Go to India for med...or stay...

[CaliAtenza]

Hey sup everyone...great forums here.

Im a freshman right now (doing undergrad) here at UCI (University of California-Irvine). Im a bio major..but taking a break from science classes this quarter. My 1st two quarters i did horrible; i didn't pass any of my science classes, even though i worked hard. So i became discouraged and decided to take a break this quarter and try poly sci and stuff like that...i like it, but i dunno if i see myself in it. My problem is that i sux at taking tests that are multiple choice and i have a distaste for chemistry in general; but i love bio, especially genetics, anatomy, etc. I feel like i haven't accomplished anything my entire freshman year in college and that it was all a waste, both of my time and my parents' money. My dad (he's a doc) suggested that i go to india for med school, like a bunch of people have done. I'm US born, of indian descent...so going over there wouldn't be much of a problem. But im still wary of going over there, even though i hear good things from the people that i talk to that are over there. The other option is to stay here..repeat all my classes this summer (if UCI lets me) and struggle here and possibly go to a DO school or the Carribean. Im seriously at like the crossroads of my life and im not sure what to do...Please help ASAP!!!!

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[Premedtomed]

Hi fellow Indian American
I am Indian born US resident planning on attending med. school here in the US. The only problem in going to India is if you( don't mind but you are US born) will definitely have difficulty adjusting to the culture there.
Besides, you will have a difficult time trying to get back to the US and work/ get residency.
Some of the schools in India are really really great. If you can adjust to the Indian culture, which is very diverse, and feel you can coast through Indian style curriculum, then go for it. Carribean schools are close by and cannot be ignored.
DO schools are good too, but there is still a bias towards DO's .

Good luck

 

[CaliAtenza]

Hi fellow Indian American
I am Indian born US resident planning on attending med. school here in the US. The only problem in going to India is if you( don't mind but you are US born) will definitely have difficulty adjusting to the culture there.
Besides, you will have a difficult time trying to get back to the US and work/ get residency.
Some of the schools in India are really really great. If you can adjust to the Indian culture, which is very diverse, and feel you can coast through Indian style curriculum, then go for it. Carribean schools are close by and cannot be ignored.
DO schools are good too, but there is still a bias towards DO's .

Good luck

Thanx...actually i wouldn't have much difficulty adjusting cause i've been there so many times..and i would be going to school in Bangalore, which is preety cosmopolitan.

 

[Premedtomed]

Thanx...actually i wouldn't have much difficulty adjusting cause i've been there so many times..and i would be going to school in Bangalore, which is preety cosmopolitan.

Good for you! If you are guy like me, you will have blast - lots of hot chicks. In that case I envy you If girl, there are lots of hot guys out there!
Have fun

 

[CaliAtenza]

I'm a guy, lol....how hard is the schooling over there? And im gonna be studying 24/7..?

 

[Energon]

I dont know exactly which school you are looking into, but say if you go to Manipal, which is very famous for American Desis; then beware, it is a very intense and rigorous course. I have attended school in India and I can tell you from personal experience that coursework in the USA is generally easier. If you "failed" a lot of your science courses, you should think very hard before stepping into something you may not have a knack for. I completely understand the pressure of becoming a doctor in the Indian family... especially by default if one of your parents happens to be one. But you as an individual must be true to yourself and explore all other options. Change majors see if anything else interests you (law, business, the arts)... do not trap yourself in the "doctor" mindset because it will only make your life miserable. Trust me, there are many other things that are more important in life than "prestige" and what your parents think. Our older generation grew up in a different time when opportunities were very limited and the view of life in general was very myopic. This is far from the reality of today (in India or USA). If I were you, I would also reflect upon my freshman year performance, evaluate what you did right/wrong, radically change study habbits if you failed. At the end of it all, if you go back to the sciences, and decide "it is for you" (assuming your performance becomes really good), exhaust all US options first. However, if you are denied admissions solely due to your bad performance in your freshman year of college, then think India.

I dont think the culture shock will be as much these days... but there are many other serious issues that you must deal with first.

 

[uclakid]

AMMD got it totally right. the pressure is ON if one of ur family members (like dad) is a doc. my dad is a doc and ALL of our friends are too....their kids are docs as well...basically it's just me and some other people who have to prove that we're worthy...that's how i feel...regardless of what they say though, i love medicine and that's what I want to do. If i didn't then I know I would be strong enough to pursue something else.

i know many people who went to india, came back, and matched residencies. it can be done!

 

[CaliAtenza]

yeah..my dad is a doc. Partly the reason that i failed my classes is that even though i had preety good study habits, i just need extra help, which i couldn't really get even here at UCI. I went to all the review sessions, tried tutoring and stuff the first quarter, still didn't help, unfortunetly. I got preety discouraged becuase of all of this..and it carried over to my second quarter. Third quarter i took a break from all the sciences and im doing non science courses right now...i still wanna be a doc, but i just have a serious distaste for chem, u know. I know that i would have to study very hard in india and i would do so, there is no doubt about that. All through middle school and hs..i would have to struggle for everything and it suxed...i thought it would change in college, but it hasn't (its gotten way worse) and i have been unable to deal with it so far. Every day my mind goes back and forth..between staying here and changing majors or repeating courses OR going to india for med....

 

[MustafaMond]

My problem is that i sux at taking tests that are multiple choice!

Worst case scenario;

Spend 6 years slogging in India, and then fail USMLE.
Be careful.

 

[CaliAtenza]

i thought it was 4 and a half years in india....and yeah..i need to improve my skills on multiple choice tests.

 

[IMGforNeuro]

Hi CaliAtenza,
Let me start by saying that i am a foreign med grad from India and went to Manipal and also from a family of doctors. I took up medicine because i loved it and also because of encouragement at home. I always feel that one has the best chance at being successful if parents are in the same field too because of the home environment and also because of guidance,know-how and many other things. But this doesn't mean people choosing different careers cannot be successful, it is just easier otherwise. But this is just my opinion, no offence intended.
My wife is a bio-major from UCI and is also from India (actually spent 10 yrs here and naturalized). There were many people in her majors who were med school bound. Some made it to med school here. Some of her friends who apparently didn't fare well in first 2 yrs went to carribean.
Regarding med education in India, the med schools range from excellent to below average. But most good med schools do not take foreign students. Some private schools which are good and take foreign students are Manipal and i have not heard about many others which are in the same league. But i think Sri Ramachandra(Chennai) is also good.
Majority private schools 'sell' degrees. These are the schools which may cheat people. This is not to belittle med education in India, because government med colleges far outnumber these private colleges. Many Indian students from these 'degree sellers' are not considered good doctors. In fact doctors from government and a few good private schools dominate the medical practice in India.
The overall curriculum of med schools in India is very rigorous and you have to study hard. In my batch in Manipal, most Indian students were very competitive and we came thru a separate entrance. The NRI and foreign students came thru a different route.
Regarding USMLE preparation: Many of us also took indian entrances which are very tough. Most of my batchmates who took USMLE scored well (very high scores). To be honest (and not exaggerating) for many Indian students even from average med schools (government schools) usmle is a joke. So most people can try and score very well provided they work for it.
Regarding residency placement: It is not easy for IMGs (international med grads) to get residencies in the US. Most IMGs with very good scores get into int med, FP, Psych, pediatrics etc. Getting into surgical fields is very difficult. To achieve radiology, derm, neurosurg or other very competitive fields is nearly impossible(or rare). This is the experience of mine and many of my friends despite strong scores.
So i strongly feel that a US citizen should go to a US med school. Even a low tier US med schools is better in terms of residency placement compared to foreign schools. It is possible for an IMG to get a good residency. There are many who have done it. Many of us are in the process of doing it and eventually do it. But the effort and stress that has to be put into it is much more than for a US med grad.
Carribean VS Indian Med School: Carribean grads have a better residency placement than indian schools because they allow you to take clinical electives in american hospitals, in fact many have it as a part of curriculum. This gets them letters of recommendation from US physicians who residency program directors know. The carribean schools are there for americans who could not get into med school there, so they may also provide assistance in usmle prep. Indian med schools including manipal produce doctors for India. So this is the difference in educational approach. I found my clinical education as superb compared to most schools here in the US, but that is not the point. But still the residency placement of carribean schools is nowhere close to US med schools.
I would suggest- do NOT give up on US med school. Work harder in your remaining classes and try to improve your gpa. Repeat a yr if need be.
If you are still not able to make it to a US school then go out.
Regarding DO: Different people have a different opinion on this. The residency placement of DOs in ACGME accredited programs is just like IMGs. Dos may do osteopathic residencies in other specialities but they are not good and not very acceptable and are not ACGME accredited. I have respect DOs for their knowledge and competence, but many people may not have the same recognition for DO as they would for an MD. Many DOs take usmle to go to acgme accredited programs. But there is this issue of public peception attached to DOs. But all IMGs write an MD, so this issue does not affect them. I would again add that i have respect for the capabilities of DO physicians.
If you have to choose a non US med school, think of carribean first and choose the school wisely (on the basis of their residency placement, which is what is important). But it is better to go to a good Indian school than a carribean school which does not have a good residency placement (there are all kinds of carib schools too).
Then think of a good Indian school.
The residency placement in the US of Indian students like me from Manipal has been better than my own batchmates who came thru NRI/foreigner category. There was a drastic difference in their academic performance and ours(indian students). This also reflected in the usmle scores. Many of these partied more. So wherever you go, it is important to work hard. Medicine is a rewarding field, but all of us have to work hard. Even US medical students in schools in the US work hard, so US citizens who go out of the country should also expect to work hard.
This doesn't mean that you live and sleep with your books, everyone enjoys in between too.
Best of luck.

 

[CaliAtenza]

Thanx for the advice IMGforNeuro..it helped so much. Yah im gonna repeat courses this summer (Chem1A/1B) and do genetics in teh fall, . I wanna try my hardest to go to either a med school or a DO school here in the US; If not the Carribean. Im gonna be in a good study environment this summer (quiet and really nice appartment complex) and my friend will be taking one of the bio courses with me...so he's gonna help me out and stuff.

 

[MustafaMond]

i thought it was 4 and a half years in india....and yeah..i need to improve my skills on multiple choice tests.

4 and 1/2 plus 1 yr CRRI (house surgeon)
Then you add on any failure time.
Most people take 6 to 8 years.

 

[Energon]

Unfortunately, I think Manipal although a good school is regarded as a diploma mill IF you are a US IMG. My father is a graduate of Bombay University (they only accept indian students). If these guys migrate to the US (which is very rare these days considering they have better opportunities being Bombay U graduates at home), they do pretty well in the match here (surgery, rads, optho etc). IMG/Neuro covered it pretty well.... if you are to pursue medicine, exhaust all US options first.

 

[IMGforNeuro]

I have a lot of respect for bombay Univ, but you are talking of days long gone by. If you look at current rankings, Manipal has figured in top 10 for last 5 yrs (as long as i know, may be more), this yr is no.3. It is just that many people who have migrated from India are not in touch with things there.
They started taking indian students thru the entrance in 1994 which is when things picked up and they became competitive.
I have received a part of my med education(residency) in AIIMS which has always been number 1 or 2(sometimes). Even AIIMS grads who come to the US (and there are many) have the same fate as other FMGs.
Your dad's generation grads who came to the US are in all competitive specialities because things were very open. I know people from manipal (even though capitation in those days) who are in ortho, cardiac surg, ophtho etc.
Times have changed. I tried to do the same thing they did 15-20 yrs back , but the bitter truth is times have changed. This can be called a generalization now. From the point of view of an FMG the seventies and early eighties were the best time for fmgs to come to the US and get into good (very competitive) residencies.

 

[addicted2hope]

My father is a graduate of Bombay University (they only accept indian students). If these guys migrate to the US (which is very rare these days considering they have better opportunities being Bombay U graduates at home), they do pretty well in the match here (surgery, rads, optho etc).

As IMGforNeuro said, this was true in the 70s and 80s but not any longer. Graduates of Indian medical schools (even the best students of the best schools) DO NOT get into the competitive specialties like Radiology and Ophthalmology on a regular basis. Of course, there are exceptions but they are just that - exceptions.

And graduates of all major Universities (including Bombay University) and the prestigious AIIMS migrate to the US in significant numbers.

From the point of view of an FMG the seventies and early eighties were the best time for fmgs to come to the US and get into good (very competitive) residencies.

Those residencies were not competitive in those days, Radiology was full of IMGs. Just a few years ago (late 90s to 2000) Anesthesiology was a low-competitive specialty which depended on IMGs to fill the positions but in the recent 2-3 years it has become a moderately-competitive specialty. The trends keep changing like the NASDAQ.

 

[Energon]

No you guys mis understood me. Indian students who go to manipal and then migrate do pretty well. Its the American students who go to Manipal and then return who sometimes have problems. For example, my 1st cousin from India got into Manipal after the 12th (HSC) Ruparell College, Mumbai. He has since migrated here and is now in his second year of GI, a very competitive field at a good university program in the south. On the other hand 3 of our family friends from the states went to Manipal after graduating from American colleges had it a little tougher. Their board scores were pretty comparable to my cousin's (225-236 range), yet all 3 of them ended up in primary care internal medicine. One has since left medicine all together and started his own business, the other two are really trying hard to get fellowships.

The recent numbers for some of these guys atleast from KEM and JJ who migrate have definately dropped compared to say the 70's or 80's, I dont really know why... maybe the fact that it is now harder to match into specialties, managed care? I dont know, they seem to do fine staying home or going to the mid east.

 

[Premedtomed]

There's going to be a huge requirement for doctors in the near future. May be then more doctors from India will be allowed residencies. Who know?

 

[MD Rapper]

Thanx for the advice IMGforNeuro..it helped so much. Yah im gonna repeat courses this summer (Chem1A/1B) and do genetics in teh fall, . I wanna try my hardest to go to either a med school or a DO school here in the US; If not the Carribean. Im gonna be in a good study environment this summer (quiet and really nice appartment complex) and my friend will be taking one of the bio courses with me...so he's gonna help me out and stuff.

I admire your ability to think these serious decisions through... I'm sure you'll do fine whatever you decide. It's nice to see indos who have really taken the time to figure out what is best for them in the future instead of just picking a field because they are "supposed to" do it. Take care and keep us all posted...

 

[Premedtomed]

I admire your ability to think these serious decisions through... I'm sure you'll do fine whatever you decide. It's nice to see indos who have really taken the time to figure out what is best for them in the future instead of just picking a field because they are "supposed to" do it. Take care and keep us all posted...

Yeah it will be great to see the amount of success we achieve as a community in various ways

 

[Fiend]

Dear CaliAtenza,
I am reading this part of the forum for the first time, but I felt that I just had to write something.
The posts on this forum have generally been supportive of you sticking it out and trying to get into medical school. I fear they may be overly optimistic of your chances.
The successful U.S. raised NRIs that I know who have gone to India for medical school to return to the U.S. for residency training have been sharp individuals who had weird circumstances here that prevented them from going to or trying to get into medical school here (i.e. financial reasons, citizenship status, messed up in college because they were lazy but bright and realized it too late).
If you are having problems in freshman level science classes AND struggled in high school classes, you will likely have grave difficulty in medical school - be it in India or here in the U.S. I know someone who started medical school in India in 1993 or 1994 and just recently passed USMLE Step 1.
To do well in the U.S., you must do well on standardized/multiple choice tests. USMLE, MCAT, COMLEX, Board exams, are all standardized.
You might be familiar with life in India, but I presume that has been while you were on family vacations. Life as a student there is very different. IN medical school, there are no makeup exams if you are having a bad day. If you fail a subject, then you have to wait 6-12 months to repeat it. I know people who have lost years and years on a supposed 4.5-6 year medical school duration. Also, they don't handhold over there. They have to memorize a lot of material and their tests are very difficult.
Though you are young, I urge you to sincerely consider your strengths and limitations. You may waste years of your life trying to achieve a goal that someone else has set for you.

 

[Premedtomed]

Agreed The above post clearly explained what I intended to say the first time. Also, most ppl. there start med school at the age of 18. you will be 22/+ by the time you start med. school in India. Might feel a lil older as well.

 

[CaliAtenza]

Thanx for all teh help guys, its most apprecieated. But i've just decided for myself that i really want to become a doctor and im willing to struggle as hard as possible....i don't really see myself in anything else.

 

[Premedtomed]

Thanx for all teh help guys, its most apprecieated. But i've just decided for myself that i really want to become a doctor and im willing to struggle as hard as possible....i don't really see myself in anything else.

Good luck. MAy the Indian American influence coast you through

 

[CaliAtenza]

UPDATE: So after one year and a summer at UCI...with disastrous results...im going to india, somewhere in Bangalore. What college exactly, i don't know yet. Yeah i decided i don't wanna do anything else..plus i wanna join the US Armed Forces as soon as i get a degree and a license. How soon im going, im not sure yet..its gonna be within weeks though. Imma miss the states a lot, but i gotta do this for me, for my life. Besides, i'll be back here on vacations anyways. So thats it..if u guys have any other tips for me..please give em out.

 

[MD Rapper]

UPDATE: So after one year and a summer at UCI...with disastrous results...im going to india, somewhere in Bangalore. What college exactly, i don't know yet. Yeah i decided i don't wanna do anything else..plus i wanna join the US Armed Forces as soon as i get a degree and a license. How soon im going, im not sure yet..its gonna be within weeks though. Imma miss the states a lot, but i gotta do this for me, for my life. Besides, i'll be back here on vacations anyways. So thats it..if u guys have any other tips for me..please give em out.

Good luck... I know how tough/unfair undergraduate classes can be... especially at California schools! It seems like you have your heart set in the right place... don't let yourself get discouraged and stay focused when you get out there. I think you should be okay as long as you stay disciplined with your study habits. Whats awesome is that you are going back to the motherland and getting in touch with our culture.. (which I don't personally think I would have the guts to do at this point in my life). Thanks for the update man...

 

[CaliAtenza]

Good luck... I know how tough/unfair undergraduate classes can be... especially at California schools! It seems like you have your heart set in the right place... don't let yourself get discouraged and stay focused when you get out there. I think you should be okay as long as you stay disciplined with your study habits. Whats awesome is that you are going back to the motherland and getting in touch with our culture.. (which I don't personally think I would have the guts to do at this point in my life). Thanks for the update man...

thanx man! Do u guys know what books the cirriculum usually requires over there? And are there any good medical texts or books to take from here?