Harvard versus Vanderbilt (scholarship)

[whosawreck]

Hola amigos/as! I’m so happy to have gotten into these amazing schools but I am having such a hard time deciding which one to choose. I really want to pursue academics in general surgery at the moment and want to match to an elite residency program in the northeast.



Vanderbilt

+ Full tuition scholarship, and would graduate debt free

+ Great student culture

+ Awesome STEP Scores (same as Harvard)

- Not as strong a reputation in academics, match list isn’t nearly as impressive as Harvard's

- Don’t love the idea of living in the south (URM), though did enjoy Nashville



Harvard

+ It’s Harvard

+ Better options for academics

+ I’m very prestige conscious, and would feel good telling people where I go to school

- Far more expensive (would take out 150k in loans)

- Not as friendly



I’m trying to convince myself that Harvard is worth 150,000 dollars more than Vanderbilt so that I can open the most doors for myself in the future but I’m aware that simply taking on debt is difficult for those trying to go into lesser-paid academic positions. Any advice would be helpful, Gracias!

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[meronebib]

Look, it's very clear from your post that you want Harvard, and I appreciate your honesty with being very prestige-conscious. Harvard will help you more than Vanderbilt if you're looking for an elite residency in the northeast. 150k of debt is still below the national median and should be below what you expected to take on before applying. Go to Harvard, and congratulations.

 

[Quantal Reasoning]

General surgery isn't as competitive as you think. Vandy can and will get you into any program in the country. I would take the 150k and run.

 

[freedoctor17]

Normally I'd say take the money and run but your post makes it sound like you'd regret not going to Harvard and 150k doesn't seem like a terrible amount to pay off as a surgeon. If you don't think you'd regret it though I'd 100% say go to vandy.

I'm also probably a little biased being accepted to Vandy and rejected from Harvard but if I'd gotten full tuition from vandy I'd just have withdrawn from almost all my other options.

 

[deleted915325]

Once your in the midst of school I highly doubt you will have regrets. Vandy is a great school and can get you into any gen surgery program. $150 k isn’t that much in the long run but it does accumulate interest. Can’t really go wrong here either way

 

[Upstage]

You will always wonder what you could’ve been at Harvard.

 

[freedoctor17]

You will always wonder what you could’ve been at Harvard.

Normally I'd agree if it weren't for this line "I’m very prestige conscious, and would feel good telling people where I go to school".

At least they're honest with themselves.

Edit: oops quoted the wrong post, meant to quote the person abpve you

 

[Quantal Reasoning]

Yo @efle you got anything to say about this?

 

[efle]

I try to be a pretty data-driven decision maker so here's what I can come up with for OP.

2019, 2018 and 2017 Vandy match lists for General Surg:

Barnes/WashU
Vandy
Vandy
Vandy
Vandy
Vandy
NYU
Pitt
Indiana

Johns Hopkins
Vandy
UCSD

UCSF
Vanderbilt

Here's 2018 and 2017 for HMS (they haven't uploaded their 2019 yet):

Vandy
MGH
MGH
MGH
MGH
Stanford

Yale
UCLA
Michigan
MGH
MGH
BWH
Georgetown
Beth Israel
University of Washington

So - keeping in mind that Vandy is considered to be in the top handful of surgery programs alongside places like Harvard or Hopkins or Michigan - these lists both appear fantastic. There's rampant inbreeding in both cases, so if you want to start your career in the Northeast vs in the South, that could be significant for you. Otherwise, doesn't look like Vandy people are having any trouble landing great GenSurg spots, especially at their home institution. If your main concern was just to match a top surgical residency, with no big regional constraints, that full ride would be looking too good to turn down.

But for you, it's a little different. If this was something like $150k Harvard vs free Penn, or free Hopkins, I would say it's a no-brainer to dodge the debt and turn HMS down. In this situation though, there's a big regional difference in match trends and certainly some prestige difference between the names. So if you see yourself starting your career at one of the Harvard affiliated hospitals, and you're fine with delaying retirement by a couple years in order to drop the H bomb on people, it looks like you should don some crimson.

Oh and last thing, might be worth telling the Harvard financial dept about the Vandy full ride. I know they technically don't match offers but it can't hurt to try. Sometimes places will "recalculate your need aid with additional information" and magically come up with some more $$.

 

[puahate]

Vandy

 

[rball]

Based on everything you’ve said, I’d go with Harvard. You mention you’re prestige conscious and want to match into elite northeast gen surg program. The last thing you want to do going into med school is to have regrets about your choice; it sounds like if you picked Vandy you would have regrets.

You are correct that Harvard will make it a bit easier for a career in academics and a bit easier to match into elite residency programs. It’s an unpopular opinion around here, but Harvard is really in a league of its own in this regard - typically their worst matches are still at top 15/20 programs, and their name will carry you in academic medicine careers even when compared to schools of similar caliber. This is just my experience and my opinion, and not a knock on any other school.

$150K is significant but you will pay it off on a gen surg salary fairly quickly/easily. Now if you think you’d be much happier at Vandy because of the student culture there, it’s a different story and I would recommend Vandy. But if that is not the case, I think Harvard is the better option for you.

 

[Melanogaster]

Vandy. You can match anywhere from Vandy, and $150,000 is a lot of money to turn down for no difference in outcome.

 

[efle]

Based on everything you’ve said, I’d go with Harvard. You mention you’re prestige conscious and want to match into elite northeast gen surg program. The last thing you want to do going into med school is to have regrets about your choice; it sounds like if you picked Vandy you would have regrets.

You are correct that Harvard will make it a bit easier for a career in academics and a bit easier to match into elite residency programs. It’s an unpopular opinion around here, but Harvard is really in a league of its own in this regard - typically their worst matches are still at top 15/20 programs, and their name will carry you in academic medicine careers even when compared to schools of similar caliber. This is just my experience and my opinion, and not a knock on any other school.

$150K is significant but you will pay it off on a gen surg salary fairly quickly/easily. Now if you think you’d be much happier at Vandy because of the student culture there, it’s a different story and I would recommend Vandy. But if that is not the case, I think Harvard is the better option for you.

There's really no schools where that's true re: worst matches. On those recent lists I looked at above there were multiple SOAP peeps that had matched only a prelim year. Same is true at Hopkins. No place can protect you from yourself fully if you buy a little too much into the invincibility

 

[lalalallala]

I think it is pretty clear that Vandy is great and OP could get whatever gen surg residency from Vandy but OP wants to be able to tell people they went to Harvard. There's not really any logic that you can give people looking for prestige in a school name

 

[rball]

There's really no schools where that's true re: worst matches. On those recent lists I looked at above there were multiple SOAP peeps that had matched only a prelim year. Same is true at Hopkins. No place can protect you from yourself fully if you buy a little too much into the invincibility

I definitely agree, the most important part is always your success as a medical student, and if you screw up at Harvard you are still in trouble. I just meant generally speaking from my experience, Harvard students are given a bump, such that a vast majority (almost all) of their students who don’t SOAP match into a top 15/20 program. I also agree with your earlier post that Harvard is likely the better option for this individual’s stated goals and preferences, even though Vandy would still serve him well also.


As an aside, I really diagree with the above poster “lalalallala” trying to ridicule OP for looking for prestige. There is nothing wrong with being proud of the name on your diploma-that is something that sticks with you for life, has a tremendous impact on your future career, and is something that you can never do over. It’s a once in lifetime opportunity that for some people may be worth it and for some may not be.

 

[crimson-cat]

I'm a bit biased, but sounds like you want to come to Harvard. It's hard to imagine how many doors HMS opens for you until you're here, but I'd say it's easily worth the money if you think you want to pursue any semi non-traditional path in medicine (research, industry, policy, etc..). The Harvard/MIT/Brigham/BI/BWH and all associated grad schools and research programs just creates an insane environment for finding amazing opportunities.

On the cautionary side, I would caution that Boston may not be as diverse as it makes itself out to be. Longwood feels especially isolated from the Latino community, and is probably not too different in that sense from Nashville. Also while you'll be wooed during Revisit, the "not as friendly" vibe you got was real. HMS opens a lot of doors, but there's not a lot of effort to help you find them, so you need to be motivated and forward to make the connections you want to make. Good luck with the decision and maybe I'll catch you in a couple weeks.

 

[MD34289403]

Vanderbilt is also a great school, but if you are going into a field that pays well such as surgery, 150K won't make that much of a difference in the long run even if you do go into academia considering the incredible prestige and connections of Harvard on the East Coast. If you are worried about prestige, you can hardly get better than Harvard and you will have that degree for the rest of your life!

 

[efle]

Vanderbilt is also a great school, but if you are going into a field that pays well such as surgery, 150K won't make that much of a difference in the long run even if you do go into academia considering the incredible prestige and connections of Harvard on the East Coast. If you are worried about prestige, you can hardly get better than Harvard and you will have that degree for the rest of your life!

Bruh, 150k compounding for the length of surgical residency absolutely does have an impact on an academic surgeon's financials for years after finishing training

 

[MD34289403]

This could be paid off shortly after residency with a surgeon's salary. Some people choose a much greater cost difference to go to a school like Harvard or Hopkins

 

[efle]

This could be paid off shortly after residency with a surgeon's salary. Some people choose a much greater cost difference to go to a school like Harvard or Hopkins

I personally go to one of those schools, am taking 150k-200k to do so, am planning to match a well compensated specialty, and will still have a significant impact from the loans.

The math isn't as simple as 150k loans versus 400k salary = easily paid.

The math is 150k loans that compound to over double that much during a long residency and repayment, and so the cost is more like ~300k. That 300k is really an opportunity cost that you could've put into stocks or other investments at ~7% ROI, conservatively.

Plot things out 20 years and that initial 300k is now more than a million and would, without a doubt, change the timing of financial independence by years.

 

[MD34289403]

I personally go to one of those schools, am taking 150k-200k to do so, am planning to match a well compensated specialty, and will still have a significant impact from the loans.

The math isn't as simple as 150k loans versus 400k salary = easily paid.

The math is 150k loans that compound to over double that much during a long residency and repayment, and so the cost is more like ~300k. That 300k is really an opportunity cost that you could've put into stocks or other investments at ~7% ROI, conservatively.

Plot things out 20 years and that initial 300k is now more than a million and would, without a doubt, change the timing of financial independence by years.

I think those are a lot of good points, but if you don't spend outrageously, you will have plenty of money twenty years into being a surgeon. For some people, the prestige of a different school might be worth it especially going into academia to carry that name for your entire career.

 

[efle]

I think those are a lot of good points, but if you don't spend outrageously, you will have plenty of money twenty years into being a surgeon. For some people, the prestige of a different school might be worth it especially going into academia to carry that name for your entire career.

Yeah, and I wish it was presented this way more often on SDN.

Ask someone, "Would you be willing to go to Vandy to retire 5 years younger?" and a lot more would pick Vandy. Imaginary funny money loan numbers don't carry that kind of tangible heft for most college kids, but they should.

 

[MD34289403]

Yeah, and I wish it was presented this way more often on SDN.

Ask someone, "Would you be willing to go to Vandy to retire 5 years younger?" and a lot more would pick Vandy. Imaginary funny money loan numbers don't carry that kind of tangible heft for most college kids, but they should.

That's a really good point. Some people value prestige more, and some people would value the actual money more. Some people might be more swayed by retiring early as well, but there are also doctors that continue to practice when they are quite older than others. I think this is a decision that must be made by each applicant.

 

[Dr. Anonymouss]

I voted Vandy, but seeing the way you speak about Harvard it’s clear that the prestige of that school is worth the 150,000 to you so go to Harvard. Congrats!

 

[MedStudent2301]

no wrong choice here Congrats!

 

[Pluto98]

I personally go to one of those schools, am taking 150k-200k to do so, am planning to match a well compensated specialty, and will still have a significant impact from the loans.

The math isn't as simple as 150k loans versus 400k salary = easily paid.

The math is 150k loans that compound to over double that much during a long residency and repayment, and so the cost is more like ~300k. That 300k is really an opportunity cost that you could've put into stocks or other investments at ~7% ROI, conservatively.

Plot things out 20 years and that initial 300k is now more than a million and would, without a doubt, change the timing of financial independence by years.

It only becomes a million if you pay it off slowly. In reality, you can probably pay it off in 3-4 years after residency. 400k salary = 230k post taxes. Live on 130k, pay 100k per year and pay it down in 3 years. 130k a year is still a decent quality of life, especially in a low cost of living area.

 

[efle]

It only becomes a million if you pay it off slowly. In reality, you can probably pay it off in 3-4 years after residency. 400k salary = 230k post taxes. Live on 130k, pay 100k per year and pay it down in 3 years. 130k a year is still a decent quality of life, especially in a low cost of living area.

The >1MM is if you invested the 300k in the first years of your career instead of paying down loans, not what the total loan cost was

 

[Pluto98]

The >1MM is if you invested the 300k in the first years of your career instead of paying down loans, not what the total loan cost was

Sure, but you can make the same argument about anything you purchase. A 5 dollar coffee today really costs 38 dollars 30 years from now.

 

[Splenda88]

Harvard
Harvard and
Harvaaard

 

[efle]

Sure, but you can make the same argument about anything you purchase. A 5 dollar coffee today really costs 38 dollars 30 years from now.

Completely agree. I don't spend anything right now that I wouldn't be willing to pay 4x as much for when I'm all grown up. But, I've been living that way since I was 18 anyways, since every dollar I've lived off of has been from Uncle Sam at high interest.

 

[Pluto98]

Completely agree. I don't spend anything right now that I wouldn't be willing to pay 4x as much for when I'm all grown up. But, I've been living that way since I was 18 anyways, since every dollar I've lived off of has been from Uncle Sam at high interest.

The thing is that the 38 dollars 30 years from now is completely equivalent to the coffee today. In terms of value, neither is greater than the other. So the real question is, are you willing to live on 130k a year after residency for 3-4 years to pay back your loans? Also, dont forget to take into account inflation with your interest.

 

[efle]

The thing is that the 38 dollars 30 years from now is completely equivalent to the coffee today. In terms of value, neither is greater than the other. So the real question is, are you willing to live on 130k a year after residency for 3-4 years to pay back your loans? Also, dont forget to take into account inflation with your interest.

Huh? These loan interest rates are considerably above inflation, like 3-4x above inflation. My coffee today becomes much, much more expensive than just what inflation would tack onto the price in the next decades.

 

[Engrailed]

Sure, but you can make the same argument about anything you purchase. A 5 dollar coffee today really costs 38 dollars 30 years from now.

as an aside, are you saying that coffee is going to be $38 for a cup in 2050???

tell me this isnt so.

 

[Pluto98]

Huh? These loan interest rates are considerably above inflation, like 3-4x above inflation. My coffee today becomes much, much more expensive than just what inflation would tack onto the price in the next decades.

I agree. Inflation minimizes the perceived cost however. Not fully but partially. As an example, I am likely to graduate with 250k in loans in 13 years from both undergrad and med school. The actual value of that money is approximately 195k in todays dollars. So I am really looking at 195k in loans not 250k.

 

[Pluto98]

as an aside, are you saying that coffee is going to be $38 for a cup in 2050???

tell me this isnt so.

Lol nope. It will cost approximately 11 dollars in 2050.

 

[Engrailed]

Lol nope. It will cost approximately 11 dollars in 2050.

phew thank goodness. I can sleep well

 

[efle]

I agree. Inflation minimizes the perceived cost however. Not fully but partially. As an example, I am likely to graduate with 250k in loans in 13 years from both undergrad and med school. The actual value of that money is approximately 195k in todays dollars. So I am really looking at 195k in loans not 250k.

Ah, gotcha. The principle I meant to illustrate was that buying a coffee today, versus buying half a dozen coffees in the 2040s, will each have about the same impact on my net worth at retirement. For that reason, I brew my own coffee.

 

[Pluto98]

Ah, gotcha. The principle I meant to illustrate was that buying a coffee today, versus buying half a dozen coffees in the 2040s, will each have about the same impact on my net worth at retirement. For that reason, I brew my own coffee.

I take it you are the type to choose the 30 year payment plan for the powerball vs the immediate payment lol.

 

[efle]

I take it you are the type to choose the 30 year payment plan for the powerball vs the immediate payment lol.

Yeah, though for my generation there's not a lot to be gained, since even the refinance rates are 3-4%.

My room mate's father has old med school loans with an interest rate lower than inflation. He literally loses money by paying his loan down and makes money by dragging it out. He's been making buku bucks in private practice for decades and still has a significant chunk left.

That's the real dream right there.

 

[Pluto98]

Yeah, though for my generation there's not a lot to be gained, since even the refinance rates are 3-4%.

My room mate's father has old med school loans with an interest rate lower than inflation. He literally loses money by paying his loan down and makes money by dragging it out. He's been making buku bucks in private practice for decades and still has a significant chunk left.

That's the real dream right there.

My god!