How good are Caribbean medical schools compared to US med schools?

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inshanesworld said:
With certainty there are some schools outside the US that are worth their salt. But with no governing body assuring universal standards you really are running a risk. The LCME goes to extreme lengths to assure that US education at all schools it up to muster and the USMLE passing rates show it. My advice to the OP is to really research carefully. Anecdotal evidence is stupid advice to follow. Like Bob the car salesman telling you he only buys Cadillacs. You will wish you would have checked out Edmunds.com first and as much as I love this site studentdoctor.net is not an Edmunds.
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I agree with this 100%.
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Quoting Er-Er-oh
I hardly think relating a large, heterogenous group of people, i.e. people from all foreign schools, and using the numbers from the sites you've listed above as an example shows a grasp of scientific method, let alone 'pragmatism'.

I went to SGU and my class had a 92% pass rate. PERIOD. All schools are not the same. Howard Univ. (what's their pass rate?) is not Harvard, nor is SUNY Downstate (pass rate?) the Univ. of Michigan.
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Now for this person...are you saying that Howard is not as good as Harvard because it has a lot of black students in it? Pretty damn racist if you ask me. (Why else would you make the claim that Howard is a low class school?) May want to work on your PC skills Doc.
 
McGillGrad said:
Do not go to the Carib expecting anything but FM or IM. If you do, then you are going to be disappointed. Might you score rads? Maybe. Should you expect it. No.
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I would probably reword that to read " Do not go to the caribbean if you have no work ethic, ambition, drive and EXPECT to land anything but IM/FP(if you are very lucky..still need to graduate, pass Step I, II Ck/CS)" I say that admitting that many of the brightest and most talented go into aforementioned fields every year out of love and interest for them.
The only thing you should EXPECT from your school is that if you work hard you will graduate and have a recognised degree. What residency you end up in will be dictated by your USMLEs, LORs, Contacts, interviewing skills, away rotations, competitiveness of your chosen speciality that year, amount of blood, sweat, tears poured into your third year clerkships and lastly there is a dircet correlation between amount of DREs performed and H & Ps written during third year with the residency attained. You've been warned.:scared:
 
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bulletproof said:
I would probably reword that to read " Do not go to the caribbean if you have no work ethic, ambition, drive and EXPECT to land anything but IM/FP(if you are very lucky..still need to graduate, pass Step I, II Ck/CS)" I say that admitting that many of the brightest and most talented go into aforementioned fields every year out of love and interest for them.
The only thing you should EXPECT from your school is that if you work hard you will graduate and have a recognised degree. What residency you end up in will be dictated by your USMLEs, LORs, Contacts, interviewing skills, away rotations, competitiveness of your chosen speciality that year, amount of blood, sweat, tears poured into your third year clerkships and lastly there is a dircet correlation between amount of DREs performed and H & Ps written during third year with the residency attained. You've been warned.:scared:
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Finally a great Post :thumbup:
 
jackbnimble said:
Anecdotes are useless.

What is the probability of uncertainty for a Carib grad matching in radiology?

Cousin Bob used to work with a woman that knew someone's choir-mate that became a dermatologist and went to medical school somewhere down by Puerto Rico should not be considered a ringing endorsement of the probability of matching derm out of, say Ross.
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The med schools in Puerto Rico are LCME and AMA accredited schools and as such are considered US med schools. BTW PR is also a territory of the US, so it wouldnt be fair to compare those schools to caribbean schools which are not accredited and are considered foreign med schools.
 
Dr Who said:
The med schools in Puerto Rico are LCME and AMA accredited schools and as such are considered US med schools. BTW PR is also a territory of the US, so it wouldnt be fair to compare those schools to caribbean schools which are not accredited and are considered foreign med schools.
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I did not write the reply in question but umm...I believe he said BY PR not at PR. You know those pesky two letter words are sometimes quite important in the proper interpretation of english prose. Details are important in medicine...they keep us from cardioverting someone who simply ate too many hot wings.

I actually found jackbnimble's reply to be quite witty in that most americans have no idea about anything related to world geography and so was kind of a pun (so many people think that carribbean = PR so naturally grenada must be right next door instead of far, far away as it really is).
 
I keep saying this over and over again, Look at the Step1 scores and the Match lists from each school and make up your mind. Some think because you go to a Caribbean school you can't match anything other than FM and IM and that would be incorrect. Usually half of the matches are FM and IM but we have Derm, Rads, EM, Surgery, and the list goes on. I was looking at a match list from a US school and I saw almost the same % of matches. Looks like FM and IM is popular where ever you attend.
 
Love to join in on US vs Carribean schools, there is a thread every few months. Great info listed on previous responses. Would reiterate that though the pass rates from ECFMG are the average stats, these are not reflective of the top 4 carribean schools. As stated multiple times, SGU's pass rate in 2002 was 92%, and has ranged for the last 10-15 yrs around 89-92%, this is a FACT, not an opinion. If that is the barometer for comparison then SGU compares quite favorably to a US school. As a SGU grad now in residency, and looking at previous match lists including from my year, always, more primary care matches but we do match students into ER, Anesthesia, Rads. Ortho, optho, derm is much less frequent but does happen, just look at the 2006 match list, there is an optho and neurosurg match. It does help to know if you know what specialty you want to go into, you can then make a more secure decision but again, if you really want to be an MD and you have to go to a non-US school, carribean is the way to go as they have placement for clinical experience here in the states.
 
inshanesworld said:
Quoting Er-Er-oh


Now for this person...are you saying that Howard is not as good as Harvard because it has a lot of black students in it? Pretty damn racist if you ask me. (Why else would you make the claim that Howard is a low class school?) May want to work on your PC skills Doc.
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O.K. my friend, I'll take the bait...are you, like, 14 years old? Who said anything about Howard being low class? Claim? What claim? What kind of person makes an inference like that from my statement?

Look up the numbers, look up the admission requirement data for each of the schools I listed. They are at somewhat opposite ends of the spectrum when you compare them. Then look at yourself in the mirror and ask why you post on this forum. Then look up "IPSE DIXIT". Then learn to be an adult.
 
Hi. I have never had the good fortune of attending a US medical school, but I am a 4th semester at a carib school. Take the US school if you can get it. Seems that most who ask this question ask it because they do not feel they have a shot at a US school. Take a chance; force them to tell you no. Then look at the carib schools. Regardless of where you go, you will achieve your dreams if you want it bad enough! No one said Roger Bannister would run the 4 miute mile, yet after he did, 13 or so others did the same the following year. No one believed mike jordan would become Michael Jordan, except for Michael. What YOU believe is what is important. I wish you the very best and know you can do whatever you set your mind to. Best wishes!
 
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sbturnisback said:
Hi. I have never had the good fortune of attending a US medical school, but I am a 4th semester at a carib school. Take the US school if you can get it. Seems that most who ask this question ask it because they do not feel they have a shot at a US school. Take a chance; force them to tell you no. Then look at the carib schools. Regardless of where you go, you will achieve your dreams if you want it bad enough! No one said Roger Bannister would run the 4 miute mile, yet after he did, 13 or so others did the same the following year. No one believed mike jordan would become Michael Jordan, except for Michael. What YOU believe is what is important. I wish you the very best and know you can do whatever you set your mind to. Best wishes!
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BEING SUED CAN BE VERY EXPENSIVE FOR YOU AND YOUR PARENTS KEEP IT COOL GO THRU LEGAL CHANNELS BUT SLANDER IS NOT TOLERATED ANYMORE AND CAN PUT YOU IN DEEP TROUBLE AND FINANCIAL PAINS RIGHT NOW YOU ARE MAKING CLAIMS ABOUT AN INSTITUTION YOURE PART OF AND THAT ALONE CAN BE REASON FOR BEING EXPELLED...TAKE CARE

PS THEY KNOW YOU AND I FEEL SOMEONE IS ABOUT TO BE THE SCAPEGOAT VERY SHORTLY
 
DRJJ1 said:
BEING SUED CAN BE VERY EXPENSIVE FOR YOU AND YOUR PARENTS KEEP IT COOL GO THRU LEGAL CHANNELS BUT SLANDER IS NOT TOLERATED ANYMORE AND CAN PUT YOU IN DEEP TROUBLE AND FINANCIAL PAINS RIGHT NOW YOU ARE MAKING CLAIMS ABOUT AN INSTITUTION YOURE PART OF AND THAT ALONE CAN BE REASON FOR BEING EXPELLED...TAKE CARE

PS THEY KNOW YOU AND I FEEL SOMEONE IS ABOUT TO BE THE SCAPEGOAT VERY SHORTLY
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I would be careful with the threats. Is he lieing? Tell us?
 
I never post or say something I am not willing to own up to. Kick me out. SMU will be doing me a favor. I would love it. I have stated what I experienced with SMU and my opinion about the school. If you are a school official then do what you feel is right. If not, run and tell SMU. You think I am going to run and hide. I said it with 4 weeks left in the semester. I am applying to other schools as we speak. SMU can expel me, so what. They can run and tell the other schools that I was expelled. They can tell them not to accept me. They can do whatever they want. It is not going to stop me from doing what I am going to do. SMU has absolutley no power or influence whatsoever in my life. I do not like SMU. I am leaving the school. Threaten me all you want. Try to keep me out of medicine. I stand by what I say. People who know me, know I am taking a huge risk doing this. But, they know who I am, what I stand for and where I am going. They know what I say is what I believe. And, they know I stand by everything I say.
 
When you guys say Caribbean med schools are for people who don't have good grades, what GPA would be considered not good enough for US med schools? I know I am only a high school student, but I can't help it I'm curious :).
 
IMbound

As stated multiple times, SGU's pass rate in 2002 was 92%, and has ranged for the last 10-15 yrs around 89-92%, this is a FACT, not an opinion. If that is the barometer for comparison then SGU compares quite favorably to a US school.


Do you have a table for this linked somewhere? I would love to be able to show this to students.
 
...just a quick question or two...has a Caribbean graduate ever made it into a neurosurgery residency in the US?? are there any other places besides the US for the Carib.grad to pursue a route to neurosurgery, especially if your school is somehow NOT on the WHO list ...shocking i know...
 
I am hearing that graduates from some Caribbean medical schools cannot practice in the US. Obviously some if not all can because we have caribbean graduates practicing here. Does anyone know if this is true and if so, which ones can versus which ones cannot.

There seems to be some evidence that it is harder to get a competitive US residency if you attended a Caribbean school but not impossible. This doesnt concern me as much as the ability to practice.
 
I'm not an expert on this, but I recommend highly that you investigate thoroughly any Caribbean med school you are thinking of attending.
I highly suspect it is true that some schools would not be acceptable to US residencies, and/or in certain states. This is because the US has certain rules about what type of medical education is acceptable. You should check the ECFMG web site, and probably some other places as well. I know one of the sticking points is that there are certain required clinical clerkships that have to be done as a medical student, and students need to be supervised in certain ways, etc. It would be awful to go to school for 4 years, thinking you are going to practice in the US, and then not be able to. There is more to being allowed to do a US residency than just taking and passing the USMLE. That is certainly required, but it isn't the only thing. That said, there are certainly several Caribbean schools, like St George and Ross, that have a lot of docs practicing in the US, and that have relationships with US hospitals, so it's possible to go to school there and get a US residency. You just need to do your homework in terms of these schools, and if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. If the school can't give you proof and hard statistics of where its graduates are and what % are passing the USMLE test, I would be very skeptical. Again, check with ECFMG.
 
radon222 said:
IMbound

As stated multiple times, SGU's pass rate in 2002 was 92%, and has ranged for the last 10-15 yrs around 89-92%, this is a FACT, not an opinion. If that is the barometer for comparison then SGU compares quite favorably to a US school.


Do you have a table for this linked somewhere? I would love to be able to show this to students.
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This is the SGU website, has alumni statistics including residency placements over the last 10 yrs.
http://www.sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.nsf/alumni/student-profile.html

Hope that helps.
 
Phenomena said:
...just a quick question or two...has a Caribbean graduate ever made it into a neurosurgery residency in the US?? are there any other places besides the US for the Carib.grad to pursue a route to neurosurgery, especially if your school is somehow NOT on the WHO list ...shocking i know...
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Yes, SGU had a neurosurg placement in 2006. The link is below....
http://www.sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.nsf/alumni/2006-postgraduate-residency.html#l

Now, having said that for this particular student, he applied twice. The first time he actually got 11 interviews but did not match. He ended up matching the second time but I don't really know what he did in that year. It is really difficult to match into these ultracompetitive residencies from the carribean but no necessarily impossible. It is important, though, that if you go to the carib schools that he be prepared for the possibility that you won't attain one of these residencies.
 
SGU first time USMLE pass rate over the last 10 years averaged 90%. The overall USMLE pass rate is 99%.

Also, 99%+ of SGU's eligible US graduates who applied obtained ACGME-approved positions in over 650 hospitals throughout 50 states. Graduates have obtained everything from IM to Derm. Essentially, eligible US graduates means they have graduated and passed USMLE step 1 and 2. Yes, they must pass the internal exam (either after first year or second year, so get your facts straight McGillGrad), but believe me, they are much easier than USMLE. (See attrition rate below)

So what about attrition rate? According to the website (which McGillGrad will kindly post for you), the SGU attrition rate is roughly 14%. For all intents and purposes, it's really 7% because half of those 14% end up transferring into US schools. I seriously doubt that any of the other Caribbean schools can say that 7% of their students are able to transfer to US schools.

Now, someone please tell me about another Caribbean school that has those stats?? I do not even think any of the other Caribbean schools disclose that info. If they do, I would like to know. The fact that many of these schools do not even require an MCAT speaks for itself. Many of these schools will accept someone with any GPA, or any MCAT score. SGU average for accepted students is about 3.3-3.4 GPA and 26 MCAT. That is not that far off from some US schools.

And you know what? Even if you throw out all of what I just said, the campus of SGU is beautiful; everything is state of the art. I don't care if its the lecture halls, labs, dorms, whatever. State of the art!!

Oh SGU has the most clinical centers (so you can do all of your 3rd and 4th year rotations in one location, as opposed to many of the other schools where you have to move around the country). SGU just completed a deal with HHC hospitals in NY, a $100 million dollar contract over 10 years. SGU has always had enough clinical spots for their students. Now they have that many more and essentially eliminating spots from some of the other Caribbean schools.

But I am only trying to help you. I would give the same advice to my own brother (obviously I would tell him to get into a US school if he can).

I would say get into SGU if you can. If not, Ross, Saba, and AUC would be adequate backups. But instead of listening to me, or McGillGrad for that matter, call and get info on the individual school you are considering. Ask the appropriate questions (like the topics I mentioned). I tried calling Ross, it seems like they never answer the phone, so good luck with that.

driventobeadoc said:
Can anyone give me anykind of information about the schools and the standard of medical school education in the caribbean. Studying outside united states, will it affect the matching for residency.....any info is appreciated. I am thinking about caribbean med schools as i am an international student residing in US. For foreign students, getting into medical schools in US is very tough as the schools require citizen ship or permanent residency.

Please give me any info aboutt Caribbean schools and if possible the best schools to apply and things to look for in the schools.
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Caribbean med schools are made of a mix of students who either may have been excellent students in undergrad and just didn't make it into a US school or were mediocre students who just want to become a doctor through the easiest way possible. That being said, as a patient having to choose between 2 doctors, with the only information being that one was trained in the US and the other in the caribbean, maybe this is being elitist, but I would choose the US-trained doctor every time.
 
hello2u said:
Caribbean med schools are made of a mix of students who either may have been excellent students in undergrad and just didn't make it into a US school or were mediocre students who just want to become a doctor through the easiest way possible. That being said, as a patient having to choose between 2 doctors, with the only information being that one was trained in the US and the other in the caribbean, maybe this is being elitist, but I would choose the US-trained doctor every time.
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I would choose the the doctor with the better personality. Call me elitist, but I don't like NERDS. Anyone who spends their wole life in a library from undergrad through med school is a dangerous person.
 
hello2u said:
Caribbean med schools are made of a mix of students who either may have been excellent students in undergrad and just didn't make it into a US school or were mediocre students who just want to become a doctor through the easiest way possible. That being said, as a patient having to choose between 2 doctors, with the only information being that one was trained in the US and the other in the caribbean, maybe this is being elitist, but I would choose the US-trained doctor every time.
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Do you think that the patient is well informed about the training of their MD/DO? The exam rooms dont have degrees, diplomas and certifications on display.

I would love to see a survey of patients that can tell you where their pcp went to med school/trained in residency!!

As for me, I will hand pick my child's pediatrician based on where they trained. But IMO, this is because I am an informed consumer.

rlxdmd
 
ER-ER-Oh said:
I went to SGU and my class had a 92% pass rate. PERIOD. All schools are not the same. SUNY Downstate (pass rate?)
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SUNY downstate pass rate the last 2 years: 100% and 99%
http://sls.downstate.edu/student_affairs/docs/newsletters/medicine/200710newsletter.pdf

SabaMed said:
I Usually half of the matches are FM and IM but we have Derm, Rads, EM, Surgery, and the list goes on. I was looking at a match list from a US school and I saw almost the same % of matches. Looks like FM and IM is popular where ever you attend.
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Riiiight... How bout examples that dont involve HBCUs

relaxedMD said:
Do you think that the patient is well informed about the training of their MD/DO? The exam rooms dont have degrees, diplomas and certifications on display.

I would love to see a survey of patients that can tell you where their pcp went to med school/trained in residency!!

As for me, I will hand pick my child's pediatrician based on where they trained. But IMO, this is because I am an informed consumer.

rlxdmd
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Now adays with the internet it is very easy to be an informed consumer.

That said, most wont be able to recognize a state school that is not in their state.
 
driventobeadoc said:
Very good information, Thank you
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While this is mostly true, it does not tell the whole story. Internal medicine is very broad in terms of how competitive it is. There are very easy IM programs to get, there are very hard IM programs to get (UCSF, Wash U, Harvard, Duke, Mayo to name a few), and then there is everything in between. If you want cardiology, you should try and get the best possible IM residency in order to increase your chances of getting a cardiology fellowship. Gastroenterology and Cardiology are the toughest fellowships to get out of IM. It's not easy to get cardio.

To get the best IM residency you can, you should do well in your classes, do well on USMLE, and do well in clinicals to get great letters of rec. Graduating from a U.S. school is an advantage over any foreign school. When you look at residency programs, most of the residents graudated from US schools of course. Of those residents who graduated from a Caribbean school, I would say that 99% of them were either from SGU, Ross, AUC, or Saba. Of those four, SGU is by far the best, but that is for another thread.

All of this is based on my experience. I went to 15 interviews for IM, I saw where their residents went to medical school (they posted a list in their brochure). I've rotated with students from Cornell and other US schools, I've rotated with students from other Caribbean schools, and I've rotated with students from D.O. schools.
 
Shah_Patel_PT said:
I know a Ross graduate who just prematched into a radiology residency in NY. And its only been a week since ERAS opened!!!
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Not to knock anyone, but I think this is worth mentioning. Most reputable residency programs do not offer pre-match. For those who are offered a pre-match, be careful of what you sign up for. For example, make sure they get the the maximum 5 year ACGME accreditation. It actually looks bad for a program to offer a pre-match. There is the thought that "they were not good enough to fill during the match, so they have to resort to pre-matching residents." I've never heard of a university program offering pre-match, so I'm guessing it was not a university program.

I should note that only a few programs are granted 10 year ACGME accreditation. Generally speaking, the max ACGME accreditation is 5 years.
 
Wet Coma said:
Not to knock anyone, but I think this is worth mentioning. Most reputable residency programs do not offer pre-match. For those who are offered a pre-match, be careful of what you sign up for. For example, make sure they get the the maximum 5 year ACGME accreditation. It actually looks bad for a program to offer a pre-match. There is the thought that "they were not good enough to fill during the match, so they have to resort to pre-matching residents." I've never heard of a university program offering pre-match, so I'm guessing it was not a university program.

I should note that only a few programs are granted 10 year ACGME accreditation. Generally speaking, the max ACGME accreditation is 5 years.
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a fellow SGU grad has prematched into Anesthesia at a University program this year. so now you've heard of it.
 
Wet Coma said:
Not to knock anyone, but I think this is worth mentioning. Most reputable residency programs do not offer pre-match. For those who are offered a pre-match, be careful of what you sign up for. For example, make sure they get the the maximum 5 year ACGME accreditation. It actually looks bad for a program to offer a pre-match. There is the thought that "they were not good enough to fill during the match, so they have to resort to pre-matching residents." I've never heard of a university program offering pre-match, so I'm guessing it was not a university program.

I should note that only a few programs are granted 10 year ACGME accreditation. Generally speaking, the max ACGME accreditation is 5 years.
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Interesting.

Especially considering I vividly remember being offered a pre-match at not one, but two university programs.

Oh, and my fellowship was obtained as a pre-match.

As much as we hate the Match, programs hate it just as much. If they see an applicant that they want and does not have to follow the rules of the Match (pre-match), they will scoop them up pronto.
 
Yeah, for whatever reason, anesthesia seems to be one of the specialties that sometimes offers out of the match spots fairly frequently. It does depend on the program. You don't see places like Harvard, Hopkins, etc. do this very much. But there are decent programs that do. I know someone who got anesthesia this way at a university affiliated program in New York City. For one thing, if an anesthesiology program knows they need/want someone for NEXT year (rather than 2 years from now) they'll often look for folks who are currently doing (or have done) a prelim year and sign them up. They get folks who have done surgical prelim, or IM prelim, etc.

There are fellowships that talk folks outside the match as well. I got offered a cards spot that way, and another program hinted they would if I expressed interest. However, as I would have had to drop out of the match, and as I felt the programs weren't as good as some of the other ones I'd applied to, I declined.

I think programs offer outside the match spots for a variety of reasons...the biggest one is that they've had trouble getting the candidates they wanted in the Match and feel they can do better going outside the match. So in general I do think it's the less competitive programs that do this...but not always. Sometimes a program just unexpectedly has an extra spot because of someone quitting, or because they were allowed to expand their program. And just because a program is less competitive doesn't mean it sucks...esp. if you don't plan to do academics as a career. Some places just don't fill as easily b/c they are in geographically less popular places, like rural areas, or because they are in an inner city and the work is harder, etc.
 
dragonfly99 said:
Yeah, for whatever reason, anesthesia seems to be one of the specialties that sometimes offers out of the match spots fairly frequently. It does depend on the program. You don't see places like Harvard, Hopkins, etc. do this very much. But there are decent programs that do. I know someone who got anesthesia this way at a university affiliated program in New York City. For one thing, if an anesthesiology program knows they need/want someone for NEXT year (rather than 2 years from now) they'll often look for folks who are currently doing (or have done) a prelim year and sign them up. They get folks who have done surgical prelim, or IM prelim, etc.

There are fellowships that talk folks outside the match as well. I got offered a cards spot that way, and another program hinted they would if I expressed interest. However, as I would have had to drop out of the match, and as I felt the programs weren't as good as some of the other ones I'd applied to, I declined.

I think programs offer outside the match spots for a variety of reasons...the biggest one is that they've had trouble getting the candidates they wanted in the Match and feel they can do better going outside the match. So in general I do think it's the less competitive programs that do this...but not always. Sometimes a program just unexpectedly has an extra spot because of someone quitting, or because they were allowed to expand their program. And just because a program is less competitive doesn't mean it sucks...esp. if you don't plan to do academics as a career. Some places just don't fill as easily b/c they are in geographically less popular places, like rural areas, or because they are in an inner city and the work is harder, etc.
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Totally agree. Especially in the world of internal medicine where it seems that so many med students are hell-bent to go to Harvard, Hopkins, WashU and such, that many people forget about the other excellent univeristy programs that are out there. Some of these programs go through the match, but offer a few spots through the prematch for applicants they want. These less-competitive university programs are perfect for those who do not want to do academics. Fellowships work in the same way. Actually, I hear of prematches offered in higher numbers to fellowships applicants than residency applicants.
 
dragonfly99 said:
Yeah, for whatever reason, anesthesia seems to be one of the specialties that sometimes offers out of the match spots fairly frequently. It does depend on the program. You don't see places like Harvard, Hopkins, etc. do this very much. But there are decent programs that do. I know someone who got anesthesia this way at a university affiliated program in New York City. For one thing, if an anesthesiology program knows they need/want someone for NEXT year (rather than 2 years from now) they'll often look for folks who are currently doing (or have done) a prelim year and sign them up. They get folks who have done surgical prelim, or IM prelim, etc.

There are fellowships that talk folks outside the match as well. I got offered a cards spot that way, and another program hinted they would if I expressed interest. However, as I would have had to drop out of the match, and as I felt the programs weren't as good as some of the other ones I'd applied to, I declined.

I think programs offer outside the match spots for a variety of reasons...the biggest one is that they've had trouble getting the candidates they wanted in the Match and feel they can do better going outside the match. So in general I do think it's the less competitive programs that do this...but not always. Sometimes a program just unexpectedly has an extra spot because of someone quitting, or because they were allowed to expand their program. And just because a program is less competitive doesn't mean it sucks...esp. if you don't plan to do academics as a career. Some places just don't fill as easily b/c they are in geographically less popular places, like rural areas, or because they are in an inner city and the work is harder, etc.
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so even US grads can sign outside the match for fellowships? once you're in your residency there are no more rules like you have to go through the match? cause I know US grads can't sign outside the match, at least not while they're seniors.

also what's your opinion on the fact that if a program offers you a prematch and you decline you shouldn't even bother ranking them because they won't rank you high cause well you turned them down so why would they rank you high? or is that false thinking and there's a still a good chance that just because you turned down a prematch they'll still rank you high enough to match?
 
SabaMed said:
All you have to look at the Step 1 scores. I know Saba graduates are destroying the Step1, I personally know someone that wrote above 260. In fact I can't think or know of anyone that didnt pass the Step1 from Saba and look at the match list. Now there are some schools out there that do not prepare their students well and shouldn't be around. Schools like SGU, SABA and AUC are preparing their students well and it shows in the Steps. As one of my professors have said time and time again "show me the data".
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I am currently a pre-med international student in USA. However, b/c of high tuition in US, i am considering Carribbean medical schools. Based on my research, I found SABA and Saint James School of Medicine within my budget. Your review on SABA is very helpful.

Have you heard anything about Saint James? It has a very reasonable tuition, $4,200/semester. But I am doubtful whether it has a program that will be acceptable in US. Can you please guide me with any info you have about Saint James Schoold of Medicine (SJSM)? experience of a SJSM student?
 
Maybe someone covered this and I too lazy to read everything but is it impossible to get into general surgery or EM if I go to a Caribbean school?

Thanks!
 
Stingray1 said:
Listen carefully. There is NO difference especially in the basic science curriculum. Naturally there are different ways different schools (US and foreign) present the material which depends on the changing relevency as deemed by the medical school in any geographic location.
The only issue is that US medical guild looks down upon FMGs. They want to keep up the status and prestige of this guild and artifically curb uncontrolled growth.
For example, a new med school in US was formed after a long pause, namely Lerner Med School at the Clev Clinic. I am sure you know of this.
But it is not even listed OFICIALLY as a independent medical school but rather as a part of Case Western reserve Univ. School of Medicine. Infact the basic scinece classes for the Lerner students are held at Case Western Med School.
Click to expand...
This response has nothing to do with this thread except that the person I quoted above brought my school up and has no idea what he's talking about. In case anyone cares, our basic science classes are done at Cleveland Clinic, not at Case. And the reason CCLCM isn't listed as a separate school is because it *isn't* a separate school. We are Case students in a research track (5 year research MD).

Ok, so I guess I should contribute something useful to this thread now since I just wasted five minutes of my life and yours refuting some guy who posted three years ago. How about this. From my experience rotating through CCF, it seems like a lot of specialties here are pretty IMG-friendly. (And DO-friendly too.) RussianJoo, that definitely applies to anesthesiology, which is the rotation I'm doing now. You might want to check it out.

Good luck to everyone applying this year.
 
CCLCMer said:
This response has nothing to do with this thread except that the person I quoted above brought my school up and has no idea what he's talking about. In case anyone cares, our basic science classes are done at Cleveland Clinic, not at Case. And the reason CCLCM isn't listed as a separate school is because it *isn't* a separate school. We are Case students in a research track (5 year research MD).

Ok, so I guess I should contribute something useful to this thread now since I just wasted five minutes of my life and yours refuting some guy who posted three years ago. How about this. From my experience rotating through CCF, it seems like a lot of specialties here are pretty IMG-friendly. (And DO-friendly too.) RussianJoo, that definitely applies to anesthesiology, which is the rotation I'm doing now. You might want to check it out.

Good luck to everyone applying this year.
Click to expand...

thanks for the post, i know that the clinic is friendly to FMGs. however i think they're looking for those that have extensive anesthesia experience, i.e. attendings or profs of anesthesia in their own country so that they can teach the US residents and bring something new to the program. I think it will be almost impossible for a recent grad from a carib school to match there. I also know that the clinic holds many spots outside the match for people like that.

have you bumped into any brand new residents who just graduated from a carib school? or any foriegn school? i would bet that all the FMGs you meet as residents are older and have already completed an anesthesia residency and were very good in their home countries.
 
RussianJoo said:
thanks for the post, i know that the clinic is friendly to FMGs. however i think they're looking for those that have extensive anesthesia experience, i.e. attendings or profs of anesthesia in their own country so that they can teach the US residents and bring something new to the program. I think it will be almost impossible for a recent grad from a carib school to match there. I also know that the clinic holds many spots outside the match for people like that.

have you bumped into any brand new residents who just graduated from a carib school? or any foriegn school? i would bet that all the FMGs you meet as residents are older and have already completed an anesthesia residency and were very good in their home countries.
Click to expand...
Hmm, I don't know. I'll see what I can find out for you.
 
RussianJoo said:
thank you.
Click to expand...
Ok, I've been asking around a little. You are kind of right and kind of wrong, from what I'm hearing. It seems to be true that a lot of the foreign grads are going through second residencies in this country. But it also seems that Caribbean grads might be in a different category, especially if they are American citizens. In other words, a Caribbean grad with good board scores, letters, etc. would have a chance, especially if they're also an American citizen, which a lot of them are. So the consensus from what I've gathered is that you should probably try applying here. I know this is totally anecdotal, but I hope it's helpful. Good luck applying.
 
Hi everyone,

I have been reading posts on and off on this site for years now and I decided to finally join and place my 2 cents on here. I think that everyone American medical student and students in the US, in general, have become a product of the American culture. When I say this I am talking about elitism. It is embarassing when we possess elitism in our cars, foods, building and so on. Everyone's attitude is that it must be always be bigger and better in the US. That is a very wrong and uneducated idea to be thinking.

It is quite typical for the US culture to take things that belong to other cultures, make it their own and then claim it as US property. Now the same thing is being done with the US medical education system.

I think everyone has forgotten medical history, like where Internal Medicine came from, which cam from Germany and modern day medicine was being forged in the Middle East and South Asia. America was not even born and most of Europe were still running away from demons, which it was beleif was the cause of all modern day illnesses. This was America back in the day. The IMG-Division of the American Medical Association had released a great article that talked about the history of medicine in the USA. During the 1800's most other countries were far past the standards of the US. It was a joke back in the day! We borrowed all this information and brought it back to the US. Individuals back in the 1800's were going to Germany and other nations to build their medical knowledge and to bring back the knowledge to the US.

Now bring it back to 2011, we now as Americans shun and put down the students of those same countries who want to bring their great knowledge to the US and practice here. I think it's an insult to the rest of the world.

It's simple!!! As long as the medical students, from any nations, passes those USMLE examinations, you are a medical doctor here in the US. It is like our society to create more barriers because our society cannot stand other nations coming here and impeding on their society. It is a form of elitism and racism, PERIOD!

Another report was passed that showed exact statistics showing that non-US educated, true IMG doctors had a much lower mortality rate than US trained physicians! What is the explanation in that?!?!?

To say that, a foriegn trained doctors education is far less superior is stupid and it is true that IMG physicians are being discriminated against from great residencies and employment just because they were not trained in the US despite the fact they passed the USMLE examinations and everything was verified by the ECFMG. I have done all the research possible about this and I think more lobbying needs to be done in order to fight for more rights for IMG physicians.

I myself was born and raised in the US and I hold 3 degrees all in the US. I have been a good student, but I also considered SGU School of Medicine since I know a ton of attending physicians who went there and practicing successfully without a major problem. There are some physicians I am sure who have had problems, but to create problems because someone was not trained in the US is ludicrous.

How many physicians can anyone name off the top of their head that deals with physicians who were in trouble with the law? Guess what? All the major cases were against American-born, American-trained medical doctors. There was Dr. Jack Kevorkian and Dr. Conrad Murphy and doctors who committ some forms of legalized abortion and even one pediatrician who was found guilty of child molestation. These are just ethical issues, however if all American medical doctors are so good, then why are they required to carry medical malpractice insurance? They have to be real good, right? Why would they need insurance? They need them because they could make mistakes.

It is true that about 25% of all practicing physicians are foriegn and they could be from any country. All my physcians were foreign-trained and they are fantastic! Could not even tell the difference in their training.

So let's all have a little respect for the ALL medical doctors period!
 
A rare worthy bump of a 2 year old thread!
 
Inception8888 said:
Another report was passed that showed exact statistics showing that non-US educated, true IMG doctors had a much lower mortality rate than US trained physicians! What is the explanation in that?!?!?
Click to expand...

Small correction. I would like to see the link to the study you are referring to. There are numerous (n>10) studies in the last 10 years that nearly all say this: Foreign-born foreign trained FMG > American Grad > US IMG. Perhaps you saw a different article, but the trend that has been showing up in all the recent studies have been that while all three make qualified doctors the FMGs are lightyears beyond anyone else and the US IMGs have, as a group, some lingering deficiencies that show up in their outcomes.
 
ravvo99 said:
Small correction. I would like to see the link to the study you are referring to. There are numerous (n>10) studies in the last 10 years that nearly all say this: Foreign-born foreign trained FMG > American Grad > US IMG. Perhaps you saw a different article, but the trend that has been showing up in all the recent studies have been that while all three make qualified doctors the FMGs are lightyears beyond anyone else and the US IMGs have, as a group, some lingering deficiencies that show up in their outcomes.
Click to expand...

If those articles are correct about fmgs, it's profound their match rate was low 40s vs. 50 for imgs. It shows the real discrimination they face if in practice they outperform us amgs.
 
There are several problems with this line of thought.

First, I'd love to see the studies that show that FMG's "far outperform" US grads. The last study commented on here on SDN showed that there was a non-significant difference between FMG's and US Grads (the FMG's were "better" but not significantly so) and US IMG's were slightly worse. The difference was very slight.

Second, let's not forget what we are comparing here. Since the US grad match rate is 93% and then many US grads scramble into openings, let's assume that the US grad rate in residency is close to 100%. These studies would then say that the performance of US grads as a whole is equivalent to the top 40% of IMG's who get spots. Generalizing and suggesting that the performance of these top 40% would be equivalent to those in the bottom 60% seems unlikely.

Third, people seem to throw around the word "discrimination" quite a bit. Discrimination is the illegal use of some applicant characteristic to make hiring decisions. Using the school of graduation as a characteristic is completely acceptable and legal. There is nothing discriminatory about it. Look at it this way -- let's say a student went to a college where the average GPA is a 3.8 and gets a 3.7 GPA, and then argues that they should get into medical school because their GPA is higher than yours. You'd be livid, and feel that looking at a GPA without considering where it is from is ridiculous. Same thing here. I'm not suggesting that international schools are easier than US schools, or necessarily worse. But they might be, and hence I might decide to rank those applicants lower.

And the argument that IMG's have "passed the USMLE" and that their school is ECFMG certified and so I should treat them on par is laughable. We all know that USMLE scores are one part of an application, and that students in the lower end of the pass range tend to struggle in residency. Plus, ECFMG certification really means almost nothing -- there are no inspections, few minimum requirements, etc. In a poorly regulated country, almost anyone can get their school ECFMG certified.

Even the top carib schools are starting to slip, IMHO. I have some really good carib grads in my program. They are some of my best residents, and I am proud of their accomplishments. I am happy to call them colleagues and get their careers launched. However, in discussing their clinical experiences as students with them, I really worry that the clinical education being delivered by these schools is really suboptimal in many respects.
 
aProgDirector said:
Third, people seem to throw around the word "discrimination" quite a bit. Discrimination is the illegal use of some applicant characteristic to make hiring decisions. Using the school of graduation as a characteristic is completely acceptable and legal. There is nothing discriminatory about it. Look at it this way -- let's say a student went to a college where the average GPA is a 3.8 and gets a 3.7 GPA, and then argues that they should get into medical school because their GPA is higher than yours. You'd be livid, and feel that looking at a GPA without considering where it is from is ridiculous. Same thing here. I'm not suggesting that international schools are easier than US schools, or necessarily worse. But they might be, and hence I might decide to rank those applicants lower.
Click to expand...

I think the word "discrimination" is used in its true sense here, not in its "human resources" terms. Discrimination would be prejudice or unfair treatment of an applicant, based on not having fully understood the nuances of his or her educational background.

When a program director chooses to rank a Caribbean graduate who is more competent and on paper has better stats (ie. US resident, US research, US letters of recommendation, US performance on rotations, basic sciences grades, USMLE scores, interview) than the US graduate, they are choosing to discriminate based on a stereotypical assessment of the location of their school and its standards. This in my opinion is unfair, but not illegal. It points to a program that is not interested in hiring the best candidates for the job.

However unfairness is the story of the game and where you went to school is always a big factor in the job that you end up landing. In this case, Caribbean graduates from the respectable Caribbean schools go above and beyond to prove to US programs that they have leveled the playing field by doing well on their standardized exams, US rotations, research, etc. This in my opinion is enough and having spent 18-24 months of your basic sciences abroad should not be an important factor in the selection process.

In general, I think most program directors understand this and in majority of cases the US graduate would land a residency position over the Caribbean graduate only because the US grad has better stats overall. Anything beyond this is equivalent to discrimination however you want to call it.
 
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