Honors in rotations

[Ypo.]

It's interesting to read about how other schools break down honor requirements.

My school does not have "high pass"-it's either pass or honor (although they do mention "above average" in your letter.

Basically we have to get greater than 85% on the shelf AND greater than such and such on the oral exam AND greater than such and such for clinical evaluations.

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[Tired]

My school does not have "high pass"-it's either pass or honor (although they do mention "above average" in your letter.

I didn't have high pass either. However, the departments were really good about limiting the proportion of students that got honors to no more than 10-20%.

 

[LadyWolverine]

I have a question about honoring clinical rotations, and general trends.

Do those same students who tended to do well during MS1 and MS2 (honors in subjects/blocks) also tend to be those students who honor their rotations during years 3 and 4? Or is the slate wiped clean? I'm guessing that it's probably a bit of both.

Thanks.

 

[smq123]

I have a question about honoring clinical rotations, and general trends.

Do those same students who tended to do well during MS1 and MS2 (honors in subjects/blocks) also tend to be those students who honor their rotations during years 3 and 4? Or is the slate wiped clean? I'm guessing that it's probably a bit of both.

It partly depends on your school and how they determine honors. Most schools factor in your end-of-rotation exam grade with your subjective evaluations to determine your overall rotation grade. Mine doesn't - your exam grade is totally separate from your subjective grade.

Doing well in rotations (as far as I can tell) depends on having common sense and a work ethic. Some people thrived in MS1 and MS2 because they didn't have either - they had a lot of free time (because they never went to class), they were able to get 9 hours of sleep a night, and all they needed to do was be able to put facts together. These are the people who won't do well on rotations (particularly the people who "need" 9 hours of sleep a night).

But a lot of people who worked really hard and honored everything in MS1 and MS2 do just fine on the floors. They work hard, use common sense to figure out how to be useful, etc. So it's really very individual.

 

[LadyWolverine]

Doing well in rotations (as far as I can tell) depends on having common sense and a work ethic....But a lot of people who worked really hard and honored everything in MS1 and MS2 do just fine on the floors. They work hard, use common sense to figure out how to be useful, etc. So it's really very individual.

That's about what I was expecting. That seems fair. Those who put in the extra effort, use common sense, and attempt to be as useful as possible no doubt deserve the honors grade. Thanks for the information.

 

[Tsutsugamushi]

What does it take to honor a rotation? I know doing well on the shelf exam is obviously important but what do you have to do on the floor in order to impress enough to get honors?

 

[smq123]

What does it take to honor a rotation? I know doing well on the shelf exam is obviously important but what do you have to do on the floor in order to impress enough to get honors?

- Depends on the rotation. What will get you honors on a peds rotation may be very different from what helps you honor a surgery rotation.

- Depends on the resident. (Some residents are just perpetually angry at the world.)

- Depends on the rotation site.

In general? Be on time. Don't be a tool. Don't drag your team down. Get your work done on time. If you KNOW that something needs to be done, don't wait to be told to do it....just tell your resident, "I'm going to do this, is that okay?", and then go do it.

In general - observe your residents, especially your intern. See what they do. And then, copy them and try to help them out as much as possible.

 

[MrBurns10]

If you KNOW that something needs to be done, don't wait to be told to do it....just tell your resident, "I'm going to do this, is that okay?", and then go do it.

I agree with everything smq said (I usually do!), but will add that it's even more effective if you know something needs to get done and you know how to do it, just do it. It's always nice when the resident says "we need to do this" and you can say "I already did it."

 

[2oRadio]

What's the difference between honors and high pass?

I racked up a ton of high passes as a 3rd year and still have my heart set on a very competitive field.

 

[cgk]

What's the difference between honors and high pass?

I racked up a ton of high passes as a 3rd year and still have my heart set on a very competitive field.

I am presently a 3rd year student who is also hoping to match into RAD/ONC which is pretty competitive. I did well 1st 2 years but am worrying about honoring the rotations this year. Did you have a high Step one score, which you feel is a compensating factor for high pass vs honors grades in your third year? I would appreciate your feedback in order to evaluate my own situation. thanks...

 

[2oRadio]

I am presently a 3rd year student who is also hoping to match into RAD/ONC which is pretty competitive. I did well 1st 2 years but am worrying about honoring the rotations this year. Did you have a high Step one score, which you feel is a compensating factor for high pass vs honors grades in your third year? I would appreciate your feedback in order to evaluate my own situation. thanks...

I had a very high Step 1 score but it still doesn't make me feel much better about performing (relatively) poorly in 3rd year.

The only feedback I could offer: don't be quiet. I am a quiet person and it clearly hasn't panned out well for me.

I could offer more feedback once I see how this year's match goes for me despite the 3rd year grades.

 

[vtucci]

To OP, there are students who honor in all the clinical rotations. However, it is certainly not the norm. In our school, there are usually 2-5 who do so and then another group who get all but one honors and a high pass and so on down the line.

I have found that the key to honoring is to show up on time with an enthusiastic attitude. Work hard, read and be pleasant to everyone. I am outgoing by nature and it has worked out well for me. I think being quiet can sometimes be misinterpreted as uninterested.

Study for your shelf exams from day 1 of a rotation-- they sneak up on you.

Take care of your health. Taking the surgery shelf when ill (trust me, I speak from experience) is miserable.

 

[Pewl]

I'm in the same boat as you. I'm highly interested in rad onc. However, most of the PD's i've spoken to at certain programs that I'm interested in essentially told me they don't even look at or read letters from other rotations! They primarily paid attention to rad onc letters. Nonetheless, it's probably a good idea to try to do well overall and have as balanced of an application as you can.

I am presently a 3rd year student who is also hoping to match into RAD/ONC which is pretty competitive. I did well 1st 2 years but am worrying about honoring the rotations this year. Did you have a high Step one score, which you feel is a compensating factor for high pass vs honors grades in your third year? I would appreciate your feedback in order to evaluate my own situation. thanks...

 

[SoCuteMD]

I'm in the same boat as you. I'm highly interested in rad onc. However, most of the PD's i've spoken to at certain programs that I'm interested in essentially told me they don't even look at or read letters from other rotations! They primarily paid attention to rad onc letters. Nonetheless, it's probably a good idea to try to do well overall and have as balanced of an application as you can.

Just because they don't read letters doesn't mean they don't look at grades.

Your grades on rotation have a lot of bearing on class rank (at my school they count for what first and second year count for - together) and, of course, on AOA status.

that being said, you seem to have the right approach. Good luck!

 

[SOUNDMAN]

Our school has critereia for the exam 85% and a certain criteria for the subjective clinical evaluation in order to get Honors in a rotation. Basically we have 18 catagories that can be rated on a scale from 1-5 with 3 being meets expectations of a 3rd year medical student. 4 being advanced and 5 being exceptional at these differing catagories.

Basically we have to average a 4.8 on our evaluations, so you can basically only get two 4's and the rest HAVE to be 5's. Is this consistent with everyone elses clinical evaluations? That's essentially a "96%" on the clinical evaluation.

What are others criteria on the clinical evaluation?

 

[basfan2000]

well, i received "95%" on my clinical eval and 93% on my in-service Psych exam, and that wasn't good enough for honors...

 

[LadyWolverine]

well, i received "95%" on my clinical eval and 93% on my in-service Psych exam, and that wasn't good enough for honors...

The honors requirements for years 3/4 at some schools is ridiculous. At my school, for the pre-clinical years, it's pretty clear-cut. You needed to be top 10% of the class and do a special project to receive honors in most blocks. And the first 2 years are A,B,C,D,F. (Most people who get an "A" are eligible for honors, so the "A" becomes an "H").

Years 3/4 are A,A-,B+,B,B-, and so on. You can get an A and still not be "honors."

WTF??

Bottom line: stop killing yourself over grades, do the best you can, learn as much as you can.

 

[SOUNDMAN]

Well atleast some other people have to deal with this ridiculousness as well. I've just gone to explaining to my preceptors that if they truly think "I was the best med student they ever had" and that if honors or deserved, what that entails on the student evaluation. I mean if you don't "honor" the rotation where you want to do residency it can look pretty bad can it not?

 

[Wardens]

In addition to anticipating what needs to be done and doing it, showing up on time and not being nagging, something I learned that's really helpful for doing well on a rotation is asking your senior resident and attending to give you feedback around the half-way point. Something like, "can we sit down tomorrow for a few minutes to discuss how I'm doing" will work fine. Then, at the end of the feedback, thank them and say you'll work on whatever they suggest. 1) This shows you're interested in learning 2) they have something to offer you, so they feel helpful and 3) there's almost no way for you to not show improvement in the rotation.

 

[anon-y-mouse]

Just found out I honored medicine, pretty happy about that. Though I don't know individual people's scores, I am fairly buddy-buddy with the department secretary, who showed me the exam scores + final grades at the end (no names, naturally). Everyone who got honors got at least 80-85 or so on the shelf, without exception. and no one who got 80-85 on the shelf DIDN'T get honors on the rotation. Some people who were complete STARS on their rotation, personality-wise, dedication-wise, etc. etc. didn't get honors and their shelf scores were in the 60's-70's. What does that tell us? If you're not an ******* or just completely ******ed/socially inept on your rotation, everyone's pretty much going to get similar evaluations and the only thing to genuinely stratify people is the shelf exam score... therefore, I would say, for at least large core clerkships, focus on the shelf, but at the same time, don't blow off your rotation and look bad to your team -- but being that supremely awesome rockstar is not a sine qua non for honors.

 

[dragonfly99]

Wardens comment is totally on. I totally should have done that long ago when I was a 3rd year medical student. It can be hard to get honors if you DON'T do that, at some schools. I thought if I did that I'd come across as a grade-grubber, and that showing up every day and working really, really hard would be enough for honors. It was so not.

I also 100% agree with the comment above about the fact that if you are quiet vs. more outgoing it tends to hurt your evaluations b/c many will interpret this as a lack of interest. I actually think it's unfortunate b/c how talkative someone is and how many jokes he can tell truly doesn't tell much about what kind of doc he'll be.

Agree that shelf exam scores can be important in determining the grade. I had high pass on 3/3 months of my surgery core clerkship, but because of only getting 59th %ile (OUCH!) on the shelf, I got a grade of PASS (our school had honors/high pass/pass 3rd year grades). That blew a big one...if I'd just worked less hard on the wards but kicked butt on the shelf I would have gotten a HP like everyone else. Similarly, sometimes a high shelf score doesn't help you. I got 93%ile on my psych shelf exam and got a good clinical evaluation too, but I still got a high pass rather than honors...the clerkship director said there would be "too many" honors if they set the bar below 94% required to honor the clerkship.

The bottom line is 3rd year grades end up being on the curve, and somebody has to be at the bottom of the curve (unless you're at a school which only does pass/honors with 20% or less of people getting honors, which I think would be the best grading system). The game is to avoid being at the bottom of the curve, and if possible be at the top of the curve. It took me 3/4 the way through 3rd year to learn this...LOL.