Having a kid during the last year of pharm school...

[PharmDstudent]

Bull****. You speculated about what I was diagnosed with, used the terms "magically" and "somehow nonfunctional" and claimed that I "really want to think my pregnancy is an accident." I never should have used the word accident. I should have said it was a surprise, which it was because I thought I was going to be childless, despite loving children and loving being a parent before my daughter's death. So, although I misspoke, I really think, in light of everything else that has happened in my life, that the proper term for my pregnancy is MIRACLE.

If you think you need to hit that far below the belt to win an argument, you've already lost.

FINALLY! Another person now sees that "accident" is not the correct word usage. Now on to the next person...

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[owlegrad]

You really want to think that your pregnancy is an accident, because you were diagnosed with polycystic ovary disease (or some disease that magically makes a full set of female organs somehow nonfunctional). It's sad... And I don't appreciate the nasty private messaging!

... For whatever reason, she's making it personal... like we're attacking her specifically... as if!

Yeah, how could anyone take that comment to be a personal attack? You are clearly speaking in general terms, not singling out anyone in particular. And you have never mistakenly taken anything to be a personal attack against you, right?

Oh, and my above post is meant in general terms and is not directed at anyone in particular.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

FINALLY! Another person now sees that "accident" is not the correct word usage. Now on to the next person...

If only I had known that my sincere response to a legitimate question by an SDN friend was going to be nit picked and every word choice analyzed and ridiculed... I would have been so much more careful. Jeez.

 

[SpirivaSunrise]

If only I had known that my sincere response to a legitimate question by an SDN friend was going to be nit picked and every word choice analyzed and ridiculed... I would have been so much more careful. Jeez.

Soooooooooooo. On a lighter note...can I just say that the remod projects look great! I've been enjoying every step along the way.

And you look so happy in all of your pics. Just wanted to pass along that I couldn't be happier for you guys

 

[SpirivaSunrise]

Why does A4MD have to be so sarcastic towards me and SHC1984? Are we not allowed to have opinions, too?

Because, you my dear, seem to think so highly of yourself that you deem every one of your opinions as fact. I hate to break it to you, but just because people disagree with your personal choices...does not put them in the wrong.

Even though you advocate freedom of conscience, you're awful quick to assault someone for having an opposing point of view!

But please, continue to play the aggressor-turned-woe, is me player...because you're getting awful good at it!

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Soooooooooooo. On a lighter note...can I just say that the remod projects look great! I've been enjoying every step along the way.

And you look so happy in all of your pics. Just wanted to pass along that I couldn't be happier for you guys

Thank you! I hired this architect/interior designer who has been out of work since the economy tanked. He did everything himself except the electrical and plumbing. His tile work is magnificent! SOOOO lucky to have met him! And his husband quilts and is making some stuff for the baby's room. It is nice to (finally) feel happy again. A good change!

Your house is fabulous too! It has so many of the classic details that you just don't often see in new construction anymore. Lovely!

 

[rxlea]

Soooooooooooo. On a lighter note...can I just say that the remod projects look great! I've been enjoying every step along the way.

And you look so happy in all of your pics. Just wanted to pass along that I couldn't be happier for you guys

I am diggin the new avatar Spiriva

 

[PharmDstudent]

Because, you my dear, seem to think so highly of yourself that you deem every one of your opinions as fact. I hate to break it to you, but just because people disagree with your personal choices...does not put them in the wrong.

Even though you advocate freedom of conscience, you're awful quick to assault someone for having an opposing point of view!

But please, continue to play the aggressor-turned-woe, is me player...because you're getting awful good at it!

Put who in the wrong? How are they wrong? Rights are rights, but I said nothing about anyone being right or wrong. It was about logic and understanding, not right vs wrong. Assaulting who? Hmmmm.... Thank you for trying to describe how I supposedly "play", because this was all a joke.

Why don't you start a new thread about housebuilding?

 

[rxlea]

Put who in the wrong? How are they wrong? Rights are rights, but I said nothing about anyone being right or wrong. It was about logic and understanding, not right vs wrong. Assaulting who? Hmmmm.... Thank you for trying to describe how I supposedly "play", because this was all a joke.

Why don't you start a new thread about housebuilding?

I have an idea.... why don't you click the X button in the top right hand corner and take a chill pill for a while before you stick your foot in your mouth again. This is just getting out of hand.

 

[PharmDstudent]

Yeah, how could anyone take that comment to be a personal attack? You are clearly speaking in general terms, not singling out anyone in particular. And you have never mistakenly taken anything to be a personal attack against you, right?

Oh, and my above post is meant in general terms and is not directed at anyone in particular.

It was meant to describe how unbelievable it is to assume that intact, female organs can never produce a child. Pregnancy is not magic. There are plenty of instances where people can get pregnant unexpectedly, eg weight loss, IUD runs dry, ovulation picks back up, etc. Infertility is not always permanent... hence... fertility drugs.

In fact, my soon-to-be second niece or nephew is in the womb despite there being an IUD along side it.

I try not to take things personally unless it's obvious.

 

[PharmDstudent]

I have an idea.... why don't you click the X button in the top right hand corner and take a chill pill for a while before you stick your foot in your mouth again. This is just getting out of hand.

I actually don't believe in most of the recent polycystic ovarian syndrome cases and think it's just something to blame female obesity on (where obesity is the main factor in infertility). So yeah...
My lifelong bff walked out of the endochronologist with a newly diagnosed case PCOS. She just so happens to be 50-75 lbs overweight.

 

[FarscapeGirl]

It's not like she's never worked before in her life... And we all pay income taxes (if you actually freakin' work!), so what's you and A4MD's deal?

Okay, I kind of understand how we got to the whole Medicaid issue, as there's the Medicaid thread a lot of us are participating in, too.

(But, what I don't quite understand is how it's assumed that I, married, with a previous degree, and in my second year of pharmacy school, would not think that there might be health problems in a pregnancy/with a newborn that would require prior planning. Or that I would need Medicaid in the first place. But I digress.)

PharmDstudent, if you aren't being sarcastic (which I honestly can't tell if you are or not), you say that SHC can know all about having an independent financial life just because of working and paying taxes, even while still being largely supported by her parents. I was supported a lot by my father through college (for which I'm very grateful), but it wasn't until I was in grad school with a salary of a stipend, then combining finances with my husband, and now being in pharmacy school with student loan debt, that I really feel like I have a pattern of my financial habits (and started doing things differently than my dad does!). And I imagine as my money situation changes over the years, my financial and investing habits will also change.

In a similar topic, I have no idea what it's like to be 60. Sure, we had an exercise in class where we wore rubber gloves, bound our knees, and wore greasy glasses. But that won't compare to actually being that age every day. I can educate myself, but it won't be the same. And imagining my elder years will be exactly like the most healthy 60, 70, and 80 y.o.'s shows I really don't understand risk and what it means to get older. SHC is certainly entitled to her own opinions, but she does sound a lot like she thinks she knows everything about life and doesn't comprehend that **** happens. A diagnosis of cancer can kill your finances, especially if your health slowly declines. There's a ton of other diseases one can have, too, and eating right and exercising will reduce your risk but never, ever eliminate it.

 

[FarscapeGirl]

It's what think. Not an insult or joke or whatever. The "senorita", "cocca", and "space camp" comments are jokes or insults.

So lets go back to this so called "right" to have children. If it's actually a right, then wouldn't the government have to assist in fertility treatments for indigent couples/women?

It's also a right to be able to own property. But the government doesn't give you property or pay for everyone to own property. Enough people want to own property and have the means to buy it, so there's not a huge amount of unowned property around (unlike, say, with the Western expansion when the government was giving out free land).

The government does plenty to encourage children (tax credits) but doesn't need to assist in fertility treatments because enough people get pregnant on their own. 50% of pregnancies are unplanned, after all. If we were all able to control our fertility and not get pregnant unless we absolutely wanted to, then the government would probably have to assist in fertility treatments and/or give lots of benefits to encourage people to have kids. That's what places like Japan, some European countries, and Russia are doing so that their age demographics aren't all screwed up by too many elderly and not enough young people.

That's actually probably the real reason our maternity leave and paternity leave are so scarce compared to other developed countries. We have so many people who are willing to make the current system work (stay home, go without pay, etc.) that we don't need to encourage people. Yes, money can do lots, but it won't make people magically appear to care for you in your old age or keep the country functional. Go ahead and read up what's going on in countries with a large percentage of elderly.

 

[FarscapeGirl]

I actually don't believe in most of the recent polycystic ovarian syndrome cases and think it's just something to blame female obesity on (where obesity is the main factor in infertility). So yeah...
My lifelong bff walked out of the endochronologist with a newly diagnosed case PCOS. She just so happens to be 50-75 lbs overweight.

So what should we blame obesity on? The cause(s) of obesity are far from known. My grad school work was in large part related to obesity. Sure, a lot of obesity has to do with calories in/calories out, but that's not all of it. Seriously, to have the same weight, if it was only the amount you ate/were active, you'd have to eat the same amount of calories every single day plus/minus the calories in one Ritz cracker. Body weight is regulated by hormonal control, genetics, epigenetics, lifestyle, maybe even viruses (yes, that's one of the hypotheses). Certain meds lead to obesity, and high-stress environments don't help, either.

It doesn't seem right to blame people for their infertility, either. Or the lack of infertility. It's true that people don't always get healthcare for obvious STD symptoms, which can lead to infertility, nor do people always use contraception, which leads to pregnancy. But, that being said, reproduction, nor the lack of it, is not controlled 100% by the individuals involved. (If it were, we probably would have died out, as after one pregnancy, many women probably wouldn't want another. ) I have a friend who tried and got pregnant on her wedding night. I have friends for whom it took over a year. I have friends who can't get pregnant, no matter how many fertility drugs they use. It's the luck of the draw, really.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Maybe it's your work that's the problem, i.e. they don't have a part-time pharmacist hired to fill in. We have a few staff members, two getting close to retirement (one technically retired but he comes in every so often) and one that's recently licensed, that help out when someone else is off for whatever reason. Vacations, sick-leave, or pregnancy leave. This way, it doesn't all go to **** when someone's off.

The other pharmacy has three part-time pharmacists that basically rotate around each other so that two are always working.

I understand your frustration with not getting guaranteed time off after shoving a baby through a very small opening of your body (so wish my husband could have the kid instead, but he keeps saying something about not having the right biology for it ), but having a kid in a stable environment for its first few months is probably a lot better for the kids' future, and your future depends on those kids, even more so if you don't have your own.

Right now, most leave is unpaid, so even if a woman does take time off, most don't take more than 1 month or so anyway. They basically need that time to recover, and there's very little childcare options for babies less than 3 months old or so. As well, most women only take 1 or 2 maternity leaves in their lives. By the time you get to kid #3, you'll most likely stay home, as childcare for more than 2 kids gets very expensive. And, working a full-time job makes it hard to take care of more than 2 kids anyway.

Again, we come to the same points of contention:

1) I don't care about your damned pregnancy. I don't know why you insist that I do. There are enough people having children. Why should I care if *you* specifically create yet another baby to exist on this planet. Especially considering that there are millions and millions of them already floating around out there without a home. It's not like they are actually some sort of precious, rare resource that only a few people can create. Again. Have you seen the Maury Povich show. Any idiot can have a baby. And frequently, they do.

2) I don't care if its unpaid, if y'all can take a legally protected 3 month, unpaid vacation whenever you damned pleased by doing a little planning 9 months in advance...I should be able to, too. Why the hell should I have to go through the motions of creating another being? It's bull****.

3) Again, no matter how much you want to talk circles around it - babies do not spontaneously generate inside the womb. Especially when considering people in the income brackets we find or will find ourselves in, there is no way possible that you can accidentally have a baby. There are so many steps along the process where you can elect to not have a child if an error in the process of contraception fails.

So, again, you are all just going to have to come to the realization that you having a baby is:

1) Annoying
2) Not special
3) Can easily, and justly, be criticized from several angles.

And its not like we are advocating for any changes in the system. We aren't. We are just saying that you can't take away our right to complain about the bull**** benefits you people are handed and annoyances you create at the expense of everyone else...which is, essentially, exactly what you are doing.

So when I say you are being annoying, selfish, and illogical when you have a baby - you just need to say, "Yeah, well, I don't care, I'm having one anyway."

That's all that needs to be discussed. You need to accept that you are annoying. But you don't even do that...you insist that its not only your right to annoy the rest of us, but to have the gall to insist that not only are you not annoying, but that we don't have the right to be annoyed towards your annoying actions. Because that's pretty much what all of you are doing. You are insisting that I don't have the right to be annoyed. But to hell with that. I draw the line at the point where you try to tell me what my opinion is.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

I actually don't believe in most of the recent polycystic ovarian syndrome cases and think it's just something to blame female obesity on (where obesity is the main factor in infertility). So yeah...
My lifelong bff walked out of the endochronologist with a newly diagnosed case PCOS. She just so happens to be 50-75 lbs overweight.

I don't have any personal experience with PCOS but do have two close friends who have it. One would be considered slightly overweight and the other is a lifelong athlete. I don't know that the evidence on PCOS and BMI is conclusive enough to say whether it's a chicken or an egg thing.

Regardless of that, there are a lot of other causes of infertility that range from completely treatable to untreatable/irreversible. It does seem, from your posts, that you've chosen to assume that I was diagnosed with PCOS (or have at least begun to focus on PCOS since your little tantrum last night), but that's incorrect. I didn't say what the cause of my infertility was because it isn't relevant.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

I draw the line at the point where you try to tell me what my opinion is.

You're entitled to be as loud/obnoxious/derisive as you want. But other posters on SDN are entitled to challenge and argue with you. If you don't want people to argue with you about your opinions on pregnancy and childrearing, then you should stay out of these threads, because it's inevitable.

I am pretty sure I've never tried to tell you what your opinion is or should be on this matter. I already know your opinion. I don't agree with it. I think it's unreasonable, and I'm not too concerned about it, to be honest. At least not enough to let it affect my childrearing and childbearing behaviors.

So if it makes you happy, yeah... I don't care if you find it annoying. I'm going to have a kid or two and my husband and I are going to make use of the legally protected benefits available to us. Those benefits are available to a large number of working Americans, but sadly, not all of them. I'm FAR more concerned about those who DON'T have access to those benefits than I am about those could use them but don't and then whine about them.

If you want maternity/paternity benefits, have a kid and use them. Your employer doesn't owe you anything if you choose not to. It's like someone who has health insurance but never files a claim demanding to be paid cash b/c other employees utilized their health benefits more he or she did. It just doesn't work that way.

 

[rph3664]

Isn't PCOS diagnosed through some kind of estrogen/testosterone ratio? It would be kind of hard to fake that.

 

[cycloketocaine]

You're entitled to be as loud/obnoxious/derisive as you want. But other posters on SDN are entitled to challenge and argue with you. If you don't want people to argue with you about your opinions on pregnancy and childrearing, then you should stay out of these threads, because it's inevitable.

I am pretty sure I've never tried to tell you what your opinion is or should be on this matter. I already know your opinion. I don't agree with it. I think it's unreasonable, and I'm not too concerned about it, to be honest. At least not enough to let it affect my childrearing and childbearing behaviors.

So if it makes you happy, yeah... I don't care if you find it annoying. I'm going to have a kid or two and my husband and I are going to make use of the legally protected benefits available to us. Those benefits are available to a large number of working Americans, but sadly, not all of them. I'm FAR more concerned about those who DON'T have access to those benefits than I am about those could use them but don't and then whine about them.

If you want maternity/paternity benefits, have a kid and use them. Your employer doesn't owe you anything if you choose not to. It's like someone who has health insurance but never files a claim demanding to be paid cash b/c other employees utilized their health benefits more he or she did. It just doesn't work that way.

How did you get a picture of all my Medicaid babies that I had to take 47 months of maternity leave for?!?!?!?

And how dare you use their picture as your avatar!!!

 

[cycloketocaine]

Isn't PCOS diagnosed through some kind of estrogen/testosterone ratio? It would be kind of hard to fake that.

Yes. One of my good friends is a 140 pound, 5 foot 6 female who could not conceive. She is far from overweight/obese. She could get pregnant, but not carry. She was found to have sky high testosterone because one ovary had PCOS. She recently got pregnant without the aid of fertility drugs despite being told that this could not happen. She now has a sweet little baby girl.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Isn't PCOS diagnosed through some kind of estrogen/testosterone ratio? It would be kind of hard to fake that.

Yes. One of my good friends is a 140 pound, 5 foot 6 female who could not conceive. She is far from overweight/obese. She could get pregnant, but not carry. She was found to have sky high testosterone because one ovary had PCOS. She recently got pregnant without the aid of fertility drugs despite being told that this could not happen. She now has a sweet little baby girl.

I never knew how it was diagnosed. I just know that my one friend that has it looks like a beach volleyball athlete, buildwise, but has acne and excessive body hair. I guess those two symptoms were what led her doctor to test for PCOS. Makes sense. I knew it was something to do with androgen hormones, just not the specifics.

How did you get a picture of all my Medicaid babies that I had to take 47 months of maternity leave for?!?!?!?

And how dare you use their picture as your avatar!!!

Well, I don't know how to tell you this... but we share at least ONE of the same Baby Daddies. Anyway, he gave me the picture! I thought it was cute so I used it!!! I have enough Medicaid babies to make a Lacrosse team, but I can never get them to hold still long enough to take a group shot.

 

[Momus]

Intentionally having kids on Medicaid, just for the sake of reproducing/passing your DNA = burden to society = trash... No, thank you!

 

[cycloketocaine]

Fixed according to some on here.....

Having kids = burden to society = trash... No, thank you!

 

[SHC1984]

I think SHC is a good person and a smart girl (and she knows I feel that way) but I also feel like she frequently comments on subjects that she has no knowledge of or experience with, without taking time to ascertain the facts or educate herself. Regardless of that, she IS a nice person.

I make the best of friends and worst of enemies...So I have been told anyways...I always try to be nice though.

Speak for yourself. I'm starting to believe that the people who say you are trolling are right after all.

PS: I have read many books on being an astronaut and flying the space shuttle. But for whatever reason, NASA won't let me in the cockpit. Since reading about something is THE SAME as actually doing it, I don't know what their problem is.

It is VERY HARD for anyone to NOT sound like a troll when talking about topics like: Medicaid, Affirmative Action, Abortion, Religion, Taxes, Money, CapitalisticvsSocialistic society, etc.

I do not support medicaid, affirmative action, religion and socialism.

I DO SUPPORT abortion, flat taxes, and a fully capitalistic society.

For people that do NOT support the above will not agree with me of course and so the debate usually go on and on from there!

I like capitalistism and I have always ADMIRE people that work hard, come up with unique ideas/products and become billionaires. Those people are the most admirable and deserve to keep all the money they make. Without a capitalistic society there will be NO reason anyone should/would come up with new ideas...since we all have to "spread the wealth" whats the point of living? Life would be SOOOO boring if everyone had the same things and the same amount of money. Competition and having the drive to succeed is what makes life exciting. The feeling of "making it" and then having the freedom to do whatever you want with your success is what makes life worth living.

 

[SHC1984]

Intentionally having kids on Medicaid, just for the sake of reproducing/passing your DNA = burden to society = trash... No, thank you!

+1

Having kids and being able to fully support them and giving them everything they need and more WITHOUT anyone else's help IS the best feeling though.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

This thread was never about having kids you can't support. It was about whether one can manage the last year of pharmacy school with a kid.

 

[SHC1984]

This thread was never about having kids you can't support. It was about whether one can manage the last year of pharmacy school with a kid.

Fair enough..I guess we went off topic here, but most would assume that a pharmacy student would NOT have the $$$ to support a baby. I guess there could be exceptions, but I don't know many pharmacy students that have zero debt and a huge savings account full of $$$. I think that is why I started talking about medicaid and people having babies without money.

If the OP was already a pharmacist and her husband was a doctor or something...then I would have congratulated them and moved on!

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Fair enough..I guess we went off topic here, but most would assume that a pharmacy student would NOT have the $$$ to support a baby. I guess there could be exceptions, but I don't know many pharmacy students that have zero debt and a huge savings account full of $$$. I think that is why I started talking about medicaid and people having babies without money.

If the OP was already a pharmacist and her husband was a doctor or something...then I would have congratulated them and moved on!

Well, you don't need zero debt and a huge savings account to be able to take care of a child. That's silly.

It's statements like that one that cause me to think you might be trolling or something. No one could REALLY believe that only those with zero debt, lots of money in savings and the income of a doctor/pharmacist can take care of a child. Plenty of people do so with a lot less money that that. Just like what you said about "everyone should be filthy rich by the time they retire." It's just not accurate or believable.

 

[cycloketocaine]

Well, you don't need zero debt and a huge savings account to be able to take care of a child. That's silly.

It's statements like that one that cause me to think you might be trolling or something. No one could REALLY believe that only those with zero debt, lots of money in savings and the income of a doctor/pharmacist can take care of a child. Plenty of people do so with a lot less money that that. Just like what you said about "everyone should be filthy rich by the time they retire." It's just not accurate or believable.

I've decided she's either a troll or an idiot. If it's the latter, one day she will be smacked so hard by life it will make her do a 360.

 

[rxlea]

My partner and I are going to try before I am done with pharm school. I make 20K part time and she is an adjunct professor and makes about the same. I don't see why a family can't support a child on 40-45K a year plus whatever loans we get for school. People get by with less than that. I just think it's silly to assume that people can't possibly support children when they aren't making the salary you suggest. If that were the case, MOST people couldn't have children. Once again, you are talking about something you know nothing about and that's just sad. At least WVU's opinion, albeit nothing more than whining IMO, has some basis/merit considering he does have life and work experience to make such a complaint.

 

[cycloketocaine]

My partner and I are going to try before I am done with pharm school. I make 20K part time and she is an adjunct professor and makes about the same. I don't see why a family can't support a child on 40-45K a year plus whatever loans we get for school. People get by with less than that. I just think it's silly to assume that people can't possibly support children when they aren't making the salary you suggest. If that were the case, MOST people couldn't have children. Once again, you are talking about something you know nothing about and that's just sad. At least WVU's opinion, albeit nothing more than whining IMO, has some basis/merit considering he does have life and work experience to make such a complaint.

I have two kids, my husband has a steady job, and we support our family very comfortably on around 60-70 K per year. And, ZOMG!!! We aren't on Medicaid!

You don't have to be a doctor to have happy, well cared for children. You just can't be an idiot for a parent.

 

[SHC1984]

Well, you don't need zero debt and a huge savings account to be able to take care of a child. That's silly.

It's statements like that one that cause me to think you might be trolling or something. No one could REALLY believe that only those with zero debt, lots of money in savings and the income of a doctor/pharmacist can take care of a child. Plenty of people do so with a lot less money that that. Just like what you said about "everyone should be filthy rich by the time they retire." It's just not accurate or believable.

Maybe I do exaggerate. I will be more clear next time...

If you want a baby you should have at least your student loans paid off and around 10K in your savings. You can have a mortage payment that is fine. If you and your husband both have a stable career and you only have a mortage payment every month and around 10K in your savings etc. I would think that is good enough. I just don't see how anyone with 150K+ in student loans and even more in mortage payments or worst with NO house and NO savings can afford to have a baby. Babies=A ton of money!

Older people should own a home when they retire and their 401K plans should have a good amount of money that would last them until they died. I guess I don't mean filthy rich as in billionaires, but I mean they should have enough money to live comfortably and not depend on anyone else for cash. I mean if you have been paying into your 401K since you were 25 yo and have a savings and have some money put away in investments and you own a home and you don't have anymore debt...that alone should allow a person to live well off.

 

[cycloketocaine]

Maybe I do exaggerate. I will be more clear next time...

If you want a baby you should have at least your student loans paid off and around 10K in your savings. You can have a mortage payment that is fine. If you and your husband both have a stable career and you only have a mortage payment every month and around 10K in your savings etc. I would think that is good enough. I just don't see how anyone with 150K+ in student loans and even more in mortage payments or worst with NO house and NO savings can afford to have a baby. Babies=A ton of money!

Older people should own a home when they retire and their 401K plans should have a good amount of money that would last them until they died. I guess I don't mean filthy rich as in billionaires, but I mean they should have enough money to live comfortably and not depend on anyone else for cash. I mean if you have been paying into your 401K since you were 25 yo and have a savings and have some money put away in investments and you own a home and you don't have anymore debt...that alone should allow a person to live well off.

Student loans = Medicaid Baby

 

[SHC1984]

I've decided she's either a troll or an idiot. If it's the latter, one day she will be smacked so hard by life it will make her do a 360.

I don't know about you but I prefer to raise my children like HUMAN beings and not like cattle.

 

[cycloketocaine]

Nevermind, I'm going to spend time with my non-Medicaid having pharmacy school born babies instead of arguing with a complete idiot.

 

[rxlea]

Shc that's ridiculous. My partner and I were pulling in 60-70K pre pharm school. You know where we were living? In a 3300 sq ft house over looking a golf course in a ritzy part of town. We had 3 cars + a motorcycle and we took vacations. How can you say cycloketocaine is raising kids "like cattle" on that salary? You are trippin girl. I don't think you even know how much money that is. Which is ironic, don't you think?

 

[All4MyDaughter]

If you want a baby you should have at least your student loans paid off and around 10K in your savings. You can have a mortage payment that is fine. If you and your husband both have a stable career and you only have a mortage payment every month and around 10K in your savings etc. I would think that is good enough. I just don't see how anyone with 150K+ in student loans and even more in mortage payments or worst with NO house and NO savings can afford to have a baby. Babies=A ton of money!

Um. So I should have had an abortion when I discovered I was pregnant last September? I don't meet your criteria for being able to afford a baby. Well, now it's too late for that, so what should I do? Sell the baby after he is born?

 

[FruitFly]

.... when I discovered I was pregnant last September? ...

You're having a baby? Didn't know. Good news, Congrats.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

You're having a baby? Didn't know. Good news, Congrats.

Yes, due in May! Thanks!

 

[SHC1984]

Um. So I should have had an abortion when I discovered I was pregnant last September? I don't meet your criteria for being able to afford a baby. Well, now it's too late for that, so what should I do? Sell the baby after he is born?

Your husband has a good paying job though. So you'll be fine. You mention you didn't have to work if you didn't want to! Lucky!

Shc that's ridiculous. My partner and I were pulling in 60-70K pre pharm school. You know where we were living? In a 3300 sq ft house over looking a golf course in a ritzy part of town. We had 3 cars + a motorcycle and we took vacations. How can you say cycloketocaine is raising kids "like cattle" on that salary? You are trippin girl. I don't think you even know how much money that is. Which is ironic, don't you think?

I posted that before I saw her other comment about her salary. I never set a salary requirement. I talked more about DEBT than anything else. If a couple have very little to no debt then they are in good shape. Salary is less important than debt. Most (not all) pharmacy students have over 100K in debt, do not own a home, and do not have savings. All I am saying is if you are trying to pay down 150K in student loans, 400K in mortage payment, 30K in car payment, no savings, etc. it doesn't look like a good time to have a baby. Do people really think it's a great time to have a baby with the above scenrio?

If you are making 60K a year, but have little to no debt then that is fine. Personally I prefer to pay down my debt before obtaining another one...a baby is a huge potiential debt in my eyes.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Your husband has a good paying job though. So you'll be fine. You mention you didn't have to work if you didn't want to! Lucky!

Yes but I have about 160K in debt. Once I start paying on that, I'll have to work at least part time. And would not meet your criteria. I have not had to work during school but that is going to change when the loan payments start.

I'm just trying to point out that your requirments for when it is "right" to have a child are arbitrary and not necessarily based in reality. They may be your opinion, but they are not an informed opinion. Do you really think you know how much money is needed to take care of a child? I know that I do, because I've already done it.

 

[Jabberwocky12]

On a fundamental level I can see where SHC is coming from. While she has some arbitrary and somewhat unrealistic dollar values for all parents, I think she has the underlying ideals.

Basically don't bite off more than you can chew; if you are drowning in debt to the point that you have to make choices between your own needs (not wants) and the child's needs, then it's not the best time to have a kid. As for not having any debt, PSSSH. You can easily have 160k in debt and pay that off over 10+ years making only a few hundred dollar a month payment until finances get better. I understand you will have more finances but you can easily move things from a 5-10 year plan for payments to a 10-15 year plan without sacrificing much in quality of life. Yes, I would be paying a few thousand more in interest and would have that debt over me, but I would consider that just another cost of a child and move on; it would be worth the money to have a kid when I want to have the kid.

So yeah SHC, I agree with what you believe in here, but I think that you are somewhat unrealistic in what a parent should have first. I think part of that comes in from seeing children and parents suffering first and not having the things that you stated, and by having that minimum requirement you set they would be fine all around. But that is part of the learning experience and (IMO) if a parent can support a child and make sure they have food, clothes, and medicine then they should have a kid.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

My problem with her numbers and requirements are that they are pulled out of thin air and not based in any sort of reality. I've been a grown up and supported myself 100% for half of my life now. I've cared for a child and understand the financial costs. You don't see me sitting around making up numbers or telling other people what they need in their savings accounts in order to be good enough to procreate.

 

[delano2000]

Yes, due in May! Thanks!

I hope the baby is born around my birthday.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

I hope the baby is born around my birthday.

I have some flexibility in picking the date, so I'm accepting requests/suggestions/bribes!

 

[delano2000]

I have some flexibility in picking the date, so I'm accepting requests/suggestions/bribes!

Well I am requesting the middle of May.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Well I am requesting the middle of May.

My window is around the third week of May!

 

[delano2000]

My window is around the third week of May!

Beginning of the third week works for me.

 

[FarscapeGirl]

Your husband has a good paying job though. So you'll be fine. You mention you didn't have to work if you didn't want to! Lucky!



I posted that before I saw her other comment about her salary. I never set a salary requirement. I talked more about DEBT than anything else. If a couple have very little to no debt then they are in good shape. Salary is less important than debt. Most (not all) pharmacy students have over 100K in debt, do not own a home, and do not have savings. All I am saying is if you are trying to pay down 150K in student loans, 400K in mortage payment, 30K in car payment, no savings, etc. it doesn't look like a good time to have a baby. Do people really think it's a great time to have a baby with the above scenrio?

If you are making 60K a year, but have little to no debt then that is fine. Personally I prefer to pay down my debt before obtaining another one...a baby is a huge potiential debt in my eyes.

Stop. Just stop. Yes, no one should decide to have a kid when they barely can support themselves.

But if you had actually read and understood all those financial books, you'd realize student loan debt is considered different debt than credit card or car loan debt. Both student loan debt and mortgage debt are more considered as good types of loans to have, as you're bettering your job opportunities or have an investment in property (although after the home loan mortgage crisis, that could be debatable).

I do not plan to have a kid, then take out a huge mortgage, and then add a car loan for an expensive car on top of it, especially if my husband and I do not have stable jobs that pay decently well.

And while it's all fine and good to wait until you have all your student loans paid off and plenty of savings in the bank, I'd be over 35 and possibly over 40. A woman's fertility declines with age, and I don't want to spend $30,000 just to have a kid through fertility treatments or to adopt a kid. Not a very sound financial investment.

Be glad that your parents are helping you keep your debt amount low while you're pursuing your dream so that you can fulfill all your requirements before having children. If my kid were spouting this stuff, I'd throw them out on their own so they'd figure out how life actually works.

 

[FarscapeGirl]

Again, we come to the same points of contention:

1) I don't care about your damned pregnancy. I don't know why you insist that I do. There are enough people having children. Why should I care if *you* specifically create yet another baby to exist on this planet. Especially considering that there are millions and millions of them already floating around out there without a home. It's not like they are actually some sort of precious, rare resource that only a few people can create. Again. Have you seen the Maury Povich show. Any idiot can have a baby. And frequently, they do.

2) I don't care if its unpaid, if y'all can take a legally protected 3 month, unpaid vacation whenever you damned pleased by doing a little planning 9 months in advance...I should be able to, too. Why the hell should I have to go through the motions of creating another being? It's bull****.

3) Again, no matter how much you want to talk circles around it - babies do not spontaneously generate inside the womb. Especially when considering people in the income brackets we find or will find ourselves in, there is no way possible that you can accidentally have a baby. There are so many steps along the process where you can elect to not have a child if an error in the process of contraception fails.

So, again, you are all just going to have to come to the realization that you having a baby is:

1) Annoying
2) Not special
3) Can easily, and justly, be criticized from several angles.

And its not like we are advocating for any changes in the system. We aren't. We are just saying that you can't take away our right to complain about the bull**** benefits you people are handed and annoyances you create at the expense of everyone else...which is, essentially, exactly what you are doing.

So when I say you are being annoying, selfish, and illogical when you have a baby - you just need to say, "Yeah, well, I don't care, I'm having one anyway."

That's all that needs to be discussed. You need to accept that you are annoying. But you don't even do that...you insist that its not only your right to annoy the rest of us, but to have the gall to insist that not only are you not annoying, but that we don't have the right to be annoyed towards your annoying actions. Because that's pretty much what all of you are doing. You are insisting that I don't have the right to be annoyed. But to hell with that. I draw the line at the point where you try to tell me what my opinion is.

Go ahead and be annoyed that people have children. All I'm saying is that if you live in a country that has screwed-up age demographics, you might see things a little differently.

By the way, if I decided to adopt one of the random children around, you realize I'd still be eligible to leave work for three months to adjust to having the kid around, correct? You get annoyed at that, too? Or when people leave work to care for a dying parent?

I'm sorry, but it's not that easy to adopt, and I don't want to do it. I've seen enough horror stories with adoption that I want to have no part of doing it myself when there's an alternative. Yes, there are some good stories, too. But having a kid is enough of a crap shoot as it is, I don't want to raise a kid that I don't know what kind of environment it was in before it was born and came to live with me. I respect those that do decide to go this route, and if I end up not being able to have kids, I might consider adoption, as that would be the only route to being a parent. But I'd certainly think long and hard about it.

So, in your mind, I'm going to go ahead and be "selfish and annoying" and have a kid. You can certainly feel that way, but don't expect me to feel that that's what I'm doing.

Don't worry; I'll send you private messages detailing the entire pregnancy. Since, you know, we live on opposite coasts and the fact that I have a child will in no way effect your life, except maybe for me posting more in the middle of the night on SDN when I'm up with a crying baby.