per year while working an easy job..wow
 
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EmergentMD, your story is great, and I'm glad you made an exit. I had the exact same locums experience you did (all the money with no responsibilities). However exiting the CMG ED through the FSED route is no longer an option. There simply isn't the ability to open a physician-owned FSED anymore. In my state it's actually illegal. Other states like TX have seen the bottom drop out and tons of the physician-owned companies go bankrupt. Do you see any market in the US where privately-owned FSED is still viable?

Reading some of your past posts, I would not be shocked if I worked in the same area even the same hospital. I will tell you that only a few states are FSERs legal which I have no clue why. Well I know but its all about the corporate greed keeping the docs chained to their corporate jobs. Imagine if docs were allowed to compete against hospital ERs taking in similar reimbursements. Hospital ERs would bleed money and would only have uninsured/underinsured pts.

I will stay it is increasingly more difficult to open a FSER given the uncertainty and increased headwinds. But if you are able to get it off the ground and pay off all the debt, the bar to profitability is not high. Covid has been a godsend for many FSERs.

FSERs have its own risks and its not all roses but almost everyone in life becomes successful when they are willing to take risks. The safe route is to continue to work for a CMG and make 300K/yr working 30 hrs/wk but you essentially capped your ceiling while being beholden to your master.
 
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New physician owned FSEDs are still opening in houston, and I happen to work in one. They are still viable, as long as you don’t get stupid and greedy like neighbors or first choice.

Even if you can’t own a FSED, here, even just working in an independent physician owned FSED as a employee/contractor is still a pretty good deal, despite the paycut that you would incur.
True and True. I know of 5-10 that opened in the past year and some are completely physician owned. I probably would have jumped on some in my earlier career but I am at the point where enough is enough. I am actually paring down my amount of work significantly and hope to get down to 4 shifts a month by the end of the year.

If you don't/can't be an owner, I think its better working a FSER 24hr shift at 150-175/hr IC rather than a busy hospital making 225/hr W2.

Neighbors/FCER tried to go the VC/Market route to make the big owners rich and used the docs as pawns. The early owners got rich and the later "owners" got screwed. Thus never trust any large corporate groups.
 
So you must easily be clearing 1M+ per year while working an easy job..wow
The only person I have ever told is my wife. Until I retire, the numbers will never leave my lips.

I will say that if I was offered $500/hr to work a hospital shift like the good old days I would not even pick up the phone.
 
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Neighbors was a really interesting trainwreck to watch. They opened two of them near my hospitals in South Texas when I was working there. They never really got off the ground, and the physicians they employed seemed to be weak clinically. Part of this was due to the salary, I think $150/hr, which was pathetic at a time when things were paying $300/hr or more in TX. They closed up shop after less than a year.
 
We opened one of our FSERs in the same town as Neighbors. When we bought the land and started to break ground, we saw a Neighbors started building. They actually opened up 6-12 months before we did and had 2nd thoughts on opening ours due to competition.

Less than one yr after we opened, they closed shop. All the docs who "bought in" lost their shirt. Two yrs later, the community knows we are the best place to go in town. When the docs own the sites, the work environment/pts care&experience is drastically better. I mean if you can go into our ER and 95% of the time leave within 1 hr, why would you go to the hospital and sit in a loud place with people yelling/vomiting/crying all over the place?
 
The only person I have ever told is my wife. Until I retire, the numbers will never leave my lips.

I will say that if I was offered $500/hr to work a hospital shift like the good old days I would not even pick up the phone.
You know this is an anonymous forum right? Also anyone can say whatever they want and it’s not verifiable..lol
 
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taking care of mostly compliant/educated/healthy pts that actually care about their health. I can't remember the last time I saw poorly controlled diabetic with renal failure/chf/neuropathy who had no clue what meds they were on.

This alone makes it sound like an awesome gig
 
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You know this is an anonymous forum right? Also anyone can say whatever they want and it’s not verifiable..lol
True but I always tell the truth. Sometimes the truth creates too many issues. There would be docs who would call me a liar. Docs who tell me to shut up b/c its not realistic and its all pixy dusts. Insurance Co who will start to research who I am.

I am taking this to my attending grave. When I am out of the game, I will come back and maybe write a book on here. But my grave may be another 30 yrs b/c I really do have the dream job.
 
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This alone makes it sound like an awesome gig
I do not believe I have seen a dialysis pt in 3 yrs. If I did it had nothing to do with their RF b/c they know how to take care of themselves. I still remember the "ER" smell of poorly hygienic pts walking in their bare feet through the ER to the bathroom wondering how these people even exist. In our FSERs, there is a fridge full of water, snacks, coffee machine and smells cleaner than an office building. Rarely do we get a pt that doesn't shower atleast once a day.

I would say my pt population medical hx is 60% no medical problems, 15% has htn, 5% DM, and 10% other. Rarely do they come in b/c their BP or glucose is out of control. I see more pts with insulin pumps who actually knows more about glucose control in a yr than I prob saw in 15 yrs in the hospital.
 
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It's amazing how many dialysis patients have no idea who their nephrologist is. You're getting dialysis 3 times a week!
 
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Hospital ER pts are extremely uneducated. As I progressed in my attending career, I stopped depending on their Hx and went mostly with my exam/vitals/labs. Seriously got tired of asking them what medication they are on and told that it is the "Yellow Pill" and have the confused look when I tell them that doesn't help.

Seriously makes me laugh and cry every time.
 
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True but I always tell the truth. Sometimes the truth creates too many issues. There would be docs who would call me a liar. Docs who tell me to shut up b/c its not realistic and its all pixy dusts. Insurance Co who will start to research who I am.

I am taking this to my attending grave. When I am out of the game, I will come back and maybe write a book on here. But my grave may be another 30 yrs b/c I really do have the dream job.
Wish you the best man, no reason to hate others who are making it rain, keep playing playa
 
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FSER is all about EMS traffic. You do not get the chronically ill train wrecks because they self select for going to the full fledge hospital.

I find FSER to be nothing but assembly lines of glorified Urgent Care patients charged ED level facility fees.

The future is not FSER. Big hospital corporations are in bed with state/local governments to block this type of thing. This is what happens in most situations.
 
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FSER is all about EMS traffic. You do not get the chronically ill train wrecks because they self select for going to the full fledge hospital.

I find FSER to be nothing but assembly lines of glorified Urgent Care patients charged ED level facility fees.

The future is not FSER. Big hospital corporations are in bed with state/local governments to block this type of thing. This is what happens in most situations.

It may not be the future in some states, but as far as FSEDs being 'assembly lines of glorified Urgent Care patients charged ED level facility fees', even if true, is trivially so. This same thing happens at Hospital EDs, ALL THE TIME, and without any kind of price transparency. At least at the FSEDs I work at, patients can get up front pricing, and many self-pay patients will still choose to pay out of pocket and use our facility. I've also seen plenty of sick people in freestanding facilities, intubated covid patients, placed lines and chest tubes, and put a-fib rvr patients on diltiazem drips etc.
 
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This is just another hit piece by the corporate HCAs/Carriers to shut down competition that they can not compete in. Let me state some facts from my experience

1. Cost - FSERs in general are cheaper. We bill similar rates as hospitals but without all the add on crap that you see such as trauma activation. So the complaint that they cost more than hospitals are universally untrue.

2. Transparency - FSERs are way more transparent with their billing and you atleast get someone to talk to. Go to a hospital and you will get 4 bills from different entities that you can't even get in touch with

3. Access - If the FSERs did not exist, most would go to the hospitals getting a higher bill/costing pt much more

4. Taking care of non ER pts. I have worked in hospital ERs and 80% of my pts did not need to be in the ER but you still see Hospitals advertising how their wait times are low so come all.

The Carriers want to get rid of FSERs b/c people use it more. If they had their way, they would put all the ERs on an island that requires someone take a 5 hr boat trip to go to. Hospitals want to get rid of FSERS b/c they know they can't compete and want that revenue.

FSERs are the model of American capitalism that monopolies are trying to squash. So unamerican. Imagine if the government went to Target and closed them down b/c they didn't want people to spend too much money and rather them go to walmart. People would never stand for this.

All of these articles and complaints are from corporate bought legislatures knowing they just can't compete so they will legislate this out.
 
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I worked a shift at a FSER once in Texas. 1hr from Houston. Pay was $125/hr. I saw 4 pts in 12hrs, none required labs. The staff -- one doc, two nurses , one tech and a receptionist. The doctor's lounge was the nicest and cleanest I've ever seen. Perfect gig for a burnt-out mid career doc with a good nest egg.
 
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There are FSER gigs seeing less than 8ppd paying 150+/hr. I will say doing 8 shifts/mo sleeping most nights making 350K is not a bad gig at all. You can do many hobbies and side gigs too.
 
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Did one last night at my CMG-managed hospital owned place. $220/hr and I saw no patients after 1 AM and took a nice nap. It's easy, but my time is still valuable. I'd rather work an 8-hour shift in one of the busy places and make $100 more per hour doing it.

Definitely a great place to work for slower, older docs or ones who have reached FIRE.
 
$220/hr to work at a FSED like that is a pretty good rate. To get paid another $100/hr for Hospital ED shifts is simply not going to happen in this day and age!
 
$220/hr to work at a FSED like that is a pretty good rate. To get paid another $100/hr for Hospital ED shifts is simply not going to happen in this day and age!
You can still make $300/hr or more, but the jobs are rare and vanishing. It's the only thing keeping me from retiring completely from medicine right now. I need to try and ride out the gravy train until the end.
 
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If you can find a FSER that pays you 220/hr and seeing less than 1pph, you should jump at it quick. There are a bunch of Hospital sites paying that or less seeing 2-3x sicker pts.
 
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Did one last night at my CMG-managed hospital owned place. $220/hr and I saw no patients after 1 AM and took a nice nap. It's easy, but my time is still valuable. I'd rather work an 8-hour shift in one of the busy places and make $100 more per hour doing it.

Definitely a great place to work for slower, older docs or ones who have reached FIRE.
Time is definitely valuable but if you get to sleep 5-7 hrs/night that is not a bad gig.

Even if you can find a hospital 300/hr, you have to work 17.5 hrs to equal a 24hr FSER shift. I don't even think these two jobs are comparable. The recovery from both is night and day.
 
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