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Let's debate who can buy more things, a homeless man or Bill Gates. For the sake of argument, we'll assume they have an equal amount of money.
Full Scholarship to MUSC v. Johns Hopkins
- Thread starter Dr Gerrard
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Let's debate who can buy more things, a homeless man or Bill Gates. For the sake of argument, we'll assume they have an equal amount of money.
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99.9% havent entered the field of medicine.
most of us our premeds, some med students.
stop talking about
-opening doors
-match lists
-salary
-connections
-etc.
we dont know anything. its just a bunch of conjecture
most of us our premeds, some med students.
stop talking about
-opening doors
-match lists
-salary
-connections
-etc.
we dont know anything. its just a bunch of conjecture
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i definitely dont think thats a valid assumption dude.
and it is one that greatly affects your arguments.
if being at the top of your class is really that important, i think it would be MUCH easier to do so at MUSC than at hopkins.
hopkins name is important, no doubt. but an additional $180k is a LOT of money.
we pretty much decided that hopkins is better in all areas but money. even then, since MUSC can get you wherever you want (although maybe a bit harder), it is still in this race.
plus, he's not trying to be some big shot doctor.
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But that's a terrible, awful, and completely irrational assumption. It's like assuming that guys in the Olympics can't run any faster than the local HS track team. Hopkins takes nothig but people with incredibly high MCATs and just about perfect GPAs with incredible research records. They ARE smarter than the guys at MUSC. The guy has has a much better chance of impressing his PI and getting research pubs, of impressing his attendings on his rotation, and of getting AOA if he goes to the easier school. It's also going to mean that they'll teach more to the Step, and probably that they have a better Step 1 review program. Those things matter WAY more than than the Hopkins name in the residecy match, just like Ugrad GPA matters way more than Ugrad name in medical school admissions.
Even without the extra 180K I'd say the other school would probably be better for his career. The debt makes it no contest.
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the guy also has no interest in research...
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Let's debate who can buy more things, a homeless man or Bill Gates. For the sake of argument, we'll assume they have an equal amount of money.
Post of the Year
(And this is not to hate on MUSC, I will probably be going there)
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Any irony in the fact that you are attending med school on a free ride with stipend, yet you are so sure that picking up an extra $200k in debt will make this poor slob's life easier?
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Maybe that wasn't the best assumption to make, I'll concede that. The point I was trying to make is that at Hopkins, it doesn't seem to matter where in the class one graduates. Look at their match list, which is universally solid:
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/jhmsa/programs/MatchDay.html
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/jhmsa/programs/MatchDay.html
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Which means he probably doesn't have any interest in Academics..... which means he should go to MUSC and in 10 years he will be buying a sweet fishing boat while his buddies from Hopkins are 200k in the hole and making 120K as an Assistant Professor at some "Big Name" med school
(Not to bash academics, but financially speaking they make a ton less)
One of the MAIN REASONS to attend a top school is because of the research that you can do. This opens a lot of opportunities as well as matters if you want to go into academic medicine. The fact that he has NO interests in research makes this a very simple choice i think. Go to the cheap state school. If he has no interest in research (and therefore academic medicine) a lot of the advantages that hopkins can offer will not matter much for him.
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In his position, I would take the debt.
And let's not get into the financial BS of MD/PhD programs.
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I would go with MUSC. You'll come out with no debt, and plus, you could go to JHU for residency.
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No hate here either. I would have been very happy at MUSC. It's a very solid school and it's in a beautiful location. The students are going to be very different though, and that's no shot at MUSC. The fact that this guy has no interest in research and likely wants to go into private practice makes this a no-brainer. Whatever residency he wants, MUSC has and he'll be able to impress them during rotations. Take the money and run, dawg...
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I would take the money.
It is of course a personal decision. How much does that warm and fuzzy feeling of prestige matter to you? Having your mom tell her friends etc. Do you want to do primary care (favors MUSC with no debt) or neurosurgery (favors JHU's connections, and money will be less of an issue). Which school do you actually like more and will be happier at, discounting prestige?
Want to know what's more prestigious than going to Hopkins medical school?
Turning down Hopkins medical school.
It is of course a personal decision. How much does that warm and fuzzy feeling of prestige matter to you? Having your mom tell her friends etc. Do you want to do primary care (favors MUSC with no debt) or neurosurgery (favors JHU's connections, and money will be less of an issue). Which school do you actually like more and will be happier at, discounting prestige?
Want to know what's more prestigious than going to Hopkins medical school?
Turning down Hopkins medical school.
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Let me get this straight. The guys has
a. no interest in research
b. does not want to enter academic medicine
c. gets a full ride to a respected school, MUSC - in a great city
d. gets no aid from Hopkins
what's the issue here? What would be the benefit of going to Hopkins? What, so you can put the sheep skin on you wall? Go to MUSC, save the money, make bank as a practicing physician.
Easy easy decision
a. no interest in research
b. does not want to enter academic medicine
c. gets a full ride to a respected school, MUSC - in a great city
d. gets no aid from Hopkins
what's the issue here? What would be the benefit of going to Hopkins? What, so you can put the sheep skin on you wall? Go to MUSC, save the money, make bank as a practicing physician.
Easy easy decision
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also, Charleston is like 70% women. most of them are really good looking and single. The one cute girl on The Wire that didn't get shot didn't even like men. just sayin'
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Guys. According to residency directors that I have talked to at Hopkins Hospital and other members of the faculty in various departments. There are two schools in the country (3 maybe depending on who you ask) that are essentially untouchable. They have so much prestige that you can litterally graduate last in your class and still have your pick of residency. You guys can guess what those two schools are (hint: they both begin with H). The 3rd is UCSF. This is a fact of life and the OP needs to consider this seriously. Every single door will be open to you by attending Hopkins. If you really have no interest in academia, research, prestige and you want to be a family doc or private practice then it probably isn't worth going to Hopkins. The fact of the matter is what you want may change in 4 years. Hopkins used to ask in the secondary application What specialty do you see your self going into? After years of data they found out that only 30% of people went into the field that they wrote. This could be because most applicant put down what they thought the admissions committee wanted to hear but it is still an alarming percentage. We all think that we know where we will end up in 4 years. I'd venture to guess that we really don't. Hopkins is kind of an insurance policy that lets you do what you want no matter what you end up in. I have never seen a doctor on the side of the highway with a sign that says "will do physical exam for food" when that starts happening then maybe this decision should give you pause. There are thousands of medstudents around the country paying full price from much lower ranked schools or unranked schools. They all end up having a relatively successful life without serious worries about finances. Ok that was my two cents. I am sure what I've said would lead to some disparaging remarks but c'est la vie.
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not having debt kinda opens a ****load of doors too, esp if you want to do family practice and then get to your 3rd/4th year with all these loans piling up and every one of your colleagues going after specialties and top notch residencies, you might be inclined to forgo your initial wishes for primary care. not saying that's gonna make your life miserable in the end or leave you full of regrets but there is a small possibility. i'm just playing the devils advocate.
the honest question to ask is, are you going to be more stressed out about not having the same competitiveness at the Y residency or will you be stressed out about paying X% of your check to your student loans, another Y% to your mortgage, and another Z% because your beamer, benz or bently has to be as nice as that of the guy who went to hopkins on a full ride. I went to college, took some loans, worked for a couple of years and figured out that I hated paying a part of my tiny check to the man every month and had to plan around everything. I sucked with money and that stressed me out more than the idea of having to have a great education, so I picked my med school based on financial decisions (acknowledging that I will have minor regrets).
If you are still in school and aren't sure how paying loans back will affect you, here is a plan. Within the next 2 days, get a top of the shelf hooker that costs $$$$. don't pay her immediately. cut off all your parents money/credit cards/etc. wait for the pimp to approach you, ask him to give you an extra day/charge you interest to pay him back. work your ass off for the money and pay the pimp back with interest. then, look back and ask yourself if it was worth it. if it was, go with JHU, if not, go with MUSC.
my dad was a fellowship director for cards for like a year and he directs research now, he does say that if you come out of hopkins, you will be really well off. he is also in his mid-40s and has 50k in loans (and i have a brother that is 9 years younger).
the honest question to ask is, are you going to be more stressed out about not having the same competitiveness at the Y residency or will you be stressed out about paying X% of your check to your student loans, another Y% to your mortgage, and another Z% because your beamer, benz or bently has to be as nice as that of the guy who went to hopkins on a full ride. I went to college, took some loans, worked for a couple of years and figured out that I hated paying a part of my tiny check to the man every month and had to plan around everything. I sucked with money and that stressed me out more than the idea of having to have a great education, so I picked my med school based on financial decisions (acknowledging that I will have minor regrets).
If you are still in school and aren't sure how paying loans back will affect you, here is a plan. Within the next 2 days, get a top of the shelf hooker that costs $$$$. don't pay her immediately. cut off all your parents money/credit cards/etc. wait for the pimp to approach you, ask him to give you an extra day/charge you interest to pay him back. work your ass off for the money and pay the pimp back with interest. then, look back and ask yourself if it was worth it. if it was, go with JHU, if not, go with MUSC.
my dad was a fellowship director for cards for like a year and he directs research now, he does say that if you come out of hopkins, you will be really well off. he is also in his mid-40s and has 50k in loans (and i have a brother that is 9 years younger).
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I think there are a number of things most people aren't considering in this equation.
1) People change their mind about what they want to do in medicine. Prior to starting med school I was still thinking about going into rads but I was pretty set on private practice, as opposed to my current career trajectory towards academic rads.
2) Even if you do decide to go into academic med, you'll keep a wider range of options open in terms of practice groups and have a wider social/professional network if you decide to go to a different area. This is pretty key for referrals.
3) With no disrespect to MUSC, which is a solid school,at JHU, you'll have exposure to residency programs that are almost universally top tier, many of them the best in their respective fields in the country, exposure to an incredible range of clinicians doing state of the art experimental procedures that aren't done at smaller medical centers.
Is all of this worth the difference in cost? Of course this is a personal decision but there's a lot of value that comes from training with the best.
1) People change their mind about what they want to do in medicine. Prior to starting med school I was still thinking about going into rads but I was pretty set on private practice, as opposed to my current career trajectory towards academic rads.
2) Even if you do decide to go into academic med, you'll keep a wider range of options open in terms of practice groups and have a wider social/professional network if you decide to go to a different area. This is pretty key for referrals.
3) With no disrespect to MUSC, which is a solid school,at JHU, you'll have exposure to residency programs that are almost universally top tier, many of them the best in their respective fields in the country, exposure to an incredible range of clinicians doing state of the art experimental procedures that aren't done at smaller medical centers.
Is all of this worth the difference in cost? Of course this is a personal decision but there's a lot of value that comes from training with the best.
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Well that answers it right there. If he is also interested in primary care, then maybe he should go with the state-school.
I'm just a bit surprised he has no interest in research though. I figured to get into Johns Hopkins, you needed a fair amount at the undergrad level....and I thought that's the kinda physicians JHU wants to produce.
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+1, Very good points
not to be a jerk but I had never heard of MUSC and had to look it up to see what it stands for...
obviously just because people haven't heard of an particular institution doesnt mean its not prestigious..but my point is some residency directors outside of the South may not be familiar with MUSC's prestige while EVERYONE in the field of medicine and their mothers are familiar with hopkins..and the chances are against you if the residency director is not familiar with your institution (I am not familiar with MUSC prestige so I am not the right person to comment but just saying something to think about..)..and if you thought getting into a top-25 med school was difficult..wait until you apply for residency at the top programs...
and if you argue that prestige and school name don't matter in residency, you will be in for a rude shock when you apply (assuming you want to apply to the top programs in your field of choice)...check out the allopathic forums and residency forums if you don't believe me...if you are not applying to the top programs in your field then yeah it doesnt matter where you go..
debt is very important but as someone mentioned some things are worth the money...i feel like money should be less of an issue for him especially since he has no undergrad debt...if he already had $160,000 in undergrad debt i would say go to MUSC..but it really depends on what your friend wants to do, what field he wants to go in and where he wants to live geographically during residency as well..
if he wants to stay in the southeast for residency, doesnt care about doing residency in the top programs in his field, and/or wants to do a low-paying specialty then go to MUSC!
obviously just because people haven't heard of an particular institution doesnt mean its not prestigious..but my point is some residency directors outside of the South may not be familiar with MUSC's prestige while EVERYONE in the field of medicine and their mothers are familiar with hopkins..and the chances are against you if the residency director is not familiar with your institution (I am not familiar with MUSC prestige so I am not the right person to comment but just saying something to think about..)..and if you thought getting into a top-25 med school was difficult..wait until you apply for residency at the top programs...
and if you argue that prestige and school name don't matter in residency, you will be in for a rude shock when you apply (assuming you want to apply to the top programs in your field of choice)...check out the allopathic forums and residency forums if you don't believe me...if you are not applying to the top programs in your field then yeah it doesnt matter where you go..
debt is very important but as someone mentioned some things are worth the money...i feel like money should be less of an issue for him especially since he has no undergrad debt...if he already had $160,000 in undergrad debt i would say go to MUSC..but it really depends on what your friend wants to do, what field he wants to go in and where he wants to live geographically during residency as well..
if he wants to stay in the southeast for residency, doesnt care about doing residency in the top programs in his field, and/or wants to do a low-paying specialty then go to MUSC!
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You may not have hard of MUSC, but I can guarantee you residency directors have. Obviously not to the extent that they know of Hopkins, but they've definitely heard of it and probably have taken a few residents from there at some point in the past.
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Take the money if you plan to rock your boards..extra money down the line to invest(if you know what you're doing)
if you may want to party while in medical school and be more laid back, but still want to be competitive down the line, go to Hopkins.
if you may want to party while in medical school and be more laid back, but still want to be competitive down the line, go to Hopkins.
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Not to be cruel, but this is honestly an appropriate analogy. Your friend may feel very out of place at MUSC.
It's kind of hard to justify spending 180k extra. Try to imagine if both schools were free, but MUSC was giving you $180,000 to go there, would you choose it? In the end, 180k will probably end up being substantially more due to accruing debt over the years.
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Yup. Everyone keeps saying that it's better to be the best student at MUSC than average at Hopkins. Who in the world says that's true? I have yet to see one non-impressive match from JHU. The people you meet, the mentors who write you recommendations...hell, residencies are in part evaluated based on the schools their trainees went to. You'll be "the Hopkins guy" everywhere you go after you graduate (granted, this may be a bad thing in some settings). It'll lend legitimacy to your training without you ever having to say "well, but I was in the top 25% of the class...". It might sometimes be an intangible benefit, but it's one nonetheless.
Absolutely. It's a personal decision. You don't know what you want to do with your life yet and how one choice or the other will affect that (you may end up loving family practice, in which case Hopkins will have been semi-useless and you'll be buried in debt...). All you know is that if you go to MUSC and you want to go into, say, derm at Harvard you'll have to be the number one student in your class, compete for an away rotation there, and probably do research anyway (with less impressive faculty). But if you want to do family practice in South Carolina then Hopkins will have been a waste of money.
I'd go to Hopkins cause I'd rather find myself in the position of having to pay back my loans than possibly being stuck in a specialty I don't like or a location I despise, but that's me. To each his/her own.
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For me it would be a no-brainer...I would go to MUSC. Charleston is suuuuch a fun and amazing city and MUSC is a fantastic hospital and place to learn.
Its definitely a personal choice. The main thing that matters is the guy's happiness. Will he relish in the fact that he got into one of the most prestigious institutions for training in his profession or will he regret the fact for a decade or so while paying off debt that all other med graduates have to pay off anyway?
Gerrardo what did your friend decide?
Gerrardo what did your friend decide?
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turns out he has til saturday.
he is leaning musc because residency is what matters
he is leaning musc because residency is what matters
chance he gets derm at Harvard even if he was the number 1 student at MUSC is very low (not saying its impossible but the odds are very much against him)...go check the biographies of the residents at Harvard's websites..the residents are almost all former Ivy League students (there are a few outliers, here and there but vast majority are from top schools and even the outliers have MD/PhDs or some other joint degree...its not easy to get into the top residency programs, especially in one of the most competitive fields)...if he wants to do a ROAD residency at a top program then Hopkins is his best option..he can still get into a ROAD specialty if rocks the boards as a MUSC student, but chances are it won't be at the top programs just because its so insanely competitive and school name/prestige does matter at academic powerhouses...
enjoy:
http://www.harvardradonc.org/residents.asp
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I have followed this thread because I think it is interesting to read the different responses. Personally, I don't think the individual in question can do wrong with either school. One thing I can't help but wonder is if many of the posters realize the quality of MUSC and their reputation. Granted, MUSC may not compare to directly Hopkins, or Harvard, but not ALL top residents come from these 2 schools. There are great schools everywhere, and physicians I have discussed this with (ie, those who have actually experienced the process) suggest that the quality of the school will help minimally, unless it is the ONLY thing separating two candidates.
Tha other thing I cannot accept is the suggestion that a student in the bottom 25%at Hopkins, with average board scores is in better shape than a top 25% student at MUSC with excellent board scores as has been alluded to by many posters simply because of their undergraduate education. At the end of the day, there is not one distinct formula to determine residency placement, just as there was not one formula used to determine who is accepted to Medical Schools.
Regardless of the final decision, if this student maximizes their opportunities and asks the right questions along the way, they will be able to choose an excellent residency in an excellent location.
For what its worth, I would follow the money in this case and make sure to get involved with everything possible.
Tha other thing I cannot accept is the suggestion that a student in the bottom 25%at Hopkins, with average board scores is in better shape than a top 25% student at MUSC with excellent board scores as has been alluded to by many posters simply because of their undergraduate education. At the end of the day, there is not one distinct formula to determine residency placement, just as there was not one formula used to determine who is accepted to Medical Schools.
Regardless of the final decision, if this student maximizes their opportunities and asks the right questions along the way, they will be able to choose an excellent residency in an excellent location.
For what its worth, I would follow the money in this case and make sure to get involved with everything possible.
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you have to be careful when you draw inferences like that. the type of students that attend those "super" schools is different than those that attend state schools.
in general, ppl with 4.0 40+ are probably more likely to be the high achievers who want derm and who also end up at the "super schools"
this entire thread is full of garbage
Ridiculous. It is the same human body that you study whether you do it in MUSC or Hopkins. In the first two years your studies will be guided by BRS and first aid and you can rip open a cadaver just as easily at either place. In the third year you are doing rotations that last 12 weeks at most and usually alot less. This means that you are just there to pick up the basics which you can do just fine at MUSC, learning how to be a doctor is done in residency. Fourth year is where you slack off like there was no tomorrow (and since residency is starting soon there really is no tomorrow). So unless you really look forward to paying about 2000 a month for the next 20 years go to MUSC.
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Pitt, Chicago, and Sinai full-rides instead attend Hopkins?!?! I'm not gonna argue that Hopkin's isn't great. But seriously, those kids are just stupid for giving up free rides at awesome schools. Hopkins is a special place, but in comparison to schools like that it's just not THAT good. 4 years of Pittsburgh, Chicago, of NYC for FREE?!?!! vs. 4 years in Baltimore....when you can go into any residency program you want from any of those schools.
Now that's just silly.
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Yea I agree, that was just a plain stupid decision. It's one thing to give up a free-ride to MUSC or a school that is not as well known for JHU. But Mount Sinai, Chicago, and Pittsburg have comparable prestige, matchlists, and reputation. Poor decision making in my opinion.
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Hey, I'm not saying I agree with their decisions (I personally think it's a bit crazy myself). I'm just saying that this is the reality, and most kids at Hopkins wouldn't think twice about this situation (Hopkins vs. full ride at MUSC)...but that's why they are at Hopkins and not their state school...
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Obviously I am not suggesting that the content students learn will be qualitatively different, but the experience certainly will be. Medical school is four years of your life (at least) and the friendships and faculty connections you make there last a lifetime...the people your friend will become connected to at MUSC are going to be doing different things in a smaller geographic range than the people he would get to know at Hopkins. That is the reality. That's all I'm saying...if your friend wants the freedom to have a national/global network of people who are going to be leaders in a variety of fields in medicine, it would make sense to consider Hopkins strongly. If he wants to stay in the southeast and do family practice, MUSC obviously makes a lot more sense. It is all about this kid's personal preferences...
Who said anything about family practice. Last I checked MUSC was a US allopathic school, not a DO or carribean school. The majority of grads will match into the specialty of their choice.
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Here is some match facts from MUSC, they don't list where people matched, but it does show that pretty much any specialty will be open to someone doing well at MUSC.
http://academicdepartments.musc.edu/com1/admissions/match_stats.htm
6 in Ortho, 1 Urology
and for the ROAD
Rads- 6
Optho- 4
Anes-11
Derm-4
Rad Onc- 4
http://academicdepartments.musc.edu/com1/admissions/match_stats.htm
6 in Ortho, 1 Urology
and for the ROAD
Rads- 6
Optho- 4
Anes-11
Derm-4
Rad Onc- 4
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ill update as soon as i know... tomorrow at some point
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Tough choice, ultimately strangers on message boards probably don't have a lot of insight into what is a very personal decision, since money is such a big issue here.
A quick point though: I often hear people debating between schools assume that they'll be a top student at the lesser known school. Terrible, terrible assumption. Pre-med skills don't necessarily translate to medical school, and the whole process can be a bit of a crapshoot. You can match anywhere as a top student at a lesser-known school, but the chances are you won't be the top student at a lesser known school. It's definitely a perk of top schools that you can match well despite not being a top student - that alone isn't worth 180,000, but it is what it is.
A quick point though: I often hear people debating between schools assume that they'll be a top student at the lesser known school. Terrible, terrible assumption. Pre-med skills don't necessarily translate to medical school, and the whole process can be a bit of a crapshoot. You can match anywhere as a top student at a lesser-known school, but the chances are you won't be the top student at a lesser known school. It's definitely a perk of top schools that you can match well despite not being a top student - that alone isn't worth 180,000, but it is what it is.
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Final decision: MUSC
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I made a similar decision this year and don't regret it one bit so far. It was difficult to arrive at, but now that it's done I'm happy with it. All of JHU's people can place in really good residencies, but so can those same people at any other school they go to. Ultimately, paying a ton of extra money for any school doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Especially if you are someone who is interested in starting a family, etc. I wouldn't knock anyone for choosing JHU in this situation, but in reality both are great options and anyone who can get into top-5 schools can do great anywhere they go.
Agree 100% with this. It's impossible to predict how well you will do in med school. It's a different beast.
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I agree... This response is awesome and cleverly answered the OP's question
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I had to post on this thread because I was speaking to two of my friends who are graduating from top three med schools with 300K in debt. They both said "take the money and run and they is no guarantee that you can do a top tier residency from any school. Step one scores are far more important".
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