Future of Podiatry

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Medicine123456

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I understand that people on sdn can often be more pessimistic, but it seems like the vast majority of people consider podiatry a poor career choice for numerous reasons. With having good enough stats to go into DO/MD school, these forums make me reconsider my choice of podiatry school. My question is: do the overwhelming negative opinions of podiatry go away once you actually start to begin practicing? Is the bleakness on here confirmed by those that have been in the field for more than just a few years?

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wait lol GIF
 
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I understand that people on sdn can often be more pessimistic, but it seems like the vast majority of people consider podiatry a poor career choice for numerous reasons. With having good enough stats to go into DO/MD school, these forums make me reconsider my choice of podiatry school. My question is: do the overwhelming negative opinions of podiatry go away once you actually start to begin practicing? Is the bleakness on here confirmed by those that have been in the field for more than just a few years?
I actually enjoyed podiatry school and residency. All my "negativity" comes from practicing and my job hunts over the years.
 
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I'm sorry that you are discouraged by the negative feedback, but opening years of practice are tough for most people - even well trained people. The simple truth is that for many people the enjoyment of the field is diminished by the reimbursement, the cost, the long years, the disparity between what they are doing and how the field was marketed, their local practice enviroment, and the fixation of the public on having their nails trimmed. For most new MD/DO attendings there is an explosion of income in general commensurate with their new skills and years of training. That is not the case for the majority of podiatrists and yet we routinely suffer from the same liabilities.

Consider the following - imagine that podiatry school is 3 years and tuition is $10,000 a year. Imagine a residency where training opportunities are abundant but you may leave whenever your attendings feel you are ready. Imagine a world where an ingrown toenail is always $350, a bunion always $2000. The insurance always pays the full value. Where I'm going with this is - imagine that we could move the variables around at each side to reduce debt and training time or maximize reimbursement. Any field with the powers of God could jokingly be made to be better or worse, lucrative or frustrating. Podiatry would seem pretty lucrative in this world above. If all the above was true I'd say - be a podiatrist.

The unfortunate reality of podiatry is - schooling is too long, too expensive and getting more so. Its routinely $10,000 more a year then when I went just a few years ago. Many residencies are hit or miss and some can barely hit the minimum training requirements set by CPME that aren't actually enough to ensure strong training or proficiency. Without even taking into account the shady and dishonest nature of the podiatrists who will be under-paying you - reimbursement for most of what we do isn't sufficient and has been driven down through the years by billionaire companies.

In general, I enjoy what I do. I get along with patients. I receive great feedback from people. Its very satisfying to give someone the answer or the solution to a problem that no one else has been able to help with. However, I am also constantly stressed by reimbursement, by trying to keep my business running, by the need to justify and explain why we did what we did, and the fact that we constantly have to offer more.

A limited number of podiatrists will have the opportunity to work for a hospital or organization after residency. Some of them will do very well. Many of them will tell you the job comes with its own stress - the possibility of having to work private practice in the future. Their financial situation will start off much more steady. The difference between starting at $100K and $200K is enormous.

It should be problematic to anyone going into this profession that you routinely have to believe - I am special and different than everyone else and I am somehow going to be better than everyone else just for the purposes of starting off with a coveted job that... pays a little more money.
 
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it's not a good career for the majority of people.
 
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I think the negativity is lowest in school and pretty low in the first year or two of residency as you are so busy you don't have time to think about money/jobs. Then third year hits and you look out for jobs and people are competing over 100k jobs and your competing with other residents and fellowship trained podiatrist. I know people think wow I'll turn one of these down but these are some of the better job opportunities sometimes, my co resident just signed one of these for 100k a month ago, 10 days vacation, working 5 days a week, I believe some benefits but they'll have to pay for health insurance. That's after 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of podiatry school, 3 years of residency and 300k+ student debt.
 
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I think the negativity is lowest in school and pretty low in the first year or two of residency as you are so busy you don't have time to think about money/jobs. Then third year hits and you look out for jobs and people are competing over 100k jobs and your competing with other residents and fellowship trained podiatrist. I know people think wow I'll turn one of these down but these are some of the better job opportunities sometimes, my co resident just signed one of these for 100k a month ago, 10 days vacation, working 5 days a week, I believe some benefits but they'll have to pay for health insurance. That's after 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of podiatry school, 3 years of residency and 300k+ student debt.
Laughable “job” offer. So sad.
 
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I think the negativity is lowest in school and pretty low in the first year or two of residency as you are so busy you don't have time to think about money/jobs. Then third year hits and you look out for jobs and people are competing over 100k jobs and your competing with other residents and fellowship trained podiatrist. I know people think wow I'll turn one of these down but these are some of the better job opportunities sometimes, my co resident just signed one of these for 100k a month ago, 10 days vacation, working 5 days a week, I believe some benefits but they'll have to pay for health insurance. That's after 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of podiatry school, 3 years of residency and 300k+ student debt.
That’s terrible. I took a mediocre hospital offer as my first job in 2013. 150k, 4 weeks pto, 5000 cme paid, employer insurance, payment for miles for my outreach locations.
 
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I think the negativity is lowaest in school and pretty low in the first year or two of residency as you are so busy you don't have time to think about money/jobs. Then third year hits and you look out for jobs and people are competing over 100k jobs and your competing with other residents and fellowship trained podiatrist. I know people think wow I'll turn one of these down but these are some of the better job opportunities sometimes, my co resident just signed one of these for 100k a month ago, 10 days vacation, working 5 days a week, I believe some benefits but they'll have to pay for health insurance. That's after 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of podiatry school, 3 years of residency and 300k+ student debt.
I think the terrible thing about this situation is that even when you take this offer you still haven't taken the hit yet.

Its when the financial crisis that is your life hits that you realize how hard its going to be. Trying getting a paycheck for under $2K during the pandemic when you had just switched to collections only.

-My office pays $500 a person for health insurance now. I pay an additional $1000 for my family. If your office doesn't offer any benefits that's on you.
-You realize you are still going to be on an income based repayment plan for your loans
-You realize you are still in the same car you went to podiatry school in.
-You are starting a family and realize you have no down payment for a house, that current mortgage rates are 7%, and you were sure your life was going to be better after residency.

At one point I believed that % based collections was more important than base but base is very important when you have nothing.
 
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That’s terrible. I took a horrible hospital over as my first job. 150k, 4 weeks pto, 5000 cme paid, employer insurance, payment for miles for my outreach locations.

It is but these are the job offers people are getting. I've been getting offers from 60-120k. One of my coresidents got a great job, 130k starting 10 days pto, CME, benefits included. No bonus option first year and then they calculate it based on their formula.
 
It is but these are the job offers people are getting. I've been getting offers from 60-120k. One of my coresidents got a great job, 130k starting 10 days pto, CME, benefits included. No bonus option first year and then they calculate it based on their formula.
Definitely NOT a “great” job 😲
 
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I actually enjoyed podiatry school and residency. All my "negativity" comes from practicing and my job hunts over the years.
Yeah because you were in Candy land not the real world.
 
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I'm sorry that you are discouraged by the negative feedback, but opening years of practice are tough for most people - even well trained people. The simple truth is that for many people the enjoyment of the field is diminished by the reimbursement, the cost, the long years, the disparity between what they are doing and how the field was marketed, their local practice enviroment, and the fixation of the public on having their nails trimmed. For most new MD/DO attendings there is an explosion of income in general commensurate with their new skills and years of training. That is not the case for the majority of podiatrists and yet we routinely suffer from the same liabilities.

Consider the following - imagine that podiatry school is 3 years and tuition is $10,000 a year. Imagine a residency where training opportunities are abundant but you may leave whenever your attendings feel you are ready. Imagine a world where an ingrown toenail is always $350, a bunion always $2000. The insurance always pays the full value. Where I'm going with this is - imagine that we could move the variables around at each side to reduce debt and training time or maximize reimbursement. Any field with the powers of God could jokingly be made to be better or worse, lucrative or frustrating. Podiatry would seem pretty lucrative in this world above. If all the above was true I'd say - be a podiatrist.

The unfortunate reality of podiatry is - schooling is too long, too expensive and getting more so. Its routinely $10,000 more a year then when I went just a few years ago. Many residencies are hit or miss and some can barely hit the minimum training requirements set by CPME that aren't actually enough to ensure strong training or proficiency. Without even taking into account the shady and dishonest nature of the podiatrists who will be under-paying you - reimbursement for most of what we do isn't sufficient and has been driven down through the years by billionaire companies.

In general, I enjoy what I do. I get along with patients. I receive great feedback from people. Its very satisfying to give someone the answer or the solution to a problem that no one else has been able to help with. However, I am also constantly stressed by reimbursement, by trying to keep my business running, by the need to justify and explain why we did what we did, and the fact that we constantly have to offer more.

A limited number of podiatrists will have the opportunity to work for a hospital or organization after residency. Some of them will do very well. Many of them will tell you the job comes with its own stress - the possibility of having to work private practice in the future. Their financial situation will start off much more steady. The difference between starting at $100K and $200K is enormous.

It should be problematic to anyone going into this profession that you routinely have to believe - I am special and different than everyone else and I am somehow going to be better than everyone else just for the purposes of starting off with a coveted job that... pays a little more money.
Right. So what if I wanted to build a practice that specializes in elective surgery? Is that a possibility?
 
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It is but these are the job offers people are getting. I've been getting offers from 60-120k. One of my coresidents got a great job, 130k starting 10 days pto, CME, benefits included. No bonus option first year and then they calculate it based on their formula.
Sounds like a "great" job.
 
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I understand that people on sdn can often be more pessimistic, but it seems like the vast majority of people consider podiatry a poor career choice for numerous reasons. With having good enough stats to go into DO/MD school, these forums make me reconsider my choice of podiatry school. My question is: do the overwhelming negative opinions of podiatry go away once you actually start to begin practicing? Is the bleakness on here confirmed by those that have been in the field for more than just a few years?
I don't think the negativity ever truly goes away, you just get older and realize what's the point of being negative. I made my bed and now I gotta sleep in it. I don't think anyone on here hates their lives outright, you just learn to accept the station you've landed in and find happiness within those confines.

Doesn't mean we can't tell you to make better choices than we made.
 
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It is but these are the job offers people are getting. I've been getting offers from 60-120k. One of my coresidents got a great job, 130k starting 10 days pto, CME, benefits included. No bonus option first year and then they calculate it based on their formula.
may I ask what area youre looking for jobs in? ive only talked personally with 4 doctors recently out of residency on their starting job offers. all 4 went into private practice making 200-250k starting when all the bonus structure worked out.
 
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may I ask what area youre looking for jobs in? ive only talked personally with 4 doctors recently out of residency on their starting job offers. all 4 went into private practice making 200-250k starting when all the bonus structure worked out.
What area are YOU seeing or hearing about people getting these high offers?
 
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What area are YOU seeing or hearing about people getting these high offers?
3 of them were in chicago, 2 of those 3 joined the same PP group actually. the Milwaukee is private practice hes the only associate with option to purchase practice after time

- Should note these people were also getting the low ball offers im seeing here, they just didnt take them
 
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For anyone interested in more solid data on different professions and what they get paid, you should check out the MGMA reports. For starting job offer you should be asking for close to the bottom 10% pay for the speciality listed. There is this data posted every year and includes every speciality you can think of, this data is used in job negotiations and offers. You can also get the data regionally sorted

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Those salaries are correct for hospital employeed, which maybe 10% of your class (not the top 10%, just 10% willing to move out to the middle of nowhere would get). I did get one friend who got a hospital job, 3000 population of the city, they do have a Dunkin Donuts though! Most people in private practice are not getting that starting, especially near Chicago or Milwaukee. Places like Chicago are notorious for salaries at or below 100k.
 
(a) That's presumably MGMA data.
(b) Its only applicable to hospital employment
(c) Private practice pods aren't going to have access to it because it costs money.
(d) We're moving the goal posts here. Starting salary and "with bonuses" is not the same thing.
(e) On this forum we aspire give you give you a level of understanding and insight greater than just "I know a guy making this much money". Making $200K on $400K of collections is not the same thing as making $200K on $600K of collections. We routinely see contracts that would create dynamics like the latter.
(f) There are a lot of practices exploiting skin grafts right now and the financial implications of this make valuing practices very difficult. A friend of mine worked for a practice that was bringing in hundreds of thousands of dollars sticking tiny overpriced grafts on anything that came through the door. These houses of cards will be coming down in the future to presumably be replaced with whatever the next fad is.

I explained to a patient today that I wouldn't be ordering any nail pathology on them because it was overpriced and stupid and they would likely receive a bill for $500-700. The patient laughed and woefully told me that his wife had been dinged for a $700 nail PCR test that did nothing to advance her care. Podiatrists routinely try to cash in on these sort of misadventures to patients' detriment.
 
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3 of them were in chicago, 2 of those 3 joined the same PP group actually. the Milwaukee is private practice hes the only associate with option to purchase practice after time

- Should note these people were also getting the low ball offers im seeing here, they just didnt take them


lol I dont believe it. Particularly in light of you posting MGMA salaries after your post about supposed private practice offers.

There is a GOOD reason why we (even those of us who are in good situations) are poo pooing this profession. It's because it generally deserves it. You can't just relocate in this profession for a good job. Guess what, with an MD/DO or RN/PA - you can. Our turf generally isn't ours like opto or dental. If by making money, you mean taking nail biopsies and send it off to your private lab, then yes, big money to be made. If by big money, you mean pushing potion, lotions, and scrubs to to patients like salon, then yes big money to be made.

Having to constantly explain and re-explain what it is that we do, knowing full well for those of us who do good work we are competent to do it is ingrained into this profession. It's a failure of marketing, and it's a failure of leadership; and a matter of greed given market saturation. When you spend the better part of your youth buried in books and going through residency - you have an expectation that things (career/getting a job/pay/ability to use your skills) will happen without going through further hardship. In podiatry, every single step is a hurdle. Does this happen in ophthalmology or dentistry or hand surgery -- Is the public confused about their abilities or what they can do?

250+K in loans, for a 70-125K salary. If offers were so great - they would be advertised that way on PM news or any public job site.

But to what hey brother said so eloquently - this is the bed I've made, gonna have to sleep in it. Consider it a public service we are sounding the alarm and telling you the truth about this profession. We should all be inducted in the podiatry hall of fame for our work. Right up there with the greats....the giants.
 
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If you shadow me I’ll gladly show you my paychecks from my first job and you can see first hand this doctor-fantasy lifestyle will not exist for the majority of new grads regardless of your Harvard level orthonerveplastic transplantation fellowship. You will never get this level of honesty and transparency from your favorite instagram podiatrist.

Your schools of course will never tell you about this.
 
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If you shadow me I’ll gladly show you my paychecks from my first job and you can see first hand this doctor-fantasy lifestyle will not exist for the majority of new grads regardless of your Harvard level orthonerveplastic transplantation fellowship. You will never get this level of honesty and transparency from your favorite instagram podiatrist.

Your schools of course will never tell you about this.

Likewise. I will happily show off my garbage paychecks from my first job. The hundreds of job applications that I put in before I finally got a job that wasn’t garbage PP. I feel extremely lucky that I was able to escape the garbage PP world. I spent many sleepless nights practicing on a banana with my knee pads trying to score a job that that would have dozens of other applicants being interviewed (after they filtered out literally hundreds of applications to narrow down for interviews).

Podiatry is oversaturated and the job market blows. I don’t believe that brand new account posting PP job offers for 200+, very suspicious for a private practice owner looking to perpetuate the great podiatry lie to sucker in more associate slave labor.
 
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One MIGHT end up doing really with podiatry, but why swim upstream when you don't have to?

There is such an incredible demand for so many other healthcare professions with a labor shortage that will be present for decades.
 
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One MIGHT end up doing really with podiatry, but why swim upstream when you don't have to?

There is such an incredible demand for so many other healthcare professions with a labor shortage that will be present for decades.

I just wanted to point out that with an aging population, increasing obesity, and rampant diabetes that there will be a HUGE DEMAND for professions like nurses, but not really podiatrists unlike how some of our sleazy politicians and TFP mustaches lead us on to believe.
 
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I just wanted to point out that with an aging population, increasing obesity, and rampant diabetes that there will be a HUGE DEMAND for professions like nurses, but not really podiatrists unlike how some of our sleazy politicians and TFP mustaches lead us on to believe.
TRUTH

Hospitals absolutely need RNs, CRNAs, PAs,NPs, and need MDs and DOs in most specialties. There is a shortage that will not be meet for decades. They will pay the going rate give or take a small amount in any market.

That means the ability to choose from several jobs in almost any market. You can switch from high volume high compensation to part time or lower volume academic setting pretty easy in most specialties. You can probably find a 6 figure desk job also.

Podiatry is not an essential specialty. Yes some podiatrists can release some pressure on other specialties at some hospitals for diabetic pus and as an Ortho Foot replacement as they are difficult to find. Actually a few hospitals employee podiatrists in a more PP model, but that is not a large number percentage wise.

Despite the shortage in many healthcare fields podiatry demand will increase a couple percent per year. The schools are expanding faster than that. Podiatry is largely still private practice....much like a Vet, Dentist or Chiropractor. The major down side there is we are saturated in most areas.

Decreasing supply is the only way to significantly change things. With less supply a higher percentage get the good jobs, more in PP will offer better salaries and partnership. It will also make going solo a bit easier.

Is being a non essential specialty all bad. It is not when supply is low....think Dermatology one of the most desirable specialties for MDs.

If there was not such huge demand for so many other healthcare professions podiatry might be worth the risk.

If you are already in school or residency just put yourself in your best situation to get the best first job you can.....even if it ends up not being great. It is not easy, but many have found better second or third jobs or gone solo before you. Graduating residency is supposed to be the fun part, but for many in podiatry that is when the most stressful part begins.
 
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I just wanted to point out that with an aging population, increasing obesity, and rampant diabetes that there will be a HUGE DEMAND for professions like nurses, but not really podiatrists unlike how some of our sleazy politicians and TFP mustaches lead us on to believe.
yeah ya know what... if you're reading this and wanna go to podiatry DONT you will make 48k a year and work 90 hours a week. There will be massive demand for EVERYTHING BUT podiatry, especially with all these older boomer podiatrists retiring (they just will sell their practices to... dentists or something idk but NOT US) RUN from podiatry RUN
 
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you will make 48k a year and work 90 hours a week

Exaggeration above in almost all cases (sadly it might be possible for the worst of the worst employer on a collection only job at slow Medicaid clinics).......but figuratively speaking it often feels like it in PP with low/no base and low benefits and often with some combination of call/hospital/nursing homes/Saturdays possible.

Some practices have lots of upside potential with the low/no base, but most practices suggest unlimited upside potential...when it is often very limited. Some even advertise the salary as what they feel you will likely make with bonus. Most jobs don't like to advertise salary. Have seen ortho do this also but they advertise 1 million possible first year. For podiatry they might say 250,000 salary then later you find out the base is closer to 100K and they feel 250K is very possible with bonus but is not your salary.

There are some great private practices, but they tend to be either competitive, word of mouth jobs or are somewhat remote. You are more likely (but not guaranteed) to get a good private practice job and fast/fair buy in your hometown if you are not from a saturated area and they know you are set on coming back to the area. They know you might potentially open across the street or work somewhere else that taps into their same market.

It is often promised but very tough for a solo doctor to offer partnership unless they are very close to retirement. Some lie and some really believe they are ready for partnership, but even most of those are not. Many are too emotionally attached to their practice and also have an inflated idea of value.. You can understand a bit due to the risk and effort they put in to make it happen. The end result is still a bad job market for new residency graduates.It is much easier to join a practice of 3 or more if all they are all partners (if they are all associates forget about it) and become a partner. They have the formula and process down. So if after a couple years you are a reasonable producer with a normal/stable personality you will usually be given a fair buy in.
 
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