How good are Caribbean medical schools compared to US med schools?

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Can anyone give me anykind of information about the schools and the standard of medical school education in the caribbean. Studying outside united states, will it affect the matching for residency.....any info is appreciated. I am thinking about caribbean med schools as i am an international student residing in US. For foreign students, getting into medical schools in US is very tough as the schools require citizen ship or permanent residency.

Please give me any info abt caribbean schools and if possible the best schools to apply and things to look for in the schools.

Thank you for your time

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Can anyone give me anykind of information about the schools and the standard of medical school education in the caribbean. Studying outside united states, will it affect the matching for residency.....any info is appreciated. I am thinking about caribbean med schools as i am an international student residing in US. For foreign students, getting into medical schools in US is very tough as the schools require citizen ship or permanent residency.

Please give me any info abt caribbean schools and if possible the best schools to apply and things to look for in the schools.

Thank you for your time

Generally speaking, the first two years of medical school are self-study. Since most Carribean medical schools send their students to hospitals in the United States for clinical rotations, I don't see how it matters where you go to medical school unless you think you get better clinical training at one particular hospital over another.

And I don't think it's true that you get better clinical training at a prestigious academic medical center than at somewhere less well known.

However, attending a Carribean school, all other things being equal, will definitely have a negative effect on your ability to match into competitive programs and specialties as the perception of many program directors is that people go to the Carribean who didn't have the grades to get into American medical schools. Since you are an IMG you have that working against you too. On the other hand I believe Ross, as an example, has a pretty good reputation and I know three graduates who matched into Emergency Medicine which is somewhat competative.
 
as the perception of many program directors is that people go to the Carribean who didn't have the grades to get into American medical schools.

I don't think it's really an issue of "perception". The offshore med schools attended by US citizens were founded precisely to market to students who didn't make the grade for US schools. It is a cottage industry, and many even market themselves as "second chance" paths into medicine.
That being said, the folks who actually make it through probably made the most of their chances and turned things around, as there is enormous attrition at all those schools.
 
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Can anyone give me anykind of information about the schools and the standard of medical school education in the caribbean. Studying outside united states, will it affect the matching for residency.....any info is appreciated. I am thinking about caribbean med schools as i am an international student residing in US. For foreign students, getting into medical schools in US is very tough as the schools require citizen ship or permanent residency.

Please give me any info abt caribbean schools and if possible the best schools to apply and things to look for in the schools.

Thank you for your time

There are MANY schools that will accept current F1 status students at a US university. You just have to find them. Plenty of Canadians and foreigners in my class and in my interview groups.

Caribbean schools should be your absolute last option.
 
caribbean schools are fine in terms of training. but it is true that you will not be able to match into the more comp. residencies. ortho,derm,plastics,uro, rads, and rad onc would be pretty much out of the question. if you're fine with that then i would go. you still get to be a physician.

tm
 
Wow, thats good to hear. There are many students on F1 visa in many US universities,say in computers, engineering research etc... but are there a lot in Medical schools. Med schools requirements are different than other fields. Please let me know....
 
caribbean schools are fine in terms of training. but it is true that you will not be able to match into the more comp. residencies. ortho,derm,plastics,uro, rads, and rad onc would be pretty much out of the question. if you're fine with that then i would go. you still get to be a physician.

tm

what if i want to be a Neurologist, is it hard to get into residency. How can foreign nationals get into residency programs in cardiology, Anaesthesiology, oncology, radiology etc......I have 3 years of work experience in a hospital, there are more than 25% of the doctors (IMG's), i mean different specialities...... if its that competetive to get into residency.....how are they making it happen.....am i missing some thing here......
 
Generally speaking, the first two years of medical school are self-study. Since most Carribean medical schools send their students to hospitals in the United States for clinical rotations, I don't see how it matters where you go to medical school unless you think you get better clinical training at one particular hospital over another.

And I don't think it's true that you get better clinical training at a prestigious academic medical center than at somewhere less well known.

However, attending a Carribean school, all other things being equal, will definitely have a negative effect on your ability to match into competitive programs and specialties as the perception of many program directors is that people go to the Carribean who didn't have the grades to get into American medical schools. Since you are an IMG you have that working against you too. On the other hand I believe Ross, as an example, has a pretty good reputation and I know three graduates who matched into Emergency Medicine which is somewhat competative.

That helps, have you heard about SABA university.....any info on that. i heard ROSS has doubled the tuition fees in the last few years.....almost $18000 per semister......isnt that expensive.
 
what if i want to be a Neurologist, is it hard to get into residency. How can foreign nationals get into residency programs in cardiology, Anaesthesiology, oncology, radiology etc......I have 3 years of work experience in a hospital, there are more than 25% of the doctors (IMG's), i mean different specialities...... if its that competetive to get into residency.....how are they making it happen.....am i missing some thing here......

i will break this down by question.

1. neurology: neurology is not considered competitive. you would definitely be able to get a neuro residency. neuro surgery on the other hand is extremely competitive.
2. cardiology and oncology are not residencies, they are fellowships you could do after an internal medicine residency. internal medicine is not competitive and you could match into it from a caribbean school.
3. anasthesia is not very competitive at the moment, hence the amount of fmg/img
4. radiology is currently very competitive and it would be hard to get a rads spot from a caribbean medical school.

the reason there are many fmg/img in some residencies that are competitive is that these fields have not always been so hard to get into. medicare coding constantly changes, money being made constantly changes, work hours constantly change, these things all contribute to what is competitive at the moment and what is not.

tm
 
There are MANY schools that will accept current F1 status students at a US university. You just have to find them. Plenty of Canadians and foreigners in my class and in my interview groups.

Caribbean schools should be your absolute last option.
I'll anectdotally vouch for this as well. A few Canadians ended up in my class as well.

From what I've heard here, and from looking at more recent Match data, the carribean option places significant hurdles in your way later in your career if you want a US residency.
 
i will break this down by question.

1. neurology: neurology is not considered competitive. you would definitely be able to get a neuro residency. neuro surgery on the other hand is extremely competitive.
2. cardiology and oncology are not residencies, they are fellowships you could do after an internal medicine residency. internal medicine is not competitive and you could match into it from a caribbean school.
3. anasthesia is not very competitive at the moment, hence the amount of fmg/img
4. radiology is currently very competitive and it would be hard to get a rads spot from a caribbean medical school.

the reason there are many fmg/img in some residencies that are competitive is that these fields have not always been so hard to get into. medicare coding constantly changes, money being made constantly changes, work hours constantly change, these things all contribute to what is competitive at the moment and what is not.

tm

Very good information, Thank you
 
i will break this down by question.

1. neurology: neurology is not considered competitive. you would definitely be able to get a neuro residency. neuro surgery on the other hand is extremely competitive.
2. cardiology and oncology are not residencies, they are fellowships you could do after an internal medicine residency. internal medicine is not competitive and you could match into it from a caribbean school.
3. anasthesia is not very competitive at the moment, hence the amount of fmg/img
4. radiology is currently very competitive and it would be hard to get a rads spot from a caribbean medical school.

the reason there are many fmg/img in some residencies that are competitive is that these fields have not always been so hard to get into. medicare coding constantly changes, money being made constantly changes, work hours constantly change, these things all contribute to what is competitive at the moment and what is not.

tm


I know a Ross graduate who just prematched into a radiology residency in NY. And its only been a week since ERAS opened!!!
 
I know a Ross graduate who just prematched into a radiology residency in NY. And its only been a week since ERAS opened!!!

good for him/her. the fact is that every one of him/her that matches there will be thousands that don't. statistics do not lie. at the same time that doesn't mean you should change your dreams if you aren't in a US medical school.

tm
 
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I am currently a PGY-2 resident that has worked alongside residents from all sorts of foreign med schools (caribbean and other, such as india or pakistan).

The main thing I can tell you is that there is a HUGE difference between the schools. Some have good basic science training and assign you to decent teaching hospitals for clinicals (St. George, Ross, SABA), whereas some are just self-study and pawn you off on community docs for lousy,worthless rotations (there is one called something like "International Univ of HEalth Science" or such which is basically an internet med school. I was assigned a "MS IV" med student from there during my internship and she knew next to nothing. It scared me hearing how little the school actually does for her).
 
I am currently a PGY-2 resident that has worked alongside residents from all sorts of foreign med schools (caribbean and other, such as india or pakistan).

The main thing I can tell you is that there is a HUGE difference between the schools. Some have good basic science training and assign you to decent teaching hospitals for clinicals (St. George, Ross, SABA), whereas some are just self-study and pawn you off on community docs for lousy,worthless rotations (there is one called something like "International Univ of HEalth Science" or such which is basically an internet med school. I was assigned a "MS IV" med student from there during my internship and she knew next to nothing. It scared me hearing how little the school actually does for her).

I am glad you are aware of the caliber of different foreign schools. Hopefully the PD's will also realize the same....when looking through the ERAS apps....
 
I have to also concur with the above posts saying that the carribbean should be looked at with much caution. Here are some helpful links that may help you with this decision

1) This is a report presented the the NAAHP (National Association of Advisors for the Health Professions ) reviewing the quality of education received and success of US students who chose to attend carribbean universities. One of the most interesting statistics that it shows is that many students chose the carribbean because they thought they would not be competitive and so never tried applying to a US school. In summary their recommendation is that the carribbean is not recommended.

http://www.naahp.org/resources_ForeignMed_articleflat.htm

2) This is the USMLE data. While several people have indicated that the education received at these institutions is comparable to the US programs. The statistics show this to not be the case. The report from the NAAHP also found that the US citizens at foreign schools had a lower pass rate than non-US citizens at foreign schools (42% vs 59%) respectively.

http://www.nbme.org/annualreport/2004/usmle.htm

Given the fact that the pass rate for USMLE is so low I would seriously question anyone who implies that the education received at carribbean medical schools is near the same level of US programs. I would argue that it is much lower.

I have several friends in carribbean programs and so I am not without respect to their choices. However, sentimentality should never trump pragmatism and scientific methods when giving serious assessments/opinions.
 
I also might add in case some of you have missed the point:

No one is comparing the quality of individual students in this discussion (that is a whole other "fun" topic for another day). I am not comparing the worth of human beings. We are talking about programs/systems and which has better value. As with any purchase you are paying the money and in the end you should expect results (get what you pay for).
 
I have to also concur with the above posts saying that the carribbean should be looked at with much caution. Here are some helpful links that may help you with this decision

1) This is a report presented the the NAAHP (National Association of Advisors for the Health Professions ) reviewing the quality of education received and success of US students who chose to attend carribbean universities. One of the most interesting statistics that it shows is that many students chose the carribbean because they thought they would not be competitive and so never tried applying to a US school. In summary their recommendation is that the carribbean is not recommended.

http://www.naahp.org/resources_ForeignMed_articleflat.htm

2) This is the USMLE data. While several people have indicated that the education received at these institutions is comparable to the US programs. The statistics show this to not be the case. The report from the NAAHP also found that the US citizens at foreign schools had a lower pass rate than non-US citizens at foreign schools (42% vs 59%) respectively.

http://www.nbme.org/annualreport/2004/usmle.htm

Given the fact that the pass rate for USMLE is so low I would seriously question anyone who implies that the education received at carribbean medical schools is near the same level of US programs. I would argue that it is much lower.

I have several friends in carribbean programs and so I am not without respect to their choices. However, sentimentality should never trump pragmatism and scientific methods when giving serious assessments/opinions.

Dont mislead! You are quoting pass rates...of repeat test takers not first time test takers.....

Your sources are excellent but your interpretation is confounding!
 
I must respectfully submit to the above poster that you may not have read the post nor the links closely enough. As this is the only reason I can conclude that you feel I am misleading people.

The numbers I gave are listed from the 2002 report issued not from the NBME but from the ECFMG (The Educational Commission for Foreign Medical Graduates). They listed in the report (and as is correctly cited in the NAAHP report) the 42% and 59%.

The number that you are referring to about repeat test takers is also coincidentally, 42%. However that number is from the 2004 NBME score reporting. Not the the ones mentioned in the paragraph above. I know that it can be easy, when there are two similar numbers, to be confused. What should be noted about the 2004 NBME report is that it does not distiguish between US and non-US citizens coming from foreign schools when it reports the USMLE pass rates. So what can be said, taking the two articles together as a whole, is that the Non-US citizen pass rate is high enough to help overcome the deficit created by US citizen testers.

So no, take a deep breath, and realize that I am not misleading anyone. It seems that you have misread the information provided.

PS - The (ECFMG) is the body that certifies candidates who complete their medical education in other countries as eligible to apply for Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) accredited residency programs in the United States.
 
I must respectfully submit to the above poster that you may not have read the post nor the links closely enough. As this is the only reason I can conclude that you feel I am misleading people.

The numbers I gave are listed from the 2002 report issued not from the NBME but from the ECFMG (The Educational Commission for Foreign Medical Graduates). They listed in the report (and as is correctly cited in the NAAHP report) the 42% and 59%.

The number that you are referring to about repeat test takers is also coincidentally, 42%. However that number is from the 2004 NBME score reporting. Not the the ones mentioned in the paragraph above. I know that it can be easy, when there are two similar numbers, to be confused. What should be noted about the 2004 NBME report is that it does not distiguish between US and non-US citizens coming from foreign schools when it reports the USMLE pass rates. So what can be said, taking the two articles together as a whole, is that the Non-US citizen pass rate is high enough to help overcome the deficit created by US citizen testers.

So no, take a deep breath, and realize that I am not misleading anyone. It seems that you have misread the information provided.

PS - The (ECFMG) is the body that certifies candidates who complete their medical education in other countries as eligible to apply for Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) accredited residency programs in the United States.

I am assuming the data collected in the research in 2004 is correct.

On the official website no comparision data is available pertaining to us citizen vs. non-US citizen test pass rates:

There are numerous tables...let me know if you see your quoted data anywhere..

http://www.usmle.org/scores/scores.htm
 
The quoted data is from the FIRST LINK. NOT THE USMLE LINK!

The report's official listing is

The Advisor, Vol. 24, 1, pp. 36-41

The link to the NAAHP article is

http://www.naahp.org/resources_ForeignMed_articleflat.htm

The numbers are in paragraph 5 lines 11-13

The numbers (42% and 59%) as referenced from the article are from the ECFMG's 2002 Annual report

The link is

http://www.ecfmg.org/annuals/2002/certmse.html#ex1

The actual numbers are in EXHIBIT 1

This is a graph of all non-US trained people who took step 1 and step 2. It then goes further to break it up into nationalities. Read this it may help.

Do I get some sort of library research fee for this reply?

Remember foreign graduates (except canadians) do not register for the USMLE through the NBME they do it through the ECFMG
 
The quoted data is from the FIRST LINK. NOT THE USMLE LINK!

The report's official listing is

The Advisor, Vol. 24, 1, pp. 36-41

The link to the NAAHP article is

http://www.naahp.org/resources_ForeignMed_articleflat.htm

The numbers are in paragraph 5 lines 11-13

The numbers (42% and 59%) as referenced from the article are from the ECFMG's 2002 Annual report

The link is

http://www.ecfmg.org/annuals/2002/certmse.html#ex1

The actual numbers are in EXHIBIT 1

This is a graph of all non-US trained people who took step 1 and step 2. It then goes further to break it up into nationalities. Read this it may help.

Do I get some sort of library research fee for this reply?

Remember foreign graduates (except canadians) do not register for the USMLE through the NBME they do it through the ECFMG

Thanks! It is very interesting... I wish they gave us the current stats....
 
For what its worth I had a Psych intern doing her medicine prelims on my team during my IM rotation who went to a Caribbean school and she was fantastic. n=1 but I was impressed--great doctors can come out of any school.
 
Thank you very much for your gracious response. It is unlike me to use the CAPS please understand I do that for emphasis not anger. And yes, I too found this to be quite an interesting set of statistics. More interesting is the recent push by the ECFMG to actually post data and evaluate individual schools.
 
I go to St. George's University and have been very impressed with the quality of the school and the education. The reason Carib schools get a bad rap is because there are some really bad ones out there, but I believe that students who go to SGU (and Ross) are well-prepared and get very good residencies. This year we had a dermatology match and a neurosurgery match. We just had an alumni speaker visit who did radiation oncology at Johns Hopkins. Here is our match list for this year:
http://www.sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.nsf/home/2006PostgraduateResidencyAppointments.htm

Also, although a previous poster talked about very low board passing rates, again, this incorporates all the terrible foreign schools out there. St. George's has a eight year average pass rate of 90% for first-time USMLE Step I examinees, virtually equivalent to the US pass rate on this examination, in fact surpassing the US pass rate in the year 2000.

Let me know if I can answer any more questions for you!
 
yeah the intern I'm thinking of went to St. George I believe. From what I've heard I wouldn't go anywhere but St. George or Ross.
 
i will break this down by question.

1. neurology: neurology is not considered competitive. you would definitely be able to get a neuro residency. neuro surgery on the other hand is extremely competitive.
2. cardiology and oncology are not residencies, they are fellowships you could do after an internal medicine residency. internal medicine is not competitive and you could match into it from a caribbean school.
3. anasthesia is not very competitive at the moment, hence the amount of fmg/img
4. radiology is currently very competitive and it would be hard to get a rads spot from a caribbean medical school.

the reason there are many fmg/img in some residencies that are competitive is that these fields have not always been so hard to get into. medicare coding constantly changes, money being made constantly changes, work hours constantly change, these things all contribute to what is competitive at the moment and what is not.

tm

This advice is all great but one thing that is incorrect is that Anesthesia is not competitive. Last years match had only 3 unfilled spots. This year stand to be one of the most competitive ever. So just a little correction.
 
I go to St. George's University and have been very impressed with the quality of the school and the education. The reason Carib schools get a bad rap is because there are some really bad ones out there, but I believe that students who go to SGU (and Ross) are well-prepared and get very good residencies. This year we had a dermatology match and a neurosurgery match. We just had an alumni speaker visit who did radiation oncology at Johns Hopkins. Here is our match list for this year:
http://www.sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.nsf/home/2006PostgraduateResidencyAppointments.htm

Also, although a previous poster talked about very low board passing rates, again, this incorporates all the terrible foreign schools out there. St. George's has a eight year average pass rate of 90% for first-time USMLE Step I examinees, virtually equivalent to the US pass rate on this examination, in fact surpassing the US pass rate in the year 2000.

Let me know if I can answer any more questions for you!

Actually the USMLE Step I pass rate of 93% was for the SGU Class of 2000, so it was taken in 1998. SGU trailed off after this year with pass rates between 89-92%.

Steve Lobel, MD
SGU Class of 2000
Asst Program Director
Emory Pain Medicine Fellowship
Georgia Pain Physicians

BTW, I am training an SGU graduate currently. As well UK, Mayo, PCOM, and LSU.
 
I have to also concur with the above posts saying that the carribbean should be looked at with much caution. Here are some helpful links that may help you with this decision


I have several friends in carribbean programs and so I am not without respect to their choices. However, sentimentality should never trump pragmatism and scientific methods when giving serious assessments/opinions.

The bolded part always bugs me! How can you know first hand what it is like to be at a Caribbean school cause you have friends there? I have friends in US schools but do not attend the school myself. So All I can do is go by hear say like you. That is not facts at all. That is perception. Also I agree the pass stats are skewed, In fact I know of a good many Caribbean grads who are in very very good residencies, how do they get there if not becuase they are qualified?:confused:
 
Oldpro, as I said before in an earlier post (about people missing the point), this is not a discussion about the worth or quality of individual students. Nor whether or not one student going to one school is better than another student. Without a doubt there are bright people going to all kinds of different schools.

The point of the discussion was what is the quality of the education received by students at carribbean schools. Just as when one goes to by a car they compare one car company to the other and decide which is going to give them the most worth for their money. Medical school is a significant investment of time and money. The OP just wants to make an informed decision. As the data shows many, NOT ALL, US citizens attending foreign schools are not getting their money's worth in regards to being prepared for step 1. Some of this is due may be the failure of the student, some of it may be the failure of the school. The data I provided is from the VERY organization that represents IMG's. If they were to skew the data don't you think that they would do it in their students' favor?

With certainty there are a few schools who's quality is very good (some have made mention of St. George) but there are many others that are not. In fact, the ECFMG report above mentions several instances where unscrupulous schools have taken students' money and skipped town. You do not run into those issues in the US thanks to the LCME and AAMC.

PLease do not insult me nor the OP by turning this into a character debate. As I said I have many friends attending carribbean schools, i never suggested that I have first hand knowledge but, I can still respect that they are intellegent people and trust that the decisions they have made are the right ones, my opinions aside. However, I would not recommend to US students to go that route without THOROUGHLY reviewing the pro's and con's of such a decision and being sure that your good money will be spent wisely and that they will receive all that they have been promised.

I might suggest that you read the ECFMG 2002 report in its entirety. I think that it is excellently worded and quite a thoughtful study with many ideas to standardize the training received at the various schools.
 
Juse my $.02, I go to a great state school, and have heard all positive things about Carribean medical school graduates. That's the word on the grapevine. The residency match hyperlink posted above shows a consistent placement in excellent programs. lf:)
 
Oldpro,
PLease do not insult me nor the OP by turning this into a character debate. As I said I have many friends attending carribbean schools, i never suggested that I have first hand knowledge but, I can still respect that they are intellegent people and trust that the decisions they have made are the right ones, my opinions aside. However, I would not recommend to US students to go that route without THOROUGHLY reviewing the pro's and con's of such a decision and being sure that your good money will be spent wisely and that they will receive all that they have been promised.

I might suggest that you read the ECFMG 2002 report in its entirety. I think that it is excellently worded and quite a thoughtful study with many ideas to standardize the training received at the various schools.

1. I'm in a Caribbean school and you are not and you are posting opinion on caribbean schools, so I should be able to debate you on this issue without you throwing out the "Insult card" "your not invited to post card" Many on this site do this and try to out argue others instead of excahnge of info.

2. the 2002 data is 4 years old, and it is skewed. It does not show a complete picture.

3. I never tell anyone that the Caribbean is as good as staying in the US. I could not for many reasons (one being age).

4. Many US premeds and Medical students give a lot of crap on the net about the Caribbean and post false rants about the schools and some of the ones who fail out of the schools come on the net and post crap too, funny but the fail outs mean the system does work.

5. All my professors are MD's and PHDs (PHDs in the subject they teach) Last time I checked that was a good thing, but just as at any school there are good and bad professors.

6. Failure of students is more on the students and not the school, the school may accept students with lower GPA's Lower Mcat or no Mcat and they do not do well, shows that there is some worth to screening for higher stats, but accepting lower stats is why these schools are here in the first place, as a second chance.

7. I agree 1000% any one with lets just say: a gpa of 3.5 Mcat of 28 should persue a US school and not just be happy with a Caribbean school, and anyone who wants to still go to a caribbean school with decent stats should go to the AUC, ROSS and SGU, lastly SABA, schools like mine are okay but are below these schools in some areas as far as what those schools can offer.

8. Posting about how Caribbean schools are inferior is always going to attract people like me who go to them and people who want to flame the schools. Why is is so important to beat this to death and deny the fact that they may give an adequate education, may be a good education but I agree not excellent like stateside schools and probably never will.

9. So if a US medical student fails the USLME ( I know of at least three who has 3 times each in the last 2 years) and drops out of school then they got thier money's worth? I just don't follow your logic?

10. Finally name one school outside the USA that is LCME accredited (PR does not count).



My point to all this is you have missunderstood me, you qualify your post by saying you have friends in the Caribbean schools, You talk about inferior teaching, while I dissagree with that I feel from experience it is inferior students more than professors. I see them all the time posting and at my school. I think if you study your Arse off and go to class and study study anyone can gt through and pass and pass the USLME but it's hard work no matter the US or Caribbean.

And of course this is my opinion.
 
All you have to look at the Step 1 scores. I know Saba graduates are destroying the Step1, I personally know someone that wrote above 260. In fact I can't think or know of anyone that didnt pass the Step1 from Saba and look at the match list. Now there are some schools out there that do not prepare their students well and shouldn't be around. Schools like SGU, SABA and AUC are preparing their students well and it shows in the Steps. As one of my professors have said time and time again "show me the data".
 
Hi OldPro,

I know exactly what you're getting at with point number 10. and I'd like to politely remind you that Canadian Medical Schools are LCME accredited as well.
 
All you have to look at the Step 1 scores. I know Saba graduates are destroying the Step1, I personally know someone that wrote above 260. In fact I can't think or know of anyone that didnt pass the Step1 from Saba and look at the match list.

Glad to hear Saba students are doing so well.
 
All you have to look at the Step 1 scores.
Agreed. The 2nd highest score ever on Step 1 was scored by an AUC student, and the highest ever was scored by a Ross student. Go figure!
 
Agreed. The 2nd highest score ever on Step 1 was scored by an AUC student, and the highest ever was scored by a Ross student. Go figure!

Very funny! You made my night.
 
Very funny! You made my night.

Why so funny? If I was going to make up stories, I'd have said the highest score was from a student at my school, not Ross. I do stand corrected on one thing: the Ross student's score was the highest Step 2 score, not step 1.

Sure, some dummies go to the Caribbean, but to be honest, I expected there to be many more here than I've encountered. I've been quite surprised (and frankly, rather intimidated) by the number of super-smart and hardworking students here at AUC. It's a far more competitive field than I expected, and I can see several of my classmates completely smoking the boards.
 
People tend to forget that the big 4 are loaded with students that just missed acceptance to mainland schools. No doubt AUC and others are full of bright students.
 
2) This is the USMLE data. While several people have indicated that the education received at these institutions is comparable to the US programs. The statistics show this to not be the case. The report from the NAAHP also found that the US citizens at foreign schools had a lower pass rate than non-US citizens at foreign schools (42% vs 59%) respectively.

http://www.nbme.org/annualreport/2004/usmle.htm

To the poster of the above:

Given the fact that the pass rate for USMLE is so low I would seriously question anyone who implies that the education received at carribbean medical schools is near the same level of US programs. I would argue that it is much lower.

I have several friends in carribbean programs and so I am not without respect to their choices. However, sentimentality should never trump pragmatism and scientific methods when giving serious assessments/opinions.[/QUOTE]

I hardly think relating a large, heterogenous group of people, i.e. people from all foreign schools, and using the numbers from the sites you've listed above as an example shows a grasp of scientific method, let alone 'pragmatism'.

I went to SGU and my class had a 92% pass rate. PERIOD. All schools are not the same. Howard Univ. (what's their pass rate?) is not Harvard, nor is SUNY Downstate (pass rate?) the Univ. of Michigan. There are apporoximately 17,000 available seats in US medical schools, and perhaps 30,000 applicants. There is no way to say that only those 17,000 are the one and only perfectly qualified students to be picked. There are maybe 5,000 that simply could not be picked, no more than simply being at the wrong end of the flip of a coin.

My class had 250 students. 20 of them I wouldn't let near my family, nor anyone else. I rotated in NYC with SUNY and Cornell students, several of which I wouldn't let near my family pet. The top 100 in my class were incredibly smart and had simply found a way to be lost in the mix, no fault of their application, their grades, or their MCAT scores. The next 75 had some event, or blip in their past that made them slip...a bad grade freshman year, an illness, or some other inane thing that kept them from being shiny enough to catch the admission committee's attention. I guarantee that if the US schools admitted the number of physicians this country truly needs most of my class would have been US students.

I can't speak for any other schools, US or Caribbean, only for St. George's. We recieved a stellar 2 years of basic science. We were challenged to do well or go the hell home. There's no magic to learning the basic sciences. You get fed the material and you regurgitate it appropriately. You learn to interact clinically and integrate the things you've learned. We had clear instruction by professors who've been doing it for many years, mostly in the US. We had an excellent set of hospitals in the US that made it easy to stay at one hospital for two years, getting to know clincal faculty and making good contacts and get excellent letters of recommendation. My class did extremely well in the match, with surgery, emergency medicine, and radiology residencies.

Some Caribbean schools may be shams, others simply inferior with inferior students I'm sure. But to group all together based on the statistics used by this poster shows that bias is usually based upon ignorance, ignorance perhaps a result of something more ominous in someone who we should perhaps assume is smart enough to either be in medical school or already finished.
 
2) This is the USMLE data. While several people have indicated that the education received at these institutions is comparable to the US programs. The statistics show this to not be the case. The report from the NAAHP also found that the US citizens at foreign schools had a lower pass rate than non-US citizens at foreign schools (42% vs 59%) respectively.

http://www.nbme.org/annualreport/2004/usmle.htm

To the poster of the above:

Given the fact that the pass rate for USMLE is so low I would seriously question anyone who implies that the education received at carribbean medical schools is near the same level of US programs. I would argue that it is much lower.

SO...................................All Foriegn Grads went to Caribbean schools? WOW no one went to Europe, Asia, UK, Irish, Middle eastern, African, Australian school, every FMG is from the Caribbean??? What logic! :luck:
 
SO...................................All Foriegn Grads went to Caribbean schools? WOW no one went to Europe, Asia, UK, Irish, Middle eastern, African, Australian school, every FMG is from the Caribbean??? What logic! :luck:

Just to be clear. I didn't get the quote part right in my reply. I was replying to 'inshanesworld' post.

You're absolutely correct, and follow my thoughts precisely, that grouping ALL foreign schools is as absurd as grouping ALL U.S. schools.
 
Listen carefully. There is NO difference especially in the basic science curriculum. Naturally there are different ways different schools (US and foreign) present the material which depends on the changing relevency as deemed by the medical school in any geographic location.
The only issue is that US medical guild looks down upon FMGs. They want to keep up the status and prestige of this guild and artifically curb uncontrolled growth.
For example, a new med school in US was formed after a long pause, namely Lerner Med School at the Clev Clinic. I am sure you know of this.
But it is not even listed OFICIALLY as a independent medical school but rather as a part of Case Western reserve Univ. School of Medicine. Infact the basic scinece classes for the Lerner students are held at Case Western Med School.
In my opinion, if you cannot get into a US medical school, then go to the three top carribean med schools ( st georges, Ross, AUC). Study hard as hell and take your clinics in US hospitals and you will do fine.

Residency positions are difficult in some areas like surg spec, opth, ortho, derm, etc. but not impossible esp in lower level hospitals.

So just do it. Dont worry about anything other than studying hard.
S
 
In my opinion, if you cannot get into a US medical school, then go to the three top carribean med schools ( st georges, Ross, AUC). Study hard as hell and take your clinics in US hospitals and you will do fine.


Ummm what about Saba? Who has higher USMLE step 1 scores of the 4? There you go. I'm not trying to be a cheerleader for Saba but how can you not include us in the mix?
 
Hmmm ok saba also. Happy?
I just dont know that much about it.
Stats are irrelevant when it comes to an individual. There are too many ways to massage primary data.
What is important is how well you study.
Certain cohorts of us med school students also have abysmal passing percentages regardless of their ivy league status or the latest silly nuance of
the curriculum.
The only criteria is how hard you study and to try to get into board approved clerkships in 3rd and 4th year.
S
 
[..........
 
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Anecdotes are useless.

What is the probability of uncertainty for a Carib grad matching in radiology?

Do not go to the Carib expecting anything but FM or IM. If you do, then you are going to be disappointed. Might you score rads? Maybe. Should you expect it. No.
 
Anecdotes are useless.

What is the probability of uncertainty for a Carib grad matching in radiology?

Cousin Bob used to work with a woman that knew someone's choir-mate that became a dermatologist and went to medical school somewhere down by Puerto Rico should not be considered a ringing endorsement of the probability of matching derm out of, say Ross.

I agree with what you say.

But please dont compare Radiology with Derm..I think we all know that Derm is a whole different ball game, especially for FMGs.
 
SO...................................All Foriegn Grads went to Caribbean schools? WOW no one went to Europe, Asia, UK, Irish, Middle eastern, African, Australian school, every FMG is from the Caribbean??? What logic! :luck:

While your sarcasm is touching I really did not miss this point...
I just didn't think that I was going to have to hold everyone's hand as we walk through this. I expect that people will actually take the time to read the posted links and the reports attached to them.

As you can see from the reports that I posted the total number of US citizens taking step 1 in 2002 was 4100 and some change the number taking step 2 was 2500 (a bit smaller but not surprising based on the pass rate stats for step 1). Out of these the top five representing locations were Mexico (837) Dominica (821) Grenada (798) Netherlands Antilles (738) and Dominican Republic (398). This shows you that over half of the people taking step 1 and 2 in 2002 came from those locations. If you assume that those taking step 1 and 2 are equally distributed in the above numbers (not likely though given the dismal USMLE 1 pass rate) that means 54% of all test takers came from the above schools.

The pass rate for USMLE 1 for US students studying abroad is 44%!! This means that even if every single student going to a school other than those in Mexico or the Caribbean locales listed above failed we would still be at a 46% passing rate. So because that number is higher than 44% it means at least a few other students would have to fail to reach it. Of course we can assume that many more students fail than that and not all of those "thousands" of students going to Irish schools failed. Are you following or do you need to take a breath?....its ok this can be hard to understand if you let your emotions get the better of you and do not take the time to actual look at the numbers and interpret what they mean.

The US school pass rate on the other hand is 93% for first-time MD school takers. Out of 16703 students this means that 1170 failed. This number is smaller than the number of US students at foreign schools who failed Step 1 by nearly 900 students (2051 US students abroad failed Step 1 in 2002). I am sorry but these numbers are not invented. They come from reliable sources…if fact the very organization that represents the US students who study abroad. I mean for goodness sake you all mention like 3-4 schools that you say are quality. That can't possible represent a majority of foreign schools meaning the percentage of schools lacking quality is quite high. You really want to tell the OP any foreign school will do?!?

Another fun fact to chew on; notice that the percentage passing Step 2 goes up significantly. What causes this? One hypothesis is that so many failed step 1 that the Step 2 scores were likely to get better thanks to weeding. Another is that many US students studying in abroad are exposed to US teach styles and methods by virtue of the fact that they do their clerkships in the US; that somehow the US system takes over their education and they have a step up, so to speak. Which one is true? Who knows but it would be an interesting educational study to do some day.

Listen, if you are happy at your school where ever it is great…good damn for you. It is not like I will be on the wards someday and say "OMG!! Nurse take that scalpel out of that guys hand ‘cause he went to a foreign school!!" If you pass USMLE you deserve to be there just as much as I do. But I am not going to say to someone that the moon is made of cheese just ‘cause you want to believe it is true. With certainty there are some schools outside the US that are worth their salt. But with no governing body assuring universal standards you really are running a risk. The LCME goes to extreme lengths to assure that US education at all schools it up to muster and the USMLE passing rates show it. My advice to the OP is to really research carefully. Anecdotal evidence is stupid advice to follow. Like Bob the car salesman telling you he only buys Cadillacs. You will wish you would have checked out Edmunds.com first and as much as I love this site studentdoctor.net is not an Edmunds.
 
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