How much harder is it.....

[Yoyomama88]

for a D.O. to match into a Neurosurgery residency than an M.D? I realize that D.O.'s get dibs on the D.O. residencies and are at a disadvantage for M.D. residencies. Is thinking residency options will be easier with an M.D. versus a D.O. a valid statement to make?

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[thethom]

Yes, options are easier with an MD, however remember that allopathic residency is an option for you, but osteopathic residency is NOT available to MDs...not quite right IMO.

..and there are several DO neurosurgery residency programs.

-Dr. T.

 

[tideleonheart]

for a D.O. to match into a Neurosurgery residency than an M.D? I realize that D.O.'s get dibs on the D.O. residencies and are at a disadvantage for M.D. residencies. Is thinking residency options will be easier with an M.D. versus a D.O. a valid statement to make?

I've been looking into this for a while and talking to the DOs in allo residencies. According to them, they got a substantial number of interviews and were NOT discriminated against. Often times DOs don't even bother with allo residencies because they assume they won't make it. Don't sell yourself so short!

Of course, this is all assuming that you have solid board scores, a little research, and plenty of NS experience.

Is it easier as an MD? Sure. How much? Not as much as you'd think. Some MD residencies don't want a DO, true, but it seems like this is more the minority. From what I've found, programs want a smart and driven applicant who knows what they're getting into and who will be going strong 15 hours into a shift. Hope this helps!

Oh, and I totally agree - DO NS residencies should allow MDs too. It's stupid.... I hope the line between DO and MD blurs even more in the future. Sometimes we DOs have an unnecessary stick named up our butt.

 

[Yoyomama88]

Is it easier as an MD? Sure. How much? Not as much as you'd think.

Do you know of any DO neurosurgeons I could speak with? I'm a pre-med so I have to make a choice between DO and MD. I just remember reading some statistics on here that there was only 1 DO neurosurgeon in all of the allopathic residencies from 2004. That is scary.

 

[Dissected]

Do you know of any DO neurosurgeons I could speak with? I'm a pre-med so I have to make a choice between DO and MD. I just remember reading some statistics on here that there was only 1 DO neurosurgeon in all of the allopathic residencies from 2004. That is scary.

Are you completely and totally set on neurosurgery? Do you know for sure you can make the cut? That seems like a loft way to set the standard to choose from MD and DO. For that matter, do you want to be a physician or just a neurosurgeon?

 

[Yoyomama88]

I am fairly confident I can make the cut. I am not set on neurosurgery, but I want the option left open to me.

 

[tideleonheart]

I am fairly confident I can make the cut. I am not set on neurosurgery, but I want the option left open to me.

Just go to a residency's website, look at the list of current residents, and then e-mail them or the program's office manager.

If I were you, I'd pick DO vs. MD based on what you really want to do. Then, in a few years, pick your residency on what you really want to do. If you're smart enough and work hard enough, you can make it going either way.

Which way is "easier?" Considering DOs ability to do osteo residency, I'll bet no one REALLY knows... I suspect it's about the same chance either way.

 

[mcwmark]

I'll have to disagree with the above poster-- it is very difficult, if not impossible at this point for a DO to get into an allopathic neurosurgery residency.

There are only currently 3 DO residents in allopathic neurosurgery residency at this point in time, out about 1000 residents.

And as of the application cycle last year, there were a number of MD candidates, well qualified that did not match, and a lot of candidates that looked good on paper (research, board scores >230).

(There are also a number of other issues, including training quality at the smaller DO training programs, exclusion from the AANS and CNS, inability to get ABNS board certified, etc...that one has to consider)

 

[tideleonheart]

Yeah, I only speak from my own experience in talking with different people. I think one of the reasons you don't see many DOs in Allo residencies is because of the risk of attempting the MD match. Let me explain: In order to even take part in the MD match, you have to quit the DO match. To contrast, if you take part in the MD match, even if you don't match anything, you have no options in the DO world. They force you to put all your eggs in 1 basket.

If a person is dead set on NS, most DOs aspiring to NS would rather not take the risk.

My main reason for not saying that it's near impossible to match is because of the quantity of interviews that my DO collegues get. Why would a program interview a candidate that they know they won't take?

 

[DOinMS]

I'll have to disagree with the above poster-- it is very difficult, if not impossible at this point for a DO to get into an allopathic neurosurgery residency.

There are only currently 3 DO residents in allopathic neurosurgery residency at this point in time, out about 1000 residents.

And as of the application cycle last year, there were a number of MD candidates, well qualified that did not match, and a lot of candidates that looked good on paper (research, board scores >230).

(There are also a number of other issues, including training quality at the smaller DO training programs, exclusion from the AANS and CNS, inability to get ABNS board certified, etc...that one has to consider)

I will agree that it is difficult. You seem to imply than no DO can get certified by the ABNS. The ABNS website states, "The Primary Examination is open to all residents in ACGME-accredited neurosurgical training programs and to neurosurgeons who have successfully completed such training." DOs that train in AOA residencies are not eligible for ABNS certification, but those in ACGME programs are eligible.

 

[DOinMS]

If a person is dead set on NS, most DOs aspiring to NS would rather not take the risk.

Bingo. I think it has little to do with competitive numbers, but more to do with people not willing to gamble an entire year of their life away and being forced into a transitional program.

 

[Terpskins99]

I'll have to disagree with the above poster-- it is very difficult, if not impossible at this point for a DO to get into an allopathic neurosurgery residency.

Difficult, yes. Impossible, no. Every year a handful of DO's make it into allo neurosurgery (including one from my graduating class at KCUMB).

When I was on general surgery rotation, the chief resident at the time told me that a lot of what you hear about competitiveness and difficulty getting into a specialty... is somewhat worthless. The bottom line is, it doesn't matter. All that matters is how good of a candidate YOU are. If a dozen people from your school makes it into neurosurgery, that doesn't mean bupkis if you aren't one of them. Likewise, if no one from your school has ever matched neurosurgery, that doesn't mean you won't be able to either.

Btw, that chief resident (a DO) is now a trauma fellow at Johns Hopkins.

 

[mcwmark]

I will agree that it is difficult. You seem to imply than no DO can get certified by the ABNS. The ABNS website states, "The Primary Examination is open to all residents in ACGME-accredited neurosurgical training programs and to neurosurgeons who have successfully completed such training." DOs that train in AOA residencies are not eligible for ABNS certification, but those in ACGME programs are eligible.

Hi, you are correct there, but I was mentioning some of the possible "disadvantages" of a DO going to a DO neurosurgery training program. (The three current DO residents in a ABNS residency can go through the ABNS board certification pathway).

Please understand that I am in no way bashing anything DO, but given the current climate of "organized neurosurgery", (the AANS and CNS), there are still distinct disadvantages of a DO in neurosurgery -- which addresses the original poster's question, that "residency options will be easier with a M.D."

 

[tideleonheart]

Yeah, I only speak from my own experience in talking with different people. I think one of the reasons you don't see many DOs in Allo residencies is because of the risk of attempting the MD match. Let me explain: In order to even take part in the MD match, you have to quit the DO match. To contrast, if you take part in the MD match, even if you don't match anything, you have no options in the DO world. They force you to put all your eggs in 1 basket.

If a person is dead set on NS, most DOs aspiring to NS would rather not take the risk.

My main reason for not saying that it's near impossible to match is because of the quantity of interviews that my DO collegues get. Why would a program interview a candidate that they know they won't take?

Thanks to someone who sent me a PM, I need to clarify this a bit.

You can technically take part in both matches. The only time you get "yanked" from the MD match is if you actually match DO.

So, if you wanted to, you could rank your top 1-2 DO programs ONLY, then rank a bunch for MD. That would give a little more of a safety net. You can actually take part in the DO match. If none of your programs accept you, you will then go on to the MD match. Hope this helps!

 

[goingindebt]

(There are also a number of other issues, including training quality at the smaller DO training programs, exclusion from the AANS and CNS, inability to get ABNS board certified, etc...that one has to consider)[/QUOTE]

I have to disagree with this statement. DO's have their own board certification (BC) for neurosurgeons, the ACOS. So why would you need to be BC from the AANS unless you just have an inferiority complex. I guess you would need it if you choose to be an attending at an MD residency program. but i have seen a few DO's at MD programs that were not AANS BC.

 

[mcwmark]

My statement reads "inability to get ABNS board certified"

There is nothing to disagree with.

I know about the separate board certification for AOA neurosurgery. However, once you get out in the real world, you will see there is a lot of prejudice against having "board certification" by a group that oversees so many different specialties, "general surgery, neurologic surgery, plastic and reconstructive surgery, cardiothoracic surgery, urological surgery, general vascular surgery, surgical critical care, or such other surgical specialty that may be assigned to this Board by the AOA Board of Trustees"

and by their own admission, they are still in the process of refining what exams and certification is actually needed to pass and get "board certified".

Translated: most neurosurgeons who are ABNS board certified do not feel that this is rigorous enough to merit "real" board certification.

Regardless of what you or I may think, this is the feeling of many neurosurgeons out there. While I believe increasing the supply of neurosurgeons out there is a good thing to keep adequate neurosurgery coverage sustainable, others do not (and some feel that the very rapid growth of AOA neurosurgery residency spots, in comparison to the slow growth of ABNS neurosurgery spots is detrimental to the field of neurosurgery). Again, not my opinion, but this is what you're up against.

This was a topic of conversation and a presentation at the AANS meeting this year.

 

[DOinMS]

Hi, you are correct there, but I was mentioning some of the possible "disadvantages" of a DO going to a DO neurosurgery training program. (The three current DO residents in a ABNS residency can go through the ABNS board certification pathway).

I figured that was what you meant. I was just making a point of clarification.

I know about the separate board certification for AOA neurosurgery. However, once you get out in the real world, you will see there is a lot of prejudice against having "board certification" by a group that oversees so many different specialties, "general surgery, neurologic surgery, plastic and reconstructive surgery, cardiothoracic surgery, urological surgery, general vascular surgery, surgical critical care, or such other surgical specialty that may be assigned to this Board by the AOA Board of Trustees" and by their own admission, they are still in the process of refining what exams and certification is actually needed to pass and get "board certified".

Translated: most neurosurgeons who are ABNS board certified do not feel that this is rigorous enough to merit "real" board certification.

Regardless of what you or I may think, this is the feeling of many neurosurgeons out there. While I believe increasing the supply of neurosurgeons out there is a good thing to keep adequate neurosurgery coverage sustainable, others do not (and some feel that the very rapid growth of AOA neurosurgery residency spots, in comparison to the slow growth of ABNS neurosurgery spots is detrimental to the field of neurosurgery). Again, not my opinion, but this is what you're up against.

This was a topic of conversation and a presentation at the AANS meeting this year.

You're just telling the truth. I'm not going to disagree with you.

 

[SteelCity]

Thanks to someone who sent me a PM, I need to clarify this a bit.

You can technically take part in both matches. The only time you get "yanked" from the MD match is if you actually match DO.

So, if you wanted to, you could rank your top 1-2 DO programs ONLY, then rank a bunch for MD. That would give a little more of a safety net. You can actually take part in the DO match. If none of your programs accept you, you will then go on to the MD match. Hope this helps!

The DO match is before the MD match so although you can participate in both matches, you will get yanked from the allo match if you match DO. That is probably why there are not many DO's in allo neuro programs because they wouldn't want to risk not participating in the osteo match and having the possibility of getting snubbed in the MD match.

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

While I believe increasing the supply of neurosurgeons out there is a good thing to keep adequate neurosurgery coverage sustainable, others do not (and some feel that the very rapid growth of AOA neurosurgery residency spots, in comparison to the slow growth of ABNS neurosurgery spots is detrimental to the field of neurosurgery). Again, not my opinion, but this is what you're up against.

This was a topic of conversation and a presentation at the AANS meeting this year.

What is this rapid growth of AOA neurosurg spots you speak of? there is about 15 spots a year, and the last program started a couple years ago and has potential to be one of the best.

 

[JackADeli]

What is this rapid growth of AOA neurosurg spots you speak of?...

I admit I am not in the "know" on this, but I have not heard of the training in neurosurgery rapidly expanding either...