How do you gauge level of competitiveness of a programme?

[Messerschmitts]

Although psychiatry as a whole is in general not know for its competitiveness as a specialty, there are of course certain programmes that are very selective. How do I know which ones? I am hoping to match into a programme in one of the coastal areas of California, but I have very bad Step 1 and 2 scores. Thus I am looking at other parts of the country as backup. I am not interested in research or academic track, will probably just go into private practise. Thus location and quality of training are my main concerns. Big names are not. However, the situation is a bit complicated.

Here's the deal: let's say for example that Minneapolis is a city I'm willing to consider living in, if I can't match back into Cali. There are 2 programmes in that city. Now, I don't want to spend the money applying to both, if the best one in the city (which I am assuming is the the University of Minnesota programme) is fairly easy to match into. On the other hand, if UM is fairly competitive, then maybe I should apply to that other community programme as well.

My fear/theory is that if I only apply to the university programmes in a bunch of cities I want to live in, I'm going to end up nowhere. Thus I suspect a better strategy is picking a few cities I am considering, and applying to all available programmes in those cities, to include the less competitive community programmes. However, maybe I am overestimating the competitiveness of the university programmes in those cities? I don't know, I'm so confused, and maybe so are you. Please help out if you can.

So far I'm already up to 32 programmes, so I am trying not to run it up too much further.

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[jettavr6]

The first thing that I would recommend is to forget about Psychiatry not being as competitive. It may or may not be, however based on how things have gone in the last three years, the number of applicants is steadily increasing. Therefore, the more desirable programs and more desirable locations are going to be pretty damn competitive.

Strategy... Get a good personal statement done and apply to all the programs that you would like to attend. If you can arrange a rotation at the place that you want to attend, then you'll be in a much better position. Stress the positives rather than the negatives; stress passes not fails...

 

[OldPsychDoc]

The "best program" in a city might not necessarily be the one with the best "name", but rather the best program for YOU and your particular set of career goals. And much of that will likely only be clear to you after you have interviewed and met the residents and faculty at both programs...so if there is a location you're set on, you'd be best served to fully investigate all programs within reasonable distance of that location.

 

[honsano]

I was wondering how to gauge this myself. I am applying to programs this year and just want a good mixture between competitive vs semi vs non-competitive schools so I don't screw myself and end up scrambling.

Note, I have absolutely no evidence backing this up. I just think it may work in differentiating competitive programs from ones which may act as back up programs. My method is to check the current residents at the various programs. If you go to their home pages, they list the residents and where they went ot school. If they have a lot of FMGs then I'm guessing they aren't competitive. I would just think programs would prefer AMGs for a variety of reasons I don't really want to get into. I could totally be wrong on that though. I also look at how many of their own students tend to go there as well. If they seem to match about 50% of their own class i'm guessing it'll be tough getting in there. For one, they probably have a pretty good program and that is why they can convince a lot of their own medical studnents to do their residency in psychiatry there. Second is a bit more obvious, because they reduce spots available to students who aren't given preference because they know someone...the rest of us.

So yeah, those are two basic ways. Aside from that, I'd love to get an idea. The general consensus seems to be that you have the highly competitive and then a lot of gray. In that gray we are just to find the program that fits our specific traits the best. Good luck and hope I helped!

 

[psychotrope]

I was wondering how to gauge this myself. I am applying to programs this year and just want a good mixture between competitive vs semi vs non-competitive schools so I don't screw myself and end up scrambling.

Note, I have absolutely no evidence backing this up. I just think it may work in differentiating competitive programs from ones which may act as back up programs. My method is to check the current residents at the various programs. If you go to their home pages, they list the residents and where they went ot school. If they have a lot of FMGs then I'm guessing they aren't competitive. QUOTE]


1) The phrase "end up scrambling" last year had no value, because there were literally 1-3 slots that were actually available if you were categorical psych. So obviously even if you were a decent candidate, there were no slots to scramble into. Will this year be different? Who knows.....

2) I understand where you are coming from on the checking program pages for img's, but if I were an amg with a less than stellar application from a decent allopathic school(as I am), some of those programs actually have 6/6 img's or whatever for a reason. In that they love 245+ board scores and actually are fine taking img's over amg's with subpar scores or grades.......so maybe if you see a smaller program that seems to get a bunch of amg's, they actually *do* prefer amg's who may have a 193 or whatever over an img with lots of research and a 239.......thats a hypothesis of course, but I think it's a mistake to just look at a program with mainly img's and assume they are just dying to take any amg(even allopathic amgs) without any serious ethical issues or serious red flags.....

 

[TexasPhysician]

It can't be too hard to get an idea about a program's competitiveness.
If the school is on/near a coast - usually competitive (Stanford, UCLA, Duke)
If the school is central US - usually not as competitive
Bigger city with culture - more competitive
The more fellowships - usually the more competitive
University program - usually more competitive

Obviously there will be a few exceptions, but most people would prefer a university program in a cultural coastal city that offers fellowships.

 

[whopper]

There is no universally accept guide to gauge a psychiatry residency's competitiveness. Competitiveness is something medstudents seemed geared toward marking as a desirable aspect since they've gone through some ultra tough competition in their education process.

Competition & the quality of the program may not correlate well, though I would say that the more competitive programs are more likely are of higher quality. I would advise that instead of the competition mindset, you look more at the quality of the program as a whole.

There are several factors that could make a residency more competitive that have little if anything to do with the quality of the program such as the population density of the area, the general level of happiness of the area, the weather, etc. Several medstudents seriously consider factors such as whether or not they want to settle down in the area in choosing a residency.

 

[Messerschmitts]

There is no universally accept guide to gauge a psychiatry residency's competitiveness. Competitiveness is something medstudents seemed geared toward marking as a desirable aspect since they've gone through some ultra tough competition in their education process.

Competition & the quality of the program may not correlate well, though I would say that the more competitive programs are more likely are of higher quality. I would advise that instead of the competition mindset, you look more at the quality of the program as a whole.

There are several factors that could make a residency more competitive that have little if anything to do with the quality of the program such as the population density of the area, the general level of happiness of the area, the weather, etc. Several medstudents seriously consider factors such as whether or not they want to settle down in the area in choosing a residency.

Ha ha some of us are trying to avoid competition, not seek it out. We want to match.

 

[psychotrope]

There is no universally accept guide to gauge a psychiatry residency's competitiveness. Competitiveness is something medstudents seemed geared toward marking as a desirable aspect since they've gone through some ultra tough competition in their education process.

Competition & the quality of the program may not correlate well, though I would say that the more competitive programs are more likely are of higher quality. I would advise that instead of the competition mindset, you look more at the quality of the program as a whole.

There are several factors that could make a residency more competitive that have little if anything to do with the quality of the program such as the population density of the area, the general level of happiness of the area, the weather, etc. Several medstudents seriously consider factors such as whether or not they want to settle down in the area in choosing a residency.

an interesting question though- if a program in california has 24 slots and because they are in a desirable place in california they get excellent candidates(great evals, 235+ boards, research, aoa, etc) for most of those 6 slots/year......doesn't the quality of those 24 people *in the program* constitute one aspect of what makes a program good?

 

[Messerschmitts]

an interesting question though- if a program in california has 24 slots and because they are in a desirable place in california they get excellent candidates(great evals, 235+ boards, research, aoa, etc) for most of those 6 slots/year......doesn't the quality of those 24 people *in the program* constitute one aspect of what makes a program good?

Ha ha I love it, it sounds like one of those existential tree-falling-in-the-woods-does-it-make-a-sound kind of questions. Is competitiveness self-fulfilling, building on itself via positive feedback loop?

 

[billypilgrim37]

I posited a formula in a previous thread which I believe many have found to be reasonably accurate.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I posited a formula in a previous thread which I believe many have found to be reasonably accurate.

Hope MoM isn't eating cheetos right now...

 

[Doc Samson]

I posited a formula in a previous thread which I believe many have found to be reasonably accurate.

Is that the Jew/Protestant ratio in the program or in the city? If the former: just residents, just faculty, or the two totalled?

 

[whopper]

doesn't the quality of those 24 people *in the program* constitute one aspect of what makes a program good?

Oh yes, of course that would more likely make the program better. Like I said, if its more competitive, there is a higher likelihood that the program is good.

But IMHO the picture is bigger than that. If one were to gauge a program purely on competition, that would be the program with the lowest acceptance rate.....period. You are going to have programs with higher acceptance rates vs other programs where the overall quality is higher.

I figure programs in areas that people would want to settle would get more applicants, but does that necessarily mean the program is better? No.

I'm just saying its a little more gray than I think medstudents make it out to be. Of course several programs that are on the highest order of competition such as MGH are deservedly in the top, and have produced excellent psychiatrists. However when one is factoring in programs for application and the MATCH, the applicant isn't just going to apply to every single top program. Several will make their decision on several factors.

 

[billypilgrim37]

Is that the Jew/Protestant ratio in the program or in the city? If the former: just residents, just faculty, or the two totalled?

Ah, there should inevitably be some sort of composite sub-score which geometrically weights each of these.

My initial thought was of the general population in the city.

And the protestant sub-score would need some clarification as well. All the Lutherans running around the upper Midwest certainly lend a different flair than the fundies from where I grew up.

I would still consider significant validity in the raw score, however.

 

[nancysinatra]

And the protestant sub-score would need some clarification as well. All the Lutherans running around the upper Midwest certainly lend a different flair than the fundies from where I grew up.

Your scoring system should take into account that Lutherans are known to act quite self defeating when they want to, although actually this is just a subversive tactic. I have never seen this outside the Midwest, but non-Midwesterns (who will have no idea what I'm even talking about, probably) often take it for non-competitiveness.

 

[billypilgrim37]

The addended model accounted for 76% of the variance in program competitiveness, while the brief model accounted for 73% of the variance. The addended model did not defer significantly from the brief model when compared using a paired-test test (SPSS 17.0.1).

 

[Doc Samson]

The addended model accounted for 76% of the variance in program competitiveness, while the brief model accounted for 73% of the variance. The addended model did not defer significantly from the brief model when compared using a paired-test test (SPSS 17.0.1).

Where are you submitting? Academic Psychiatry?

 

[billypilgrim37]

Where are you submitting? Academic Psychiatry?

I actually went for Archives, but unfortunately it's being held up by a reviewer from UCLA, as apparently there is a heavy debate about whether the population of Orange County can be included in the calculation or not.

 

[Doc Samson]

If we can include suburbs, then by my calculations the BPCI indicates that the University of Miami is the most competitive program in the nation by an order of magnitude.

 

[silas2642]

Your scoring system should take into account that Lutherans are known to act quite self defeating when they want to, although actually this is just a subversive tactic. I have never seen this outside the Midwest, but non-Midwesterns (who will have no idea what I'm even talking about, probably) often take it for non-competitiveness.

Please people, can we keep this formula simple for us neurotic med students with sub-par board scores who are praying on our little knees to match near an ocean in the near future (i.e. Beantown). However, I somehow believe that his formula should take asians into account, as many of us are neither protestants nor jews and just believe in hardcore science and good sushi.