How much does a FM doctor make in Midwest

[RangerBob]

Holy crap you are an administrator's wet dream. If your willingness to work for peanuts didn't affect my own income potential as well I would just laugh in disdain and move on with my day but since it does, I hate you lol. If enough of my "colleagues" were just like you, happy to drive used Hondas and live in cramped condos while admins pocket the difference then that would condemn me to a similar fate and destroy everything I've worked for all these years. Disgusting. I'm just happy you do want to work in an area that is already suffering from low pay, versus taking that chump mentality to high salary areas and depressing them there, as well.

A bit harsh. I admire the poster's mindset. I see nothing disgusting about wanting a live a simpler life surrounded by the people you love and opportunities you desire. People all find happiness in different places and with different situations.

I do not understand why people are so entrenched in their beliefs about where to live. Much of the Midwest doesn't have as much nightlife as NYC, or the cuisine. So what? And NYC doesn't have the peace and solitude of the Mountain west. None of which have the fresh ocean air and warm climate of coastal CA. Which itself isn't as affordable as Iowa. But Iowa people, while very friendly, still aren't quite as friendly as Minnesotans. Who are themselves honorary Canadians. We could literally go on and on. There is no way to win. We can find a guy who thinks Siberia is the only place worth living, and another who says the Sahara is where it's at.

In the end, we all die. We get only so many years that we may as well do what we want, live where we want, with who we want. And respect the opinions of others who decide to live differently than us.

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[Postictal Raiden]

Its possible that the specific area that poster is from has good schools.

My state is usually 49/50 (thank you Mississippi) but the school district where I grew up (and live now) is top notch.

Exactly. AZ is ranked 49. BASIS schools (BASIS high school in Scottsdale) are among top public schools in the country.

 

[Modstopizdy]

A bit harsh. I admire the poster's mindset. I see nothing disgusting about wanting a live a simpler life surrounded by the people you love and opportunities you desire. People all find happiness in different places and with different situations.

I do not understand why people are so entrenched in their beliefs about where to live. Much of the Midwest doesn't have as much nightlife as NYC, or the cuisine. So what? And NYC doesn't have the peace and solitude of the Mountain west. None of which have the fresh ocean air and warm climate of coastal CA. Which itself isn't as affordable as Iowa. But Iowa people, while very friendly, still aren't quite as friendly as Minnesotans. Who are themselves honorary Canadians. We could literally go on and on. There is no way to win. We can find a guy who thinks Siberia is the only place worth living, and another who says the Sahara is where it's at.

In the end, we all die. We get only so many years that we may as well do what we want, live where we want, with who we want. And respect the opinions of others who decide to live differently than us.

You missed the point of my post entirely. I have absolutely nothing against the guy's desire to live in a certain geographical area over another. What I took issue with is his willingness to accept pennies on the dollar for his work in order to do so, as that directly affects the entire profession and hence myself. The more suckers there are out there happy to work for a fraction of what they bring in, the lower salaries for all of us will be.

This is like a struggle for territory: if some members of your army refuse to hold the line and start surrendering their positions, that weakens the entire strategic situation for everyone else as well. Maybe that dude is happy to live in crappy condos and drive cheap cars but if I wanted to live a lower middle-class life I wouldn't have burned a decade of my life for med school and residency. People with a mentality like that guy are basically threats to my investment/future and thus piss me off lol.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

You missed the point of my post entirely. I have absolutely nothing against the guy's desire to live in a certain geographical area over another. What I took issue with is his willingness to accept pennies on the dollar for his work in order to do so, as that directly affects the entire profession and hence myself. The more suckers there are out there happy to work for a fraction of what they bring in, the lower salaries for all of us will be.

This is like a struggle for territory: if some members of your army refuse to hold the line and start surrendering their positions, that weakens the entire strategic situation for everyone else as well. Maybe that dude is happy to live in crappy condos and drive cheap cars but if I wanted to live a lower middle-class life I wouldn't have burned a decade of my life for med school and residency. People with a mentality like that guy are basically threats to my investment/future and thus piss me off lol.

You have it all wrong. Physicians who flock to New York City or California create labor shortages and higher physician salaries in the Midwest and South. You ought to wish everyone of them a "Bon Voyage".

 

[deleted480308]

You missed the point of my post entirely. I have absolutely nothing against the guy's desire to live in a certain geographical area over another. What I took issue with is his willingness to accept pennies on the dollar for his work in order to do so, as that directly affects the entire profession and hence myself. The more suckers there are out there happy to work for a fraction of what they bring in, the lower salaries for all of us will be.

This is like a struggle for territory: if some members of your army refuse to hold the line and start surrendering their positions, that weakens the entire strategic situation for everyone else as well. Maybe that dude is happy to live in crappy condos and drive cheap cars but if I wanted to live a lower middle-class life I wouldn't have burned a decade of my life for med school and residency. People with a mentality like that guy are basically threats to my investment/future and thus piss me off lol.

They are only a threat if you also want their geography. They clearly want it more than you do

 

[Mass Effect]

My entire extended family and my wifes entire family live in NYC. Period, end of story. Im consistently shocked at the freedom yall have to just live wherever the f you want.

And? Just because your "entire extended family" (who moves for extended family?) and your wife's entire family live some place doesn't mean you have to be their neighbor? There are about a dozen other places within a few hour's drive to NYC or a quick train ride to NYC on weekends, if you're needed for family emergencies, or for holidays. It's not about freedom. It's about making choices that make you happy. I've come to learn that where you live matters and for some of us, even family isn't a strong enough pull to make us live some place we don't like. You only live once and life is short so make it count. Live where YOU want (and if you want to live where family is, then that's its thing on its own), not where you feel obligated to live.

 

[Mass Effect]

We moved 1,000 miles away from all of our (my husband & mine) extended families so I could go to medical school. Also the location of our hometowns, where decades of memories were made...we don't regret it one bit, and we won't be going back. Sometimes the best thing you can for yourself is leave.

This. I moved 1500 miles away for undergrad. Best decision I ever made. I was homesick at first and I left with the intention of returning 4 years later. Never did. I visit often and love my parents and family, but can't imagine ever living in that (big metro) city again.

 

[Newyawk]

And? Just because your "entire extended family" (who moves for extended family?) and your wife's entire family live some place doesn't mean you have to be their neighbor? There are about a dozen other places within a few hour's drive to NYC or a quick train ride to NYC on weekends, if you're needed for family emergencies, or for holidays. It's not about freedom. It's about making choices that make you happy. I've come to learn that where you live matters and for some of us, even family isn't a strong enough pull to make us live some place we don't like. You only live once and life is short so make it count. Live where YOU want (and if you want to live where family is, then that's its thing on its own), not where you feel obligated to live.

Because a community matters. Because I want my parents to see their grandchildren and to be involved in their lives. We clearly have different upbringings, and thats OK.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Because a community matters. Because I want my parents to see their grandchildren and to be involved in their lives. We clearly have different upbringings, and thats OK.

And? Just because your "entire extended family" (who moves for extended family?) and your wife's entire family live some place doesn't mean you have to be their neighbor? There are about a dozen other places within a few hour's drive to NYC or a quick train ride to NYC on weekends, if you're needed for family emergencies, or for holidays. It's not about freedom. It's about making choices that make you happy. I've come to learn that where you live matters and for some of us, even family isn't a strong enough pull to make us live some place we don't like. You only live once and life is short so make it count. Live where YOU want (and if you want to live where family is, then that's its thing on its own), not where you feel obligated to live.

That bold part is important. If you want to live near family, that's great Do so (I did).

But if you don't want to and yet feel obligated to, that's not as great.

 

[Mass Effect]

Because a community matters. Because I want my parents to see their grandchildren and to be involved in their lives. We clearly have different upbringings, and thats OK.

So then you want to live there? My response was because you specifically stated: "Im consistently shocked at the freedom yall have to just live wherever the f you want."

You have that freedom too and you're living where you want. No reason to be shocked.

 

[DO2015CA]

I agree. There are certainly nice places. I have family outside of Dallas and it's nice, but some aspects of the culture seems to have adversely affected their children in terms of poor self-image and forced "otherness". They've tried to form a community there to insulate a bit, but that's never what I've wanted to do, it's not how I grew up, and it's not really how I want my kids to.

This is not unique to the South. I wouldn't live in Sacramento either.

woah I take offense. Lol jk. I prefer norcal to the rest of the state

 

[medstud56]

Holy crap you are an administrator's wet dream. If your willingness to work for peanuts didn't affect my own income potential as well I would just laugh in disdain and move on with my day but since it does, I hate you lol. If enough of my "colleagues" were just like you, happy to drive used Hondas and live in cramped condos while admins pocket the difference then that would condemn me to a similar fate and destroy everything I've worked for all these years. Disgusting. I'm just happy you do want to work in an area that is already suffering from low pay, versus taking that chump mentality to high salary areas and depressing them there, as well.

I never said i would work for peanuts lol
>200k is what I expect to make after an IM residency, hardly "peanuts", more if i decide to do a competitive fellowship

 

[InternistDO]

You missed the point of my post entirely. I have absolutely nothing against the guy's desire to live in a certain geographical area over another. What I took issue with is his willingness to accept pennies on the dollar for his work in order to do so, as that directly affects the entire profession and hence myself. The more suckers there are out there happy to work for a fraction of what they bring in, the lower salaries for all of us will be.

This is like a struggle for territory: if some members of your army refuse to hold the line and start surrendering their positions, that weakens the entire strategic situation for everyone else as well. Maybe that dude is happy to live in crappy condos and drive cheap cars but if I wanted to live a lower middle-class life I wouldn't have burned a decade of my life for med school and residency. People with a mentality like that guy are basically threats to my investment/future and thus piss me off lol.

You're saying that the concept of a free labour market pisses you off?

 

[fldoctorgirl]

I am falling in love with the cheap beautiful homes in Houston, TX.

Bevington - Alden Woods 70s by Taylor Morrison | Zillow

For sale: $452,990. As you walk in to the Bevington floor plan you will have your formal dining and formal living/opt. study flanking the two story foyer. The two story family room with optional corner fireplace is open the large island kitchen. The family and breakfast both have views to the...

www.zillow.com

*cries in South Florida townhome for this price*

 

[sw99]

People with a mentality like that guy are basically threats to my investment/future and thus piss me off lol.

You have an entitled attitude. This will get you far.

Js

 

[sw99]

I never said i would work for peanuts lol
>200k is what I expect to make after an IM residency, hardly "peanuts", more if i decide to do a competitive fellowship.

Any fellowship will get you farther than not doing a fellowhip, btw--more training begets more money. It's only logical.

 

[sw99]

Sorry if I'm coming off as egotistical but some of the attitudes in this thread

 

[InternistDO]

Any fellowship will get you farther than not doing a fellowhip, btw--more training begets more money. It's only logical.

I mean, this just isn't true. What about nephrology? Infectious disease? Even rheum and endo only break even, they just give you a better schedule.

EM makes more money than most IM subspecialties and often general surgery despite only being three years. Derm makes more than all of them despite being 4.

Ortho makes more money than trauma surgery despite being 2 years shorter.

 

[Perrotfish]

Any fellowship will get you farther than not doing a fellowhip, btw--more training begets more money. It's only logical.

The vast majority of fellowship trained Pediatricians make much less than generalists, both per hour and per year.

In IM its rarer to not at least break even but I think a handful or IM fellowships are still making slightly less than generalists per hour.

 

[Splenda88]

*cries in South Florida townhome for this price*

The school districts in south FL are probably the worst in the nation...

 

[rulerkk]

Re fellowships making you more money:

Fellowship Rarely Makes Sense Financially - The White Coat Investor - Investing & Personal Finance for Doctors

 

[fldoctorgirl]

The school districts in south FL are probably the worst in the nation...

Like anywhere, depends exactly where, but yeah..

 

[sw99]

Tl;dr it’s in the title

riight

 

[sw99]

I mean, this just isn't true. What about nephrology? Infectious disease? Even rheum and endo only break even, they just give you a better schedule.

EM makes more money than most IM subspecialties and often general surgery despite only being three years. Derm makes more than all of them despite being 4.

Ortho makes more money than trauma surgery despite being 2 years shorter.

Yeah

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

riight

Math is hard

 

[sw99]

Math is hard

Well, actually derm is #1 in terms of doctors' salaries. I can compute that; can you?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Well, actually derm is #1 in terms of doctors' salaries. I can compute that; can you?

No it isn't:

Medscape: Medscape Access

www.medscape.com

But keep trying

 

[Modstopizdy]

You have it all wrong. Physicians who flock to New York City or California create labor shortages and higher physician salaries in the Midwest and South. You ought to wish everyone of them a "Bon Voyage".

They are only a threat if you also want their geography. They clearly want it more than you do

No, I don't have it all wrong. I recognized the element you guys are referring to in my original post:

Disgusting. I'm just happy you do want to work in an area that is already suffering from low pay, versus taking that chump mentality to high salary areas and depressing them there, as well.

There are two independent facets at play here: the guy's desire to work in Socal, and the guy's willingness to work for peanuts. The first of these I am perfectly happy with because as you and I have already pointed out, this reduces the supply in more lucrative markets. However, the mentality of accepting low ball salaries "because I can just drive a Honda" is a completely separate issue and that is the one I was criticizing. While this guy is thankfully taking his FTE to a market I'm not interested in, I've heard the same mindset espoused even by people who want to work in some crappy third tier midwestern town. The more prevalent this kind of thinking becomes the easier corporate medicine will have it to make all of us work for a fraction of what we're worth.

 

[hallowmann]

woah I take offense. Lol jk. I prefer norcal to the rest of the state

Haha, I'm sure it's nice for most people.

My brief time in San Jose was honestly amazing. Less busy than SF or LA, restaurants, nice weather, forests right there. This was over a decade ago, so it was slightly less busy and expensive than it is now. We might end up there. We have family in Monterey, which felt a little off to me, and lots of friends in the Bay, so being up there might be nice. Inland Empire is still much cheaper though.

 

[RangerBob]

Haha, I'm sure it's nice for most people.

My brief time in San Jose was honestly amazing. Less busy than SF or LA, restaurants, nice weather, forests right there. This was over a decade ago, so it was slightly less busy and expensive than it is now. We might end up there. We have family in Monterey, which felt a little off to me, and lots of friends in the Bay, so being up there might be nice. Inland Empire is still much cheaper though.

If you have family in Monterey and friends in the Bay Area, Santa Cruz and the surrounding area is really nice. It’s pretty crowded now, but in my opinion still far more pleasant than the Bay Area.

I had family that lived there when I was growing up-back when no one would consider Santa Cruz part of the greater Bay Area. Such a great area.

South facing beach, mountains, coastal redwoods, waterfalls/mountain streams, great food. Relatively short drive to San Jose museums/restaurants, as well as Monterey Bay Aquarium. Literally what more could you want? (Other than a reasonably priced home...)

 

[medstud56]

No, I don't have it all wrong. I recognized the element you guys are referring to in my original post:



There are two independent facets at play here: the guy's desire to work in Socal, and the guy's willingness to work for peanuts. The first of these I am perfectly happy with because as you and I have already pointed out, this reduces the supply in more lucrative markets. However, the mentality of accepting low ball salaries "because I can just drive a Honda" is a completely separate issue and that is the one I was criticizing. While this guy is thankfully taking his FTE to a market I'm not interested in, I've heard the same mindset espoused even by people who want to work in some crappy third tier midwestern town. The more prevalent this kind of thinking becomes the easier corporate medicine will have it to make all of us work for a fraction of what we're worth.

I don't know how much you think you are worth lol but its far less than what your entitled attitude believes you to think.
I think a starting salary of 220-240k as a generalist in an area where I can enjoy myself is a great deal. Sure, I won't be seeing that salary fully until I pay off the boatload of loans I have... but you realize that salary is 4x the national average right??

 

[smh343]

When people say salaries are higher in the midwest, are they talking about only rural areas, or does this include cities?

 

[Splenda88]

When people say salaries are higher in the midwest, are they talking about only rural areas, or does this include cities?

Both rural and urban, but rural will be higher within the midwest.

 

[Modstopizdy]

Both rural and urban, but rural will be higher within the midwest.

Why are you getting job offers in both IM and FM?

 

[ciestar]

Why are you getting job offers in both IM and FM?

There is a ton of crossover.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

There is a ton of crossover.

Yep. I'm FM, my wife is IM. Our contracts and job offers were identical at our current jobs.

 

[Splenda88]

How is the hospitalist job market in the Houston suburbs?

 

[Dryad8212]

Right now I live perfectly comfortable on a 60k salary with a wife and two kids. I also live in a major metropolitan area in the West.

On a 200k salary (140k take home after taxes and health insurance copay), this leaves me 80k. This would allow me to knockoff the debt that I have in 7-8 years (and my debt is higher than most people on this forum).

But 200k, although great, tells me you are not motivated enough to reach financial independence. People in my region make this working 4 days a week as a FM doc and seeing no more than 20 pts a day.

Point is, be content. We make solid incomes. But if you have debt, you should do better.

Why don't you do PSLF sicne your loans are in the 500-600k range ?

 

[DO2015CA]

Why don't you do PSLF sicne your loans are in the 500-600k range ?

You should not depend on this. It’s hard to get approved and is likely to be cut

 

[jambro]

You should not depend on this. It’s hard to get approved and is likely to be cut

This has no basis in reality. Yes, if you don't follow the rules of the program you're not going to get forgiveness (DUH!) but PSLF option is written as a part of the loans. Just like your interest rate and anything else. The government can't just unilaterally change the terms of your agreement with them; they breach the contract, you breach yours.

For some reason I never see people claiming that the government is going to retroactively change interest rates on federal loans or anything else like that when that is the exact same thing as getting rid of the PSLF option for current borrowers.

 

[efle]

This has no basis in reality. Yes, if you don't follow the rules of the program you're not going to get forgiveness (DUH!) but PSLF option is written as a part of the loans. Just like your interest rate and anything else. The government can't just unilaterally change the terms of your agreement with them; they breach the contract, you breach yours.

For some reason I never see people claiming that the government is going to retroactively change interest rates on federal loans or anything else like that when that is the exact same thing as getting rid of the PSLF option for current borrowers.

Doesnt rejecting the vast majority of applicants at the time they try to make use of the benefits kinda count the same though? It's more like gov acting as a health insurance company and trying to deny as much coverage as possible

 

[jambro]

Doesnt rejecting the vast majority of applicants at the time they try to make use of the benefits kinda count the same though? It's more like gov acting as a health insurance company and trying to deny as much coverage as possible

No, because if you look at the people rejected almost all of them (probably all of them actually) didn't qualify for the program in the first place. Most of these people did not make 120 qualifying payments, or had the wrong employer, or had the wrong type of loan. I'm not saying that you shouldnt be careful and certify everything every year (you should), or that the program is not confusing, but more so that you should not be afraid of a program that rejects people who do not follow the rules of the program.

It's like me saying that you shouldn't try and be a doctor because 100% of people who didn't pass step 1 couldn't become doctors. duh, thats part of the rules!

 

[Cornfed101]

Doesnt rejecting the vast majority of applicants at the time they try to make use of the benefits kinda count the same though? It's more like gov acting as a health insurance company and trying to deny as much coverage as possible

Most didn’t qualify because only direct loans qualify for PSLF and most loans 10+ years ago weren’t direct. The rates will be much higher and Congress will likely have to change things because the rate of forgiveness is going to go up a lot

Why the PSLF Success Rate Will Hit Over 50% by 2024

Only 864 people out of over 73,000 have been approved for PSLF through mid 2019. Here's why the PSLF success rate will exponentially explode.

www.studentloanplanner.com

 

[efle]

If the USMLEs had a 1.2% pass rate I definitely wouldn't have gone to med school! But that's interesting I didn't realize it was because tens of thousands of people were applying with the wrong loan type