How often do you sign midlevel charts like this without a chance to hear about them - patient seen by NP and dies?

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wamcp

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52 year old female.
Presented with severe thoracic back pain. 10/10 pain. Mild hypotension noted at nurse triage. Triaged as lowest priority to be seen and flagged for NP to see.
Seen by NP. (length of consultation 6 MINUTES)
Documented - 'Low interscapula back pain, midline, 10/10, sharp, relived by nothing, worsening over 17 hours'.
No PMH documented. Then comments on history of hypercholesterinemia/lipedema. Smoker. (known Ischemic heart disease risk factors).
No vital signs documented. NO systems review. NO negative symptoms documented.
Incomplete physical examination - essentially palpated patients back. No Respiratory/Cardiovascular or neuro examinations.
Midline lower-interscapula pain - diagnoses 'trapezius spasm'. No other differentials considered.
No diagnostic testing ordered.
60mg prednisolone. 5mg valium and discharged with oral prednisolone 7 days.
No discharge summary completed.
Patient represented 4 days later. Unfortunately died in cath lab from MI. (notes not very available as is separate court case).

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Hopefully never! This does look like someone who also may have been inappropriately triaged.
 
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Hopefully never! This does look like someone who also may have been inappropriately triaged.
Which happens all the time, which is why we don’t have triage nurses being definitive ER care. Also why the argument that “NPs just see the EASY cases!” is complete nonsense. Tell me which cases are easy right off the bat and I’ll concede that my job is redundant.
 
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From the article:

"The NP diagrammed the pain as being low midline/interscapular and diagnosed Trapezius muscle spasm; despite the Trapezius not being in this region."

Yep.
Sounds like an NP.
 
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Finally, review of the hospital’s healthcare consent for treatment...fails to make any reference, whatsoever, to the use of Mid Level Providers to replace the services routinely provides by Board Certified Emergency Physicians, such as Dr. ***** B*** , M.D. who was used as the “Billing Provider”.

Yikes, does this mean the listed ‘billing provider’ attending physician who never heard or saw the pt is on the hook too?
 
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This chart is being signed administratively. I was not informed of this patient being in the emergency department during the time of their visit and was not asked or given the opportunity to obtain a history, perform a physical exam, order ancillary testing, or participate in their medical decision making.
 
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The NP certainly screwed up here. That said, the prosecution's expert witness went a bit off the rails. The website author addressed this as well. The expert witness was calling the NP out for not doing things like "checking for thoracic bruits... as would typically be done."

Really? Checking for a thoracic bruit on a patient with back pain? That's part of your routine exam along with your exhaustive list of irrelevant crap that you do on every back pain patient?

The NP screwed up royally. You don't need to make things up to crucify them. They've done that already. A good lawyer will rip this expert witness apart.

EDIT: to answer OP's question, our group only hires PAs, not NPs. The PAs function like a resident in that they present every single patient to me and I generally go and at least eyeball all of them briefly.
 
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This chart is being signed administratively. I was not informed of this patient being in the emergency department during the time of their visit and was not asked or given the opportunity to obtain a history, perform a physical exam, order ancillary testing, or participate in their medical decision making.

Does this fly? Are they able to practice independently in ED? (I am asking)
 
The NP certainly screwed up here. That said, the prosecution's expert witness went a bit off the rails. The website author addressed this as well. The expert witness was calling the NP out for not doing things like "checking for thoracic bruits... as would typically be done."

Really? Checking for a thoracic bruit on a patient with back pain? That's part of your routine exam along with your exhaustive list of irrelevant crap that you do on every back pain patient?

The NP screwed up royally. You don't need to make things up to crucify them. They've done that already. A good lawyer will rip this expert witness apart.

EDIT: to answer OP's question, our group only hires PAs, not NPs. The PAs function like a resident in that they present every single patient to me and I generally go and at least eyeball all of them
10/10 thoracic back pain in the context of hypotension is a red flag that requires a good physical exam so he’s not too out of line
 
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10/10 thoracic back pain in the context of hypotension is a red flag that requires a good physical exam so he’s not too out of line
Not disagreeing with your sentiment. I'm saying this is a court of law and his statements are being taken verbatim. Saying that a careful physical examination is required in this scenario is valid. Giving a laundry list of physical examination requirements and stating that it is the standard of care is clearly false and just opens the door for the defense to go after every correct thing the witness said.
 
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From the article:

"The NP diagrammed the pain as being low midline/interscapular and diagnosed Trapezius muscle spasm; despite the Trapezius not being in this region."

Yep.
Sounds like an NP.
The trapezius absolutely does extend into midline-interscapular area. Not that it matters to the outcome. But it is an example of false testimony paid expert witnesses can give, which can bias a jury.
 
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Which happens all the time, which is why we don’t have triage nurses being definitive ER care. Also why the argument that “NPs just see the EASY cases!” is complete nonsense. Tell me which cases are easy right off the bat and I’ll concede that my job is redundant.
You don't know what an easy case is if you can't recognize a hard case. NP-led care basically is a system that is content to let every unusual presentation die
 
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The trapezius absolutely does extend into midline-interscapular area. Not that it matters to the outcome. But it is an example of false testimony paid expert witnesses can give, which can bias a jury.

I'm willing to bet that by "low midline", he's referring to a position below the midway point of the medial border of the scapula, with one of those silly EMR Ken-doll style diagrams indicating that this is nowhere near the inferior border of the Trapezius.

But yeah. I get what you're saying, amigo
 
If you all want to keep mid-levels from practicing independently to protect your jobs, then don't complain when you're held liable for a mid-level who's outcomes are dependent on your signature.

Have the courage of your convictions, that you're skills are provably superior, by letting mid-levels practice independently. That way you're not sued when they have a bad outcome. Let their hospital or CMG employer be the deep pocket. Why do you want to be blamed every time something goes wrong?

And don't tell me, "That would be bad for patients." Clearly, signing a chart without meaningful oversight, isn't ensuring good outcomes. If it was, we wouldn't have threads like this over and over again.
 
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Maybe I’ll change the target of my question. Are YOU serious?
If admin is forcing everyone to write a fraudulent statement that they evaluated a patient that an NP saw that they never actually evaluated, there should be something done about that
 
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If admin is forcing everyone to write a fraudulent statement that they evaluated a patient that an NP saw that they never actually evaluated, there should be something done about that
Im not sure you are following. Did you read southern’s post?
 
Haha, I'm subscribed to this as well, but can't see all of it behind the paywall. I wonder if the guy can partner with SDN and get us some discounts. Would love to discuss these cases on here and here what real life attendings on SDN have to say.
 
From the article:

"The NP diagrammed the pain as being low midline/interscapular and diagnosed Trapezius muscle spasm; despite the Trapezius not being in this region."

Yep.
Sounds like an NP.

It could technically be a lower trapezius strain. I've done something similar while deadlifting and felt pain in my midback at the level of the sternum. But seriously... No Troponins/EKG? Come on... What's going on. She has all the risk factors like the article pointed out and she's a woman.
 
Im not sure you are following. Did you read southern’s post?
? I agree with his statement he’s saying that he didn’t see the patient that’s what everyone should be writing..also I just read somewhere they’re apparently renaming physician assistants to physician associates...healthcare is a done field tell your children to look elsewhere
 
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This is just the cost of doing business just like Walmart accepting 5 finger discount, Costco taking back 2 yr old items. It is built into the cost/profit model. Obviously nothing to do with quality of care.

Hospitals/CMGs know it will cost them with increased liability coverage but decreased salary liability greatly outweighs this. They can care less about the pts. The docs are stuck in the middle with really no way out. What really is the ER doc's choice? They can not possibly see all of the ML pts. They can not possibly require all ML pts to be discussed with them less they get the wrath of the ML group + CMG + hospital. Be the outlier and you will be out of a job b/c they will find someone who is willing to not create waves.

Sadly, this situation is unavoidable for the EM doc. Its just the game of russian roulette we all play. I would not even say the NP screwed up b/c they don't have the knowledge to discern the subtle differences. They get thrown into the wolves just like EM docs.
 
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? I agree with his statement he’s saying that he didn’t see the patient that’s what everyone should be writing..also I just read somewhere they’re apparently renaming physician assistants to physician associates...healthcare is a done field tell your children to look elsewhere
Correct. And I said that if you write that you will be fired. Attendings (especially in the ER) will/have become liability shields for large hospitals/health care corporations.
 
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Correct. And I said that if you write that you will be fired. Attendings (especially in the ER) will/have become liability shields for large hospitals/health care corporations.
Yes, then I said if you are writing that you saw a patient or “supervised” without actually doing that you are commiting healthcare fraud and if a hospital is firing you for not commiting said fraud that is a juicy case
 
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I require every ML patient to be discussed with me prior to admission/discharge. I review vital signs, age and chief complaint as well as labs on all of them. I've saved a few patients from death.
 
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I require every ML patient to be discussed with me prior to admission/discharge. I review vital signs, age and chief complaint as well as labs on all of them. I've saved a few patients from death.
Yeah I can’t imagine signing a chart and not seeing the patient. Why the hell would I take liability without being involved? Honestly my job now is great, it’s like supervising a resident and you get to know your mid levels. Ends up at about 4 pts/hr but is sustainable.
 
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10/10 thoracic back pain in the context of hypotension is a red flag that requires a good physical exam CT scan so he’s not too out of line.
FTFY

Also, mini-rant. 10/10, 3/10, 15/10 none of it has any prognostic significance and we need to stop acting like it does. Wasn't the opioid epidemic enough of an unintended side effect for us to just scrap the whole thing? That being said, 8/10 pain usually means there's something bad going on.
 
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Yeah I can’t imagine signing a chart and not seeing the patient. Why the hell would I take liability without being involved? Honestly my job now is great, it’s like supervising a resident and you get to know your mid levels. Ends up at about 4 pts/hr but is sustainable.
Exactly. Do 3-5 patient's per hour. The vast majority of midlevel patients don't actually need me to see them, but at least a real-time triage note, vitals, and lab review is enough to screen out for some badness.
 
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This chart is being signed administratively. I was not informed of this patient being in the emergency department during the time of their visit and was not asked or given the opportunity to obtain a history, perform a physical exam, order ancillary testing, or participate in their medical decision making.
Yeah unfortunately I don't know to what degree this statement would limit your liability from a malpractice case. It's a ****ty reality.
 
Not saying that the np did it right but back pain, smoking, hld are all ridiculously common. People claiming 10/10 pain while chillin on their iphone is a dime a dozen. I'm not sure I'd be so quick to crucify this provider despite being one of the biggest anti mid level people out there. I mean I have interscapular back pain right now. Do I need serial trops and a contrast ct?
 
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Not saying that the np did it right but back pain, smoking, hld are all ridiculously common. People claiming 10/10 pain while chillin on their iphone is ridiculously common. I'm not sure I'd be so quick to crucify this provider and I am one of the biggest anti mid level people out there. I mean I have interscapular back pain right now. Do I need serial trops and a contrast ct?
Do you have excruciating 10/10 pain with serious risk factors? If so then yes
 
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This chart is being signed administratively. I was not informed of this patient being in the emergency department during the time of their visit and was not asked or given the opportunity to obtain a history, perform a physical exam, order ancillary testing, or participate in their medical decision making.

This case is being filed for money with you as the plaintiff, your name is on the chart, you were in the department, you had greater knowledge and a duty to act. Clearly gross malpractice DOCTOR (who has $1m in coverage) that you didn't help this nurse (who has $200k in coverage)!

Explain to me why I shouldn't be disillusioned with medicine?
 
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This chart is being signed administratively. I was not informed of this patient being in the emergency department during the time of their visit and was not asked or given the opportunity to obtain a history, perform a physical exam, order ancillary testing, or participate in their medical decision making.
Is this the kind of thing malpractice defense attorneys are advising people to put in charts, as if writing this line is going to protect you? It reads more like a confession, to me.

Jury, after reading the above in bold: "The only thing worse than poor supervision, is no supervision."

"Guilty."
 
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Going through litigation now (will discuss when resolved, very unbelievable case), I've had quite a lot of discussion about these things with my malpractice attorney.

Key points from someone who is well respected in medical defense work:

1. If you document that you considered it, but the patient ultimately had it (i.e., symptoms not suggestive of aortic dissection), it's easier for him to defend you. There's a reason you didn't think the picture fit. If you didn't document you considered it, plaintiff will argue you were incompetent and that it should've been considered.

2. Patients in the waiting room that have bad outcomes are unlikely to successfully sue the doc that didn't know about them or couldn't participate in their care. Yes, there are a few successful cases, but they're rare.

3. Documentation like what I posted will show that the NP/PA didn't talk to you about the patient. Unless the plaintiff can prove you knew patient was in department (i.e., you clicked on their chart or something else that is shown in the chart audit trail), then it makes it harder to get a judgement from you or show that you had a high allocation to the bad outcome (in some cases, percentages are assigned: PA responsible for 80%, doc responsible for 10%, surgeon responsible for 5%, patient 5%, etc.).

4. There is always some expert witness needing to make his mortgage, credit card, or Ferrari payment who will say anything is negligent or grossly negligent without even knowing what either means. That means that any patient can file a suit regardless of how well your care was. Doesn't mean that they will win, but even the best documentation doesn't mean the patient won't file.

5. Keep your outside communication to a minimum. Although its rare for the plaintiff attorney to get your actual text messages, they can discover how many were sent during your shift. If you're texting your friends about golf, wife about dinner plans, etc. and send 80 text messages in a 10-hour shift, the plaintiff can argue that you were distracted and not paying attention to your patients. One recent case involved an emergency physician going through a divorce who communicated with his wife with over 150 text messages and 3 phone calls in a 10-hour shift. Plaintiff argued that he was distracted causing him to miss a devastating injury resulting in patient death.

If anything goes to trial, most juries side with the docs. Most docs are well intentioned, and judgements against docs are not as common as you think. We all hear about the docs losing, but rarely do we hear about docs winning because the docs usually don't talk about it. The only reason we hear about losing cases is because plaintiff attorneys contact the media to publish things. Luckily I live in a county where juries side with the docs >85% of the time if things go to trial.
 
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Correct. And I said that if you write that you will be fired. Attendings (especially in the ER) will/have become liability shields for large hospitals/health care corporations.
I have yet to see an ED malpractice case where the hospital was not named and found liable if a judgement for the plaintiff was rendered. Attorneys always go for the deep pockets; and the deep pockets are not the physician.
 
This case is being filed for money with you as the plaintiff, your name is on the chart, you were in the department, you had greater knowledge and a duty to act. Clearly gross malpractice DOCTOR (who has $1m in coverage) that you didn't help this nurse (who has $200k in coverage)!

Explain to me why I shouldn't be disillusioned with medicine?
Except the one who will actually pay the judgement is the hospital system with $500M in cash.
 
3. Documentation like what I posted will show that the NP/PA didn't talk to you about the patient. Unless the plaintiff can prove you knew patient was in department (i.e., you clicked on their chart or something else that is shown in the chart audit trail), then it makes it harder to get a judgement from you or show that you had a high allocation to the bad outcome (in some cases, percentages are assigned: PA responsible for 80%, doc responsible for 10%, surgeon responsible for 5%, patient 5%, etc.).
It sounds like that lawyer is saying that juries will give doctors a free pass for complete abdication of responsibility by refusing to do their supervisory jobs. If so, it would make most medical legal sense for a doctor (from that lawyer's standpoint) to refuse to see any all all patients seen by PAs, for all time. From a purely legal (not ethical or medical standpoint) he would have to advise you to never see a patient jointly with a PA ever again, if refusing to do so while adding that disclaimer, provides the strongest medica-legal protection. I'm not a lawyer, but I'd be very surprised if that's how it actually plays out in the real world most of the time, that juries reward the complete abdication of responsibility. I find it highly unlikely, but I suppose anything is possible.
 
I work at a place where we are just expected to sign NPP charts. I quickly learned that if I tried to glance are charts that will be assigned to me and mention something even briefly to the NP like hey you might want to check this lab or give some fluids they will document “case presented and discussed with Dr Mushdoc” and now I have to go actually see the patient and do a full evaluation. Better I think to say I was available and not consulted
 
I work at a place where we are just expected to sign NPP charts. I quickly learned that if I tried to glance are charts that will be assigned to me and mention something even briefly to the NP like hey you might want to check this lab or give some fluids they will document “case presented and discussed with Dr Mushdoc” and now I have to go actually see the patient and do a full evaluation. Better I think to say I was available and not consulted
That may run afoul of hospital by-laws. It sounds like a baller (and true) thing to document, but peer review would probably come down on you harshly. Also, any director worth their salt would counsel than fire you if you continued to do it.
 
What is the right way to attest these notes (patients who were not discussed and just blindly forwarded for attention)?
Can I write an addendum like this.

"MLP did not discussed this case with me. I neither interviewed the patient to obtain a history nor performed a physical examination. I reviewed the documentation including assessment and plan by midlevel provider, labs and imaging. I was available in the facility for questions regarding the care of this patient. "
 
That may run afoul of hospital by-laws. It sounds like a baller (and true) thing to document, but peer review would probably come down on you harshly. Also, any director worth their salt would counsel than fire you if you continued to do it.
In that case the group and director need to establish the expectation that every patient will be,at the very least, formally presented to the doc.

I used to be in a situation like this, and I would’ve had no problem throwing the Med director and CMG under the bus.

If it’s the policy, then they need to enforce it, which means no cowboy midlevels running around seeing 3 pph and refusing tI staff patients.
 
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