I am a second yr medical student and I have been thinking about general surgery more recently. I know it's early but still I was wondering if anyone could tell me more about the lifestyle - specifically: How is it for women? Are there any women friendly programs in New York City? How many nights would I be working? I planned to be married by then - so will I be able to have a child during residency? Thanks in advance for your help.
how bad is general surgery residency?
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Bad.
There are plenty of women in the gen surg residency at my school, but most of them (that I talked to anyways, which was about a dozen) were not married, and none of them had children. On the other hand, at least several of the men were married and had children.
There are plenty of women in the gen surg residency at my school, but most of them (that I talked to anyways, which was about a dozen) were not married, and none of them had children. On the other hand, at least several of the men were married and had children.
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The short answer, always, is it depends on the program.
To be sure the demands in a Gen surg residency are high, at not the least of that is due to the attitudes of the attendings on how training should be done.
If you're one of those people who have to go to the highest ranked, most prestigious program possible, there are probably going to be sacrifices above and beyond what is already expected in any residency. If you're simply looking to be well trained in an environment that is conducive for your well-being, those types of programs exist. If you're looking at the possibility of having kids while a resident, you're going to have to examine the programs for outward signs of that being acceptable (I don't know if surgery programs broadcast this like my peds programs did). You can always ask the residents questions like 'do any of you have kids?' (which sounds much more like innocent small talk than anything else) or 'is anyone pregnant?'. Simply hearing the residents talk about their families can be very revealing (as someone in the opposite situation as you, being male and very single, I was interested in finding the opposite type of group - where was I going to find the group that had the most fun).
Finally, as a second year, it's good that you're thinking about the possibilities, but don't forget you have third year to help you figure things out. Also, you may wish to consider some of the surgical sub-specialties that have the reputation of being more female friendly like ENT or Optho. I also think many women with interest in having surgical procedures in their practice choose OB/Gyn because it affords those opportunities.
To be sure the demands in a Gen surg residency are high, at not the least of that is due to the attitudes of the attendings on how training should be done.
If you're one of those people who have to go to the highest ranked, most prestigious program possible, there are probably going to be sacrifices above and beyond what is already expected in any residency. If you're simply looking to be well trained in an environment that is conducive for your well-being, those types of programs exist. If you're looking at the possibility of having kids while a resident, you're going to have to examine the programs for outward signs of that being acceptable (I don't know if surgery programs broadcast this like my peds programs did). You can always ask the residents questions like 'do any of you have kids?' (which sounds much more like innocent small talk than anything else) or 'is anyone pregnant?'. Simply hearing the residents talk about their families can be very revealing (as someone in the opposite situation as you, being male and very single, I was interested in finding the opposite type of group - where was I going to find the group that had the most fun).
Finally, as a second year, it's good that you're thinking about the possibilities, but don't forget you have third year to help you figure things out. Also, you may wish to consider some of the surgical sub-specialties that have the reputation of being more female friendly like ENT or Optho. I also think many women with interest in having surgical procedures in their practice choose OB/Gyn because it affords those opportunities.
General surgery residency is tough, but many of us have survived us, so it isn't impossible. It is possible to have a marriage and children during residency but it takes a supportive spouse to do it.
As for hours - expect to spend long days at the hospital (starting at 6am, there until at least 6pm and often later), as well as frequent call (where you work all night). Most programs are on call about every 4th night at least.
As for being a women - the glass ceiling has been busted and many many women have come before you. it is still tough and there are some programs that are more progressive than others, but the days of the "old boys club" have mostly disappeared.
You should try to find a mentor - a female surgeon who has a family and speak to them about what it's like and if you're up for it.
Best of luck.
As for hours - expect to spend long days at the hospital (starting at 6am, there until at least 6pm and often later), as well as frequent call (where you work all night). Most programs are on call about every 4th night at least.
As for being a women - the glass ceiling has been busted and many many women have come before you. it is still tough and there are some programs that are more progressive than others, but the days of the "old boys club" have mostly disappeared.
You should try to find a mentor - a female surgeon who has a family and speak to them about what it's like and if you're up for it.
Best of luck.
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It does depend on the program. Programs that have more female residents will have probably dealt with this situation before, although as noted above, many female general surgery residents do NOT have children, and by choice.
Those that do have children tend to do so during the lab/research years. As you can imagine, it is much easier to juggle work related and child related duties, including call, when you are in the lab. Therefore, a university program with lab opportunities may be a better choice than a small program where if one resident is gone on maternity leave (you), the work load for the others increases dramatically.
Unfortunately, by reputation, and somewhat true, the NE programs, including those in NY, tend to be less welcoming of women and childbearing. That doesn't mean they all are but there is some truth in the observation that programs in the NE tend to be more malignant/old fashioned.
As for nights working, that HIGHLY depends on the programs. Some will have night float, where you generally work 4-5 nights per week for a certain number of weeks per year. Others do not and you can expect anywhere from q3 to q7 call - this will vary from rotation, census and program. There is NO way to know this so far in advance.
What you can know is the dependibility and support of your partner. The female surgical residents and surgeons I know ALL have partners with relaxed, flexible jobs. Surgery residency is anything but flexible. You MUST have a partner who can handle the bulk of the childrearing or accept outside care. You will not be available as much as you would like nor can you count on being able to leave at a certain time every day.
Please read the threads about women in surgery and pregnancy here for an idea of what the reactions are to females taking time off during residency. It is NOT like Peds where programs welcome such talk during interviews.
Those that do have children tend to do so during the lab/research years. As you can imagine, it is much easier to juggle work related and child related duties, including call, when you are in the lab. Therefore, a university program with lab opportunities may be a better choice than a small program where if one resident is gone on maternity leave (you), the work load for the others increases dramatically.
Unfortunately, by reputation, and somewhat true, the NE programs, including those in NY, tend to be less welcoming of women and childbearing. That doesn't mean they all are but there is some truth in the observation that programs in the NE tend to be more malignant/old fashioned.
As for nights working, that HIGHLY depends on the programs. Some will have night float, where you generally work 4-5 nights per week for a certain number of weeks per year. Others do not and you can expect anywhere from q3 to q7 call - this will vary from rotation, census and program. There is NO way to know this so far in advance.
What you can know is the dependibility and support of your partner. The female surgical residents and surgeons I know ALL have partners with relaxed, flexible jobs. Surgery residency is anything but flexible. You MUST have a partner who can handle the bulk of the childrearing or accept outside care. You will not be available as much as you would like nor can you count on being able to leave at a certain time every day.
Please read the threads about women in surgery and pregnancy here for an idea of what the reactions are to females taking time off during residency. It is NOT like Peds where programs welcome such talk during interviews.
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General Surgery is a brutal, thankless residency that requires countless sacrifices. In the end you will wonder how you got to that point, and if it was worth it. It will vary by program; some places it will feel like you stepped into a hot fryer, other places will slow-boil you. The end result is still the same.
The sacrifices are numerous. You give up your usual waking hours, you work longer and harder than most, you're expected to know more than most. You will give up weekends, birthdays, holidays, and many meaningful social interactions. Once you are done you are facing a hostile working environment where the general surgeon is paid a pittance and has to run around the hospital for miscellaneous line placements and pus drainage. Or you face several years of fellowship training, many of which require additional years of research during residency. That can quickly add up to 6-10 years of residency, which is good enough for 2-3 residencies in other fields of medicine.
Still it's worth it to some people. To most it's not. And they suffer quietly until they have nothing left except their job and what's left of their "life outside the hospital".
The sacrifices are numerous. You give up your usual waking hours, you work longer and harder than most, you're expected to know more than most. You will give up weekends, birthdays, holidays, and many meaningful social interactions. Once you are done you are facing a hostile working environment where the general surgeon is paid a pittance and has to run around the hospital for miscellaneous line placements and pus drainage. Or you face several years of fellowship training, many of which require additional years of research during residency. That can quickly add up to 6-10 years of residency, which is good enough for 2-3 residencies in other fields of medicine.
Still it's worth it to some people. To most it's not. And they suffer quietly until they have nothing left except their job and what's left of their "life outside the hospital".
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Yeah, you asked a loaded question for these parts. Pay attention to Winged Scapula's response, she's the most objective poster here, giving you info for your best interest.
As for the rest of us, me included......I agree with everything everyone says. It IS THE most difficult residency you could choose to do. As mentioned, you are looking at a solid DECADE before you're flying with the big jets. It's long.
But, time kinda flies, especially when all you do is work....I'm starting to see little sparkles of light at the end of the tunnel.
With all of that said, I am female, single (wish I wasn't), no kids, no pets, no plants. I wake up at 4 and go to bed at 10 in between 26-28 hour call "days". I go to the gym, go out for dinner and drinks with friends when I can......and that's about it.
And I love being a surgeon.
As for the rest of us, me included......I agree with everything everyone says. It IS THE most difficult residency you could choose to do. As mentioned, you are looking at a solid DECADE before you're flying with the big jets. It's long.
But, time kinda flies, especially when all you do is work....I'm starting to see little sparkles of light at the end of the tunnel.
With all of that said, I am female, single (wish I wasn't), no kids, no pets, no plants. I wake up at 4 and go to bed at 10 in between 26-28 hour call "days". I go to the gym, go out for dinner and drinks with friends when I can......and that's about it.
And I love being a surgeon.
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OK, I'm going to disagree with this part. I'm pretty sure that most people would say that Neurosurg is waaaaay more malignant and difficult training (at least from what I've seen). GenSurg in most places has adopted things like night float and at least makes an attempt at meeting the 80 hour workweek. Neurosurg . . . not so much.
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I dont think gen surg is ultra-tough anymore (at alot of places)
If I were a woman- I would go to a nice community program with night float and alot of other female residents. these programs already have staff that accepts that general surgery is no longer a male dominated field. a bigger university type place has too many old timers floating around and can make it tough for the ladies.
the best time to have a kid is in residency- late 4th yr or early chief year so you can take off as much time, go home early etc with limited ways for people to retaliate against you.
If I were a woman- I would go to a nice community program with night float and alot of other female residents. these programs already have staff that accepts that general surgery is no longer a male dominated field. a bigger university type place has too many old timers floating around and can make it tough for the ladies.
the best time to have a kid is in residency- late 4th yr or early chief year so you can take off as much time, go home early etc with limited ways for people to retaliate against you.
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Point taken. Was thinking in terms of comparing to the non surgical specialties. As a gen surg resident on call at 3am you're up running around, operating, batting cleanup, seeing butt-zit consults while your FP and ER friends are in bed, resting, traveling, raising a family, etc.
Compared to life outside of the medical field it's unbelievably brutal, compared to life in other specialties it's brutal. If you are excited about surgery and feel good about self sticking around to make sure things are done right, then it's tolerable. If a 12 hour work day feels like a short day to you then maybe you can do it.
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"The Association of Surgeons in Training surveyed 1,096 trainee surgeons - and 90% said they were working more than the maximum of 58 hours a week.
Under the European Working Time Directive, due to come in this August, this will be cut to 48 hours."
Wow.
W
wexy
I take issue with a lot of what many of the posters said and agree with the one who i copied above. I am a surgery resident in NY- the programs here are at least 30% women, my program is 50% women. The northeast has the most women friendly residency programs Ive seen. Almost all the people in my residency are married or engaged. many of the male residents have children. its harder for a female resident to have a baby during residency but i think do-able on a research year, and with a supportive spouse. I agree nightfloat really helps, i am at a community program with a nightfloat system. My hours are longer than my radiology colleagues, but certainly do-able. you need to find a place that makes you feel comfortable and where you have female role models. programs do exist, all over the country, you just need to try to go to a place where you can be happy not necessarily the most prestigous place you can get into.
if you want to talk more, PM me.
-wexy
Exactly which other areas have you seen?
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While the programs in the NE may have lots of females, this doesn't necessarily make them "female friendly". There are simply more college educated women and more residency programs in the NE.
I went to a surgical program that was 50% female, and while you might define that as "female friendly" in terms of matching, it certainly was not friendly in terms of understanding child care or pregnancy issues amongst its residents.
I've rotated and worked at a lot of US residency programs prior to residency but only trained in 2 (residency and fellowship) and frankly, I agree with SLUser that the NE, *tends* to be, especially in university programs, more rigid and less friendly in terms of how they treat their residents.
I went to a surgical program that was 50% female, and while you might define that as "female friendly" in terms of matching, it certainly was not friendly in terms of understanding child care or pregnancy issues amongst its residents.
I've rotated and worked at a lot of US residency programs prior to residency but only trained in 2 (residency and fellowship) and frankly, I agree with SLUser that the NE, *tends* to be, especially in university programs, more rigid and less friendly in terms of how they treat their residents.
I'll second the above. Ophthalmology easily has the best lifestyle of the surgical subspecialties. It's a low-stress, highly-rewarding field. Outside of OB/GYN, it has the highest percentage of women among the surgical residencies (40% and likely rising). If you are surgically-inclined I highly recommend doing an ophtho rotation. We've had a high conversion rate among the med students who rotated through our department (both male & female).
