For experience should I become a medical assistant or a licensed professional nurse?

[newtoPA]

I have worked over a year as a certified nurse assistant while initially in nursing school. I am interested in doing clinical research. There are online programs that allow people to become certified as medical assistants (MAs), licensed professional nurses (LPNs), and registered nurses (RNs). Would it be a good idea to become a MA, or LPN to RN to enter into clinical research? Some of these programs are featured in California, Minnesota, Delaware, and Pennsylvania where state reciprocity is possible.

Most job descriptions in my area for clinical research have been tailored to RNs, and RTs. Most of my background is in nursing.

Input would help.

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[jl lin]

I am not trying to be all uppity, but LPN does NOT mean Licensed Professional Nurse. It means Licensed PRACTICAL nurse. RNs and LPNs are not tested on the same level. Registered Nurses are considered professional nurses w/ greater demands on licensure, b/c of the education and what is tested on their boards. I am not knocking LPNS. There is just a big difference, and in today's world, even highly experienced RNs from ADN or hospital programs are at a disadvantage if they do not have a Bachelor's of Science in Nursing. In short, a practical nurse is not a professional nurse. It's generally a one year program and the boards cover less than half of what would be expected on NCLEX for graduates of professional nursing programs-those that are NCLEX eligible, seeking RN. Now, having said that, there are LPNs that have worked for such a long time, they can be more highly functioning and knowledgeable, depending upon Nurse Practice Acts of a particular state. But it's tough to see this anymore, b/c LPNs usage in the acute care setting has been limited, and many have been forced to work in long-term care. There is some changes w/ that in certain hospitals, probably for cost control.

MA is about 6 mo.s of education/training, and really doesn't have a sound foundation of knowledge. But using them in doctor's offices is even cheaper still, and so that's why they are thrown into the office mix. For LPN or RN, you will not be eligible to sit for either LPN boards or RN boards by doing an all online program. There are certain requirements involving clinical rotations, along with certain sciences and other things before you can be even eligible to sit for either of those exams for licensure. NLN accreditation is required, and this certainly involves entrance and success in an NLN accredited program. There are accelerated programs for people that have say a BA or BS in something else and pretty much need certain sciences, social sciences, statistics and such, but they must require clinical rotations with didactic learning and grading as well. There is no such animal as becoming a licensed nurse w/o didactic + clinical rotations with evals/grades from both aspects.

And also, though unrelated, no credible program would ever allow for an ALL ONLINE path to nurse practitioner anymore than a program would for CRNA.

Regardless of what anyone thinks of these programs and their problems butting up against medicine, which are legitimate, you must adhere to certain standards in education and clinical rotation in order to be board eligible.

I know very little about non-nursing midwifery programs, but I cannot recommend them b/c of the lack of foundational and other essential knowledge one would receive in a reputable Nurse-Midwifery program--especially education in when it's getting in over your head and you need to refer a client to a BC OBGYN, rather than taking on unnecessary risks to the patients. There are limits and scopes of practice, and a wise professional learns what her/his are in their particular field. Most reputable Nurse-Midwives I know, for example, wouldn't take on a pt w/ previous maternal losses to do VBAC in the home. Heck, some OBGYNs are not thrilled with VBACs, but at least they have direct OR/DR backup and anesthesia.

Your best opportunity for research, from nursing is in obtaining a BSN or Bachelors in a science, depending upon the kind of research, and then go for a Masters in Clinical Trials/Research or find a certificate program. Look for the necessary accreditation.

The RN-BSN to MSN programs for clinical trials can be done mostly online provided you have already met the requirements to sit before state board exam--requiring didactic and clinical from an accredited program--and even better if after licensure, you have worked clinically as a RN for some time. But they will require that you graduated w/ a 3.0 or > from .Natonal League of Nursing (NLN/ACEN) or the American Association Colleges of Nursing (AACN/CCNE) program and have met other pre-requisites.

As for other undergrad science programs and looking for bench work, go to http://www.naacls.org

Also:http://www.studentdoctor.net/2011/04/how-to-get-into-research/?reload=1&r=1447325476849

Also, you do not have a" background in nursing" if you have not worked as a licensed nurse in some capacity over time. Some exposure through NA or such is fine, but it is not a background in nursing. But I do wish you well and hope you find what suits you best. Do some more research, and again, good luck.

 

[Promethean]

Don't go to a trade school to become an MA. I have a friend who spent $30k on one of those "We help you get into the health professions!" schools to get a certificate to be an MA. And she couldn't get a job doing it when she was done. A lot of those schools are for profit and the quality of education is not remotely worth the price. Medical assistants aren't required to be certified or licensed (in any jurisdiction of which I am aware,) and it can be taught as on-the-job training if you have the right contacts. You don't need to go to school for a year to learn to do the very limited role of the MA.

My nursing school tuition (to become an RN) cost $22k, and I didn't have to pay any of it myself because an employer covered it. If I'd gone through the local community college, it would have been more like $8k for the whole 2 years. You will have a lot more luck getting to work in a clinical research setting as an RN. My colleague above gives great advice. Bachelors trained nurses are going to have the best luck getting research jobs, but one of my classmates who came out of our 2 year RN program went right into clinical research. She went on to get her BSN through one of the many RN-BSN online programs while working in the field she was most interested in. So, it can be done.

 

[newtoPA]

@jl lin Thanks for the correction. It is licensed practical nurse or licensed vocational nurse. My issue is that a RN associates is required for most hospital work. This includes research.

BSN is for people who want to pursue advanced degrees like NP or DNP. Some may argue no, but that change has not come yet with the hospitals. Most people say that it is better to pursue an RN associates if there is no desire to go further.

Most people who have LPN or RN degrees go through bridge programs that allow them to gain work experience. Nursing is more kinesthetic learning. Most of didactic is online. Clinical work is in assigned hospitals and in satellite campuses. This is for an "online" program.

Nursing is a different beast than medicine. I need to keep this in mind when writing on this board. I will not get the advice I need to improve my chances after nursing school.

@Promethean My RN-BSN dual degree was less $22,000. MA can be done in 6 months. Clinicals have been replaced with externship. This is to make the total cost of programs cheaper. This can be under $9000 to do an associates. A majority of MAs I have met today have taken this route.

The advice is not helping me break into clinical research.

 

[Cawolf]

The advice is not helping me break into clinical research.

The answer is neither. Plenty of people go into clinical research without any tech certificates.

 

[jl lin]

@jl lin Thanks for the correction. It is licensed practical nurse or licensed vocational nurse. My issue is that a RN associates is required for most hospital work. This includes research.

BSN is for people who want to pursue advanced degrees like NP or DNP. Some may argue no, but that change has not come yet with the hospitals. Most people say that it is better to pursue an RN associates if there is no desire to go further.

Most people who have LPN or RN degrees go through bridge programs that allow them to gain work experience. Nursing is more kinesthetic learning. Most of didactic is online. Clinical work is in assigned hospitals and in satellite campuses. This is for an "online" program.

Nursing is a different beast than medicine. I need to keep this in mind when writing on this board. I will not get the advice I need to improve my chances after nursing school.

@Promethean My RN-BSN dual degree was less $22,000. MA can be done in 6 months. Clinicals have been replaced with externship. This is to make the total cost of programs cheaper. This can be under $9000 to do an associates. A majority of MAs I have met today have taken this route.

The advice is not helping me break into clinical research.

In many areas it is becoming increasingly difficult to land positions as RNs w/o also having the BSN. Like it or not, it's the way it rolls. Some of it's a Magnet thing. Research as an RN is even harder w/o the bachelor's and some education in clinical trials/research.

No, not at least in my neck of the wood. You need to have a Bachelor's and then at least a clinical trials/research certificate and/or >year experience in this particular area--usually at least 3 when you go through the specific job hunt at academic medical centers. It would be very rare for an RN ASN to get into academic research in one of these centers, unless s/he knew someone and they'd go to bat for you. Bachelor's is pretty much the baseline, particularly because the requirements for stats, biostats, and research based nursing courses you are required to take in a good BSN program. Many times the preference is for RN, MSN w/ clinical trials/research + experience.

Also will disagree that it's more kinesthetic compared with didactic. Totally untrue. It's at least a 50/50 along with critical thinking. I am a critical care RN of at least 20 years. There is a ton of didactic that was required just in the fundamental stages of working in these specialized ICU areas. Couldn't even sit for CCRN until I hit so many hours and made sure I knew my stuff for the exam, which is a lot different from the NCLEX, in that there is a good deal of medical science on the exam. I will not argue with others on this point. I sat for the exam, and I know what was required in terms of hemodynamics, EKG, pulmonary, all systems as they pertain to critical care. I am not saying it's like medical board certification in critical care; but it was pretty involved, and if you didn't have a firm grasp of such things, you just wasted time and money, and then you have to go back to your job explaining why you didn't get a high enough score to obtain the certification. So you have to also know treatment modalities w/ a good understanding of pharmacological and other mechanisms, contraindications, complications, diagnostic stuff. No. Not totally medicine, but make no mistake. There is medical science on that exam--at least the one I took.

 

[jl lin]

The answer is neither. Plenty of people go into clinical research without any tech certificates.

When you search position databases at most academic medical centers, they require this as well as at least a bachelor's--at least when looking to hire RNs into the role. I'll leave the other bench R/A requirements to the sites I mentioned and those with more experience in that.

Otherwise, for RNs, you have to know someone or be very lucky--again that's from research at academic centers (which are many) in my area.

 

[newtoPA]

I hold a bachelors degree.

I do not have license to administer meds for clinical research. So far only RNs, MAs, and RTs can. It is true that a bachelors degree is required.

I guess the people I knew who got into hospital clinical research had connections while having a RN associates only.

I will be coming from a very, very nontraditional route. I still need to take some time off to get my application together.

 

[jl lin]

Also, I would not go through any RN program, w/o supervised, direct clinical practicums. You have to combine the didactic with the clinical or it just doesn't work--so you are overlapping in your learning and understanding all the time.

 

[jl lin]

I hold a bachelors degree.

I do not have license to administer meds for clinical research. So far only RNs, MAs, and RTs can.

So break into RA and don't worry about that part of research. Or, go to a program that will give you valid, real time clinical with didactic learning, and not something that is purely online. This is insane for someone w/o true nursing experience. And it's risky to patients and your license. Some of these accelerated programs are garbage. Suck it up and go somewhere where you will get proper oversight with combining both clinical and didactic. Then go to a university medical center that has a solid critical care didactic program and solid 1:1 preceptorship that goes along with the didactic for no less than 3 to 6 months. Certainly places like I believe U of Penn will pay for extending the preceptorship that long or so.

 

[newtoPA]

Most nursing education had deviated from that over time. It is about the assessment, the care plan, the procedures, and the medication administration. Most nurses in my entire education do not say this or guide students in this direction.

The only people who understand this are nursing students who have been working 10 to 12 years as patient care technicians, and surgical technicians in hospitals. These people are in their 40s or 50s graduating from my RN-BSN dual program.

 

[jl lin]

Most nursing education had deviated from that over time. It is about the assessment, the care plan, the procedures, and the medication administration. Most nurses in my entire education do not say this or guide students in this direction.

The only people who understand this are nursing students who have been working 10 to 12 years as patient care technicians, and surgical technicians in hospitals. These people are in their 40s or 50s graduating from my RN-BSN dual program.

I am not clear on your point. You can't separate the process of assessment from both the didactic and the clinical. In fact you will be very poor at doing such or any kind of physical exam if you do. It's a process and the process involves both didactic and clinical and proper guidance and supervision. PC techs and surgical techs do not practice nursing either by way of the science or art of it, and it like medicine, is both.

Also, the true purpose of care plans is in the sound use of the nursing process, which, again requires the combined learning and understanding of the didactic along with the clinical. The two really can't and shouldn't be separated, especially by way of any long period of time.

 

[newtoPA]

RNs are not taught to do physical exams until they have at least 1 or 2 years of experience working after nursing school. Only NP, PA, and MD/DO. RNs are taught to collect data for physical exams. PCT and surg techs do some things under nursing such as catheters and some wet to dry wound dressing.

Care plans are arranged with nursing diagnosis, which is not the same as medical diagnosis.

 

[jl lin]

RNs are not taught to do physical exams until they have at least 1 or 2 years of experience working after nursing school. Only NP, PA, and MD/DO. RNs are taught to collect data for physical exams. PCT and surg techs do some things under nursing such as catheters and some wet to dry wound dressing.

Care plans are arranged with nursing diagnosis, which is not the same as medical diagnosis.

Completely false. I am beginning to wonder about the schools to which you are referring. It Hx/PE was a 9 credit course at my school, requiring many things. LOL I am having to keep myself from ROTFLMAO.

Furthermore, you don't understand Nursing Dxs. B/c nurses are not doctors, they cannot make medical diagnoses, unless NPs, etc. So in order to utilize the nursing process, nursing dxs were made to describe how things are presented in a functional manner. So indeed they could include a number of underlying pathologies, for example, re: say issues with Gas Exchange. What physicians or NPs use in treatment are carried out by nurses as well; it's about wording, but there is a scientific process to the nursing process, which fully requires assessment, diagnosis, plan, implementation, and evaluation. Until you have gone through the fundamentals, it's best to stop exhorting on things that you do not understand.

A nursing diagnosis is a clinical judgment based on a comprehensive nursing assessment. Of course it is required to know basic pathophysiology (but the more the better IMHO), current treatment modalities from surgery to medicine, epidemiology, complications of diseases and available treatments, and the diagnostic tools used that help lead to a medical diagnosis ARE ALL required knowledge taught in a good RN nursing program. My God, if they are not anymore, no wonder why I am seeing such nimrod RNs coming out of school. It's bad enough that they made the NCLEX P/F IMHO.

I don't have time to go through everything I learned in four years of nursing education plus specialization courses + 20 years of critical care nursing. I don't know about the programs to which you are referring, but I would be wary of them.
But if this is truly a newer trend, if I don't make it into medical school, I will have to try to remedy some of this absolute nonsense. Nothing you said is how it rolled in any schools and universities (nursing programs) I have attended.

Bottom line. You don't get to write in a diagnosis of CHF until after a physician or NP does (and w/ the proper ICD-9/10 code/s LOL). But you sure as hell better know pathophysiologies and various etiological factors for CHF, diagnostic studies done in evaluating it, all relevant medical treatments, their complications, the medications and their complications, their generic names, their normal dosages and check for proper calculation--especially in kids where it's units/kg, etc. You sure as HELL have to learn what it looks like. As a nurse if you don't know all this and more, you are putting the patients and your license in MAJOR risk. Remember something very important. A physician cannot be with all the patients all the time. That's why professional nurses must be well-educated to stand as sentries for these patients.

I am literally sitting here SMH. Wow.

 

[newtoPA]

Nope never was blessed with such a program. Could not relate.

I was just taught to prioritize my nursing diagnosis with my own assessment, which is different from the doctor's.

I was also taught just to learn safe medication administration.

Nurses are taught to only answer application based questions also. There is limited pathophysiology taught with this. Essentially RNs are taught to do function.

Most programs are condensed to one year or two years for a BSN today. Or they are BSN bridge programs requiring limited class contact. Like I said, I can not relate.

 

[newtoPA]

The replies for this post have not been helpful. It would be nice to find people who are in the same boat to work with.

 

[Cawolf]

Nope never was blessed with such a program. Could not relate.

I was just taught to prioritize my nursing diagnosis with my own assessment, which is different from the doctor's.

I was also taught just to learn safe medication administration.

Nurses are taught to only answer application based questions also. There is limited pathophysiology taught with this. Essentially RNs are taught to do function.

Most programs are condensed to one year or two years for a BSN today. Or they are BSN bridge programs requiring limited class contact. Like I said, I can not relate.

You also said you are a CNA looking to be an MA or LVN, so nothing makes any sense here.

 

[newtoPA]

I have a bachelors degree. I did not do well in basic med surg.

I would like more hands on work in clinical research under providers. Mostly basic assessment.

Now waiting for the harsh comments to pour in.

 

[jl lin]

I have a bachelors degree. I did not do well in basic med surg.

I would like more hands on work in clinical research under providers. Mostly basic assessment.

Now waiting for the harsh comments to pour in.

I am very sad that you are in a subpar nursing program, but if you are in an accelerated program--you already have a BA or BS in something else, and they condense and shove you through--that kind of program. Well, they suck, and I have never supported them, for some of the reasons you have indicated here. These programs are just about making money. They may even be in a number of good schools; but it's a lot garbage, and it's unfair to student, patients, and facilities. There is a problem with the flow of how the information is built with these add-on programs. It seems very much like catch as catch can, and doesn't really flow as other programs do.

What happened that you feel you did not do well in basic med-surg? This along with fundamentals are foundational. It's sad really.

Even if you program sucks, there is so much out there on fundamentals and M-S nursing that I could show you where you could learn and grow. Then you get into, as you said, a good extern program and then a good intern program--the good ones are often at bigger, teaching medical centers. If you have to find your own mentors, than that is what you have to do; although it's a shame you don't seem to be able to look to anyone (at least not many) professors/instructors in your own program. It's a damn shame. But they were happy to take your money? Right?

Honestly I feel really badly for you w/ regard to your nursing program. Please feel free to PM if you want. There are resources and again people that will be strong mentors, and depending on where you are, there may be some good intern programs. I really hate what is happening in nursing education.

Again, I will share that in my area, there are a number of university hospitals with strong preceptor/internship programs. There's a kiddie hospital in my area that takes strong students into their extern program in a particular unit, and many of those externs pass their boards and get into their preceptor programs in the particular unit where they did their externships. But as I also shared, in my area, I do not see many nurse-research positions for RN-ADNs--certainly not for someone fresh out of a nursing program w/o any clinical experience, much less research skills/experience. What I have consistently seen is baseline, bachelors in nursing, research/clinical trials certs, or grad degree.

Also, see if you can move into a university medical center intensive care unit. Once you get some experience and learning under your belt, you will be in a better position for and to find research positions.

Seriously, good luck to you. Again, feel free to pm me if you want.​

 

[jl lin]

You also said you are a CNA looking to be an MA or LVN, so nothing makes any sense here.

Yes, I also am confused, but I want to give the benefit of the doubt.

 

[newtoPA]

@jl lin These are pretty true words. I guess it is the nature of the beast for new nursing students. If I would have known, I would have thought things out differently. I do agree with you completely on this post. Most students I have known just want to get through the program and work. Even shelling out thousands of dollars on things they only use once or never use again. Most programs are turning into money making schemes. Even medicine. I just woke up to that.

 

[newtoPA]

As mentioned there are programs that cost less than $10,000. They are approved by the state board. I checked. They are legit. This goes for online LPN, RN, or MA. I check if the school is also probationary. The ones I have checked out so far are not.

 

[jl lin]

As mentioned there are programs that cost less than $10,000. They are approved by the state board. I checked. They are legit. This goes for online LPN, RN, or MA. I check if the school is also probationary. The ones I have checked out so far are not.

Talk with students, other professors, and find out about NLN, etc w/ such programs. I am so not a fan of these programs, at all.
And then I see people do them and get into NP programs or CRNA programs with little clinical experience, and it's no wonder nursing is getting trashed. It's no wonder some docs are OK with giving full independent practice to NPs, as at this rate, we will definitely see an increase in malpractice issues.
Such education is circling-the-bowl kind of education.