How many vet schools have stopped using live animal surgeries?

[Shorty13]

If you have not heard the news, Madeline Pickens has lied about what goes on during Oklahoma State CVHS third year surgery elective. We are getting the truth out about our surgeries, but some critics have denounced our use of live animal surgeries in our veterinary training. The exact wording used by a PETA researcher were "Compassionate and effective training methods exist and have already been embraced by top veterinary schools that have largely phased out the harmful use of animals in their curricula." So I am curious, how many veterinary schools don't use live animal surgery? I am defending the use of live animal surgery and would like to know the numbers of schools that agree.

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[InfiniVet]

If you can explain to me why exactly live surgeries are bad to do while learning veterinary medicine & surgery, I will have this discussion with you.

Please use complete and rational thoughts.

 

[Shorty13]

I am defending the use of live animal surgeries. I just want to know if there is any fact to the PETA researcher's statement before I reply. Sorry that was not clear in the original post.

 

[Shorty13]

Here is a link to a follow-up article defending the OSU-CVHS program. http://www.enidnews.com/localnews/local_story_056000342.html
This contains the false allegations and a few vet students trying to get the truth out.

 

[VeganSoprano]

AVMA-accredited schools that do not do any terminal surgeries, according to AVAR's 2004 survey:

Tufts
KSU
Western
Ohio
Penn
Virginia-Maryland
PEI

It's by no means a majority, but certainly a large enough number that terminal surgeries should not be viewed as a requirement for becoming a competent doctor.

 

[StealthDog]

I'm not sure if any schools don't use live animals at all- terminal surgeries have been phased out of some, but I think even those schools still do survival surgery (i.e. survival spays/neuters).

The U of MN does a series of survival spays/neuters for our second year surgery course, an optional terminal surgery lab for our GI class, and a terminal sheep surgery in the bovine surgery elective.

 

[Jochebed]

gone

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Also, are we talking about live animal surgery *in general*? Or just live animal *terminal* surgery?

All vet schools (I would hope) do live animal surgeries. Not all do terminal.

we do spays (dogs and cats), castrations (dogs, cats, calves), prophylactic omentopexies (cows), C sections (sheep), and all manner of anesthesia/exams/etc on live animals. Usually more invasive approaches like orthopedics use cadavers. No terminals to my knowledge.

Pickens said "medicine has changed" and the practice of training veterinarians on live animals should no longer continue with today's technology.

ROFL. This lady knows jack all about medicine. what incredible nerve.

 

[InfiniVet]

I thought she was very clear when she said that her purpose was "defending the use of live animal surgery". She is simply looking for clarification on the PETA remarks as she did not believe there were any veterinary schools that had completely phased out the use of live animals.

Thats because she edited in that statement after my response.

 

[No Imagination]

Shorty , I love a good debate, I wouldn't get into this with PETA.

They, as an organization, have philosophical beliefs that move them beyond a fringe group, into something else all together.

You will take your time, get data to support your claims, empirical evidence, statistics, and hopefully mold that into a cohesive deductive argument.

PETA will say "All animals have rights, Human Rights are not better then Animals rights, QED: Any use of animals for teaching is prohibited."

You realize that the PETA, at its core beliefs, is against the entire veterinary profession, fundamentally.

A) PETA is against keeping pets
B) PETA is against raising/keep food animals
C) PETA is against Zoo's
D) PETA is against Wildlife Perserves
E) PETA is against Lab Animals

Not a lot of room for Veterinarians. I'd save your breath Shorty - You can't win this one.

Now, if you want to have this debate somewhere else with philosophical beliefs that are a bit more mainstream and universally accepted, then go for it!

 

[Jochebed]

gone

 

[ri23]

AVMA-accredited schools that do not do any terminal surgeries, according to AVAR's 2004 survey:

Tufts
KSU
Western
Ohio
Penn
Virginia-Maryland
PEI

It's by no means a majority, but certainly a large enough number that terminal surgeries should not be viewed as a requirement for becoming a competent doctor.

Huge difference between terminal and live animal surgeries. Ohio definitely does live animal surgeries.

 

[twelvetigers]

The Pickens thing was addressed here, so any discussions on that matter should probably take place in that thread.

Terminal surgeries are still very common in vet schools.

 

[Shorty13]

Thank you all for the information. Infinivet- thank you for letting me know my position was unclear in the first post; I fixed it immediately. I also thought everyone would be interested to know that OSU-CVHS has researched (well before Ms. Pickens began this publicity mess) the cost of having no terminal surgeries in the 3rd year surgery course. The funding is what is keeping us from changing our program. Although Ms. Picken's money comes with too many stipulations for a veterinary program to accept, I hope this will bring in more funding from other donors to continue to improve our program. Thanks again for the info and support.

 

[dyachei]

Tennessee only has optional terminal surgeries. I think the only classes that require it are electives. We do have surgeries on live animals. The first was in second year - spay/neuter on shelter animals.

 

[VeganSoprano]

Huge difference between terminal and live animal surgeries. Ohio definitely does live animal surgeries.

Agreed. I was assuming (potentially incorrectly, of course) that performing surgery that would benefit the patient was not considered objectionable. Vet students perform a great service to the animals and to society as a whole by spaying and neutering shelter animals and feral cats.

 

[KittenKiller]

Penn definitely has at least one elective with terminal surgery, so that list is wrong.

It's a shame that PETA is the self-proclaimed figurehead of animal rights. They turn off a lot of otherwise sympathetic folks. I don't believe they are actually against companion animals (see their FAQ) but they are just about fundamentally opposed to every other industry vets are involved in (horses, zoos, food animals)

 

[bellacavallino]

For PETA to be upset about vet schools having terminal surgery's/ euthanizing patients is SO hypocritical!! The animals that PETA "saves", 90% are euthanized!!! An "animal rights" group that kills the majority(90%) of the animals they rescue. How does this make sense?? PETA is a joke!

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/

 

[Bill59]

But jokes are supposed to be funny.

 

[No Imagination]

I don't believe they are actually against companion animals (see their FAQ) but they are just about fundamentally opposed to every other industry vets are involved in (horses, zoos, food animals)

I read their faq's concerning companion animals, and they pretty much dodge the question, saying "Adopting a cat or dog from a shelter and providing a loving home is a small but powerful way to prevent some of this suffering."

But several of their spokespeople over the years have come out directly against companion animals:

"Pet ownership is an absolutely abysmal situation brought about by human manipulation." -- Ingrid Newkirk, national director,
People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PeTA), Just Like Us?
Toward a Nation of Animal Rights"

"As John Bryant has written in his book Fettered Kingdoms, they [pets] are like slaves, even if well-kept slaves." --PeTA's Statement on Companion Animals.

PETA's FAQ's is simply a toned down version of their beliefs -

Now, if anyone can link anything more recent were a PETA spokesman says that keeping companion animals is ALRIGHT (and not just "better" then euthanasia or shelter life), I will be both surprised and retract my statement. But I can't find it on the internets.

 

[rugbychick16]

Go to peta.org online forums and you will find out that basically...

PETA believes that all breeding of companion animals should stop. Right now. All cats/dogs/etc alive right now as pets + in shelters should be cared for and loved for the rest of their natural lives. Then, in 20ish years when thats over, we should no longer keep "pets" because "animals are not ours to use in any way". There should no longer be any domestic animals.

They believe the same should be done with cows/sheep/pigs when "the whole world goes vegan" because we should not be using these animals in any way.

Most of the forum members don't think too highly of veterinarians either, due the AVMA supporting issues such as horse slaughter, vaccinations, and our supposed lack of knowledge about animal nutrition.

 

[Gordo]

But jokes are supposed to be funny.

But the things that PETA does are hilarious. PETA is a major joke. I am not talking about things regarding this topic. I barrel race and am big into rodeo, the things they do to stop rodeo is crazy, like parachuting into the arena during the rodeo to get them to stop, so people drag them out and the rodeo continues. Now that is funny

 

[rileyroo]

since it was mentioned that the original list was incorrect, i'm wondering if there is updated information regarding which schools do (required or optional) or don't do terminal surgeries.

AVMA-accredited schools that do not do any terminal surgeries, according to AVAR's 2004 survey:

Tufts
KSU
Western
Ohio
Penn
Virginia-Maryland
PEI

It's by no means a majority, but certainly a large enough number that terminal surgeries should not be viewed as a requirement for becoming a competent doctor.

Never mind, found the link!

 

[Poochlover11]

like parachuting into the arena during the rodeo to get them to stop, so people drag them out and the rodeo continues. Now that is funny

Hmmm...that would be interesting. It would be even more ironic if the very animal they were trying to save maimed them in the arena during their parachute free fall.

 

[aspiringDVM]

Could some of you vet students/ other knowledgeable people give some input as to what types of terminal surgeries, if any, are done at your schools?

 

[crewgal]

Are terminal surgeries any worse than killing the animals and then using the cadaver for surgery? In the terminal surgery, if the animal is anesthetized correctly, it won't feel any paint and then it is euthanized while it is still anesthetized. Either way the animal is killed for our education. Is one really better than the other?

As far as the list I think it's only required terminal surgeries.

 

[LynnKat]

Could some of you vet students/ other knowledgeable people give some input as to what types of terminal surgeries, if any, are done at your schools?

At Penn, the required Junior Surgery course consists of survival spays on shelter dogs. There are no required courses with terminal procedures.

The elective SA surgery course does various survival surgeries on dogs and cats who are adopted. The elective LA course does survival surgeries on ponies and a terminal sheep surgery.

 

[sumstorm]

I asked about terminal surgeries at NCSU and was told that there is one required that uses pigs.

I read an article in DVM 360 that said the recommendation committee was recommending to AVMA that the use of shelter dogs for any and all procedures in vet school (including post euth work) be discouraged. I guess that means they think purpose bred is better, which kind of disturbs me.

Also, terminal surgeries aren't the only kind of life animal surgeries performed (the OP's comment mentioned live animal surgeries but the posts towards the end are referencing terminal surgeries.) Also, I believe even the schools that don't do terminal surgeries do use cadavers. Unless those are 100% natural death donated bodies, we are still using animals as an expendable resource for our education.

 

[spikey]

I read an article in DVM 360 that said the recommendation committee was recommending to AVMA that the use of shelter dogs for any and all procedures in vet school (including post euth work) be discouraged. I guess that means they think purpose bred is better, which kind of disturbs me.

That is a bit disturbing. They didn't give any more information about why they took that view point?

 

[sumstorm]

It is a recent addition, I think it is in the back seat of my car, so when it isn't pouring rain, I will grab it. It was the front page article. It was talking aobut the committee recomendations and how it may not match the professional population's viewpoints on a variety of topics like cropping and docking, animal use in education, and a couple of other things.

DVM 360 has a lot of their articles online...might find it there before I get a chance to go find the magazine

 

[sumstorm]

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dv.../ArticleStandard/Article/detail/613837?ref=25

That is the article

I am wrong, it is only about live surgeries, but I can't see the cadaver part being far behind. The part that troubled me:

The HAC is recommending the AVMA's policy do away with using live dogs and cats from animal shelters in research, testing and education.
"Representing itself as the authority on animal-welfare issues, the AVMA should adopt a policy which is more sensitive to the issues surrounding the source of live dogs and cats used for research, testing and education," HAC says, citing that "pound seizure" already is illegal in 17 states and Washington, D.C.
The policy, if approved, would make an exception for dogs and cats used during harmless procedures, such as physical exams, spaying and neutering, bandaging, ultrasonography and radiology.
The HAC warns current policy could turn people off to animal shelters.
"The AVMA should not support a policy whereby animals that are abandoned, neglected or simply lost are relocated to a research or testing facility instead of a loving home or, where necessary, humanely euthanized," the HAC states.

 

[jenobeno]

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