Honors in rotations

[Medstudentquest]

I'm curious, what is the average number of honors people receive on clerkships? It seems like they are so hard to get, but I've talked to a number of students who claim they have a ton of them. I'm curious what the experience has been of people here as far as the number of overall honors they've received in their core rotations?

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[nasdr]

at our school, 10-15% of the students on the rotation are awarded honors. also, most (or nearly all) of these students have honors on their clinical evals and honors on their shelf.

I'm curious, what is the average number of honors people receive on clerkships? It seems like they are so hard to get, but I've talked to a number of students who claim they have a ton of them. I'm curious what the experience has been of people here as far as the number of overall honors they've received in their core rotations?

 

[Medstudentquest]

at our school, 10-15% of the students on the rotation are awarded honors. also, most (or nearly all) of these students have honors on their clinical evals and honors on their shelf.

Ok. Maybe I worded that inappropriately. I meant to ask, what is the overall number of honors people receive from all core rotations, as in, if there are 6 or 7 core rotations, depending on the school, most people receive what- 3 or 4 honors and then either pass or high pass in the other 2?

 

[jocg27]

Ok. Maybe I worded that inappropriately. I meant to ask, what is the overall number of honors people receive from all core rotations, as in, if there are 6 or 7 core rotations, depending on the school, most people receive what- 3 or 4 honors and then either pass or high pass in the other 2?

It does seem that most schools give 10-15% percent honors for any given rotation, and they would seem to overlap, at least to some degree (ie people who have honors in one rotation are likely to get them in at least some others, by virtue of being luckypeople or naturally gifted or hard studiers or knowing how to play the game, or whatever the case may be).

So, as shocking and outrageous as it might be to the sdn crowd, iI would think it's likely that 'most' people will receive between zero and two honors.

If 10% of the class is getting honors each rotation, how exactly do you think its possible for 'most' people to have 4 honors in 7 rotations?

 

[Medstudentquest]

It does seem that most schools give 10-15% percent honors for any given rotation, and they would seem to overlap, at least to some degree (ie people who have honors in one rotation are likely to get them in at least some others, by virtue of being luckypeople or naturally gifted or hard studiers or knowing how to play the game, or whatever the case may be).

So, as shocking and outrageous as it might be to the sdn crowd, iI would think it's likely that 'most' people will receive between zero and two honors.

If 10% of the class is getting honors each rotation, how exactly do you think its possible for 'most' people to have 4 honors in 7 rotations?

Well, in theory, I agree with you! I would assume that the vast majority of people would NOT get honors, but alot of people have told me that they honored multiple clerkships. It seems sort of shocking to me that so many of them are honoring if according to most schools, about 10% of people will get overall honors. So either the system gives way more than honors than 10% or alot of people are lying. I would like to make a poll of this though. I think it would be interesting.

 

[Law2Doc]

Ok. Maybe I worded that inappropriately. I meant to ask, what is the overall number of honors people receive from all core rotations, as in, if there are 6 or 7 core rotations, depending on the school, most people receive what- 3 or 4 honors and then either pass or high pass in the other 2?

I think you are misunderstanding the process. Most people get honors in none of their rotations. That's why it's called honors -- it is something better than the typical person is getting. See the prior poster who indicated that only 10-15% of each rotation group is going to get honors (sounds pretty accurate for most schools). That means 85-90% won't.

 

[Law2Doc]

... either the system gives way more than honors than 10% or alot of people are lying. I would like to make a poll of this though. I think it would be interesting.

Assuming arguendo that SDN is a representative sampling, if one of the possibilities is that people are lying, then a poll would not be enlightening. The same people would lie on the poll. So it would tell you nothing new.

 

[Medstudentquest]

I think you are misunderstanding the process. Most people get honors in none of their rotations. That's why it's called honors -- it is something better than the typical person is getting. See the prior poster who indicated that only 10-15% of each rotation group is going to get honors (sounds pretty accurate for most schools). That means 85-90% won't.

The 10% or so is usually per rotation, not per year, so given that there are 3-4 times each rotation is repeated throughout the academic year to accomodate each class, that means that potentially, 30-40% of a class can get honors.

 

[Medstudentquest]

Assuming arguendo that SDN is a representative sampling, if one of the possibilities is that people are lying, then a poll would not be enlightening. The same people would lie on the poll. So it would tell you nothing new.

You are probably right about this.

 

[Law2Doc]

The 10% or so is usually per rotation, not per year, so given that there are 3-4 times each rotation is repeated throughout the academic year to accomodate each class, that means that potentially, 30-40% of a class can get honors.

I don't think your math is right. 10% of a bunch of small groups still equals 10% of the bigger group. Eg. if there are 10 groups of 10, and each time 10% (i.e. 1 person) gets honors, that adds up to 10 people, or 10% of the entire 100.

 

[t33sg1rl]

Of course you will hear about the people that got honors... if I honored a bunch of stuff, I'd probably brag about it, too, though I hope to God I wouldn't post some *****ic "Boo hoo, after getting a 260 on Step 1 and honoring every rotation but OBGYN, can I still be a dermatologist?" thread.

If evaluations and grading are fair (which they aren't, which is another thread) then the top 10-20% of the class will have honored multiple clerkships, and the bottom half will probably have honored nothing at all.

 

[OHMAN0125]

The 10% or so is usually per rotation, not per year, so given that there are 3-4 times each rotation is repeated throughout the academic year to accomodate each class, that means that potentially, 30-40% of a class can get honors.

I think your math needs just a bit of brushing up.
Btw, i'm joking. My math sux too now.

 

[Medstudentquest]

I think your math needs just a bit of brushing up.
Btw, i'm joking. My math sux too now.

Lol. You're right, my math sucks.

 

[PlAnEjaNe]

The 10% or so is usually per rotation, not per year, so given that there are 3-4 times each rotation is repeated throughout the academic year to accomodate each class, that means that potentially, 30-40% of a class can get honors.

I don't understand why people are disagreeing with this because this makes sense to me. If it is per rotation then it is likely that different people are receiving honors on each rotation, thus, potentially 30%-40% of the class is likely to have honors in at least one rotation, no? This is how I read the reasoning to this statement.

Example: 100 students in a class are broken up into 10 different groups for 10 different rotations. 10% of 10 is 1 person.

Group 1:
A honors in rotation 1 but not in rotations 2-10
B honors in rotation 2 but not in rotations 1 and 3-10
C honors in rotation 3 but not in rotations 1, 2, and 4-10
D honors in rotation 4
E honors in rotation 5
F honors in rotation 6
G in 7
H in 8
I in 9
J in 10

This means that all 10 students have honors in 1 rotation. If the same situation is repeated for the other 9 groups then it is possible that every student will have an honors rotation since neither of the groups will participate in the same rotation concurrently. That means that 100% of the class will have honors in a rotation.

Someone please tell me if this reasoning is all crap or not.


PlAnEjaNe

 

[Medstudentquest]

I don't understand why people are disagreeing with this because this makes sense to me. If it is per rotation then it is likely that different people are receiving honors on each rotation, thus, potentially 30%-40% of the class is likely to have honors in at least one rotation, no? This is how I read the reasoning to this statement.

Example: 100 students in a class are broken up into 10 different groups for 10 different rotations. 10% of 10 is 1 person.

Group 1:
A honors in rotation 1 but not in rotations 2-10
B honors in rotation 2 but not in rotations 1 and 3-10
C honors in rotation 3 but not in rotations 1, 2, and 4-10
D honors in rotation 4
E honors in rotation 5
F honors in rotation 6
G in 7
H in 8
I in 9
J in 10

This means that all 10 students have honors in 1 rotation. If the same situation is repeated for the other 9 groups then it is possible that every student will have an honors rotation since neither of the groups will participate in the same rotation concurrently. That means that 100% of the class will have honors in a rotation.

Someone please tell me if this reasoning is all crap or not.


PlAnEjaNe

Well my reasoning was similar to yours, but I guess it's incorrect too. So based on how others are looking at this, say a class has 400 students and there are 4 OB rotations/year for the class, with 100 students per rotation. So if 10% of the first group of 100 students got honors, that means 10 people would be OB honors. Then repeat the 10% (or 10 people per group) by 4 rotations and you'd get 40 people who get OB honors for the entire class or 10% of 400 student class. I guess that's the mathematical way of looking at that. :|

 

[PlAnEjaNe]

Well my reasoning was similar to yours, but I guess it's incorrect too. So based on how others are looking at this, say a class has 400 students and there are 4 OB rotations/year for the class, with 100 students per rotation. So if 10% of the first group of 100 students got honors, that means 10 people would be OB honors. Then repeat the 10% (or 10 people per group) by 4 rotations and you'd get 40 people who get OB honors for the entire class or 10% of 400 student class. I guess that's the mathematical way of looking at that. :|

I understand that as a per rotation reasoning, but there is more than just one rotation, which is why I had that example, see, if rotation 1 was OB, then yes, 10% did get honors in the total class-10 people, however, when those students move on to the next rotation, a new set of students could receive honors, i.e., the students that honored in OB, do not honor in Peds, say, and instead, a completely new set of 10 students honor that rotation, thus, 20 students have received 'honors' status, just in different rotations...make sense now?


PlAnEjaNe

 

[Medstudentquest]

I understand that as a per rotation reasoning, but there is more than just one rotation, which is why I had that example, see, if rotation 1 was OB, then yes, 10% did get honors in the total class-10 people, however, when those students move on to the next rotation, a new set of students could receive honors, i.e., the students that honored in OB, do not honor in Peds, say, and instead, a completely new set of 10 students honor that rotation, thus, 20 students have received 'honors' status, just in different rotations...make sense now?


PlAnEjaNe

Right, I understand that. However, my original question sort of focused on whether 30-40% of people would be multiple honors over the course of the year in several rotations. But I think we've figured out the answer to that.

 

[PlAnEjaNe]

Right, I understand that. However, my original question sort of focused on whether 30-40% of people would be multiple honors over the course of the year in several rotations. But I think we've figured out the answer to that.

Ohhh, I see. LOL. Well, we know that it is possible that 100% of the students can have 1 honors (assuming there are enough rotations, like the 10 rotations and 100 students example), then it is feasible to say that 50% of the class will could have 2 honors while the other 50% of the class has 0 honors.

I guess it is possible but not probable given the circumstances of the varying environments in a rotation (along with an individual's motivation and interest).


PlAnEjaNE


Edit: I messed up my math and don't feel like working out percentages with unknowns right now.

 

[QuinnB]

Honestly - most people get 0-1 honors out of 6-7 core rotations. At my school (10-15% get honors for each core rotation), you are in the top 1/3 of your class if you get all high passes (no honors or pass grades). Typically an "outstanding" student will get 3-4 out of 7 possible honors. These students, in general, are also the ones who are selected for senior AOA. It is very rare for people to honor 5 or more core rotations and I have only heard of 2 cases (both honored 6/7 3rd year clerkships). Some of the smartest, most interesting/hardworking/personable people in my class only honored 1-2 core clerkships - people who you were confident would honor everything. It's a weird system.

It is true that honoring one rotation is predictive of honoring future rotations.

 

[Law2Doc]

Honestly - most people get 0-1 honors out of 6-7 core rotations.

This is pretty much the answer. There will be a group of people who consistently do well, a small group who do well in a given rotation, and a huge majority group who never will break above the high pass line. End result is that most people will never honor anything. The average will be to honor less than one. So the idea of most people honoring 3+ rotations is way off. If you do, you are at the top of the pack.

 

[RockShox]

I don't know how many people get honors I will find out in our dean's letter because it is listed there. But it is possible to honor all rotations. I have honored all of my clerkships, how rare that is I have no idea, and I am by no means the smart kid in my class, I am just a hard working country boy I guess. So it can be done by normal people. I have also participated on some resident selections research and there were people in that stack in all Honors grades.

 

[Medstudentquest]

I don't know how many people get honors I will find out in our dean's letter because it is listed there. But it is possible to honor all rotations. I have honored all of my clerkships, how rare that is I have no idea, and I am by no means the smart kid in my class, I am just a hard working country boy I guess. So it can be done by normal people. I have also participated on some resident selections research and there were people in that stack in all Honors grades.

I have never yet met someone who honored all clerkships. :| Seems like it would be difficult to do really, especially because people tend to be either more medicine or surgically oriented, and therefore if they do well in one, they tend to do less well in the other rotation, but hey what do I know.

 

[RockShox]

I have never yet met someone who honored all clerkships. :| Seems like it would be difficult to do really, especially because people tend to be either more medicine or surgically oriented, and therefore if they do well in one, they tend to do less well in the other rotation, but hey what do I know.

Yeah I think you do fit with certain things more...I mean when I was on medicine I wanted to slit my wrists within 3 days, but then on surgery within 2 hours I thought I had found Mecca. Still, if you can muster the endurance I think you can make it work with a smile. It may have come from years of doing crappy jobs, like bucking bales of hay, or working in a pigeon pit at a firing range, i don't know.

Really, I think the key is just to be helpful and easily entreatable. Ask thought full questions, not dumb ones just because you feel you need to ask a question, but ones that are a few steps ahead, like instead of asking "whats this part of the gut" try "what ways are there to minimize post-surgical adhesions?, or what are some things I should pay attention to for this type of surgery post-op?" The key is to ask questions that you sincerely want to know. And above all being normal is good. Like I said I am not near the smartest people in my class but I have always been a hard worker and the type to get the s**t done no matter if its in my list of tasks or someone elses. So maybe that helps. And...of course the shelf-exams are quite important as they often spread the grades.

 

[Medstudentquest]

Yeah I think you do fit with certain things more...I mean when I was on medicine I wanted to slit my wrists within 3 days, but then on surgery within 2 hours I thought I had found Mecca. Still, if you can muster the endurance I think you can make it work with a smile. It may have come from years of doing crappy jobs, like bucking bales of hay, or working in a pigeon pit at a firing range, i don't know.

Really, I think the key is just to be helpful and easily entreatable. Ask thought full questions, not dumb ones just because you feel you need to ask a question, but ones that are a few steps ahead, like instead of asking "whats this part of the gut" try "what ways are there to minimize post-surgical adhesions?, or what are some things I should pay attention to for this type of surgery post-op?" The key is to ask questions that you sincerely want to know. And above all being normal is good. Like I said I am not near the smartest people in my class but I have always been a hard worker and the type to get the s**t done no matter if its in my list of tasks or someone elses. So maybe that helps. And...of course the shelf-exams are quite important as they often spread the grades.

I agree that hard work is key to these rotations, but it also depends on your team. I have been lucky for most of my rotations thus far to have awsome teams for the most part, except in one rotation where I was abused and the team was horrible. I personally have gotten clinical outstandings in many of my clerkships, but because I read soooo slowly, I have missed the outstanding mark by a few points in several of my shelf exams. It's quite disappointing to put so much work into these clerkships, get the the clinical outstanding, and then miss the overall outstanding by a couple of points.

 

[coreynbr]

I have to agree with RockShox, working hard on rotations definitely plays a big role. I have been very lucky to honor all of my clerkships except for the little rotation at our school were everyone just gets a pass. I have had the worst third year schedule possible ortho, break, FM, then Cardio. Let me tell you that in Ortho and Cardio i truly got my ASS handed to me but they were both just the doc and I and at the end of the rotation they had high remarks about me. So all in all, if you give your all and at least act like you love what you're doing your clerkship grades will go up. Just my 2 cents

 

[Medstudentquest]

I have to agree with RockShox, working hard on rotations definitely plays a big role. I have been very lucky to honor all of my clerkships except for the little rotation at our school were everyone just gets a pass. I have had the worst third year schedule possible ortho, break, FM, then Cardio. Let me tell you that in Ortho and Cardio i truly got my ASS handed to me but they were both just the doc and I and at the end of the rotation they had high remarks about me. So all in all, if you give your all and at least act like you love what you're doing your clerkship grades will go up. Just my 2 cents

I was referring to core rotations during 3rd year, not ortho, ENT, neuro, etc. not 4th year ones where everyone does well. It's also not just about the actual clinical grade you get, it's relatively easy to get an outstanding clinically, but the shelf exams are killers. Ortho, break, FM, cardio sounds like a sweet schedule to me.

 

[el_chavo]

I personally have gotten clinical outstandings in many of my clerkships, but because I read soooo slowly, I have missed the outstanding mark by a few points in several of my shelf exams. It's quite disappointing to put so much work into these clerkships, get the the clinical outstanding, and then miss the overall outstanding by a couple of points.

It seems that this is huge. People that say if you have difficulty with tests during the first two years, you can do well the third year if you're just a hard worker/personable/etc. are not being completely truthful because the shelf where I go is 25-35% of the final grade.
For most people I think the final grade does come down to your shelf score. If you honor the shelf, the chance of honoring the rotation is high. If you're mostly honors, some high pass on your clinical evals, but only pass the shelf, no honors. Once again, it is the exam score that determines the final grade.

 

[Medstudentquest]

It seems that this is huge. People that say if you have difficulty with tests during the first two years, you can do well the third year if you're just a hard worker/personable/etc. are not being completely truthful because the shelf where I go is 25-35% of the final grade.
For most people I think the final grade does come down to your shelf score. If you honor the shelf, the chance of honoring the rotation is high. If you're mostly honors, some high pass on your clinical evals, but only pass the shelf, no honors. Once again, it is the exam score that determines the final grade.

I'm not sure how it works at your school but if you honor the shelf and got a proficient clinically for example, you'd only get an advanced. Also needless to say, it's very difficult to honor the shelf exams. If you have an advanced, you also need an honors on the shelf to get an honors. If you got a clinical outstanding, you just need to keep it with the shelf. But again, shelf exams are a pain in the butt, particularly the medicine one. I got a clinical outstanding for example in medicine, but ran out of time and didn't get to finish it, and while I did pass it, I couldn't keep my clinical outstanding. I wonder if there is any strategy I can use to read faster or have the ability to finish these tests on time?

 

[RockShox]

It seems that this is huge. People that say if you have difficulty with tests during the first two years, you can do well the third year if you're just a hard worker/personable/etc. are not being completely truthful because the shelf where I go is 25-35% of the final grade.
For most people I think the final grade does come down to your shelf score. If you honor the shelf, the chance of honoring the rotation is high. If you're mostly honors, some high pass on your clinical evals, but only pass the shelf, no honors. Once again, it is the exam score that determines the final grade.

I think there is a lot of truth to this....I can't say for sure but I think at least one or two of my rotations were completely shelf exam...who knows.

 

[Law2Doc]

People that say if you have difficulty with tests during the first two years, you can do well the third year if you're just a hard worker/personable/etc. are not being completely truthful because the shelf where I go is 25-35% of the final grade.

Well, for someone who does not test well, having only 25% of your grade determined by a test would be a huge improvement as compared to the previous years where everything came down to tests. So you'd see those folks who formerly perhaps hugged the curve finally being able to excell in other aspects. Doesn't help everyone but definitely helps folks who are better at personal skills than testing skills. If you do outstanding in your evaluations and decent in the test you are much better off than doing outstanding on the shelf but only decent in evaluations. So in that respect, folks are being completely truthful.

 

[QuinnB]

I think someone mentioned it earlier, but not only your team but the make up of your class as a whole can have a significant impact. I think my class is really chill but the class below us is insane. I have yet to meet a single non-gunner type personality from that cohort. It just seems that we had so many people who just didn't care about clerkship grades in our class but these kids are losing their mind over evals and shelf exams. I don't know if anyone else has had similar experiences.

 

[el_chavo]

Well, for someone who does not test well, having only 25% of your grade determined by a test would be a huge improvement as compared to the previous years where everything came down to tests. So you'd see those folks who formerly perhaps hugged the curve finally being able to excell in other aspects. Doesn't help everyone but definitely helps folks who are better at personal skills than testing skills. If you do outstanding in your evaluations and decent in the test you are much better off than doing outstanding on the shelf but only decent in evaluations. So in that respect, folks are being completely truthful.

It is true that you will be better off and that part is true. I still feel like those with solid understanding AND people skills will ultimately be the better doctors.
Still, it doesn't mean if you're an outstanding evals but decent shelf you'll get honors on most rotations and rock 3rd year. You'll do well, just not honors if you don't do better than decent on the shelf (in my limited experience).

 

[Law2Doc]

Still, it doesn't mean if you're an outstanding evals but decent shelf you'll get honors on most rotations and rock 3rd year. You'll do well, just not honors if you don't do better than decent on the shelf (in my limited experience).

If you can only be one dimensional, your chances of getting honors are better if you crank on evaluations than if you crank on the shelf. All I'm saying. Obviously the folks great on both are best off. But simply being test smart probably doesn't even get you a decent grade third year, while being a people person might.

 

[Medstudentquest]

If you can only be one dimensional, your chances of getting honors are better if you crank on evaluations than if you crank on the shelf. All I'm saying. Obviously the folks great on both are best off. But simply being test smart probably doesn't even get you a decent grade third year, while being a people person might.

Very true.

 

[premed7]

Very true.

this doesn't always hold true. We have to honor the nbme to honor the rotation, despite excellent clinical evals.

 

[Law2Doc]

this doesn't always hold true.

Well, the statement to which he was saying "true" to, generally does hold true. Your second sentence says something different (and not mutually exclusive).

 

[joe6102]

If you can only be one dimensional, your chances of getting honors are better if you crank on evaluations than if you crank on the shelf. All I'm saying. Obviously the folks great on both are best off. But simply being test smart probably doesn't even get you a decent grade third year, while being a people person might.

Not at my school. The 3 rotations I've seen so far have all been something like this:

30% shelf
30% OSCE
20% evals
20% participation

Everyone who wants it can get the participation, and the way they grade the OSCE's, you don't need to be good with people or an ass-kisser. You just have to do every single thing they are looking for. You can ace these even if you have no personality (something like 10% of the OSCE grade is your doctor-patient interaction).

And I think it's easier for a d-bag to get a great eval than it is for the average student to get 95%ile on a shelf.

 

[Law2Doc]

Not at my school. The 3 rotations I've seen so far have all been something like this:

30% shelf
30% OSCE
20% evals
20% participation

Everyone who wants it can get the participation, and the way they grade the OSCE's, you don't need to be good with people or an ass-kisser. You just have to do every single thing they are looking for. You can ace these even if you have no personality (something like 10% of the OSCE grade is your doctor-patient interaction).

And I think it's easier for a d-bag to get a great eval than it is for the average student to get 95%ile on a shelf.

Wow - that seems much more objective grading than most places I've heard about. (Which again is probably better for some people and worse for others). Lots of places use closer to the 25-30% shelf vs 70-75% subjective stuff (including evaluations) split referenced above.

 

[Medstudentquest]

this doesn't always hold true. We have to honor the nbme to honor the rotation, despite excellent clinical evals.

We don't, but regardless, the clinical component of the evaluation counts for 66% of thetotal grade in my school. Therefore, even if you honored the shelf, which I would think it's pretty darn hard to do, if a student got mediocre evals, they would not honor the rotation regardless. However, if a student did well on the shelf and got great evals, they would honor the rotation. So if a student is one dimensional as someone mentioned, it would be better to have people/patient skills as far as 3rd year grades go, at least at my school.

 

[Medstudentquest]

Wow - that seems much more objective grading than most places I've heard about. (Which again is probably better for some people and worse for others). Lots of places use closer to the 25-30% shelf vs 70-75% subjective stuff (including evaluations) split referenced above.

The participation is not objective. Anyone who shows up will get participation. I think that 20% of your grade being participation is way too much, as it's med school as opposed to undergrad. The rest is objective, although OSCE's tend to be relatively easy in my experience.

 

[el_chavo]

So here's the next question. If 3rd year grades are so variable from school to school, do they really matter? I know much of this goes into selection of AOA and what-not but for the 75% or more of us who won't be on that list but are solid medical students, does it really spell doom?
I suppose that's why the letters of recommendation become so helpful during most residency application processes. I'm hoping that if you're a hard working, interested medical student who learns a ton during their rotations, does very well to excellent on the clinical evals, and does decent on the shelf exams will fare just fine in the match even if they earn no honors grades at all (this very well may describe me, but who knows, it's still early). These qualities will show through in the letters of recommendation or other parts of the application package.

 

[Law2Doc]

The participation is not objective. Anyone who shows up will get participation.

What you describe is objective. Subjective would mean that the quantity and quality is taken into account, per someone's discretion/opinion.

 

[premed7]

What you describe is objective. Subjective would mean that the quantity and quality is taken into account, per someone's discretion/opinion.

It's just semantics, I think all of us understand what's being said. You correcting every statement that's posted is unnecessary and just plain annoying.

 

[joe6102]

It's just semantics, I think all of us understand what's being said. You correcting every statement that's posted is unnecessary and just plain annoying.

It's more than semantics. The entire meaning of the post is confusing because of it, which is just plain annoying to me.

 

[Medstudentquest]

What you describe is objective. Subjective would mean that the quantity and quality is taken into account, per someone's discretion/opinion.

Thanks for the correction, but I know what objective vs. subjective means. No need for the explanation. My point is that I find it preposterous to have "participation" as part of medical school grades. We are no longer in high school. Just being present won't save a patient's life in the future if you don't know what to do. Just my 0.02.

 

[Medstudentquest]

It's more than semantics. The entire meaning of the post is confusing because of it, which is just plain annoying to me.

I do believe that it is pretty clear what I mean. I don't see how it's terribly confusing.

 

[joe6102]

I do believe that it is pretty clear what I mean. I don't see how it's terribly confusing.

Well it says "The participation is not objective" and "the rest is objective." That is very confusing because neither is accurate.

 

[QuinnB]

So here's the next question. If 3rd year grades are so variable from school to school, do they really matter? I know much of this goes into selection of AOA and what-not but for the 75% or more of us who won't be on that list but are solid medical students, does it really spell doom?
I suppose that's why the letters of recommendation become so helpful during most residency application processes. I'm hoping that if you're a hard working, interested medical student who learns a ton during their rotations, does very well to excellent on the clinical evals, and does decent on the shelf exams will fare just fine in the match even if they earn no honors grades at all (this very well may describe me, but who knows, it's still early). These qualities will show through in the letters of recommendation or other parts of the application package.

Yes grades matter - there are several posts on this including responses from some residency PDs and others. Every school gets a list of how your scores compare to everyone else's for each clerkship.

 

[Medstudentquest]

Yes grades matter - there are several posts on this including responses from some residency PDs and others. Every school gets a list of how your scores compare to everyone else's for each clerkship.

Really? So they list each person's overall clerkship grade? Is it possible to get a list of these scores?

 

[QuinnB]

Really? So they list each person's overall clerkship grade? Is it possible to get a list of these scores?

They don't list everyone's grades. In the dean's letter (at least at my institution, it may be a separate document elsewhere), they have your grades listed for particular clerkships. Along with the grades they have a distribution of all of the people in the class who get Honors, HP, P or F (or the equivalent system of grades) for each clerkship. This is supposed to allow people to distinguish between a school where only 10% get honors versus a school where 30% get honors. After a while, PDs know what a good number of honors is from a given institution and these distributions become less important.