For top residency spots in GS or Neurosurgery, which Medical Schools in the UK would make you someone they'll seriously consider?

[BurningLighter]

Meaning top residency spots (eg. MGH) and/or residency spots in competitive cities (eg. NYC, Chicago, Boston) in General Surgery or Neurosurgery.

Of course no school is going to be a ticket to Matching in these but some schools might give an extra boost on name recognition, being able to use connections the schools have with those top institutions and obviously the professors and research opportunities are going to be different at Cambridge than at Aston. But either way, which UK schools would you say would fit into the category where the application reviewers are going to consider you as a serious, competitive applicant? I've seen some residents from Ireland - specifically the RCSI and some from Greece but not much info on UK stats, any info?

Oxford, Cambridge are no brainers but how about Imperial, Edinburgh, Glasgow, UCL, King's etc.?

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[mikeGR]

Probably not what you were hoping to hear, but as an IMG your application will be reviewed in a very different light compared to US grads.

Even if you study in Cambridge/Oxford, you are still an IMG for them and you start the race from a mile behind (perhaps at a slight advantage compared to Asian grads but not much). Most programs still "screen out" all IMG applications. What matters more are the personal connections programs may have, but in the US, faculty move fairly frequently so the landscape may be quite different 5 years from now.

So overall, med school name will probably not be a major factor in your residency application as an IMG. You will have to excel individually and cultivate personal connections with US programs (through research, clinical rotations, conferences etc). Being at a reputable med school may help some with the latter.

Cheers,
M

 

[BurningLighter]

Probably not what you were hoping to hear, but as an IMG your application will be reviewed in a very different light compared to US grads.

Even if you study in Cambridge/Oxford, you are still an IMG for them and you start the race from a mile behind. Most programs still "screen out" all IMG applications. What matters more are the personal connections programs may have, but in the US, faculty move fairly frequently so the landscape may be quite different 5 years from now.

So overall, med school name will probably not be a major factor in your residency application as an IMG. You will have to excel individually and cultivate personal connections with US programs (through research, clinical rotations, conferences etc). Being at a reputable med school may help some with the latter.

Cheers,
M

"A mile behind". Couldn't have said it better. But say IMG's at a program X would be semi-screened out by university, which ones would make the cut? I mean I'm assuming if a program has one or two IMG spots, having something like Imperial would look quite favourable as opposed to St. George's (London university one but ranking less than 200) even if both have high Step 2 scores, same research and rotations.

 

[mikeGR]

"A mile behind". Couldn't have said it better. But say IMG's at a program X would be semi-screened out by university, which ones would make the cut? I mean I'm assuming if a program has one or two IMG spots, having something like Imperial would look quite favourable as opposed to St. George's (London university one but ranking less than 200) even if both have high Step 2 scores, same research and rotations.

My impression is that many programs would favor the St George's candidate over an Oxford grad since they are familiar with their med school (considered "worse" than US schools but a known quantity = less risk). In general, PDs prioritize lower risk over higher reward. When IMGs get screened out, no "school" or "country" makes the cut. It's as simple as filtering applications by US grad vs US IMG vs FMG. If they have a reason, they will specifically hand-pick some additional applications to review (i.e if you rotated there or if someone they trust vouches for you).

Also, it is very hard to implement a strategy where your program reliably has 1-2 IMG spots, due to the way the match works (all applicants in the same pool). If a program wants to match 1-2 IMGs, they will typically only rank 1-2 IMGs high enough, but these IMGs may match elsewhere. If the program ranks more IMGs highly, they are at risk of matching more IMGs, which prestigious programs avoid like the plague, since IMGs are largely considered less desirable candidates (especially in the more pretentious places).

PS: You may want to look into Canada as well. They have a similar educational system and a more transparent (separate) IMG match - it is equally difficult, but somewhat more predictable. They are more familiar with UK schools (Ireland for Canada is like the Caribbean for the US) and they have some top-notch training programs.

 

[BurningLighter]

My impression is that many programs would favor the St George's candidate over an Oxford grad since they are familiar with their med school (considered "worse" than US schools but a known quantity = less risk). In general, PDs prioritize lower risk over higher reward. When IMGs get screened out, no "school" or "country" makes the cut. It's as simple as filtering applications by US grad vs US IMG vs FMG. If they have a reason, they will specifically hand-pick some additional applications to review (i.e if you rotated there or if someone they trust vouches for you).

Also, it is very hard to implement a strategy where your program reliably has 1-2 IMG spots, due to the way the match works (all applicants in the same pool). If a program wants to match 1-2 IMGs, they will typically only rank 1-2 IMGs high enough, but these IMGs may match elsewhere. If the program ranks more IMGs highly, they are at risk of matching more IMGs, which prestigious programs avoid like the plague, since IMGs are largely considered less desirable candidates (especially in the more pretentious places).

PS: You may want to look into Canada as well. They have a similar educational system and a more transparent (separate) IMG match - it is equally difficult, but somewhat more predictable. They are more familiar with UK schools (Ireland for Canada is like the Caribbean for the US) and they have some top-notch training programs.

Sorry I meant the London St. Georges, not the Caribbean one.

What other types of reasons do you mean? Would someone who has a large amount of high level publications and extremely unique EC's be one of those? Or what would make an IMG a 'desirable candidate'? I'm just curious of how "far" the Oxbridge etc. name would carry someone and what other schools are included in that.

Canada I've looked at but it mostly comes down to Canadian PR/citizenship which I don't have and the types of programs (I'm quite keen on US programs that encourage additional degrees during "research years" and other features I've not found in many Canadian ones).

 

[mikeGR]

Many IMG applicants have a ton of publications, advanced degrees, a PhD, completed residency in their country, etc etc. They still get screened out and only considered for a spot if their application is hand-picked out of the thousands of IMG applications (that are not reviewed in most places). The major thing that makes an IMG desirable, is for them to demonstrate that they are a low-risk candidate, which is harder than you'd think. You need someone they trust (typically a high-ranked US faculty) to go to bat for you. The Oxbridge name will not carry you far because 1) your application will not be reviewed (unless you get hand-picked), 2) Americans cannot compare Oxbridge to their known US schools (most probably know that Oxbridge > unknown UK school but it never comes to that).

If you are still pre-med, and are determined to do a surgical residency in the US and med school in the UK, try to cultivate connections with the US early. It will not be easy or cheap, but these connections will matter way more than anything else in your application. You can consider doing some dedicated research in the US as well.

PS: You can get Canadian PR by doing an advanced degree there (the US immigration system is actually more complicated and unfavorable, past the J-1 training visa), and many academic Canadian programs (i.e Toronto) offer lots of similar opportunities to the US (including research years/advanced degrees, mini-fellowships, industry connections, etc).

 

[WinslowPringle]

I’d hazard a guess that most PDs (unless they have personal ties themselves) are unfamiliar with the ranking or prestige of UK medical schools, particularly outside of Oxford/Cambridge. Someone from the UK will still be screened as a non-US MD/DO. Things that help are the same as for all IMGs - high step scores, personal ties with attendings/PDs/programs in the US and USCE, and impressive/high impact factor research.

 

[Medstart108]

I'd disagree with most posters here by saying that at top academic centers, they DO know UK schools. Not terribly well, but if you are talking Penn, MGH, Columbia type centers, these academic centers will always reserve a spot or so (that they will not fill with an international most years) for people they think are exceptional internationals. Look through your topical top academic resident pool and you'll occasionally find someone.

However, these people didn't get there because they went to Oxbridge, Imperial or Edinburgh, its usually because they are highly accomplished, great step scores, and they networked in highly specialized fields or have worked with well known mentors who have connections across the pond. Often they did a MBBS/PhD or they just went above and beyond during medical school in some way. Or, they did their medical school a FY year or two and then worked as a research fellow in the US where they impressed with their work ethic, wrote their steps and managed to land in a residency spot using those research mentors connections.

What everyone else is right about is, if you just want to match and you are applying broadly to various US programs, your average US PD will not know any medical school in the UK beyond maybe Oxford, Cambridge and recognizing the word London.

 

[ed*26]

The short answer is whichever school has the most alumna who are employed attending physicians in the US. What you need is connections, not necessarily name recognition, and if one school has some sort of agreement or pathway which allows their graduates to get experience in the U.S. -- or even just a strong informal network of graduates who are highly motivated and can give good, specific advice on how to succeed -- then that's the way to go.

You're probably right that, all other things being equal, a prestigious university will benefit you. But practically we'd need more context about which kind of UK students aspire to practice in the US. Is it something considered highly desirable by most students, or do the top UK grads land great jobs at home and not bother with slogging through the US-IMG process? Which schools accept the most international students?

 

[Browns99]

My impression is that many programs would favor the St George's candidate over an Oxford grad since they are familiar with their med school (considered "worse" than US schools but a known quantity = less risk). In general, PDs prioritize lower risk over higher reward. When IMGs get screened out, no "school" or "country" makes the cut. It's as simple as filtering applications by US grad vs US IMG vs FMG. If they have a reason, they will specifically hand-pick some additional applications to review (i.e if you rotated there or if someone they trust vouches for you).

Also, it is very hard to implement a strategy where your program reliably has 1-2 IMG spots, due to the way the match works (all applicants in the same pool). If a program wants to match 1-2 IMGs, they will typically only rank 1-2 IMGs high enough, but these IMGs may match elsewhere. If the program ranks more IMGs highly, they are at risk of matching more IMGs, which prestigious programs avoid like the plague, since IMGs are largely considered less desirable candidates (especially in the more pretentious places).

PS: You may want to look into Canada as well. They have a similar educational system and a more transparent (separate) IMG match - it is equally difficult, but somewhat more predictable. They are more familiar with UK schools (Ireland for Canada is like the Caribbean for the US) and they have some top-notch training programs.

Where did you get that "many programs" would favor a St. George's candidate over an Oxford grad for neurosurgery/GS? The Caribbean schools are not favored over any school to be honest.