Guess the emergency physician charge for my recent ED visit!

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Background: I have eosinophilic esophagitis and am prone to strictures/food impaction. The other week one bite into a tasty ribeye I had grilled for dinner I was plugged. My GI doc is a buddy, but it was after hours and he was out of town. Therefore, to the local ER I went. He texted the on call GI to let them know I was coming.

The ER team could not have been nicer, nurse and doc etc. I was promptly put back into a room and an IV was started. My case was delayed due to an ectopic pregnancy and appy the anesthesia folks had to do first, but a few hours later I was good to go.

Today I got my bill. So let’s have a guessing game. (Obviously as is the case with my patients I know the doc had nothing to do with what the charges were).

The categories:

1) physician charge
2) portion my insurance (BCBS through my wife) payed
3) my responsible portion


Will post the answers later to give folks time to guess.

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Doc fee - $200
Hospital facility fee - $5000
BCBS pay - $1500
You paid $3800 out of pocket.
 
1) Physician charge: $1,300
2) Insurance covered: $150
3) Your responsibility : $1,150
 
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Physician charge: $1,700
Negotiated/contractual rate billed to insurance: $425
Your responsibility: $75

This is all highly variable. If you were treated at a large CMG owned by one of the large capital funds, then you could be charged 3 times the normal charge. If you were treated at a university, your charge could be $500 less than what I've quoted.

Sorry that you have eosinophilic esophagitis. Have you been tested by an allergist? I found out I was allergic to eggs. At first, I was erroneously told I was allergic to English peas and potatoes. Kept eating eggs until I had trouble swallowing one day in Vegas after eating macarons. I thought it was just acid reflux. Following week I ate eggs from the hospital cafeteria and full on anaphylaxed while at work requiring epi, steroids, Benadryl, Pepcid, etc. Cut those out and haven't had any problems since. I do have to carry an EpiPen now though.
 
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Physician charge: $1,700
Negotiated/contractual rate billed to insurance: $425
Your responsibility: $75

Sorry that you have eosinophilic esophagitis. Have you been tested by an allergist? I found out I was allergic to eggs. At first, I was erroneously told I was allergic to English peas and potatoes. Kept eating eggs until I had trouble swallowing one day in Vegas after eating macarons. I thought it was just acid reflux. Following week I ate eggs from the hospital cafeteria and full on anaphylaxed while at work requiring epi, steroids, Benadryl, Pepcid, etc. Cut those out and haven't had any problems since. I do have to carry an EpiPen now though.
I was. Blood tests showed possible mild wheat and dairy allergies. Try to avoid them but, pizza.
 
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I was. Blood tests showed possible mild wheat and dairy allergies. Try to avoid them but, pizza.
Pizza is about as addictive as crack... especially one we have here that makes an awesome pizza of Canadian ham, green peppers, pineapple, sunflower seeds, mozarella, provolone, pizza sauce, and sweet Thai chili sauce. My mouth is watering thinking about it and I just finished dinner. LOL
 
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It is hard to say, but I will take a crack at it. How is there any way for us to know what kind of insurance you wife has. It could be a super high deductible or a government concierge that pays for everything.

1) physician charge - ER charge is likely a level 5 = $1200, ER facility charge assuming they dropped an IV/labs = 5K. Admission at night for a procedure/anesthesia/post op $40K
2) portion my insurance (BCBS through my wife) payed = Impossible to know given the deductible part but I will take a stab at a high deductible so they discounted everything to about 10K so paid nothing.
3) my responsible portion $10K which is your coinsurance, deductible +1k ER copay so Ill stab at 11k.
 
It is hard to say, but I will take a crack at it. How is there any way for us to know what kind of insurance you wife has. It could be a super high deductible or a government concierge that pays for everything.

1) physician charge - ER charge is likely a level 5 = $1200, ER facility charge assuming they dropped an IV/labs = 5K. Admission at night for a procedure/anesthesia/post op $40K
2) portion my insurance (BCBS through my wife) payed = Impossible to know given the deductible part but I will take a stab at a high deductible so they discounted everything to about 10K so paid nothing.
3) my responsible portion $10K which is your coinsurance, deductible +1k ER copay so Ill stab at 11k.
Why would he be admitted? This is a procedure that is done and patient is discharged. Admitting and delaying esophageal food disimpactions has led to EMTALA fines for delay in stabilizing the patient. Remember, CMS views stabilization not like we do -- it's not about the vital signs.
 
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5000 at least man to be an insurance company with no liability but all the profits
 
Thanks for playing folks.

Here are the answers:

1) $1025
2) $111
3 $19!


My wife’s insurance is pretty great.

All told I was out under $700 for the whole ordeal.
(My portion of the Anesthesia and GI bills were less than $100, facility fees less than $500).

It’s crazy to me having that insurance led to such a lower cost than someone without any or a less generous plan.
 
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At my shop, esophageal food impactions generally get observation status. GI is quite busy and getting an urgent but not emergent endoscopy case can take several hours.
EMTALA 100% applies to observation patients. Admitted patients usually (but not always) don't have EMTALA obligations unless CMS can show that the patient was admitted instead of observation status to avoid EMTALA implications.

If you admit a patient with an esophageal food impaction, they aspirate or have a complication, and if the patient or family so pursues, you'll find yourself staring down an EMTALA violation that has precedent.

In one EMTALA fine, a hospital didn't have a GI doc on call to perform an EGD for an elderly lady with an esophageal food impaction. So the ER did what any of us would've done: they transferred the patient to a facility that did have a GI on call and ability to do the EGD. The patient aspirated in the ambulance, became profoundly hypoxemic, suffered an asystolic cardiac arrest, and ultimately died. The transferring hospital and ED physician were both found to be in violation of EMTALA because the ENT on call at that facility had credentials to perform an EGD even though he had not done one in >10 years and wasn't even contacted during this case. CMS and OIG viewed that because there was a specialist credentialed to do the EGD, the EGD should have been done at the referring facility and the patient never transferred. After the EMTALA violation, all of the nitty gritty became discoverable because the hospital was put on a 23-day fast track to losing ability to participate in Medicare. This resulted in a large settlement for the patient's family. CMS will get 50-100 charts they identify of similar cases (to see if it's your usual practice), nursing staffing rosters for the prior 90 days, physician staffing rosters for the prior 30 days, and the on-call schedules for the prior 30 days. They will look at credentialing of multiple specialities if it's relevant. This is how they found that the ENT's core credentials included EGD (which was in place not really to perform an EGD, but in place to allow an EGD to be performed during trach procedures).

CMS views stabilization as within a reasonable degree of medical certainty, no material deterioration should occur during a transfer or while the patient is in observation status. Sometimes stabilization requires days to weeks, and the general consensus that a true inpatient admission voids EMTALA obligations has been challenged recently. There's even been cases where patients were deemed unstable because they had "significant pain" upon discharge from the emergency department. How many of our patients wanting Dilaudid IV or oxycodone prescriptions say they're in 10/10 pain while walking, chewing gum, and texting simultaneously? CMS could -- and has sometimes in the past -- viewed that as not stabilizing the patient. Granted, these cases involve people with bad outcomes that generate the EMTALA investigation.

For anyone who normally delays EGD in these patients when you have capacity to perform them, you are subjecting yourself to possible EMTALA violations and litigation. I would advocate strongly that your hospital changes its policies and/or culture so that these patients get an EGD from the ER and are subsequently discharged (or then admitted if they so choose). I've provided expert witness EMTALA opinion before and would be happy to do so if you want to take up this issue with your gastroenterologists or hospital administrators.
 
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Why would he be admitted? This is a procedure that is done and patient is discharged. Admitting and delaying esophageal food disimpactions has led to EMTALA fines for delay in stabilizing the patient. Remember, CMS views stabilization not like we do -- it's not about the vital signs.
Ehhh, I assumed OP was going to throw some outlier of a bill so why not throw in an overnight Obs b/c GI didn't want to come in.

I misspoke and meant Obs and not a full admission.
 
Thanks for playing folks.

Here are the answers:

1) $1025
2) $111
3 $19!


My wife’s insurance is pretty great.

All told I was out under $700 for the whole ordeal.
(My portion of the Anesthesia and GI bills were less than $100, facility fees less than $500).

It’s crazy to me having that insurance led to such a lower cost than someone without any or a less generous plan.
So this was just for the ER physician? What an insurance farce. So the doc got paid a total of 120 for this? You might say that your wife had good insurance, I say the insurance essentially discounted the doc's work by 87%.

If you think your wife's insurance was great? Go and get something like Oscar and the plan would have paid about $50
 
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So this was just for the ER physician? What an insurance farce. So the doc got paid a total of 120 for this? You might say that your wife had good insurance, I say the insurance essentially discounted the doc's work by 87%.

If you think your wife's insurance was great? Go and get something like Oscar and the plan would have paid about $50
Yup. I guess that’s the power of being in network. I’d honestly be happy being paid $111 for essentially 10 min of work: come say hi to the patient, write a quick note and order an IV, GI already notified etc.
 
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Yup. I guess that’s the power of being in network. I’d honestly be happy being paid $111 for essentially 10 min of work: come say hi to the patient, write a quick note and order an IV, GI already notified etc.
That sounds great but that $111 or less is getting paid for the complicated medicare/oscar type coverage too.....
 
EMTALA 100% applies to observation patients. Admitted patients usually (but not always) don't have EMTALA obligations unless CMS can show that the patient was admitted instead of observation status to avoid EMTALA implications.

If you admit a patient with an esophageal food impaction, they aspirate or have a complication, and if the patient or family so pursues, you'll find yourself staring down an EMTALA violation that has precedent.

In one EMTALA fine, a hospital didn't have a GI doc on call to perform an EGD for an elderly lady with an esophageal food impaction. So the ER did what any of us would've done: they transferred the patient to a facility that did have a GI on call and ability to do the EGD. The patient aspirated in the ambulance, became profoundly hypoxemic, suffered an asystolic cardiac arrest, and ultimately died. The transferring hospital and ED physician were both found to be in violation of EMTALA because the ENT on call at that facility had credentials to perform an EGD even though he had not done one in >10 years and wasn't even contacted during this case. CMS and OIG viewed that because there was a specialist credentialed to do the EGD, the EGD should have been done at the referring facility and the patient never transferred. After the EMTALA violation, all of the nitty gritty became discoverable because the hospital was put on a 23-day fast track to losing ability to participate in Medicare. This resulted in a large settlement for the patient's family. CMS will get 50-100 charts they identify of similar cases (to see if it's your usual practice), nursing staffing rosters for the prior 90 days, physician staffing rosters for the prior 30 days, and the on-call schedules for the prior 30 days. They will look at credentialing of multiple specialities if it's relevant. This is how they found that the ENT's core credentials included EGD (which was in place not really to perform an EGD, but in place to allow an EGD to be performed during trach procedures).

CMS views stabilization as within a reasonable degree of medical certainty, no material deterioration should occur during a transfer or while the patient is in observation status. Sometimes stabilization requires days to weeks, and the general consensus that a true inpatient admission voids EMTALA obligations has been challenged recently. There's even been cases where patients were deemed unstable because they had "significant pain" upon discharge from the emergency department. How many of our patients wanting Dilaudid IV or oxycodone prescriptions say they're in 10/10 pain while walking, chewing gum, and texting simultaneously? CMS could -- and has sometimes in the past -- viewed that as not stabilizing the patient. Granted, these cases involve people with bad outcomes that generate the EMTALA investigation.

For anyone who normally delays EGD in these patients when you have capacity to perform them, you are subjecting yourself to possible EMTALA violations and litigation. I would advocate strongly that your hospital changes its policies and/or culture so that these patients get an EGD from the ER and are subsequently discharged (or then admitted if they so choose). I've provided expert witness EMTALA opinion before and would be happy to do so if you want to take up this issue with your gastroenterologists or hospital administrators.

So how was the ED physician supposed to know that the ENT has credentialed for and EGD also what if the consulting specialty is already doing a procedure? Especially if credentialed to do a procedure when doing a trach

That hospital could get that overturned CMS has also judged that an EM physician should do abdominal surgery before transferí g and fined the doctor which was overturned
 
Never would happen but I would kill to have a flat fee schedule.
 
To get back on topic alittle, I decided to put our family on one of the healthshare plans rather than a high deductible on the exchange. Essentially I paid $600/mo with a $1500 deductible when the healthshare came out vs $1500/mo plus a 10K family deductible.

So essentially I was $7200 vs $18K if we didn't see a doctor and $8700 vs $28K if we had any reasonable procedure. Healthshare allowed us to choose whatever doc vs the high deductible plan which had none of our docs as participants. You would think for $18k/yr, the pool of docs would be high but essentially was restricted to one health care system.

My kid had a cyst removed with a plastic surgeon, Anesthesiologist in day surgery.

Guess my out of pocket for the whole procedure including surgeon, anesthesiologist, facility charge as I was Cash pay.
 
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To get back on topic alittle, I decided to put our family on one of the healthshare plans rather than a high deductible on the exchange. Essentially I paid $600/mo with a $1500 deductible when the healthshare came out vs $1500/mo plus a 10K family deductible.

So essentially I was $7200 vs $18K if we didn't see a doctor and $8700 vs $28K if we had any reasonable procedure. Healthshare was chose whatever doc I wanted vs the high deductible plan which had none of my docs as participants. You would think for $18k/yr, the pool of docs would be high but essentially was restricted to one health care system.

My kid had a cyst removed with a plastic surgeon, Anesthesiologist in day surgery.

Guess my out of pocket for the whole procedure including surgeon, anesthesiologist, facility charge as I was Cash pay.
$6000
 
As a caveat, I was able to choose the plastic surgeon and hospital that I wanted to go to. The anesthesiologist was just whoever worked that day. IV placed, moderate sedation, small bag of fluid. Procedure was about 30 min, 2 hr total from IV to recovery. Cyst was appx 1cm removed over his eyebrow.
 
To get back on topic alittle, I decided to put our family on one of the healthshare plans rather than a high deductible on the exchange. Essentially I paid $600/mo with a $1500 deductible when the healthshare came out vs $1500/mo plus a 10K family deductible.

So essentially I was $7200 vs $18K if we didn't see a doctor and $8700 vs $28K if we had any reasonable procedure. Healthshare allowed us to choose whatever doc vs the high deductible plan which had none of our docs as participants. You would think for $18k/yr, the pool of docs would be high but essentially was restricted to one health care system.

My kid had a cyst removed with a plastic surgeon, Anesthesiologist in day surgery.

Guess my out of pocket for the whole procedure including surgeon, anesthesiologist, facility charge as I was Cash pay.
Hospital or surgery center?
 
Private full service hospital in richest part of city built primarily to service the uber rich.

Because it was a healthshare, I was treated as cash pay and got the cash pay rate for all services.
 
So how was the ED physician supposed to know that the ENT has credentialed for and EGD also what if the consulting specialty is already doing a procedure? Especially if credentialed to do a procedure when doing a trach

That hospital could get that overturned CMS has also judged that an EM physician should do abdominal surgery before transferí g and fined the doctor which was overturned
If the consulting specialty is already tied up, then you don't have the capacity to care for the patient and a transfer is appropriate.

These things baffle me as much as everyone else. Cases have been overturned before, but they are exceedingly rare and take longer than 23 days to overturn. Judges rarely award injunctions to postpone termination of Medicare reimbursement. The hospital can retroactively bill CMS if it ultimately wins an appeal and the violation is overturned, but that may take years and hospitals don't do well with Medicare funding for years.
 
Background: I have eosinophilic esophagitis and am prone to strictures/food impaction. The other week one bite into a tasty ribeye I had grilled for dinner I was plugged. My GI doc is a buddy, but it was after hours and he was out of town. Therefore, to the local ER I went. He texted the on call GI to let them know I was coming.

The ER team could not have been nicer, nurse and doc etc. I was promptly put back into a room and an IV was started. My case was delayed due to an ectopic pregnancy and appy the anesthesia folks had to do first, but a few hours later I was good to go.

Today I got my bill. So let’s have a guessing game. (Obviously as is the case with my patients I know the doc had nothing to do with what the charges were).

The categories:

1) physician charge
2) portion my insurance (BCBS through my wife) payed
3) my responsible portion


Will post the answers later to give folks time to guess.

1) ER + GI + Anes: $16,500
2) Insurance waived 30% (~$5,000), paid 60% ($9,900), you responsible for 10% ($1,650)
3) I don't think you asked for the facility charge, but that will come to $23,600.
 
EMTALA 100% applies to observation patients. Admitted patients usually (but not always) don't have EMTALA obligations unless CMS can show that the patient was admitted instead of observation status to avoid EMTALA implications.

If you admit a patient with an esophageal food impaction, they aspirate or have a complication, and if the patient or family so pursues, you'll find yourself staring down an EMTALA violation that has precedent.

In one EMTALA fine, a hospital didn't have a GI doc on call to perform an EGD for an elderly lady with an esophageal food impaction. So the ER did what any of us would've done: they transferred the patient to a facility that did have a GI on call and ability to do the EGD. The patient aspirated in the ambulance, became profoundly hypoxemic, suffered an asystolic cardiac arrest, and ultimately died. The transferring hospital and ED physician were both found to be in violation of EMTALA because the ENT on call at that facility had credentials to perform an EGD even though he had not done one in >10 years and wasn't even contacted during this case. CMS and OIG viewed that because there was a specialist credentialed to do the EGD, the EGD should have been done at the referring facility and the patient never transferred. After the EMTALA violation, all of the nitty gritty became discoverable because the hospital was put on a 23-day fast track to losing ability to participate in Medicare. This resulted in a large settlement for the patient's family. CMS will get 50-100 charts they identify of similar cases (to see if it's your usual practice), nursing staffing rosters for the prior 90 days, physician staffing rosters for the prior 30 days, and the on-call schedules for the prior 30 days. They will look at credentialing of multiple specialities if it's relevant. This is how they found that the ENT's core credentials included EGD (which was in place not really to perform an EGD, but in place to allow an EGD to be performed during trach procedures).

CMS views stabilization as within a reasonable degree of medical certainty, no material deterioration should occur during a transfer or while the patient is in observation status. Sometimes stabilization requires days to weeks, and the general consensus that a true inpatient admission voids EMTALA obligations has been challenged recently. There's even been cases where patients were deemed unstable because they had "significant pain" upon discharge from the emergency department. How many of our patients wanting Dilaudid IV or oxycodone prescriptions say they're in 10/10 pain while walking, chewing gum, and texting simultaneously? CMS could -- and has sometimes in the past -- viewed that as not stabilizing the patient. Granted, these cases involve people with bad outcomes that generate the EMTALA investigation.

For anyone who normally delays EGD in these patients when you have capacity to perform them, you are subjecting yourself to possible EMTALA violations and litigation. I would advocate strongly that your hospital changes its policies and/or culture so that these patients get an EGD from the ER and are subsequently discharged (or then admitted if they so choose). I've provided expert witness EMTALA opinion before and would be happy to do so if you want to take up this issue with your gastroenterologists or hospital administrators.

SOmeone needs to cull the last 10 years of your EMTALA's posts and publish a sticky on just that topic. Then we need to print a book and send it to every hospital. It's golden.

Someone needs to review every EMTALA violation ever resulting in a payment or penalty like you have done above and send it to every hospital.

Then every ER doctor needs to be able to quote this book to the accepting institutions so they don't block us.

We go through so much nonsense.
 
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Thanks for playing folks.

Here are the answers:

1) $1025
2) $111
3 $19!


My wife’s insurance is pretty great.

All told I was out under $700 for the whole ordeal.
(My portion of the Anesthesia and GI bills were less than $100, facility fees less than $500).

It’s crazy to me having that insurance led to such a lower cost than someone without any or a less generous plan.

You guys remember when I shattered my clavicle last year? I posted a pretty funny joke on it (as well as my x-rays) here.
I paid several hundred bucks for the anesthesia charge only, and the office co-pays for the pre-op and post-op visit.
Still haven't seen any bill for the actual surgical procedure.
I was pretty happy.
 
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All services were classified as cash pay as they didn't take a healthshare.
1. Hospital facility charge $615, paid at time of service, all went towards my deductible. Forgot to file with my healthshare so probably could have gotten some $$ back. Should have let the healthshare reprice it first but seemed so cheap that I was happy to pay.
2. Surgeon - Billed at $698, Healthshare repriced at $200, I paid $200 which went towards my deductible
3. Anesthesiologist - Billed at $875, healthshare repriced at $212 and paid by healthshare. Guess I hit my deductible

So cost me a total of $815 for the whole surgery.

If I had my high deductible coverage, I bet the bills would have been 5-10x as much and which would have went essentially to my deductible.

I remember when I had my Cadillac PPO insurance man years ago with a 5k deductible, and saw a cardiologist who spent 5 min plus an echo that took 15 min by the tech. After running my insurance, I paid $2500 which went to my deductible.
 
Still haven't seen any bill for the actual surgical procedure.
I was pretty happy.

Be wary... When I had my appendix out AT THE HOSPITAL WHERE I WAS ON STAFF, billing sent the bill to the wrong address. For over a year. They then threatened to send me to collections when they finally bothered to call me.

I was like, seriously? I work here. I'm on committees here. I am here ALL THE TIME. You know me. What the hell? (This is not a big city, either.)
It was like $1500. I asked the registration lady what the hell happened. I mean, I was registered IN MY OWN ER.

It didn't exactly inspire confidence...
 
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Be wary... When I had my appendix out AT THE HOSPITAL WHERE I WAS ON STAFF, billing sent the bill to the wrong address. For over a year. They then threatened to send me to collections when they finally bothered to call me.

I was like, seriously? I work here. I'm on committees here. I am here ALL THE TIME. You know me. What the hell? (This is not a big city, either.)
It was like $1500. I asked the registration lady what the hell happened. I mean, I was registered IN MY OWN ER.

It didn't exactly inspire confidence...

I got a needle stick in the ED I worked at. Course I was a 10-99, so noone gave a ****, ended up paying 1k.
 
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I registered myself so I could perform a covid test on myself (this was VERY early when it wasn't necessarily easy to get one) after a big time exposure. I purposely wrote no note on myself. Did the test. DC'd myself. My CMG was on my ass for *months* to write a note so I could.... bill... myself.

My hospital also sent me a facility bill for something insane like $750 for being in the system for 3 minutes and having no interaction with anyone but myself, I refused to let nurses triage me either for this very reason. I made them cancel it out (after many many phone calls) except for the $250 they charge for the test - which my insurance covered (I think the government actually picked up the tab, but thats splitting hairs at this point. It wasn't me).
 
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W
I registered myself so I could perform a covid test on myself (this was VERY early when it wasn't necessarily easy to get one) after a big time exposure. I purposely wrote no note on myself. Did the test. DC'd myself. My CMG was on my ass for *months* to write a note so I could.... bill... myself.

My hospital also sent me a facility bill for something insane like $750 for being in the system for 3 minutes and having no interaction with anyone but myself, I refused to let nurses triage me either for this very reason. I made them cancel it out (after many many phone calls) except for the $250 they charge for the test - which my insurance covered (I think the government actually picked up the tab, but thats splitting hairs at this point. It wasn't me).

Maybe things have changed but I remembered being able to do these rapid tests in the ER as a John Doe as a QC/test run. Once you register, you are going down a unknown road.
 
I got free food at the cafeteria at this place and made sure I didnt go overboard. Lesson learned, anything free im chompin the crap out of it.
One of my hospitals in residency gave us free food and one of the IM residents got a talking to for bringing his family of 5 to the caf for dinner, every day.
 
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One of my hospitals in residency gave us free food and one of the IM residents got a talking to for bringing his family of 5 to the caf for dinner, every day.

See; that's a d!ck move.

I used to chow down like a MF'er at my first gig, which gave us all the free foods. Then, I reached my heaviest weight.

I'm almost 30 pounds lighter now and feel light years better.
 
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