Grades

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1Vista1Grey

1Vista1Grey

OkSU-CVHS Class of 2013
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Does anyone else experience this?

I feel like Im always facing this constant battle in my head

You MUST get A's (and B's, im not unrealistic, half A's half B's is what I would be aiming for in this argument) because I never know if I will want to do a residency when I am ready to graduate. OR if I dont get good grades in vet school I wont be a good vet (look at that idiot-she doesnt even know what the complementary fibrocartilage of PII is- I would never let her treat my animal)

Versus

You DON'T NEED A's. Just get as much out of the information as you can and be happy with B's. You will be happy practicing medicine regardless of which specialty you go into, so general medicine is fine.

I would say I'm being too hard on myself, but every time I settle for the latter, I get really upset when I get test questions wrong that I know I could have gotten right if I studied that one section for just an extra few minutes (even if I got the grade I "wanted" on my test).

I know a lot of this stems from not being entirely sure what kind of vet I want to be, and if I want to do a residency, or even WHERE I want to practice. But also, I do wonder, will employers use my GPA/NAVLE scores to decide who to hire? Also, I know the NAVLE only requires like a 65% to pass (so, obviously I will study hard for it, but I'm not in any real danger there), but is lisencing in individual states more rigorous?

Does anyone else go through this?
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GPA matters a little. Clinical skills matter a lot. Interpersonal skills may or may not matter depending on your particular specialty. I personally know of at least one vet who had less than a 3.0 and got a residency. Their clinical skills were top notch, though, and that's what mattered. Memorizing material for a test is ultimately less important than integrating material for clinical application.
 
Most (probably >95% or more) of employers do not care about your GPA or NAVLE scores--can't recall ever hearing of anyone ever asking for NAVLE scores (heck the test changes every year so it's probably not even relevant to compare)

You will have made it through vet school and qualified for a license. They therefore assume you have mastered basic clinical competencies. What seems to matter more is how you interact with people whether it is clients, staff, or your boss. When they interview you as a new grad they are well aware that you need to brush up on things like surgery skills, they expect that (hence the lower initial pay). What they don't expect is to have someone who can't relate to their clients or doesn't mesh well with staff.

As for residencies and grades, yeah they play a part. Can you get a residency with less than stellar (sub 3.0 GPA), most likely depending on specialty as there are a number of residencies that may go unfilled each year (at private pracs for sure).
 
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I've heard secondhand from people who decide on who gets residency spots, and all accounts point towards 'it's all about your clinical rotations'. What vets who work with you say about you during those matters more than GPA.
 
Ditto to everything everyone has already said: grades ONLY matter if you're pursuing specialization (and there, most of the time your GPA does have to be relatively high--but there are exceptions--and even so, your time in clinics is MUCH more important than your grades in the didactic years). People hiring GPs most want grads who are efficient, able to logically work cases up and in a way that's mindful of client finances if those are restrictive, not afraid of broadening their surgical skills, and able to COMMUNICATE with clients and staff. They don't care a single bit about your grades as long as you graduated (however barely) and passed the NAVLE.

Many times common sense doesn't make it on the test--especially in the first two years. I've worked with well over 70 veterinarians in my career prior to veterinary school and I will tell you that I would trust my pet with some of my straight-C friends YEARS before I would trust my pet with some of the folks in our top 10. (I can't wait to see them shine in clinics and blow everyone away!)

In short--don't sweat it. :)

ETA--I should add that the REASON I would trust some of my straight-C friends in a heartbeat over the more GPA-gifted is because they CARE, they have a logical way of problem-solving, they're not afraid to seek out information from other sources and/or ask for help, and they are absolutely committed to finding the best solution for that particular patient. :) Whereas some of the straight-A-ers would have a hard time reasoning through a relatively simple situation, are too proud to ask for help, and assume that the first thing that occurs to them is correct--and some of them don't care too much, either. (It's that way in every vet school.)
 
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1Vista1Grey said:
Does anyone else experience this?

I feel like Im always facing this constant battle in my head

You MUST get A's (and B's, im not unrealistic, half A's half B's is what I would be aiming for in this argument) because I never know if I will want to do a residency when I am ready to graduate. OR if I dont get good grades in vet school I wont be a good vet (look at that idiot-she doesnt even know what the complementary fibrocartilage of PII is- I would never let her treat my animal)

Versus

You DON'T NEED A's. Just get as much out of the information as you can and be happy with B's. You will be happy practicing medicine regardless of which specialty you go into, so general medicine is fine.

I would say I'm being too hard on myself, but every time I settle for the latter, I get really upset when I get test questions wrong that I know I could have gotten right if I studied that one section for just an extra few minutes (even if I got the grade I "wanted" on my test).

I know a lot of this stems from not being entirely sure what kind of vet I want to be, and if I want to do a residency, or even WHERE I want to practice. But also, I do wonder, will employers use my GPA/NAVLE scores to decide who to hire? Also, I know the NAVLE only requires like a 65% to pass (so, obviously I will study hard for it, but I'm not in any real danger there), but is lisencing in individual states more rigorous?

Does anyone else go through this?
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Residencies and specialties aside - and - folks have already commented on that...

Besides that...

Ask yourself, what will matter most to you in the next five years. Six years. Ten years.

Would you ask your favorite veterinarian, while they're looking at your dog, or coming out to your farm, what they got in Virology? Or Gross Anatomy II?

Can you talk to people? Can you talk to a pet owner? Can you explain medical stuff in 'regular' terms? Can you offer Plan B, or Plan C, if the owner doesn't have $1,000,000 to treat their pet now?

Or, you're going into government, research, academia, industry, XYZ. Can you get along with your boss and your co-workers or your staff? Can you be on-time to your job or to an appointment? Can you communicate?!

Do you know who you can ask, or where you can look-up the answer to what you don't know? Are you the type of person that other people would LIKE to answer, when you ask them a question?

You = a human being. You (IMO) does not equal 12345.78899 GPA or test averages or class-rank. Maybe we are led to believe that in The Ivory Tower, but deep-down (and you don't have to dig deep as far as I'm concerned) - those things are not what makes this world turn-round.

Alrighty. Back to sex, A.I. and dystocia! Therio, babe!
 
Thanks for all the support guys. I know that communication and being logical is definitely more important in general practice. And I certainly think that clinics will be easier for me to excel in than class room lectures and factoids (not saying clinics are easy just that my brain would work better in that type of situation).

I was mostly just wondering if any of you who may not have been sure if they wanted to specialize or not had trouble deciding between losing sleep over grades or just going along for the ride and seeing where you end up. I guess the easiest thing would be to just decide what I want to do now, but I just feel like its too soon to commit (maybe I have commitment issues, huh?)

I dont want to have C=DVM attitude by any means, but has anyone gone through this conundrum their first year? And if so, how did you finally come to decision either way? Am I the only one?
 
I agree with others that your exact GPA doesn't matter its how well you function in clinics and get along with real people (staff and clients). All that said if you plan to do an internship or residency it can only help your application to have good (~3.5 to 3) grades. At the same time if it is not worth the extra insanity to pull that off as long as you do well in clinics and aren't too restrictive in your internship/residency selection you will be fine.

No future client or likely future employer except intership/residency is going to ask for your transcript.

All of that doesn't answer your issue with being upset if you got less than stellar grades. My only advice there would be make sure you take some time each day/week to do things you want to do and then do your best in your studying based on whatever else is going on that week. That way you maintain your sanity and can feel that you gave whatever exam your best effort.

Hope that made some sort of sense.
 
Word to that. Your experiences, dedication, people skills, and how much you devote yourself to the field count for so much. I got a very competitive residency at a ~ top 5 school with a GPA of 2.88 :p. Because I proved my dedication to the field in many other way (path part-time jobs, tons of research, path clubs and rotations, etc). I rocked my interview and made sure to express to them how much I knew about the field, and who CARES if i got Cs along the way. Heck, I got a D in optho! People *do* appreciate that you realize there is life outside of school. Of course you need to have a solid base knowledge of facts/procedures/pathogenesis/physiology/etc, but a 4.0 is not a prerequisite to success.
 
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Make that at least 2. I honestly have absolutely no clue what grades most people got in vet school. It's just not relevant once you're practicing!
 
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Its way more important to get some "life" and unwind time than get straight A's. This way, you won't burn out in school/first few years after you graduate.
 
sunshinevet said:
Its way more important to get some "life" and unwind time than get straight A's. This way, you won't burn out in school/first few years after you graduate.
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Not to mention over here unless you have a mind like a sponge it would be insane to even attempt to get a 4.0 :p
 
1Vista1gray:

Getting good grades in US Vet Schools is not a difficult task because the universities cater to their students. They treat the students as "customers" and they want them to feel like all the money spent is worth the "education" they receive. With that in mind, make some effort to have a decent GPA in case you want to pursue an internship and/or residency. But above all, be a motivated, inquisitive individual and go after the information. Don't rely solely on what professors are giving you. It is never enough...

Plato said: "The most important part of education is proper training in the nursery". Do as many externships as possible and look for passionate mentors who like teaching and want to help you become the best vet you possibly can. Interpersonal skills is also a must when in clinics. Keep in mind that no matter how bad the day might feel, you are there to SERVE your clients and patients; do not act as if you're God's gift to the world. I've seen many vets "pretending" they are interested in helping their clients, but as soon as the clients went away such vets would show arrogance and disdain - speaking badly about the clients behind their backs.This behavior shows what truly is in your heart - that you really don't care about people or your patients. When I was a faculty, I never really paid too much attention to grades (intelligence cannot really be measured in our system, for individuals learn at different paces and through different methods). However, I paid attention to motivated, interested and passionate students. They stand out easily: they are eager to learn, don't have an attitude and were all about helping clients, patients and other vet students/colleagues. These are the ones that I would pick for an internship/residency.

I hope this helps. Good luck!
K9VET
 
K9VET said:
Getting good grades in US Vet Schools is not a difficult task because the universities cater to their students.
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Cater? Um..my school certainly doesn't cater. You either learn it, or you don't. And if you don't, you fail. Sorry. Join the class below you or drop out, period. In three full academic years, with anywhere from 7-10 classes per semester, we had only one or two tests curved, total.

Getting good grades IS a difficult task for many. Pretending it is not is just being arrogant. Getting top marks is hard for the exact reason you later stated:

K9VET said:
individuals learn at different paces and through different methods
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I got mediocre grades not simply because of my jobs taking time away (those 2am calls before 8 am surgery finals sure didn't help though) but because my learning style is different: I am ADHD (yes, legitimately diagnosed) and don't learn by regurgitation (which is a lot of first and second year material). I am also NOT a learn-by-doing type of person - which made many things in third year and clinics hard. I am a learn-by-reading person. I have poor tactile memory and poor detail memory but excellent pattern recognition - hence pathology and research for me. I think in the abstract. Most of my colleagues are the opposite.

And also because of the amount of time you would have to invest mentally - I have seen many burned out second years.


However, I do agree with the other qualities you talked about - those are extremely important to making a good clinician. You may be able to rattle off 15 causes of hyperkalemia, but can you formulate a treatment plan? Can you communicate effectively with owners and staff? Etc.
 
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Having a job or other issues like ADHD during vet school years do affect your performance. It is unfair to put 100 students in a room - (students with different interests, backgrounds and talents) - to assess their "intelligence" by lumping everybody together and plotting students' averages.

What I mean by "cater" is that everything is made very smooth for the students: perfect handouts, easy exams (often times multiple choice tests) that often require regurgitation of info and very little thinking. Schools consider you a "client" and don't require you to make some effort to study and seek information on your own. Have you noticed that when you enter any vet library in the U.S. most key reference books are on the shelves? Why to waste your time learning "how to learn" and how to research when the handouts provide everything chewed up? When you get out of school you'll face the real world: you won't have anybody to spoon-feed you or give you the answers. You will face cases that leave you completely clueless and you will be on your own. You will have to learn how to search for information, how to read scientific papers and how to make your own conclusions. All of these depend really on your interest and motivation - not if you graduated from UPenn, Cornell or Davis...

All of the above is just my own personal experience. I graduated in 1994, was involved in research for a long time and have been to several different schools both here in the U.S. and abroad.

What are you doing your residency specialty in?
 
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K9VET said:
Having a job or other issues like ADHD during vet school years do affect your performance. It is unfair to put 100 students in a room - (students with different interests, backgrounds and talents) - to assess their "intelligence" by lumping everybody together and plotting students' averages.

What I mean by "cater" is that everything is made very smooth for the students: perfect handouts, easy exams (often times multiple choice tests) that often require regurgitation of info and very little thinking. Schools consider you a "client" and don't require you to make some effort to study and seek information on your own. Have you noticed that when you enter any vet library in the U.S. most key reference books are on the shelves? Why to waste your time learning "how to learn" and how to research when the handouts provide everything chewed up? When you get out of school you'll face the real world: you won't have anybody to spoon-feed you or give you the answers. You will face cases that leave you completely clueless and you will be on your own. You will have to learn how to search for information, how to read scientific papers and how to make your own conclusions. All of these depend really on your interest and motivation - not if you graduated from UPenn, Cornell or Davis...

All of the above is just my own personal experience. I graduated in 1994, was involved in research for a long time and have been to several different schools both here in the U.S. and abroad.

What are you doing your residence on?
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I don't know where YOU went to school... but I would say you didn't have the *common* experience... I spend PLENTY of time studying, multiple choice exams for us are actually the hardest as they make them extremely convoluted and conceptual, you really have to know your stuff here to do well on a multiple choice test - hence why I prefer short answer. I can't speak for all schools, but ours requires us to do multiple lit reviews and research based study throughout our degree... I mean, really... how else do you do an assignment...???

I don't know where you've been working - but each of the 5 clinics I've worked at, as well as the two teaching hospitals I've seen, has had its own little library full of reference books. Because theres no way vet school can teach you everything you need to know. And so instead, they teach you how to find the answer. There is nothing wrong with having to look at the book.
 
I think you misunderstood what I said. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having to use books in the library. Quite the contrary - that is why I said most books are collecting dust on the shelves of vet school libraries here in America.

Being from Australia, your education is different. It is different everywhere I have been. And all places have pros and cons. A major pro here in the US is the technology available. A major con is the very high price of the education. You pay as much as one would pay for human medicine. Bottom line: being a good, talented vet depends on you. And the learning process never ends - which makes it fun and fascinating.
 
I was told that "getting in is the hard part" and that once you're in, the school will do everything they can to see you succeed.

We have some excellent teachers, and most are dedicated to our learning, but it has certainly NOT been an easy ride.

I think it's seldom that we are spoon-fed here. It's more like "trying to take a sip from a fire hydrant" as one awesome faculty-member said it.

There are some folks who can do amazingly well on a multiple choice exam. I'm not one of them. I do better with short answer or essay. I'm hoping that my style (whatever that is) will help me in clinics.

But, ditto what WhtsThFrequency said. I've never felt catered-to. And I've seen failure dangle before my eyes one too many times, and it really really sucks when you are throwing everything you've got at the material, and you still screw up the exam. It's a real beat-down, and it's quite humbling.

Maybe I'm an under-achiever. I'm not gunning for a residency, and I don't plan on pursuing an internship. I know that the learning curve after I graduate will be huge. I've seen the DVM's that get hired, who proudly display their GPA's on their resumes or CV's.. and I've seen some of them lack in many other areas, at least in private practice. So I'm not convinced that better grades = a better doctor.

As far as I'm concerned, C=DVM, and based on the struggles I've gone thru here, and whatever else is coming my way, I am so not ashamed, particularly now, of stating that.
 
CookieBear said:
.
Maybe I'm an under-achiever. I'm not gunning for a residency, and I don't plan on pursuing an internship. I know that the learning curve after I graduate will be huge. I've seen the DVM's that get hired, who proudly display their GPA's on their resumes or CV's.. and I've seen some of them lack in many other areas, at least in private practice. So I'm not convinced that better grades = a better doctor.
Click to expand...

I agree with everything you've said. There are definitely gunners in every class (I had one girl in my class freak out over getting a B for a class this year).

But I did want to share with you what our business professor said about putting your GPA on a resume or CV. He said not to do it because the only people that want to are the ones who have really high grades and want to show it off. Employers don't usually care about that information and in fact, there are a lot of them that want somewhat lower averages because they usually have better real-life experiences. It tells the employer that you weren't only interested in your grades in vet school, and that's something that many are looking for.
 
do you know what they call the guy that graduated last in his class?

= dvm =
 
LOL. One of my class mates was upset about an exam. I asked, bluntly, what she got because I didn't do well, even though I knew the material. It was a multiple multiple-choice exam. Things like IL-13, then a list of random details with lots of slippery spots and subtle details. is it realeased by X, during Y, in the presence of C. Ummm.... many times, going back over those tests aftr getting the grade, I realize that I have NEVER seen the answer. It isn't in our text, or our notes, and it wasn't covered during class. It wasn't even stuff I would have integrated. Why on earth would I know what IL-13 does at the site of a puncture in an animal with serum sickness (never heard of serum sickness) and some drug (never covered that drug, pharm is next year)?

On a 200 point test, she missed 8. Note, her background is in immunology, and that is where she intends to do research. Apparently, missing 8 was horrible.

As for catered to, I think that is really easy way to bolster one's ego. Unless you have attended classes at the same time at all the vet schools, you have no ability to measure the difficulty of a class. In this past year, we had one test curved by 4 pts (out of 288) because the class majority was below a C-. It was curved to a C-. over 1/3 of the class received a D or below, we were berated for this, and it was a big issue. I have been to several of the vet schools is Australia. I believe it is the height of arrogance for me to assume that sitting in on some lectures and viewing some tests and working with some professors qualifies me to say that in Australia schools have higher drop rates because they accept students without the necessary background. I don't think I know enough, just as I highly doubt others know if we are coddled in all the vet schools in the USA. Apparently ugliness in quick judgements isn't just an American trait.
 
sumstorm said:
I have been to several of the vet schools is Australia. I believe it is the height of arrogance for me to assume that sitting in on some lectures and viewing some tests and working with some professors qualifies me to say that in Australia schools have higher drop rates because they accept students without the necessary background. I don't think I know enough, just as I highly doubt others know if we are coddled in all the vet schools in the USA. Apparently ugliness in quick judgements isn't just an American trait.
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I'm not sure if you're talking about something I said? Because if I came across as though I thought americans were pandered to in their vet course, thats not what I meant...? I just said I thought it was common for vet students to have to work hard no matter where they go, and I don't think the US or Australia lets people just breeze through "because their paying".

I just wanted to make one quick comment about the necessary background thing - and yeah, its a bit OT. I don't think, as an undergrad admissions student, we lack the nesecerry background at all - I actually don't understand the need for the American system to have a 4 year degree - I suspect thats got more to do with the system than actually requiring the classes to pass vet school. I have heard many Americans comment that Australia's highschool education is a lot "higher" than the American one, and this could account for the difference, though once again, I haven't experienced it and so I can neither say yay or nay. The international students who do come here have minimal advantage over us, and don't (as a whole) outperform us on tests or anything, and there's few issues with the undergrads being able to cope with the course load. Most leave because they lack experience in the veterinary field and decide this isnt what they want to do - out of the 9 people who left my class last year, only 1 was because they failed something. And a couple of those people were international students. Murdochs rate of students going through is close to 95%.



Something I do find a bit odd, is that most of the gunners over here who complain about not getting 100% on tests or whatever are mainly americans and canadians (no offense guys, just an observation) and when you chat to them about it, they point out that they're paying heavily for their education (which is a good, good point. if I had to pay as much as them, I'd probably study non-stop too). But I wonder, in a class full of people all paying as much if not more, do they use the same reasoning?
 
sunshinevet said:
Something I do find a bit odd, is that most of the gunners over here who complain about not getting 100% on tests or whatever are mainly americans and canadians (no offense guys, just an observation) and when you chat to them about it, they point out that they're paying heavily for their education (which is a good, good point. if I had to pay as much as them, I'd probably study non-stop too). But I wonder, in a class full of people all paying as much if not more, do they use the same reasoning?
Click to expand...

The most common reason I hear is that they HAVE to get a 4.0 to have a shot at an internship and later a residency.
 
Sunshine, I actually enjoy reading what you write! It wasn't aimed at you at all, but I did meet plenty of first years when I was in Australia that weren't prepared for anything. I am not saying it is the majority, but I do think it is part of what contributes to the suicide stats. I think there are some folks who are ready and able, and I think there are some who won't even know what to do with their life on their death bed. And I honestly don't think the American system improves that at all. In other words, I wrote that as a random, ill-informed gripe or commentary on a system that I am only mildly familiar with in response to K9VET's judgement on a system s/he hasn't attended (or at least at this time I don't know of any vet anywhere with concurrent FT enrollment in two vet schools, let alone 2 on different continents.) There is such competition here, that the idea of us being treated as customers is amusing; it wouldn't be hard, even a month into first year, to find 3-4 students to replace any student who wanted to be treated as a customer. I would suggest we have the other extreme, if you want to be a vet and do not have wealth, you will be strapped into positions within the profession by an obligation to repay crushing debt, which can continue to climb because it will be federally funded.

I agree the education is different; I have friends in Australia that make far more than I will as a vet without having completed highschool, let alone college. But I doubt the difference is that Americans are coddled during vet school (some students may be in other ways because our system does favor upper socioeconomic classes.)

So, I was just giving a wanker's response to a wanker's comment.


K9VET said:
Getting good grades in US Vet Schools is not a difficult task because the universities cater to their students. They treat the students as "customers" and they want them to feel like all the money spent is worth the "education" they receive.

Being from Australia, your education is different. It is different everywhere I have been.
Click to expand...
 
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Hey Vistagrey,
I feel the same way and I am about to start clinics. I don't even know whether I want to do equine or small animal yet, but I am sure I want to do an internship and likely a residency, probably in medicine. From what I have gathered from the vets at my college that I have talked to about this, what matters most is how you do in clinics and your letters of recommendation. As long as you are getting decent grades now, work your tail off in clinics, and get good letters from well known doctors, you will be able to get where you want to. That's my plan at least! Good luck! :)
 
One of our professors said:

"A" students teach at vet schools or work in industry. "B" students work in practices run by "C" students. :)

That being said, I was an "A" student first year...and then I graduated to second and that was that!

On that note, back to 300 pages of clin path, bleah.
 
Here's to being a 'C' student!

I got a very competitive residency at a ~ top 5 school with a GPA of 2.88 :p.
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Glad to hear you can get a residency without stellar grades though. I've been considering specializing but I highly doubt I'll be a 4.0 student in vet school. Wasn't in undergrad, don't see why I would be in vet school where you're 'sipping from a fire hydrant'. And you'll like A&M and all the path people there, they're a good bunch.

On a side note, in one of our pre-vet meetings where adcom members came to talk to us, they used that same expression cept it was from a fire hose. A lot of blank stares from the freshmen who may not have realized what they were trying to get themselves into yet lol.
 
Keep in mind too that it's very possible for your grades to actually improve from year to year. :)

Just focus on what you think is clinically important--because most likely it is--and your patients will be better off for it. :)
 
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