For medical students in the class of 2021 interested in RadOnc - away rotations and career choices

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elementaryschooleconomics

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(As a general disclaimer, this post is not meant for those medical students who have their hearts set on this field. This is only for people on the fence - those who could be happy in other specialties.)

(Also, going back to the pre-COVID days where RadOnc economics was one of the biggest concerns makes me nostalgic.)

In trying to keep up with all the far-reaching effects of the COVID pandemic, I have been reading a lot of concern from current third-year medical students who have been quarantined and therefore pulled off clinical rotations. It seems many institutions have put a hold on away rotations, and people are understandably very concerned about the effect this will have on residency applications. This seems especially salient in a field like Radiation Oncology, where away rotations were the main mechanism by which recommendation letters and networking was achieved - historically crucial to the Match (back when we were competitive).

We have now had two (three?) years of people realizing the declining job outlook secondary to oversupply, and worsening performance in the Match as a result. While this year was definitely a struggle, there was still a decent handful of ultra-competitive folks. There will ALWAYS be people who have their heart set on RadOnc and they might have an amazing CV, just as (I assume) there are always some very competitive people interested in Pathology and Nuclear Medicine.

However, there’s been speculation that some of this year’s all-stars were still pursuing Radiation Oncology through a sort of “sunk cost fallacy”. I feel like the field has been struggling for long enough now that we’ve cut back on the number of “M1 Gunners” who started doing RadOnc research the second they entered medical school and believe they MUST continue on with this career path.

However, I implore you, fence-sitting medical students who have been crafting a RadOnc-oriented ERAS application: use this quarantine and lack of away rotations to give yourself permission to pursue other fields. Now is the time to make this decision, and no PD will think twice about the fact that you had some RadOnc experience pre-COVID and decided to pursue Heme/Onc or something else instead.

This post is partially born out of my own reality as I am ramping up to enter the job search as a senior resident. Many universities (and state governments) have instituted hiring freezes that will last for the next 3-15 months (some universities have decided to freeze hiring until the end of the 2020-2021 academic year (!!)). It was always going to be rough given that 1) RadOnc has been a tough job market forever and 2) the well-documented oversupply of residents combined with APM and general supervision. However, me and my class are also looking at 1) massive hiring freezes at academic medical centers, 2) large losses of revenues for academic and private practices based on lost RVUs with canceled elective procedures, and 3) folks potentially delaying retirement for a few years after their 401ks took a bath. This obviously doesn’t affect just Radiation Oncology - I’ve heard about offers being rescinded for this year’s graduating residents/fellows in other specialties (I don’t personally know of that in RadOnc though...yet). While cancer is not an elective procedure and there will always be a need for Radiation Oncologists regardless of global events, this is going to be a tremendous kick in the teeth for my class and the classes which follow it - for who knows how long.

Anyway, my thesis: fence sitters, avoid sunk costs. Kids who LOVE Radiation Oncology - see you at ASTRO!

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Any word from your institution about aways? We got told our department isn't taking aways for the foreseeable future in case they are cancelled nationwide and we need room for home students.
 
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Any word from your institution about aways? We got told our department isn't taking aways for the foreseeable future in case they are cancelled nationwide and we need room for home students.

We're closed for aways at least through June with the wording in that announcement strongly indicating this would likely be extended. Our home students are off until sometime in May - again, with the wording indicating the date would be extended.
 
Rather than beating a dead horse I wanted to point out some resources for medical students to get a feel for how the market is. I would still choose rad onc again... but then again I'm a WASP that hates the city.

These are the two job sites I've used in my search to see what's posted:



For s--ts and giggles.... lets check out heme/onc:


Need an even more specific area? For heme/onc you need to be boarded in medicine as well:


But then again... every one knows that the best jobs in radiation oncology are never posted! So as long as you network you should be just fine....
 
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(As a general disclaimer, this post is not meant for those medical students who have their hearts set on this field. This is only for people on the fence - those who could be happy in other specialties.)

(Also, going back to the pre-COVID days where RadOnc economics was one of the biggest concerns makes me nostalgic.)

In trying to keep up with all the far-reaching effects of the COVID pandemic, I have been reading a lot of concern from current third-year medical students who have been quarantined and therefore pulled off clinical rotations. It seems many institutions have put a hold on away rotations, and people are understandably very concerned about the effect this will have on residency applications. This seems especially salient in a field like Radiation Oncology, where away rotations were the main mechanism by which recommendation letters and networking was achieved - historically crucial to the Match (back when we were competitive).

We have now had two (three?) years of people realizing the declining job outlook secondary to oversupply, and worsening performance in the Match as a result. While this year was definitely a struggle, there was still a decent handful of ultra-competitive folks. There will ALWAYS be people who have their heart set on RadOnc and they might have an amazing CV, just as (I assume) there are always some very competitive people interested in Pathology and Nuclear Medicine.

However, there’s been speculation that some of this year’s all-stars were still pursuing Radiation Oncology through a sort of “sunk cost fallacy”. I feel like the field has been struggling for long enough now that we’ve cut back on the number of “M1 Gunners” who started doing RadOnc research the second they entered medical school and believe they MUST continue on with this career path.

However, I implore you, fence-sitting medical students who have been crafting a RadOnc-oriented ERAS application: use this quarantine and lack of away rotations to give yourself permission to pursue other fields. Now is the time to make this decision, and no PD will think twice about the fact that you had some RadOnc experience pre-COVID and decided to pursue Heme/Onc or something else instead.

This post is partially born out of my own reality as I am ramping up to enter the job search as a senior resident. Many universities (and state governments) have instituted hiring freezes that will last for the next 3-15 months (some universities have decided to freeze hiring until the end of the 2020-2021 academic year (!!)). It was always going to be rough given that 1) RadOnc has been a tough job market forever and 2) the well-documented oversupply of residents combined with APM and general supervision. However, me and my class are also looking at 1) massive hiring freezes at academic medical centers, 2) large losses of revenues for academic and private practices based on lost RVUs with canceled elective procedures, and 3) folks potentially delaying retirement for a few years after their 401ks took a bath. This obviously doesn’t affect just Radiation Oncology - I’ve heard about offers being rescinded for this year’s graduating residents/fellows in other specialties (I don’t personally know of that in RadOnc though...yet). While cancer is not an elective procedure and there will always be a need for Radiation Oncologists regardless of global events, this is going to be a tremendous kick in the teeth for my class and the classes which follow it - for who knows how long.

Anyway, my thesis: fence sitters, avoid sunk costs. Kids who LOVE Radiation Oncology - see you at ASTRO!
Behind the Tucson Greyhound station

2021 class is gonna be a very bad year, maybe not the worst year if downward trajectory continues, but a very bad year nonetheless. Is it the breadline year? maybe the closest so far to it. We’ll see what happens as Trump says. The thing ive noticed is even my colleagues who previously disagreed with me things were that bad are now universally agreeing that 2021 will be a very bad year for that class. For the reasons you mentioned, i would really strongly consider what this poster is saying. He is right!!!
 
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Rather than beating a dead horse I wanted to point out some resources for medical students to get a feel for how the market is. I would still choose rad onc again... but then again I'm a WASP that hates the city.

These are the two job sites I've used in my search to see what's posted:



For s--ts and giggles.... lets check out heme/onc:


Need an even more specific area? For heme/onc you need to be boarded in medicine as well:


But then again... every one knows that the best jobs in radiation oncology are never posted! So as long as you network you should be just fine....

i hate reading and reading about this hidden amazing fountain of jobs that you’ll have access to if you just network enough, brown nose enough,etc. it really is a commonly repeated line here and social media by virtue signallers. There are no fields where people are this worried about getting a job that are worth going into at the moment.
 
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i hate reading and reading about this hidden amazing fountain of jobs that you’ll have access to if you just network enough, brown nose enough,etc. it really is a commonly repeated line here and social media by virtue signallers. There are no fields where people are this worried about getting a job that are worth going into at the moment.
Nuc med and path. But those have been known for much longer
 
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I decided to take a look at the "job" board on ASTRO. I think nothing can surprise me anymore, but then there's this:

MATHER PROTON THERAPY and ADVANCED RADIATION ONCOLOGY FELLOWSHIP PROGRAM


Inova Schar Cancer Institute




The Inova Center for Advanced Radiation Oncology and Proton Therapy at the Inova Schar Cancer Institute is seeking applications for its newly created Mather Proton Therapy Fellowship Program.

The Inova Center for Advanced Radiation Oncology and Proton Therapy offers:

  • The most advanced radiation equipment in the Washington, DC region
  • Experience and clinical knowledge from a team of specialists
  • Interaction with a patient’s entire cancer care team – surgeons, medical oncologists, nurses, genetic counselors – to provide the best, and most personalized, treatment plan

Our renowned specialists use the latest techniques and technology to ensure the highest level of care is provided to patients.

Fellowship Program:

This 1-year non-ACGME accredited fellowship program is designed to provide a rigorous opportunity to develop a thorough understanding in the technical application of proton therapy delivery, clinical management of proton therapy patients, and the radiation biology and physics of proton therapy. The fellow will have a novel opportunity to develop a skill set that many current trainees may not have access to in residency. Based out of the Inova Schar Cancer Center in Falls Church, Virginia, the fellow will be readily incorporated into the clinical team to provide high quality cancer therapy using novel technology and therapies in a setting where multidisciplinary management fosters excellence in patient care, tailored to each patient’s needs.

Scope of Training:

The scope of training is tailored to provide a rich diversity of cases from which patients will be triaged for proton therapy based on consensus guidelines. As a fellow, you will spend most of your time at the Inova Schar Cancer Institute where you will assist in the consultation, on-treatment management, and follow-up of patients treated with proton therapy; and attend multidisciplinary clinics, tumor boards and didactic sessions. The primary focus of this fellowship is clinical, with a required clinical research project.



Applicant Eligibility:

Applicants must have successfully completed an accredited radiation oncology residency program and be eligible for licensure in the state of Virginia. ABR certification or ABR board eligibility in Radiation Oncology or an equivalent board is required. The Inova Schar Cancer Institute is an equal opportunity, affirmative action employer. Women, minorities and people with disabilities are encouraged to apply.
 
I especially like the part where they say they have a "required clinical research project"

What are they going to do if you don't do it? Not "graduate" you from their non-university non-accredited "fellowship"?
 
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My favorite things about these jokers is that their proton center just opened.

Reminds me of that Simpsons episode where Marge wants to teach and learn piano, just staying one lesson ahead of the kids learning.
 
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Some very poor bastard will take that Inova ”fellowship”or the Mehta Miami proton “fellowship”. There is always someone willing to do it
 
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Some foreign rad onc who wants to get their foot in the door or live in Miami/DC for a year may eventually pop up, that’s why they keep posting, because no one has taken it yet

I feel bad for these saps, they’ve posted the same job for the last year, no one wants to live in rural indiana. KHE?


Last jobs to fill are rural jobs that pay a SoCal salary and treat you like the Irvine facility. (I know nothing about this specific job) Some like Paul Harari believe that because the worst are the last to fill this somehow indicates a geographic maldistribution of radonc.
 
Last jobs to fill are rural jobs that pay a SoCal salary and treat you like the Irvine facility. (I know nothing about this specific job) Some like Paul Harari believe that because the worst are the last to fill this somehow indicates a geographic maldistribution of radonc.

Until Harari gets what he wants, there will be a maldistribution.
 
Rather than beating a dead horse I wanted to point out some resources for medical students to get a feel for how the market is. I would still choose rad onc again... but then again I'm a WASP that hates the city.

These are the two job sites I've used in my search to see what's posted:



For s--ts and giggles.... lets check out heme/onc:


Need an even more specific area? For heme/onc you need to be boarded in medicine as well:


But then again... every one knows that the best jobs in radiation oncology are never posted! So as long as you network you should be just fine....


I agree with the original poster in assessing one's options and making sure they different options available. But I don't think looking at heme/onc jobs now for med students is useful exercise since their lag time is so protracted. The decision to go into heme/onc mostly happens in residency. If heme/onc positions are desirable now, then certainly the number of fellowship applications will increase in the immediate future. However, trying to tell med students what specialty to pick for a job opening 6 years from now I think is not going to be helpful
 
I agree with the original poster in assessing one's options and making sure they different options available. But I don't think looking at heme/onc jobs now for med students is useful exercise since their lag time is so protracted. The decision to go into heme/onc mostly happens in residency. If heme/onc positions are desirable now, then certainly the number of fellowship applications will increase in the immediate future. However, trying to tell med students what specialty to pick for a job opening 6 years from now I think is not going to be helpful

Agreed. It was more as a comparison regarding the geographic flexibility of another specialty compared to ours. They can plug in any other specialty they like to see for themselves. No med student should pick heme/onc if they don't want to do it.
 
I agree with the original poster in assessing one's options and making sure they different options available. But I don't think looking at heme/onc jobs now for med students is useful exercise since their lag time is so protracted. The decision to go into heme/onc mostly happens in residency. If heme/onc positions are desirable now, then certainly the number of fellowship applications will increase in the immediate future. However, trying to tell med students what specialty to pick for a job opening 6 years from now I think is not going to be helpful

In extremes, it is helpful. I know with great certainty that most medstudents today who choose xrt will be in a world of hurt in 6 years. Let’s keep things in perspective, What we are seeing in xrt in terms of geographic restrictions is unique. Unemployment, failure to find a job in the specialty, something I foresee in this field, just doesn’t happen in vast majority of specialties.

Lets get a bit Bayesian- Was there ever a time in medonc history where they faced extreme geographic restrictions? You are not going to be able to reason your way around the severe harm that occurred from doubling resident numbers. I also caution against going tot North Korea here- all specialties are starving and have these problems
 
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I decided to take a look at the "job" board on ASTRO. I think nothing can surprise me anymore, but then there's this:

MATHER PROTON THERAPY and ADVANCED RADIATION ONCOLOGY FELLOWSHIP PROGRAM


Inova Schar Cancer Institute




The Inova Center for Advanced Radiation Oncology and Proton Therapy at the Inova Schar Cancer Institute is seeking applications for its newly created Mather Proton Therapy Fellowship Program.

The Inova Center for Advanced Radiation Oncology and Proton Therapy offers:

  • The most advanced radiation equipment in the Washington, DC region
  • Experience and clinical knowledge from a team of specialists
  • Interaction with a patient’s entire cancer care team – surgeons, medical oncologists, nurses, genetic counselors – to provide the best, and most personalized, treatment plan

Our renowned specialists use the latest techniques and technology to ensure the highest level of care is provided to patients.

Fellowship Program:

This 1-year non-ACGME accredited fellowship program is designed to provide a rigorous opportunity to develop a thorough understanding in the technical application of proton therapy delivery, clinical management of proton therapy patients, and the radiation biology and physics of proton therapy. The fellow will have a novel opportunity to develop a skill set that many current trainees may not have access to in residency. Based out of the Inova Schar Cancer Center in Falls Church, Virginia, the fellow will be readily incorporated into the clinical team to provide high quality cancer therapy using novel technology and therapies in a setting where multidisciplinary management fosters excellence in patient care, tailored to each patient’s needs.

Scope of Training:

The scope of training is tailored to provide a rich diversity of cases from which patients will be triaged for proton therapy based on consensus guidelines. As a fellow, you will spend most of your time at the Inova Schar Cancer Institute where you will assist in the consultation, on-treatment management, and follow-up of patients treated with proton therapy; and attend multidisciplinary clinics, tumor boards and didactic sessions. The primary focus of this fellowship is clinical, with a required clinical research project.


Applicant Eligibility:

Applicants must have successfully completed an accredited radiation oncology residency program and be eligible for licensure in the state of Virginia. ABR certification or ABR board eligibility in Radiation Oncology or an equivalent board is required. The Inova Schar Cancer Institute is an equal opportunity, affirmative action employer. Women, minorities and people with disabilities are encouraged to apply.

Some foreign rad onc who wants to get their foot in the door or live in Miami/DC for a year may eventually pop up, that’s why they keep posting, because no one has taken it yet

I feel bad for these saps, they’ve posted the same job for the last year, no one wants to live in rural indiana. KHE?



Inova Schar is actually an anagram for "anchor visa." :)
 
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Depending on the country, a year of rad onc here in the US can be pretty nice, Money wise.

That reminds me - Little known fact, in the mid 80s, Pablo Escobar actually almost invested in radiation oncology facilities
 
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Last jobs to fill are rural jobs that pay a SoCal salary and treat you like the Irvine facility. (I know nothing about this specific job) Some like Paul Harari believe that because the worst are the last to fill this somehow indicates a geographic maldistribution of radonc.

If you look at the description, it’s a very busy practice (15 SBRT a week?) and it says it’s a setup where you and the other two docs split the pot, so this isn’t a money issue, it’s a rural issue.

KHE or his ilk will go, they just gotta find one
 
Some foreign rad onc who wants to get their foot in the door or live in Miami/DC for a year may eventually pop up, that’s why they keep posting, because no one has taken it yet

I feel bad for these saps, they’ve posted the same job for the last year, no one wants to live in rural indiana. KHE?



I applied to this job during my initial shotgun approach and never heard anything back. No confirmation, no phone call, nothing. Maybe they thought I wasn't serious about it (which I wasn't) but it'd be better than being unemployed. Tough to have sympathy for a place like this that doesn't take the time and effort to at least reach out to interested applicants.
 
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After following the ASTRO Career Center emails for about 5 years I don't recall NYU Rad Onc ever posting looking for physicians but they did see fit to post this on the ASTRO website a few days ago. Does this type of non sense happen any other specialties? This almost reads like something out of The Onion.


ASTRO has a long, long list of non rad onc, non oncology, hell sometimes not even healthcare related jobs. They take the money from people wanting to post and it clutters the job board.

It used to be they didn't even 'prioritize' rad onc jobs at the top. They have at least done that now so it's not completely useless.

At 25 results per page, only the first 1.5 pages have rad onc jobs listed. This includes fellowships, physicists, and a couple med-onc and radiation therapist positions that seem to have snuck in there.

Guess how many pages there are to the jobs board? 40. That means 38.5 x 25 = ~960 jobs on that board that are not rad onc related. That's all free money for ASTRO, so they have no incentive not to allow people to post all sorts of non-sense on their jobs board.
 
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After following the ASTRO Career Center emails for about 5 years I don't recall NYU Rad Onc ever posting looking for physicians but they did see fit to post this on the ASTRO website a few days ago. Does this type of non sense happen any other specialties? This almost reads like something out of The Onion.


Yeah I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist but it certainly feels like ASTRO is allowing all these "miscellaneous" job posting to artificially boost the numbers.

Here's the raw count, 979 jobs:

1586806614680.png


If you organize by "physician/surgeon", you're down to 224 jobs:

1586806674176.png


Which include things like Heme/Onc and the Mather fellowship:

1586806743011.png


I agree with @evilbooyaa's math.
 
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The top job listed on ASTRO currently is to work for EvilCore.

ASTRO deserves any and all derision you can muster for posting that.
 
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I applied to this job during my initial shotgun approach and never heard anything back. No confirmation, no phone call, nothing. Maybe they thought I wasn't serious about it (which I wasn't) but it'd be better than being unemployed. Tough to have sympathy for a place like this that doesn't take the time and effort to at least reach out to interested applicants.

I don't understand this either. When a job is posted by a third-part agency, every single job I've applied to in a crappy location that has been posted forever goes unanswered. When the job is posted by an in-house recruiter, the responses are better, but not great. I don't get what's going on here. I suspect they are hunting for applicants who need visas they can pay something absurdly low.

The $500k job in Sonora, CA is STILL posted and constantly being spammed. How in the world have they not found someone competent to take this yet???!! It's been nearly a year I think.
 
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NYU is a tough place to get in. I’ve been in touch with their Chairlerson for years with no luck. However, this job posting is just a disgrace.


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is class of 2024 far out enough that it might be worth shadowing and doing research to see if interested in the field? i have no idea what I want to pursue yet but is it worth looking into rad onc or is it still going to be that bad by the time I would apply?
 
is class of 2024 far out enough that it might be worth shadowing and doing research to see if interested in the field? i have no idea what I want to pursue yet but is it worth looking into rad onc or is it still going to be that bad by the time I would apply?

So you would be RadOnc Residency Class of 2029?

1) No one can give you an accurate answer.
2) Unless a game-changing technology arrives (similar to IMRT in the early 2000s) and/or resident numbers are drastically reduced, I imagine RadOnc will enjoy a depressed market for at least the next decade.
3) That being said, there is ABSOLUTELY NO HARM in at least feeling the field out. You might be one of those folks I'm talking about in the original post - perhaps you'll love this field more than life itself and this is all you can imagine doing. If so, feel free to jump aboard the Turd Bus with the rest of us!
 
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is class of 2024 far out enough that it might be worth shadowing and doing research to see if interested in the field? i have no idea what I want to pursue yet but is it worth looking into rad onc or is it still going to be that bad by the time I would apply?

Go into either Medical Oncology, if a surgical subspecialty if so inclined (HN surgery, Uro, SurgOnc, Neurosurg, etc). Better jobs, better geographic flexibility, better compensation, better security, better academic opportunities (if that's your interest).
 
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Go into either Medical Oncology, if a surgical subspecialty if so inclined (HN surgery, Uro, SurgOnc, Neurosurg, etc). Better jobs, better geographic flexibility, better compensation, better security, better academic opportunities (if that's your interest).
Thanks for this. I know I'm interested in treating cancer. Right now Urology and Heme/Onc are what I would say I am most looking forward to exploring but I had heard that Rad Onc was incredibly fulfilling. The job market has me thinking it may not be a smart career move but nonetheless I will explore all of them and see which one's bread and butter cases are more fulfilling for me. Thanks for the advice!
 
Thanks for this. I know I'm interested in treating cancer. Right now Urology and Heme/Onc are what I would say I am most looking forward to exploring but I had heard that Rad Onc was incredibly fulfilling. The job market has me thinking it may not be a smart career move but nonetheless I will explore all of them and see which one's bread and butter cases are more fulfilling for me. Thanks for the advice!
Urology by far has the best job market currently IMO
 
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Many dead, beaten horses 'round here but there are deeper problems than simply "job market" although what I'm about to mention may admittedly be variations on that theme. In no particular order: academics vs PP, money, locums, geographic || choice, utilization, autonomy, babysitting, primacy, board fiascoes, leadership...

Excellent summary with one additional problem: academics focused on reducing the role of radiation and on expanding satellite facilities rather than actually advancing the field
 
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I cannot stress enough. Stay AWAY from rad Onc if you’re a current student

Especially from virtual away rotations

 
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I cannot stress enough. Stay AWAY from rad Onc if you’re a current student

Especially from virtual away rotations


A "virtual away rotation" in any specialty seems about as fulfilling/helpful as a virtual tequila flight but what do I know
 
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I mean this one isn’t about academics. I agree it’s quite silly, but like Med students aren’t on rotations right now, or for the forseeable future, I wonder how it’s going to affect their ability to apply to stuf like rad onc, derm, Rads, etc etc that you normally don’t rotate on in cores. I’m sure other fields have other people that are also looking into brief ‘virtual’ rotations

I know someone in college whose investment banking internship has been turned virtual for the summer. Let that sink in. Getting paid like 20-30 thousand dollars for the summer to work virtually
 
Not all med schools have residencies in rad onc. Still useful to rotate through the home department, but it doesn’t really help get your foot in any doors (Not that it will matter) or give you the flavor of residency.
 
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Not all med schools have residencies in rad onc. Still useful to rotate through the home department, but it doesn’t really help get your foot in any doors (Not that it will matter) or give you the flavor of residency.
Well that’s where I was going. You really won’t have much trouble matching. I think the issue here is that some low level academics can’t bear not having an impressionable audience for a couple months?
 
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Well that’s where I was going. You really won’t have much trouble matching. I think the issue here is that some low level academics can’t bear not having an impressionable audience for a couple months?

Dude come on really?
 
I agree if you want to expose students what radiation oncology is, give some lectures

otherwise this is a perfect opportunity for basically the entire specialty to not participate in the match

of course that is wishful thinking but it really is a good time
 
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I mean I imagine this is certainly part of a virtual rotation for any specialty right now.

Weird flex

it’s not a weird flex

away rotations are not to introduce ppl to a speciality

they are for ppl committed and are coming for a LOR and possible interview at that programs
 
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