How much research experience is enough to apply for MSTP?

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ComplexPuzzle

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as the subject say how much is enough...i have done one year at NIH and am doing to research projects during this summer (one basic and one clinical)...i want to know if this is enough...or should i try doing some research during my MS2 year while i apply to the MSTP program...thanks

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More research is always better. However, you've done plenty of research already. You can do more research to buff up your application. What's more important is that you know the research you've done inside and out when it comes to interview. Do you have your name on any publications? If so, that helps too.

If you work in multiple labs/multiple projects for short periods of time, you risk falling into the trap of only knowing those projects at a superficial level. On the other hand, if you've devoted yourself to a particular project in one lab over a long period of time, you may be in more in tune with the nuts, bolts, and subtleties of your projects and your lab's projects. And when you let that show during interviews, that scores you a lot of positive points.

Just my 2 cents.
 
no matter how much research experience you've had, it will never make up for low mcat scores and gpa. just my humble opinion
 
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psyuk-
i will not assume that your comment was directed towards me...however when replying to a post, it is always wise and appreciated if you reply to the question asked...i did not say nor was it implied that i had poor MCAT scores or a low GPA...in fact that is not the case...i am ALREADY in med school so my scores were good enough to get me where i wanted to go...my question was about my qualifications for MD/PhD...therefore your comment was neither helpful nor pertinent...however i will say thank you for taking the time to read my post
 
Hey complex, I understand your sentiment. I don't necessarily think that psyuk's comments about low GPA and MCAT were targeted specifically at you. I agree with his statement that low numbers, in general, will hurt an applicant's chances for admission into MD/PhD programs. Not as many people apply for these programs, compared to straight MD programs. However, the people that do apply to MD/PhD are a selective bunch of folks who tend to have very strong numbers.

Granted, you stated that you're an MS2 which means your numbers are likely to be strong already to have gotten you this far in life. The only variable left in your equation is research experience. For people in your shoes, it is that part of the application that needs to be strengthened and brought out in the best possible light. Regarding specific advice for you, read my previous post :)
 
i couldn't give you a straight answer because there were a few assumptions one had to make in order to give proper advice.

i now know that you are already in med scool and are an ms2. i can safely assume that you did your research at nih prior to med school.

i'd recommend you to get a rec from your former boss at nih. like andy said it would be nice to have your name on one or two publications. otherwise your nih research experience is meaningless to the admin committee. in that case you have to rely soley on your summer research, and that's tough because two or three months won't give you enough time to generate publishable data esp. considering that you are taking on two projects.
 
i take issue with psyuk's statement that "your nih research experience is meaningless to the admin committee" unless you have "your name on one or two publications." pubs are certainly NOT a prerequisite for md/phd admission, no matter how you cut it.

of course, that's not to say that publications won't help you. experience in scientific writing/presentation (e.g.- undergrad or master's thesis, conference abstract, publication, grant proposal, etc) is obviously looked upon favorably. however, at this stage in an applicant's research career, most of the actual writing for a publication will probably be done by others and, unless he/she was first author, i would seriously doubt that the admissions committee expects otherwise.

just my thoughts. best,
aaron
 
hmm...i don't get it.

an md/phd applicant has done one year of lab work at nih, a research powerhouse, and he/she can't even contribute one figure to the paper submitted for publication?

anyhow, best of luck to you complex.
 
psyuk,

1) yes, it's possible that complex's research experience was unsuccessful. and yes, in that case, maybe it would impact the committee's perception of his/her candidacy. however, even so, a significant amount of research fails and, as i was trying to point out in my post, the number of publications an applicant has is not the gold standard for md/phd admissions. in my personal opinion it is more important that complex understands his/her research, its possible conclusions (as well as shortcomings) and, if it was a "failure," why (and/or how those problems could be remedied).

2) the more likely possibility here (in my opinion) is that the data which complex collected during that year at nih is in the process of being integrated into a larger paper that will be written by someone else for publication. as was implicit in my post, this is often the case with undergrad or post-grad researchers who only have a limited amount of time on a given project. in any event, manuscripts often take a long time to get written, edited, approved and (finally) published. thus, perhaps in six months to a year, complex will have his/her name on a publication. will it really make that big of a difference? i tend to think not.

3) finally, perhaps the difference between quality and quantity of research explains why complex doesn't have his/her name on a publication. having written an undergrad thesis and edited several others, i have an appreciation for the spectrum of quality involved in undergrad/post-grad research. even though one of those theses was brimming with biochemical data, it was missing several important controls and thus failed to fully account for all possible conclusions. given this and the fact that the final decision to publish rests with a PI, it seems reasonable to conclude that differing standards of proof (or quality of research, as i would say) among PIs would also contribute to an applicant's total number of publications.

4) along this same line then is a fundamental question: are two crappy third-author publications (to which you contributed data for one of eight or so figures) really preferable to a solid, second-author paper, which includes a significant amount of high-quality data you collected? it depends on who you ask, i guess... but i think most admissions committees would opt for the latter.

5) whatever the case may be, psyuk, you need to be a little less dismissive... particularly given how little you know about complex and/or the specifics of his/her research experience. complex came to this forum for honest, objective advice, which should include reasonable responses for all possible scenarios without falling back on (often incorrect) assumptions.

aaron
 
nicely put aaron.

i know from first hand experience that publications are not the be-all-end-all of one's application. when i applied to MSTP programs (quite a while ago), i knew people who had lesser GPA/MCATs then me and no publications. they ended up being accepted by better schools (schools i considered 1st and 2nd choice) whereas i got rejected. at that time i was very bitter and upset and thought life was unfair. i now realize that there are many factors going into the success of an MSTP applicant during the application process besides grades/MCATs/publications. based on that, not having a publication certainly does NOT deter you from getting accepted into MSTP programs.

psyuk, from your tone, i can infer that you do have a publication or two or three...etc. wonderful, more power to ya man
 
^yeah andy, don't you feel all warm and fuzzy inside whenever you see your name on pubmed? :D

aaron, that was an airtight response. i think we both agree that there's just too many variables an scenarios to consider in complex's case because he/she hasn't given us enough info to work with.

having said that one year at nih plus the summer research experience should be enough for complex. that's all i can say without making any hypothetical assumptions.
 
warm and fuzzy? nah, i feel like a badass when i see my name on pubmed...just kidding. :D
 
psyuk said:
hmm...i don't get it.

an md/phd applicant has done one year of lab work at nih, a research powerhouse, and he/she can't even contribute one figure to the paper submitted for publication?

anyhow, best of luck to you complex.

May I add the issue that authorship is a highly charged subject and it could become completely politicized.
For 1), not all PIs are fair,
and 2), even if they are, not everyone thinks that you deserve to get authorship for just generating a single figure for a paper. Some PIs think that it's more the question of intellectual input rather than how many figures you put in.

I know a lot of labs where you only get acknowledgement for generating a couple of figures or so. And I think that's kind of fair; generating a single figure for one paper might not be very hard.

You may disagree with that but publication authorships are a big bad of worms. There are people in one side of the spectrum who get authorship for just providingor generating a cell line or doing a retroviral infection and then there are a lot of RAs that don't get their name put on a paper despite putting in a lot of input just cause they don't have PhDs. Then there are PIs like mine who refuse to publish anything unless it's novel enough that it would get the paper into one of the top tier journals like Science, Nature, PNAS, cell, etc....

Any way, in short not having a publication is no indication of not having input. So I agree with everyone that it's how well you know your research, how much and what you learned from it, and whether you can figure out or explain want was unsuccessful in your research if that is the case.
 
i thank everyone for their candid input...i would like to apologize for appearing to be vague...it was not my intention
 
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