How much diversity is there in General Ophthalmology? What about its specialties?

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gregoryhouse

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I am interested in Ophthalmology but from the limited experience I've seen it seems like diversity is really lacking in General Ophthalmology. I expected cataracts, glaucoma, and retinopathy to be the most common things but I also hoped there would be more cases of infections, systemic diseases (uveitis), and neurology involved.

I'm just wondering if there is more diversity possible at larger institutions or within the subspecialties. Lately I've been leaning towards oculoplastics just based on the fact it seems to have the most diversity in the procedures that they do. Neuro-ophthalmology also seems interesting but I'm not sure how involved they are in the actual neurology problems invoved with their patients.

Any insight would be very appreciated. Also if anyone can break down the typical day of each specialty that would be really great.

I have been feeling torn about pulling the trigger on applying for ophthalmology for residency and I feel like I am running out of time. I really want to figure this out before March so I can plan my aways appropriately. I know ultimately the best way to figure it out would be to shadow more but my school doesn't have an ophtho dept. and I don't want to take a year off to figure this out. There are many things I prefer about ophthalmology but I almost feel like ENT would be better for me as it has more diversity. But I would love to hear insight from people actually in the field to help guide me.

Thank you.

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I am interested in Ophthalmology but from the limited experience I've seen it seems like diversity is really lacking in General Ophthalmology. I expected cataracts, glaucoma, and retinopathy to be the most common things but I also hoped there would be more cases of infections, systemic diseases (uveitis), and neurology involved.

I'm just wondering if there is more diversity possible at larger institutions or within the subspecialties. Lately I've been leaning towards oculoplastics just based on the fact it seems to have the most diversity in the procedures that they do. Neuro-ophthalmology also seems interesting but I'm not sure how involved they are in the actual neurology problems invoved with their patients.

Any insight would be very appreciated. Also if anyone can break down the typical day of each specialty that would be really great.

I have been feeling torn about pulling the trigger on applying for ophthalmology for residency and I feel like I am running out of time. I really want to figure this out before March so I can plan my aways appropriately. I know ultimately the best way to figure it out would be to shadow more but my school doesn't have an ophtho dept. and I don't want to take a year off to figure this out. There are many things I prefer about ophthalmology but I almost feel like ENT would be better for me as it has more diversity. But I would love to hear insight from people actually in the field to help guide me.

Thank you.

I'm just a med student who has recently matched to ophthalmology, but I have spent 4 months or so working in clinics throughout my fourth year. I actually had very similar concerns around this time last year. I had only experienced a private clinic and had little exposure to the broader field. I personally think large institutions have a wonderful amount of diversity. I actually did a neuro-ophth rotation. I thought this was a very interesting and broad specialty that challenged me every day. I had no idea what I was going to see. One day I would see Parinaud's syndrome, the next day I would see misdiagnosed vasculitis, then I would see a 6 month old with visual neglect, a 3rd nerve palsy, and herpes zoster ophthalmicus. The bread and butter of neuro-ophthalmology is IIH and thyroid eye disease, but I think saying bread and butter in neuro-ophth is definitely a stretch. Everyday is different and interesting. The trade off is losing procedural work and pay. To counteract the lack of procedures, some people will actually practice a combination of strabismus or oculoplastics with neuro. The people attracted to these options are generally those who like diversity and procedures, which are both things you are expressing interest in. Of course, the markets for these practices will be small and niche, but they definitely exist. You could easily end up doing tubes and tonsils all day in ENT or cataracts all day in Ophthalmology. There is diversity or routine in both fields if you want it. Just my two cents. As a final thought, I also know people who practice a combination of neuro and general, which really adds diversity to the practice.
 
I'm just a med student who has recently matched to ophthalmology, but I have spent 4 months or so working in clinics throughout my fourth year. I actually had very similar concerns around this time last year. I had only experienced a private clinic and had little exposure to the broader field. I personally think large institutions have a wonderful amount of diversity. I actually did a neuro-ophth rotation. I thought this was a very interesting and broad specialty that challenged me every day. I had no idea what I was going to see. One day I would see Parinaud's syndrome, the next day I would see misdiagnosed vasculitis, then I would see a 6 month old with visual neglect, a 3rd nerve palsy, and herpes zoster ophthalmicus. The bread and butter of neuro-ophthalmology is IIH and thyroid eye disease, but I think saying bread and butter in neuro-ophth is definitely a stretch. Everyday is different and interesting. The trade off is losing procedural work and pay. To counteract the lack of procedures, some people will actually practice a combination of strabismus or oculoplastics with neuro. The people attracted to these options are generally those who like diversity and procedures, which are both things you are expressing interest in. Of course, the markets for these practices will be small and niche, but they definitely exist. You could easily end up doing tubes and tonsils all day in ENT or cataracts all day in Ophthalmology. There is diversity or routine in both fields if you want it. Just my two cents. As a final thought, I also know people who practice a combination of neuro and general, which really adds diversity to the practice.

Thanks for the response. Its good to know there is more diversity if you actively go after it. Makes me feel a lot better about my choice.
 
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This is a pretty frequently encountered concern in students interested in ophthalmology. Take a look at this list of CPT codes for ophthalmology and I'll think you'll realize that there is a tremendous variety of things to do:

http://www.sccb.state.sc.us/documents/feeschedule.pdf

I think that the problem you have to solve for yourself is are you content with the limited real estate that we deal with. Sure, we have a vast armamentarium of diagnoses and procedures, but it is only for one small (albeit very important) area of the body. How many of these diagnoses and procedures you deal with depends largely on where you practice and how aggressive you are. Go hang out at a county hospital and you will see that there is no shortage of infections, uveitis and neurologic issues in ophthalmology. Dealing with these issues tends not to reimburse very well compared to the time it takes, and so you won't see much of them in the private community.

I think a lot of people were torn between ENT and ophtho. For me it came down to a question of quality vs quantity. ENT has a huge array of procedures that they do, but I was far more interested in ocular and periocular surgery and pathology than I was of surgery and pathology of the ears, nose, and throat. Both have lot of clinic, but I found ophtho clinic more interesting. ENT is overall more surgical, but there are fields in ophtho (oculoplastics, as you mentioned) that are also very surgical. Both are great fields, you just need to figure out what kinds of problems you like dealing with more.
 
Understandable question, but let me redirect you.

What you find interesting now may not be what you find interesting when you practice. Your satisfaction and motivation on the job depends more on the colleagues you work with, the patients you interact with, your quality of life outside of medicine and mainly your own tendency to be a happy person. If you have an inquisitive mind, you can find interesting things within any specialty or subspecialty.
 
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I'd offer a different viewpoint. The diversity is somewhat lacking. Unless you're going to practice in a more rural area, you'll have to shoehorn yourself into some sort of subspecialty in order to not cut off your referrals. If you do comprehensive, your main surgery is essentially the cataract. you may do 10-30 of these in a week, and rarely anything else. clinic is mainly cataract signups and postops, with a smattering of other boring clinic visits (refractions, glaucoma suspects, blepharitis/dry eye, etc.). some people supplement with the odd bleph/ptosis and even more rarely, glaucoma surgery. if you're cornea, it's cataract with LASIK/PRK, and grafts (if you choose to do them); the need for grafts is declining as cataract surgery improves. if you do glaucoma, it's cataract with either tubes/trabs. if you do neuro, you really won't operate, which is 95% of the fun of being an ophthalmologist. retina is a bit better -- the surgeries all start out essentially the same (remove the vitreous), but there is a lot of variation afterwards depending on whether it's RRD or TRD, or SRH, etc. retina clinic generally also gets the interesting uveitis patients. peds ophtho can do a lot - ROP, strab, cataracts, peds glaucoma, etc. plastics is even more diverse.

but if operative variety is what you crave, ophtho is not what you want. ENT will much more likely scratch that itch -- especially with the big head/neck cases. getting into a specialty within ophthalmology that offers you tremendous surgical variety is not a sure bet by any means.
 
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Depending on how much diversity you practice depends on two things: the amount of effort you put into learning during and after residency of all of the subspecialties and the area/group in which you practice.

I have coresidents who blow off trying to learn the nuances of subspecialties. Their plan? Cataract or refer out. There are others who are going to do fellowship. Their plan? Glaucoma fellowship to lower the pressure or refer out. My personal ophthalmologist (who I shadowed in a prior life) was in a busy suburban area and he did peds surgeries, cataracts, PKPs, plastics, glaucoma, and even refractive surgeries. He worked hard to keep up on the latest evidence for every procedure he offered.

Barring if you live in a city where there is a subspecialist on every other block, the choice is yours - it all depends on how much work you want to put in during residency and how much work you want to put in when you're practicing.
 
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I appreciate everyones feedback. I've spent the past few days looking into the different subspecialties in ophthalmology to see which I find the most interesting. I came across an article about neuro-ophthalmology and how many of them choose to do an additional fellowship in oculoplastics and so they can handle a lot of the surgeries that they would have referred out previously like optic nerve sheath fenestration and also keep up a pretty good surgical practice. This to me sounds ideal. One of the things that really initially drew me to ophtho was the idea of mixing medicine and surgery and it seems like neuro-ophtho gives a lot of medical diversity and oculoplastics gives a lot of surgical diversity.

Can anyone tell me how feasible this is to run a successful practice with both fellowships?
 
Neuro + plastics dual fellowship is surprisingly common. I know of quite a few attendings in the ophtho community who did just that. Neuro + peds is common as well, but not everyone can deal with screaming kids having a light shone in their eyes.

Depending on how much diversity you practice depends on two things: the amount of effort you put into learning during and after residency of all of the subspecialties and the area/group in which you practice.

I have coresidents who blow off trying to learn the nuances of subspecialties. Their plan? Cataract or refer out. There are others who are going to do fellowship. Their plan? Glaucoma fellowship to lower the pressure or refer out. My personal ophthalmologist (who I shadowed in a prior life) was in a busy suburban area and he did peds surgeries, cataracts, PKPs, plastics, glaucoma, and even refractive surgeries. He worked hard to keep up on the latest evidence for every procedure he offered.

Barring if you live in a city where there is a subspecialist on every other block, the choice is yours - it all depends on how much work you want to put in during residency and how much work you want to put in when you're practicing.

^^ THIS. It's all about how confident (and not false confidence either) you are in avoiding patient harm or lawsuits. It's also about where you train and thus clinical exposure.
 
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Hmm. While it's true that people who trained back in the day may still do a variety of procedures, it's very hard to do a truly excellent job and stay on top of the cornea, glaucoma, and cataract literature. I doubt your old mentor is doing any DSAEK or DMEK, for example. You certainly will not be competent doing corneal transplants just out of any residency program these days. I'd venture even glaucoma is a stretch.

Note that I'm not saying you technically are incapable of doing a surgery; just that it may be mediocre and you may be missing an alternative or more elegant solution to the patient's problem that a subspecialist would know.

Also, it is very hard to get into a plastics program. Neuro and plastics is a great combination, but you cannot go into residency with the expectation that you will secure one of those spots.

Not trying to dissuade you, but I had many of the same questions and this is my experience at the end of my residency.
 
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Hmm. While it's true that people who trained back in the day may still do a variety of procedures, it's very hard to do a truly excellent job and stay on top of the cornea, glaucoma, and cataract literature. I doubt your old mentor is doing any DSAEK or DMEK, for example. You certainly will not be competent doing corneal transplants just out of any residency program these days. I'd venture even glaucoma is a stretch.

Note that I'm not saying you technically are incapable of doing a surgery; just that it may be mediocre and you may be missing an alternative or more elegant solution to the patient's problem that a subspecialist would know.

Also, it is very hard to get into a plastics program. Neuro and plastics is a great combination, but you cannot go into residency with the expectation that you will secure one of those spots.

Not trying to dissuade you, but I had many of the same questions and this is my experience nearing the end of my residency.

You have brought up excellent points. OP pay attention to what @TheLesPaul says.
 
Why residents don't do fellowships escapes me. I think it is very hard these days to compete if you are a "one trick pony" (i.e. cataract surgeon only). I don't care what residency someone went to. He or she will never be able to, for example, perform a filter as well as someone who did a Glaucoma fellowship. And forget corneal transplants. I don't think I would ever hire someone without fellowship training. Residents, don't shortchange your career -- do some type of fellowship training. It makes you a lot more competitive as a job candidate imho.
 
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Why residents don't do fellowships escapes me. I think it is very hard these days to compete if you are a "one trick pony" (i.e. cataract surgeon only). I don't care what residency someone went to. He or she will never be able to, for example, perform a filter as well as someone who did a Glaucoma fellowship. And forget corneal transplants. I don't think I would ever hire someone without fellowship training. Residents, don't shortchange your career -- do some type of fellowship training. It makes you a lot more competitive as a job candidate imho.

I am in residency and actually almost the oldest person in my program due to additional degrees and research time. I feel the same as above. I don't understand why people won't do fellowship. It's 1 extra year. I understand certain financial commitments can make it hard but if you managed this long what is 1 more year? One of my attendings always says that you will never be sorry that you did more training, but may regret doing less. Of course one can make the argument that you can always go back later, but that seems to be very challenging - financially and emotionally.

I do agree that some programs offer great training in XYZ, and so you may have done such and such many procedures in a certain sub specialty. However, you will likely not be as competent as someone who did a whole fellowship in that area. In addition, with how many lawyers and lawsuits there are, it seems it's easier to defend yourself when you are an XYZ specialist and have done a specialized procedure that you have formally trained in.
 
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Let me provide another viewpoint since this thread seems fairly one-sided. In academics you have more specialists usually, so you tend to be pressured more to do a fellowship as a resident. You have to actually ask comprehensive docs for their viewpoint to hear both sides of the story. Here's why comprehensive is still a great choice. I'll breakdown each fellowship option. The good thing about ophtho is that it has many fellowship options, but the bad thing is most of them are not worth doing. So to sum up what I'm going to post below, retina and plastics are the only fellowships worth doing since they add a lot to your residency training, job market, and future services you can offer your practice. The rest of the fellowships don't and aren't worth doing, IMO. The problem with retina+plastics is that you cannot do cataract surgery and general ophtho due to referral patterns, thus those are only viable options if you like either more individually than comprehensive. I'll break down each fellowship now:

Retina - definitely worth doing, but then no comprehensive in practice

Plastics - definitely worth doing, but then no comprehensive in practice

Uveitis - waste. Doesn't add anything surgically. Ppl only do it to make themselves more competitive for another fellowship or IMGs trying to get into residency. Doesn't help in prvt practice job market or future income.

Neuro - waste. Doesn't add anything surgically. Can't practice neuro only in private practice and have to stick to academics. In prvt practice you'll be doing more general than neuro, and the more time you spend on neuro, the less money you'll make. Some do it to make themselves more competitive for plastics.

Peds - can do strabismus which is cool, but most ppl can't stand working with kids all day. Nothing's more intolerable than peds ophtho IMO. Also financially they make less than comprehensive. There's a reason why Bascom often has an umatched peds spot.

Onc/pathology - very rarely used in prvt practice. Probably have to work in academics. Therefore less money. Not good for prvt practice.

Cornea - supposedly adds refractive and transplants. Refractive is very cutthroat and is done by cornea and comprehensive in most areas. Refractive isn't good when economy is down. If you have a refractive factory, then you're that 1% and it paid off but you don't need a fellowship to get there. Transplants are interesting, but they are low volume in prvt practice. If you suddenly couldn't rely on cataract surgery anymore, transplants would not be a viable option to fall back on because even the most busy cornea transplant docs only do a few per month. The job market is bad, even worse than comprehensive possibly, definitely not better. It doesn't pay more than comprehensive unless you do high volume refractive, but that's extremely hard to break into and you see comprehensive docs doing it anyway. Cornea specialists will try to argue only they should be doing refractive surgery (not because of the surgery is hard but for the preop + postop care). If you go to one of these refractive factories run by a cornea specialist, they have optometrists doing all the pre and postop care anyway. So that argument is a bunch of garbage. Also, if you look at the average surgical numbers for cornea fellowships, they don't even do that much refractive. They spend most of the year learning transplants. So, in the end, doesn't seem that worth it and there's a reason there are always dozens of cornea spots unmatched each year.

Glaucoma - has a better job market. Does add glaucoma surgery. Some comprehensive docs do some glaucoma surgery, but it usually is express shunts and maybe trabs. Glaucoma specialists will argue comps often do the wrong surgery or XYZ was the better option, but if you actually look at the studies, often the research doesn't say which is better and that specialist's opinion is anecdotal and you'll hear another glaucoma specialist say the opposite. However, you need to look beyond just doing the glaucoma surgery. Even though it's cool, you're going to spend 30 minutes doing the surgery on the pt and then managing the postop complications forever. Unfortunately, glaucoma surgery has the highest rate of complications of any ophtho surgery, highest rate of post-op endophthalmitis, and you can spend a lot of time (paying you little since it's postop care) addressing bleb leaks, blebitis, failed surgeries, etc. And in the end, the pt never notices improved in their QOL. Initially they are likely seeing worse due to inflammation, and will still never improve their VF and only see it progressively worsen. Also, you need to see what type of pts are referred to glaucoma specialists. Most glaucoma pts are actually managed by comprehensive docs, while the end-stage advanced glaucoma pts are the ones sent to the specialist. Personally, I don't think I'd enjoy a practice full of pts who are nearly blind and can do very little about it. It's definitely a noble thing to do, but from a financial standpoint, it doesn't pay off, and if you don't like chronic disease that you can't improve, then shouldn't do it. So better job market, doesn't pay more, and are referred a bunch of end-stage pts who you can never improve but hopefully slow down losing their last pinhole of vision. These days, glaucoma is also a lot more competitive than it was. Ten years ago you only had ppl applying who liked glaucoma, but now you have a bunch of ppl applying in addition for the better job market. You can argue you don't have to practice glaucoma longterm if you really don't like all those ultra advanced glaucoma pts, but then why did you do the fellowship to begin with?



So, in summary, retina and plastics are great fellowships since they add a lot, but if you like cataract surgery + variety more, then you should do comprehensive. There will be always be a job market for it because, like I said, doing most of the fellowships doesn't add much. If we suddenly lost cataract surgery, every specialist would suffer just as much as comprehensive except for retina and plastics. Glaucoma would survive to some extent, but they also rely on a lot of cataract surgery. There's a reason the most competitive fellowships are now #1 plastics, #2 retina, and 3# glaucoma. If you don't like managing a lot of end-stage glaucoma, then glaucoma isn't a good option either. If you actually do job searches, there are a lot of comprehensive jobs out of there. But also, many ppl only want to live in the center of big coastal cities, so the job market is tighter and a fellowship can help land a job. IMO, this is a big reason why you see 65% of residents doing fellowships now, but truthfully, only those competitive 3 I mentioned are the only fellowships that will significantly improve your job market (maybe peds too? but also most ppl couldn't do peds just for a better location). However, I see a good number who don't even practice their fellowship anymore and just do general. So they wasted that year and missed out on $150,000-200,000 attending pay, 1 year closer to making partner (and once you do you can count on your salary to double), and likely had to move to a random place for 1 year for fellowship before finally being able to settle down. And if you have a family, that's a lot to miss out on. If you truly prefer one of the top 2-3 I mentioned, are single or can land the fellowship in the same city your family wants to live in, then sure go for it. If it's not one of those top 2-3, the positives doesn't seem to outweigh the negatives.
 
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OphthoKings, everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, as a practicing ophthalmologist running a very successful anterior segment practice, I disagree. Yes, retina and plastics are great fellowships. But the other fellowships are worthwhile as well and, like Dr. Zeke pointed out, it is only 1 year extra. And doing a fellowship like glaucoma or cornea does not pigeon-hole you into only seeing disaster cornea or glaucoma patients. I do fairly high-volume and about 80-90% of my cases are cataracts. However, my referring optometrists love the fact that I can take care of patients beyond just cataracts and they refer accordingly. There is no downside for being a more well-rounded surgeon and clinician. I would hire a fellowship-trained associate over a non-fellowship-trained associate any day of the week.
 
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After looking into how competitive oculoplastics is I am really finding myself at a crossroads again. When I learned more about oculoplastics I became really interested in it and mixing it with neuro-ophtho sounded like the perfect career for me. However, I am really considering how happy I would be if I didn't match into those fellowships.

When I think about ENT, I am not really interested in the majority of it except for head/neck cases and trauma but I don't feel so passionate about those to know if I'm willing to go through an ENT residency. Oculoplastics has enough surgery for me to be happy and doing an ophthalmology residency over an ENT residency sounds much nicer to me. Would I be making a mistake going into ophthalmology if my main intent was oculoplastics?

I think retina sounds fairly interesting too and I think I could be happy in that if oculoplastics never happened but from what I've gathered retina is fairly competitive as well. I think my main wish is to have an ophthalmology practice and still see and treat emergent cases every so often. I don't think I would mind doing comprehensive if every week I had at least a few interesting medical problems and some type of interesting surgery or emergency going on.

What options would I have as a general ophthalmologist if I didn't match into oculoplastics. If I went to a program that had a lot of oculoplastics training could I theoretically still do certain oculoplastics procedures that I felt comfortable in my training to do?

I feel like oculoplastics is the choice of career for me, but I am worried about not making it and whether or not ophthalmology will be the right fit for me. On the otherside, even though ENT has the diversity I want, I just don't think I have the personality to push me through an ENT residency. I really can't tell which one is the better choice.
 
Hmm. While it's true that people who trained back in the day may still do a variety of procedures, it's very hard to do a truly excellent job and stay on top of the cornea, glaucoma, and cataract literature. I doubt your old mentor is doing any DSAEK or DMEK, for example. You certainly will not be competent doing corneal transplants just out of any residency program these days. I'd venture even glaucoma is a stretch.

Note that I'm not saying you technically are incapable of doing a surgery; just that it may be mediocre and you may be missing an alternative or more elegant solution to the patient's problem that a subspecialist would know.

Also, it is very hard to get into a plastics program. Neuro and plastics is a great combination, but you cannot go into residency with the expectation that you will secure one of those spots.

Not trying to dissuade you, but I had many of the same questions and this is my experience nearing the end of my residency.

Since it seems like you came into your ophthalmology residency with similar ideas to me, do you ever regret your choice? Feel free to pm me if you don't want to post about it publicly.
 
Since it seems like you came into your ophthalmology residency with similar ideas to me, do you ever regret your choice? Feel free to pm me if you don't want to post about it publicly.

Plastics is an extremely difficult application process and I would not count on getting in. Definitely ask yourself if you would be happy doing general ophthalmology for the rest of your life if you didn't get into plastics.

Comp doctors can and often will do blephs/ptosis repair to mix it up. These tend to be the more straightforward cases and you rarely step outside your comfort zone. These are not the "serious" or life- or vision-threatening plastics cases that you seem to have a taste for. In the end, it's really up to your personality. Are you more surgical, do you love big cases, and do you love being in the OR most days? Do ENT. Do you like having your comfortable practice with your way of doing things, and a relatively quieter life with less variety and emergencies? Do ophtho.

Re: OphthoKings, that comment seems very naive. Uveitis fellowships are hardly a waste, unless you came into residency knowing how to dose and monitor immunomodulatory and biologic therapy. And it's ludicrous so say a cornea or glaucoma fellowship is a waste. One simply does not get the experience in residency to do grafts or refractive straight out these days. Likewise with tubes/trabs. Your first 5 years will be a much steeper learning curve if you're doing it sans fellowship.
 
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If I had to do it over again, I may have applied ENT. There's more surgical diversity, there are more "big whacks", and there are more emergent situations (stat trachs, etc.). I would not be happy as a comprehensive (or even cornea/glaucoma) ophthalmologist as I felt very isolated from the rest of the medical community. As it is, I am fortunate to be doing oculoplastics, which solves all those issues (big surgeries, close interconnection with other specialties including ENT, Nsg, etc., and more serious systemic pathology (e.g., Mucor, TED, trauma, etc.)). It is an extremely difficult application process and I would not count on getting in. Definitely ask yourself if you would be happy doing general ophthalmology for the rest of your life if you didn't get into plastics.

Comp doctors can and often do blephs/ptosis repair to mix it up. These tend to be the more straightforward cases and you rarely step outside your comfort zone. These are not the "serious" or life- or vision-threatening plastics cases that you seem to have a taste for. In the end, it's really up to your personality. Are you more surgical, do you love big cases, and do you love being in the OR most days? Do ENT. Do you like having your comfortable practice with your way of doing things, and a relatively quieter life with less variety and emergencies? Do ophtho.

Re: OphthoKings, that comment seems very naive. Uveitis fellowships are hardly a waste, unless you came into residency knowing how to dose and monitor immunomodulatory and biologic therapy. And it's ludicrous so say a cornea or glaucoma fellowship is a waste. One simply does not get the experience in residency to do grafts or refractive straight out these days. Likewise with tubes/trabs. Your first 5 years will be a much steeper learning curve if you're doing it sans fellowship.

I think this is a fair argument, but I'm not so certain that the majority of ENT's have a huge amount of variety. I imagine they do have procedural variety, but I have doubts regarding their clinic. I felt like the majority of clinic time in ENT was specifically related to whether a condition can be managed surgically. From my experience, there was almost no medical management. I found this to be very different from ophthalmology which has a lot of variety within the clinic time. The majority of time in either specialty is likely to be in the clinic, so I think that ophthalmology does have an advantage here. I felt like I wouldn't fit in well with ENT's. They are definitely a surgical personality and tend to be uber confident in everything they do (obviously required when you are removing someone's jaw). At the end of a 14 hour day, I felt like what was accomplished was rather small (for Head and Neck cases). I mean, the surgeries were amazing, but if you think about it, you basically tear a person apart to remove the cancer from wherever, and they may still die after all of the trauma. This is very different from Ophthalmology where the cases truly produce a clear and measurable benefit that substantially improves life for the patient. I'm not saying that ENT doesn't benefit the patient, but it just never felt as clear cut with the head and neck cases, which is where the majority of the variety is within the field. Also, their days suck, and I've heard that it really isn't great compensation. I've heard physician's refer to head and neck surgeons as the patron saints of smoker's and boozers. I think it is very noble work, but you really need to have an extremely resilient personality to do it. The majority of ENT's are like ophthalmologists and find a specific niche which they occupy from my understanding. One guy in the practice will do sinus stuff all day, while another guy does the tubes and tonsils. I don't know how accurate that is since I've never been on a private ENT rotation, but it seemed to be what the residents were implying. Just my two cents as someone far less experienced.
 
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OphthoKings, everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, as a practicing ophthalmologist running a very successful anterior segment practice, I disagree. Yes, retina and plastics are great fellowships. But the other fellowships are worthwhile as well and, like Dr. Zeke pointed out, it is only 1 year extra. And doing a fellowship like glaucoma or cornea does not pigeon-hole you into only seeing disaster cornea or glaucoma patients. I do fairly high-volume and about 80-90% of my cases are cataracts. However, my referring optometrists love the fact that I can take care of patients beyond just cataracts and they refer accordingly. There is no downside for being a more well-rounded surgeon and clinician. I would hire a fellowship-trained associate over a non-fellowship-trained associate any day of the week.

Re: OphthoKings, that comment seems very naive. Uveitis fellowships are hardly a waste, unless you came into residency knowing how to dose and monitor immunomodulatory and biologic therapy. And it's ludicrous so say a cornea or glaucoma fellowship is a waste. One simply does not get the experience in residency to do grafts or refractive straight out these days. Likewise with tubes/trabs. Your first 5 years will be a much steeper learning curve if you're doing it sans fellowship.

My post was coming from a financial/job market standpoint only. I do not think it's ever a bad idea to do extra training for intellectual interest, but most of the ophtho fellowships are not worth doing for a financial benefit over comprehensive for the reasons I mentioned above. In response to a few of the comments:

Glaucoma/cornea - I already covered these in depth. Glaucoma does add tubes/trabs but some comprehensives also do these. Or you can do express shunts which are easier and studies don't show they're inferior to trabs despite what the glaucoma specialists tell you. It's just anecdotal...For cornea, I already said you should definitely do a fellowship to do transplants, but transplants don't help you much financially or job market-wise. You can do multiple cataract surgeries in the time you can do a transplant and thus it ends up being higher reimbursement. And transplant #s in prvt practice are very low volume and you would never be able to fall back on just doing transplants if cataracts disappeared. Go take a look at job postings, there's definitely less cornea than comprehensive. Refractive adds $$ but go look up the large refractive practices and they have both cornea and comprehensive docs working there. Like I said, the refractive industry is extremely cutthroat and you can't just break into it and make tons of $$ just because you feel like it. As a comprehensive, you can do extra workshops after residency to get refractive certification. You can do a lot as comprehensive as long as you put in the extra effort in practice to go to the workshops, stay up to date, etc. And Lightbox, you said it yourself, you practice like 90% comprehensive as most cornea and many glaucoma specialists. Intellectually yes it's a benefit to do those fellowships, but financially it's really not helping you much. Is it making up for the $200k you lost during that year of fellowship and a potential year more you could have been partner? If you retire at 65 and did comprehensive at 30, then you had 1 extra year making $200k and another extra year making $400k as partner, compared to retiring at 65 and not starting practice until 31 and one less year as partner since you were in fellowship for a year. So essentially you lost $400k ($200k from first year as associate/building your practice and another $200k that you would have made as partner for an extra year instead of the associate salary). And that's probably low balling it, since some ppl make much more than double their associate salary when they're partner.

Uveitis - while it may be intellectually stimulating to do a uveitis fellowship and learn the dosing of immunomodulatory meds, it doesn't add to your practice financially or improve your job prospects. The vast majority of ppl do uveitis before doing plastics or retina etc.
 
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Financially yes, having done fellowship definitely has helped me in terms of referrals from other providers. I also don't have to refer much out at all which is nice for my ego. If you really want to think only about the financial picture, then quit Medicine right now and spend that time in Silicon Valley creating the next business that gets bought up by Google or Facebook. Sound ludicrous? About as ludicrous as distilling down a fellowship year into "losing 200k" (which is really much less after taxes, etc) which is a relative pittance over the course of a 25 year career. Anyways, it sounds like you are convinced starting out straight from residency. Good luck with that.
 
Financially yes, having done fellowship definitely has helped me in terms of referrals from other providers. I also don't have to refer much out at all which is nice for my ego. If you really want to think only about the financial picture, then quit Medicine right now and spend that time in Silicon Valley creating the next business that gets bought up by Google or Facebook. Sound ludicrous? About as ludicrous as distilling down a fellowship year into "losing 200k" (which is really much less after taxes, etc) which is a relative pittance over the course of a 25 year career. Anyways, it sounds like you are convinced starting out straight from residency. Good luck with that.

Actually you lose more than $200k. You automatically lose $200k or whatever your associate salary is just during that fellowship year. Then you miss out on one less year of being partner. Most partners make at least double their associate salary, so if you're associate salary was $200k, then that's $400k+ you make as partner and take that difference and you're missing another $200k+ plus. So total you lost out on $400k+. Based on your last post, I think you concede this point since you're resorting to low blows and trying to make it seem like I'm evil only looking at it financially. Financially is only one way to look at it. I'm just pointing it out for other viewers to consider it.

If I had a very serious intellectual interest in cornea or glaucoma, then I would still do the fellowship anyway despite "losing money." But that just isn't the case for me. I honestly only have an intellectual interest in retina or plastics, but I don't like them better than comprehensive (cataracts + variety) so I'm doing comprehensive. I'm not going to do another random fellowship just because it "is nice for my ego" or to make it easier to get a job since I don't care about living in the center of a big coastal city. I have a family to think about too, and the only way I would consider making them likely move for another year and delay settling down for another year would be if (1) I have a special intellectual interest in the fellowship or (2) no special intellectual interest but definitely pays more longterm. My ideal specialty is retina + cataracts, but that doesn't exist, and I like comprehensive more than retina so comprehensive it is.

My goal is not only do cataract surgery. I actually want to try to be a true comprehensive doc and also practice basic specialties such as blephs/ptosis and maybe entropion/ectropion, refractive surgery, and possibly some glaucoma surgery like express shunts. I doubt I'd do medical retina because, even though I could give the treatments, I would not have the retina specialist watching over me like in residency.
 
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My post was coming from a financial/job market standpoint only. I do not think it's ever a bad idea to do extra training for intellectual interest, but most of the ophtho fellowships are not worth doing for a financial benefit over comprehensive for the reasons I mentioned above. In response to a few of the comments:

Glaucoma/cornea - I already covered these in depth. Glaucoma does add tubes/trabs but some comprehensives also do these. Or you can do express shunts which are easier and studies don't show they're inferior to trabs despite what the glaucoma specialists tell you. It's just anecdotal...For cornea, I already said you should definitely do a fellowship to do transplants, but transplants don't help you much financially or job market-wise. You can do multiple cataract surgeries in the time you can do a transplant and thus it ends up being higher reimbursement. And transplant #s in prvt practice are very low volume and you would never be able to fall back on just doing transplants if cataracts disappeared. Go take a look at job postings, there's definitely less cornea than comprehensive. Refractive adds $$ but go look up the large refractive practices and they have both cornea and comprehensive docs working there. Like I said, the refractive industry is extremely cutthroat and you can't just break into it and make tons of $$ just because you feel like it. As a comprehensive, you can do extra workshops after residency to get refractive certification. You can do a lot as comprehensive as long as you put in the extra effort in practice to go to the workshops, stay up to date, etc. And Lightbox, you said it yourself, you practice like 90% comprehensive as most cornea and many glaucoma specialists. Intellectually yes it's a benefit to do those fellowships, but financially it's really not helping you much. Is it making up for the $200k you lost during that year of fellowship and a potential year more you could have been partner? If you retire at 65 and did comprehensive at 30, then you had 1 extra year making $200k and another extra year making $400k as partner, compared to retiring at 65 and not starting practice until 31 and one less year as partner since you were in fellowship for a year. So essentially you lost $400k ($200k from first year as associate/building your practice and another $200k that you would have made as partner for an extra year instead of the associate salary). And that's probably low balling it, since some ppl make much more than double their associate salary when they're partner.

Uveitis - while it may be intellectually stimulating to do a uveitis fellowship and learn the dosing of immunomodulatory meds, it doesn't add to your practice financially or improve your job prospects. The vast majority of ppl do uveitis before doing plastics or retina etc.

What is the benefit of uveitis before plastics? I could see oncology or pathology before plastics but uveitis is not an obvious connection for me
 
What is the benefit of uveitis before plastics? I could see oncology or pathology before plastics but uveitis is not an obvious connection for me

Sorry I meant uveitis with retina. Neuro with plastics. I've talked to many fellowship trained docs who said they didn't give general enough credit when they were residents and only practice general now.
 
How competitive is neuro-ophtho? I know there seems to be a debate about whether a fellowship in it would be worth while, but if it is something I am interested in doing I am curious how hard it would be to get into. I think I could get behind neuro + comp since it will still have the medical complexities I like while also allowing a little bit of surgery.

Also can a comprehensive doctor take care of intraocular foreign bodies or is that a retina specialists job? What emergencies can a general ophthalmologist handle and how often do they see them?

I just feel so conflicted. Ocular pathology is so much more interesting than ENT pathology but the surgical diversity is there without the need for worrying about fellowship. I have to admit though I love the lifestyle ophtho affords, it just seems to trump ENT tremendously. I like surgeries and I especially like trauma but only up to a certain extent, I don't want to be stuck doing 22 hour surgeries I think I would get bored of that fairly quickly and working 80 hours a week for the next 5 years during residency sounds miserable. Oculoplastics has a lot of short procedures mixed in with some more complex stuff, its just too perfect. I feel like even if I chose ENT I would always be bitter about not trying to see if I could have made it into oculoplastics.

I just need more information about if I'd be happy as a comprehensive ophtho if that fails. I actually like cataract surgeries based on what I've seen online, they look neat and I like the simplicity of the surgery. I just don't know if after my 1000th cataract I would just get tired of it. For people planning to do comprehensive or are doing comprehensive can you tell me what you like so much about cataracts and if you ever get tired of doing it repeatedly.
 
How competitive is neuro-ophtho? I know there seems to be a debate about whether a fellowship in it would be worth while, but if it is something I am interested in doing I am curious how hard it would be to get into. I think I could get behind neuro + comp since it will still have the medical complexities I like while also allowing a little bit of surgery.

Also can a comprehensive doctor take care of intraocular foreign bodies or is that a retina specialists job? What emergencies can a general ophthalmologist handle and how often do they see them?

I just feel so conflicted. Ocular pathology is so much more interesting than ENT pathology but the surgical diversity is there without the need for worrying about fellowship. I have to admit though I love the lifestyle ophtho affords, it just seems to trump ENT tremendously. I like surgeries and I especially like trauma but only up to a certain extent, I don't want to be stuck doing 22 hour surgeries I think I would get bored of that fairly quickly and working 80 hours a week for the next 5 years during residency sounds miserable. Oculoplastics has a lot of short procedures mixed in with some more complex stuff, its just too perfect. I feel like even if I chose ENT I would always be bitter about not trying to see if I could have made it into oculoplastics.

I just need more information about if I'd be happy as a comprehensive ophtho if that fails. I actually like cataract surgeries based on what I've seen online, they look neat and I like the simplicity of the surgery. I just don't know if after my 1000th cataract I would just get tired of it. For people planning to do comprehensive or are doing comprehensive can you tell me what you like so much about cataracts and if you ever get tired of doing it repeatedly.

Neuro-ophthalmology isn't that competitive
 
Don't let what you see in an academic center skew your perspective of what a field is like. For ENT, it's more surgically demanding during residency but in private practice, your clinic flow is very similar to ophthalmology; 60-80% clinic with the rest being surgical time. Most surgeries done aren't massive cases either; they're what pays well and keeps your practice running (tubes, tonsils, etc.). For the bigger cases or more interesting cases, you may still need to do a fellowship.

I will preface that I'm a fellow, and I have not been in private practice. However, many co-residents and their parents are in private practice, and we get tons of referrals from out in the community and talk with lots of ophthalmologists in PP frequently so my experiences reflect that.

In private practice, the bulk of what you see is what pays well and keeps your practice afloat, not what is the most interesting or most weird. The patients with the latter often require time-consuming workup and/or testing that you may not have the resources for (hence being referred out). As a med student I was excited about seeing a diverse amount of pathology, but now, though it is still interesting, it also comes with a price: you're now responsible for the outcome of the patient, even if you're not sure what the diagnosis is or the best treatment for it. If you don't have the training or exposure to manage such issues, it's a hefty burden to carry. This also means that you'll have to spend more time figuring out the best course of treatment, which eats away at time to see other patients, and in the end, you may have to refer the patient out anyway.

If you're a general ophthalmologist in PP, most of the surgeries you will do is cataract surgery. However, even that can be diverse - not all cataracts are the same, and some of them require more advanced techniques to manage. Some cataract surgeons find plenty of satisfaction and relief in that. Other surgeries can be done at your discretion, but it depends on how well you were trained during residency. Some programs will let you feel comfortable doing a GDI or straightforward plastics procedures like blephs and lateral tarsal strips, some others won't really train you well at anything. In terms of medical management diversity, you can definitely get it out in the community (you never know what will show up at your doorstep, especially if you're a few hours away from a major medical center or city), but again, you may need to refer it out anyway for the reasons I described above.

If you really want diversity in medical AND surgical management, you probably have to do a fellowship. The decision to do one is a personal one, and there are pros and cons for both. I agree with the sentiment that you can never do too much training (you don't want to be experimenting and learning on your own in private practice if at all possible when you start!), but at the same time, you can never feel 100% ready for everything. Also, some people are way too burned out to do a fellowship after residency, or financially cannot do it due to their family. Fellowship can be harder than residency because you don't have ACGME protections (the abuse during fellowship is real - when you have fully trained ophthalmologists on a resident's salary without any ACGME protections, you can bet the higher ups will milk them out for everything they're worth). I know people state not to be myopic about your finances during fellowship and long-term gain, but I think these same people also don't realize that 4 years of residency is tough enough on many fronts, and your spouse may balk at the fact you're signing up for 1-2 more years of it instead of getting a job, which in turn may strain a family and possibly ruin it. In the end it's about what you would be satisfied with.

For me, I knew I wanted to do surgical retina and I enjoyed the diversity in the amount of surgery you could do. Even with that, if I really wanted to do a wide variety of surgical and medical management, I'd have to likely go to an academic center instead of being in private practice (there are a few places though where it's the perfect dream of academic center pathology with private practice business management). Many ASCs would balk at you taking a TRD to surgery, especially if the patient is sick as stink.

I think I'm starting to get off track, but believe me, there is plenty of diversity in ophthalmology, and don't let other fields fool you because what you see in academics is not reflective of what you will see out in the community day in and day out. This is true for almost all fields.
 
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How competitive is neuro-ophtho? I know there seems to be a debate about whether a fellowship in it would be worth while, but if it is something I am interested in doing I am curious how hard it would be to get into. I think I could get behind neuro + comp since it will still have the medical complexities I like while also allowing a little bit of surgery.

Also can a comprehensive doctor take care of intraocular foreign bodies or is that a retina specialists job? What emergencies can a general ophthalmologist handle and how often do they see them?

I just feel so conflicted. Ocular pathology is so much more interesting than ENT pathology but the surgical diversity is there without the need for worrying about fellowship. I have to admit though I love the lifestyle ophtho affords, it just seems to trump ENT tremendously. I like surgeries and I especially like trauma but only up to a certain extent, I don't want to be stuck doing 22 hour surgeries I think I would get bored of that fairly quickly and working 80 hours a week for the next 5 years during residency sounds miserable. Oculoplastics has a lot of short procedures mixed in with some more complex stuff, its just too perfect. I feel like even if I chose ENT I would always be bitter about not trying to see if I could have made it into oculoplastics.

I just need more information about if I'd be happy as a comprehensive ophtho if that fails. I actually like cataract surgeries based on what I've seen online, they look neat and I like the simplicity of the surgery. I just don't know if after my 1000th cataract I would just get tired of it. For people planning to do comprehensive or are doing comprehensive can you tell me what you like so much about cataracts and if you ever get tired of doing it repeatedly.

If you wanna handle true IOFBs you have to do retina, no debate. The only surgical emergencies general ophthalmologists handle are open globes, rarely the retrobulbar hemorrhage that needs a lateral canthotomy (which you could do bedside), some lid lacs (which can also be done bedside), and if you have the training, an orphan trab or tube shunt (which is extremely rare and often gets turfed to glaucoma anyway).

Maybe I'm biased but if you're looking for more surgery and pathology, you should consider retina, and if you have the masochism, an ocular oncology or uveitis fellowship with it. Retina is the major sub specialty field in ophthalmology where you get emergencies that need to be fixed quickly, and you may be operating a lot.
If you do ocular oncology on top of that, you'll be able to do things like plaque brachytherapy and retinoblastoma.
 
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If you wanna handle true IOFBs you have to do retina, no debate. The only surgical emergencies general ophthalmologists handle are open globes, rarely the retrobulbar hemorrhage that needs a lateral canthotomy (which you could do bedside), some lid lacs (which can also be done bedside), and if you have the training, an orphan trab or tube shunt (which is extremely rare and often gets turfed to glaucoma anyway).

Maybe I'm biased but if you're looking for more surgery and pathology, you should consider retina, and if you have the masochism, an ocular oncology or uveitis fellowship with it. Retina is the major sub specialty field in ophthalmology where you get emergencies that need to be fixed quickly, and you may be operating a lot.
If you do ocular oncology on top of that, you'll be able to do things like plaque brachytherapy and retinoblastoma.

It's my understanding that plaque brachytherapy requires the equipment / setup from your hospital. I know people are trained to do these procedures but are not able to do them because where they have privileges wasn't willing to fund the whole process/ equipment required. So I'm not sure how common it is even with the appropriate training unless you're in the right place. Can anyone comment on this?
 
If you wanna handle true IOFBs you have to do retina, no debate. The only surgical emergencies general ophthalmologists handle are open globes, rarely the retrobulbar hemorrhage that needs a lateral canthotomy (which you could do bedside), some lid lacs (which can also be done bedside), and if you have the training, an orphan trab or tube shunt (which is extremely rare and often gets turfed to glaucoma anyway).

Maybe I'm biased but if you're looking for more surgery and pathology, you should consider retina, and if you have the masochism, an ocular oncology or uveitis fellowship with it. Retina is the major sub specialty field in ophthalmology where you get emergencies that need to be fixed quickly, and you may be operating a lot.
If you do ocular oncology on top of that, you'll be able to do things like plaque brachytherapy and retinoblastoma.

It seems like the more I find out about what each subspecialty does I find more growing interest in ophtho as a whole. Would you think its a wise decision to go into ophtho with my main desire to do an oculoplastics fellowship but have retina in the back of my mind if it doesn't work out. I know desires can change but would ophtho be worth going into if I specifically want to do those two fields?

Retina with oncology sounds very intriguing. Do they actually surgically remove retinoblastomas or do they just treat them medically?

How competitive is retina? Similar to oculoplastics or is the statistics more favorable?

I really feel like ophtho is a better fit for me. As much as I love trauma, I also really enjoy life outside of medicine. I've heard retina is particularly more busy than regular ophtho but I still think all ophtho subspecialties give the best chance at normalcy outside of work compared to other surgical specialties. Correct me if I am wrong though.
 
I think it is funny when a med student or resident says they "want to do retina or oculoplastics." Maybe it's just me, but aren't these two fields completely different?!? Yes sure, they both are competitive matches, but really, what other traits do they share? Retina is barely surgical these days -- 90% of your time is going to be seeing patients in clinic and doing intravitreal injections. Many retinologists that I know try to avoid the OR like the black plague. The novelty has worn off for them and they just want to do what is most lucrative. This contrasts with oculoplastics where they are basically seeing pre-ops, operating, and then post-ops.
 
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It seems like the more I find out about what each subspecialty does I find more growing interest in ophtho as a whole. Would you think its a wise decision to go into ophtho with my main desire to do an oculoplastics fellowship but have retina in the back of my mind if it doesn't work out. I know desires can change but would ophtho be worth going into if I specifically want to do those two fields?

Retina with oncology sounds very intriguing. Do they actually surgically remove retinoblastomas or do they just treat them medically?

How competitive is retina? Similar to oculoplastics or is the statistics more favorable?

I really feel like ophtho is a better fit for me. As much as I love trauma, I also really enjoy life outside of medicine. I've heard retina is particularly more busy than regular ophtho but I still think all ophtho subspecialties give the best chance at normalcy outside of work compared to other surgical specialties. Correct me if I am wrong though.

I think a major point in this thread is that you should go into ophthalmology with the idea that you could tolerate or be happy being a comprehensive ophthalmologist if you didn't match to fellowship. That's not to say that you won't match to fellowship but it's important to like your specialty in general because the training and going through is not just a means to an end. Yeah residency and its lifestyle are but the subject matter in residency should be interesting to you, otherwise you will wanna rip your hair out.
 
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I think it is funny when a med student or resident says they "want to do retina or oculoplastics." Maybe it's just me, but aren't these two fields completely different?!? Yes sure, they both are competitive matches, but really, what other traits do they share? Retina is barely surgical these days -- 90% of your time is going to be seeing patients in clinic and doing intravitreal injections. Many retinologists that I know try to avoid the OR like the black plague. The novelty has worn off for them and they just want to do what is most lucrative. This contrasts with oculoplastics where they are basically seeing pre-ops, operating, and then post-ops.

I think its possible to enjoy two different areas of medicine but either way I dont really want to go into oculoplastics OR retina. I want to go into oculoplastics, however, if that doesn't happen retina seems interesting too and I dont think I would mind doing that as a career if oculoplastics didn't pan out. Give me interesting pathology and some emergencies with a relatively good lifestyle and I'm happy.
 
It seems like the more I find out about what each subspecialty does I find more growing interest in ophtho as a whole. Would you think its a wise decision to go into ophtho with my main desire to do an oculoplastics fellowship but have retina in the back of my mind if it doesn't work out. I know desires can change but would ophtho be worth going into if I specifically want to do those two fields?

Retina with oncology sounds very intriguing. Do they actually surgically remove retinoblastomas or do they just treat them medically?

How competitive is retina? Similar to oculoplastics or is the statistics more favorable?

I really feel like ophtho is a better fit for me. As much as I love trauma, I also really enjoy life outside of medicine. I've heard retina is particularly more busy than regular ophtho but I still think all ophtho subspecialties give the best chance at normalcy outside of work compared to other surgical specialties. Correct me if I am wrong though.

I'd say keep an open mind of the possibilities. When I applied for residency, I didn't state it but I had an inkling that I'd gravitate towards retina because a lot of my research and med school experience dealt with it. I also liked plastics as well but once I did my retina rotation I was sold on retina. You never know what you'll like, and what will best suit your interests.

Retina with ocular oncology requires that you actually do two separate fellowships. Ocular oncology is typically a one year fellowship, though some places make it two years. Many ocular oncologists either pursue or already have finished a retina or plastics fellowship - reason being so is that the diagnostic and surgical management of these tumors often require skills from these respective fields. For instance, choroidal cavernous hemangioma requires PDT/laser treatment, and intraocular lymphomas often need a diagnostic vitrectomy to clinch the diagnosis.

As far as competitiveness, both are fairly competitive, and it's hard to say which one is more competitive, though my opinion would be that plastics is the more competitive one simply due to the low number of spots each year. More and more retina fellowships are being created due to the increased need for vitreoretinal specialists - newer surgical technology, outcomes from research regarding surgical timings, and newer modalities of treatment are pushing this trend.

And as far as your question for retinoblastoma, the only mainstream surgical treatment offered is enucleation. Often its a combo of chemotherapy and laser/cryo - there are more impressive treatments like intrarterial chemotherapy but that's all above my paygrade.

I think its possible to enjoy two different areas of medicine but either way I dont really want to go into oculoplastics OR retina. I want to go into oculoplastics, however, if that doesn't happen retina seems interesting too and I dont think I would mind doing that as a career if oculoplastics didn't pan out. Give me interesting pathology and some emergencies with a relatively good lifestyle and I'm happy.

As a resident, you'll get plenty of pathology. In fact, you better be careful of what you wish for. Also, emergencies and good lifestyle don't go together in general in the field of medicine. As a general ophthalmologist, however, you will see plenty enough pathology and emergencies, and even as a "generalist", you're in a pretty specialized field of medicine with its own playing field of pathology. Believe me, after residency, you'll quickly get over how "fascinating" ocular emergencies are.
 
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As a resident, you'll get plenty of pathology. In fact, you better be careful of what you wish for. Also, emergencies and good lifestyle don't go together in general in the field of medicine. As a general ophthalmologist, however, you will see plenty enough pathology and emergencies, and even as a "generalist", you're in a pretty specialized field of medicine with its own playing field of pathology. Believe me, after residency, you'll quickly get over how "fascinating" ocular emergencies are.

Exactly. As comprehensive, you see a huge of variety of pathology clinically. The amount of knowledge a very experienced comprehensive doc has is amazing. The ones in my program have way more broad knowledge than the specialists here. The specialists know their area well but it seems like some of them want nothing to do with the rest of ophtho and forgot so much. A good comprehensive doc is readily using their broad knowledge on a regular basis and stay up-to-date.

Surgically as comprehensive, you'll definitely do cataract surgery and Yag capsulotomties/PIs and can also do pterygiums, blephs/ptosis, entropion/ectropion, refractive, glaucoma lasers/some surgeries (express shunts, maybe tubes/trabs), and medical retina (lasers, injections). You probably will never do all that but you can certainly do cataracts/Yags/PIs plus at least one or two of those. You can set up your practice how you want, although I wouldn't recommend medical retina unless you're literally in a rural area with no retina specialists around. Comprehensive can have a good range procedures if you put the effort in.
 
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Hmm. While it's true that people who trained back in the day may still do a variety of procedures, it's very hard to do a truly excellent job and stay on top of the cornea, glaucoma, and cataract literature. I doubt your old mentor is doing any DSAEK or DMEK, for example. You certainly will not be competent doing corneal transplants just out of any residency program these days. I'd venture even glaucoma is a stretch.

Note that I'm not saying you technically are incapable of doing a surgery; just that it may be mediocre and you may be missing an alternative or more elegant solution to the patient's problem that a subspecialist would know
.

Also, it is very hard to get into a plastics program. Neuro and plastics is a great combination, but you cannot go into residency with the expectation that you will secure one of those spots.

Not trying to dissuade you, but I had many of the same questions and this is my experience at the end of my residency.

I don't agree with this.

If you are planning on entering a huge academic institution or a multi-partner subspecialty practice I agree with you that you will need a fellowship to do more surgery than cataracts/basic laser procedures. If you're not in a huge city there's no reason you can't do your own.

I disagree that you would only do a mediocre job performing these surgeries for the rest of your career without a fellowship. PKP's are a pretty easy procedure - it's the pre/post op that is more difficult. The last 6 PKPs I have done and the attending didn't touch the patient (except for prepping the donor to save time). There's no reason I shouldn't feel confident doing these in the real world. Glaucoma surgery is also technically relatively simple - from my experience the general people are not missing any elegant steps to place a tube shunt or trab and the patients do just fine.

No matter if you do fellowship or not, there are going to be new procedures coming out on the horizon and it is up to you to adapt and learn these new techniques. Most of my cornea attendings haven't even tackled DMEK yet. Will they have more patients in his/her arsenal to learn? Perhaps, but its not impossible to build your own practice with the patient population required to learn these new procedures.
 
It seems like the more I find out about what each subspecialty does I find more growing interest in ophtho as a whole. Would you think its a wise decision to go into ophtho with my main desire to do an oculoplastics fellowship but have retina in the back of my mind if it doesn't work out. I know desires can change but would ophtho be worth going into if I specifically want to do those two fields?

Retina with oncology sounds very intriguing. Do they actually surgically remove retinoblastomas or do they just treat them medically?

How competitive is retina? Similar to oculoplastics or is the statistics more favorable?

I really feel like ophtho is a better fit for me. As much as I love trauma, I also really enjoy life outside of medicine. I've heard retina is particularly more busy than regular ophtho but I still think all ophtho subspecialties give the best chance at normalcy outside of work compared to other surgical specialties. Correct me if I am wrong though.

You know what they say about the lifestyle and life outside of medicine:

"Smart enough to go into ophtho....dumb enough to go into retina."
 
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Would really disagree about the "retina lifestyle". If your practice and ASC are set up correctly, you can add on cases easily in an ASC and do any detachments that are mac-on in the early morning before clinic, or have a partner in the OR do it. I have likely done about 100 RDs in the past year and haven't operated a single night or weekend. A pneumatic is often a reasonable option as well in the correct patient. IOFBs are very infrequent. I do maybe 2-3/year. Sometimes whoever is on call for the hospital repairs the rupture 1st and I remove the IOFB secondarily. Can also inject abx and wait if needed. Endophthalmitis is really the only thing that you need to treat immediately and most often you can tap/inject initially. If you are operating in a hospital and having to schedule cases at night/weekend and getting bumped by other emergent cases, I imagine this would suck, but this isn't what most of us deal with. You often likely won't even have trained staff available at night/weekend at a community hospital and the patient is better off being treated when you have a capable eye team available.
 
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In private practice, the bulk of what you see is what pays well and keeps your practice afloat, not what is the most interesting or most weird. The patients with the latter often require time-consuming workup and/or testing that you may not have the resources for (hence being referred out). As a med student I was excited about seeing a diverse amount of pathology, but now, though it is still interesting, it also comes with a price: you're now responsible for the outcome of the patient, even if you're not sure what the diagnosis is or the best treatment for it. If you don't have the training or exposure to manage such issues, it's a hefty burden to carry. This also means that you'll have to spend more time figuring out the best course of treatment, which eats away at time to see other patients, and in the end, you may have to refer the patient out anyway.

I think I'm starting to get off track, but believe me, there is plenty of diversity in ophthalmology, and don't let other fields fool you because what you see in academics is not reflective of what you will see out in the community day in and day out. This is true for almost all fields.

It's good that someone alluded to this and this is one of the reasons why sub specialties like neuro-oph are usually found in academic centers. The workups tend to be extensive and it's not very procedure driven. You have to do what pays the bills.
 
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It's good that someone alluded to this and this is one of the reasons why sub specialties like neuro-oph are usually found in academic centers. The workups tend to be extensive and it's not very procedure driven. You have to do what pays the bills.

Yep, sadly that little code for "extended sensorimotor exam" doesn't make up for the extra hour of lost clinic time really refining the prism RX on that longstanding CNIV palsy. ;)

I think its possible to enjoy two different areas of medicine but either way I dont really want to go into oculoplastics OR retina. I want to go into oculoplastics, however, if that doesn't happen retina seems interesting too and I dont think I would mind doing that as a career if oculoplastics didn't pan out. Give me interesting pathology and some emergencies with a relatively good lifestyle and I'm happy.

You're torn partially because you don't have enough experience in Ophthalmology to see how diverse it can be. In my resident clinic I see all sorts of neuro-ophthalmic or uveitic disease. NAION, PION, GCA, Syphilis, Sarcoid, CMV, crapload of Rheum/HLA-B27 associated stuff, more cranial nerve palsies than I can stomach, meningiomas, pituitary tumors, etc. Here's the thing you've got to realize about the doctors you may be shadowing in the private world: It's all real super interesting until you've seen it before and then it just takes up a lot of time. Right now to you diagnosing sarcoidosis based on the workup you did for someone's granulomatous anterior uveitis sounds really cool. That's because it is cool. But it's a lot of work to coordinate the care for that patient, and you won't be getting paid to take care of them as well as you're going to. So that's why some of these 'boring' comprehensive doctors you're following refer those people out.

Most everything is going to become fairly rote no matter what specialty you choose. Even when I counsel patients prior to an open globe repair it's fairly routine feeling at this point. When ENTs are doing neck dissections (God bless them), it's routine for them.

So just pick a field you find interesting. I would not want the lifestyle of an ENT. Give me a hundred of my boring cataract one week postops that tell me how thankful they are before you give me a single transphenoidal surgery.

In Ophthalmology you can realistically as a comprehensive doctor perform a lot of different procedures well. Your clinic could be as varied as you wanted. No matter what field you choose, most people kind of settle on the things they like to manage the most and that they are reimbursed decently for and just do those things. For the rest they recognize, diagnose, and refer out for treatment or start treatment and refer for continued care. Nothing is stopping you from doing strab surgeries on kids followed by a ptosis repair followed by a tube shunt followed by a pterygium before your temporal artery biopsy. You'll learn to do all of that in residency.
 
What a spirited discussion in ophtho section for once! For me, I can't imagine doing anything else but comprehensive (for the record, I did end up doing a fellowship). Incredible verity, incredible flexibility, ability to pick and choose what you want to do. Retina surgical codes just got cut >30%. Guess what? Your local retina guy won't start doing cataracts all of a sudden to compensate for this loss. I do lids, retina laser, iStents, anti-VEGF, etc. I can pick and choose, increase number of certain procedures that I like and that pay. I can learn new techniques. Picking at a complex diabetic ERM for 3 hours? No, thank you. Two hour repeat corneal transplant? Pass :). And oh, by the way, the demand for comprehensive is NOT going away anytime soon as 10,000 baby boomers are retiring every day in this country for many years to come.
 
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Yep, sadly that little code for "extended sensorimotor exam" doesn't make up for the extra hour of lost clinic time really refining the prism RX on that longstanding CNIV palsy. ;)



You're torn partially because you don't have enough experience in Ophthalmology to see how diverse it can be. In my resident clinic I see all sorts of neuro-ophthalmic or uveitic disease. NAION, PION, GCA, Syphilis, Sarcoid, CMV, crapload of Rheum/HLA-B27 associated stuff, more cranial nerve palsies than I can stomach, meningiomas, pituitary tumors, etc. Here's the thing you've got to realize about the doctors you may be shadowing in the private world: It's all real super interesting until you've seen it before and then it just takes up a lot of time. Right now to you diagnosing sarcoidosis based on the workup you did for someone's granulomatous anterior uveitis sounds really cool. That's because it is cool. But it's a lot of work to coordinate the care for that patient, and you won't be getting paid to take care of them as well as you're going to. So that's why some of these 'boring' comprehensive doctors you're following refer those people out.

Most everything is going to become fairly rote no matter what specialty you choose. Even when I counsel patients prior to an open globe repair it's fairly routine feeling at this point. When ENTs are doing neck dissections (God bless them), it's routine for them.

So just pick a field you find interesting. I would not want the lifestyle of an ENT. Give me a hundred of my boring cataract one week postops that tell me how thankful they are before you give me a single transphenoidal surgery.

In Ophthalmology you can realistically as a comprehensive doctor perform a lot of different procedures well. Your clinic could be as varied as you wanted. No matter what field you choose, most people kind of settle on the things they like to manage the most and that they are reimbursed decently for and just do those things. For the rest they recognize, diagnose, and refer out for treatment or start treatment and refer for continued care. Nothing is stopping you from doing strab surgeries on kids followed by a ptosis repair followed by a tube shunt followed by a pterygium before your temporal artery biopsy. You'll learn to do all of that in residency.

Interesting view and definitely helpful. So the more I find out about ophthalmology the more I like different areas of it more and more, but I am uncertain how realistic it is to build a practice off of these things. For example, I recently started watching a lot of cornea transplant, PKP, cornea melanoma stuff and find it really cool but I also see a lot of people saying that cornea mostly do comprehensive anyway so are there any corneal specialists out there that can survive alone on transplants and cornea specific pathology?
 
Interesting view and definitely helpful. So the more I find out about ophthalmology the more I like different areas of it more and more, but I am uncertain how realistic it is to build a practice off of these things. For example, I recently started watching a lot of cornea transplant, PKP, cornea melanoma stuff and find it really cool but I also see a lot of people saying that cornea mostly do comprehensive anyway so are there any corneal specialists out there that can survive alone on transplants and cornea specific pathology?

Sure, you can survive on cornea-only (clinic and surgery). But you will make less money compared to if you only do "high profit" procedures. But sometimes, you have to feed your intellectual hunger and not just your financial hunger...

Trust me -- all the general ophthalmologists in the nearby area wish that I would only do cornea/glaucoma surgeries. They don't like the fact that I'm sucking down all these cataracts and LASIK as well!
 
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Sure, you can survive on cornea-only (clinic and surgery). But you will make less money compared to if you only do "high profit" procedures. But sometimes, you have to feed your intellectual hunger and not just your financial hunger...

Trust me -- all the general ophthalmologists in the nearby area wish that I would only do cornea/glaucoma surgeries. They don't like the fact that I'm sucking down all these cataracts and LASIK as well!

Good to know! I think cornea with comprehensive would be a good mix, I was just curious how much you could tailor it to be more cornea heavy. If you don't mind what are some of the most common cornea stuff you see in a given week/month? Thanks.
 
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