"Fighting for Life" movie

[TX_NFS]

Was browsing the Wikipedia entry for USUHS out of curiosity and came across a link to this documentary (http://www.fightingforlifethemovie.com/index.html).

Doesn't seem like this has been widely released yet (see 'Screenings' tab) and I'm not sure if it ever will be? Regardless, any thoughts or opinions or better yet, reviews?

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[paradude]

I saw the film last year and it is powerful. I'm not sure what the status of the film is post-production but it was clear from the director that he would like to have it widely distributed. You can't watch it as an American and not feel patriotic and proud and sad.

The film focuses on the training of medical students at USU in their first and second years of medical school. It also focuses on the roles of graduates of USU in theater at one or two of the medical centers in Iraq and the transport of patients to Landstuhl and eventually to Walter Reed and Navy in Bethesda.

You see some wounded soldiers in Iraq coming to grips with the reality of their new situation. In particular one young female enlisted soldier is followed from her wounding by IED in Iraq, which included the loss of a lower extremity to her recovery and PT at Walter Reed and eventual discharge.

Again, powerful and sobering stuff. Hope you get a chance to check out the film.

 

[MoosePilot]

Saw this in the theater today. Saw it in a smaller screening once previously. Would highly recommend it to anyone interested in military medicine. It's only playing in certain theaters and opening in new theaters based on performance, so seeing it will help it be seen more widely.

If you want to know if it's playing in your area, check out the website:

http://www.fightingforlifethemovie.com/
http://www.fightingforlifethemovie.com/screenings.html

 

[apoptosisisfun]

Ah bugger, I really hope this comes to Chicago.

 

[MoosePilot]

Ah bugger, I really hope this comes to Chicago.

Contact your local theater and urge them to pick it up. That might help. It's a documentary, so smaller theaters that play independent movies and documentaries are your best bet.

 

[Galo]

I'm sorry, but I just can't hold it any longer. Now, I would like to say that I have no problem with USHUS. But it is just a MEDICAL SCHOOL. It does not provide any specific training such a surgery, ortho, EM, etc, that is being practiced in Iraq. It looks like many of the lay articles label it as some special place where you're taught how to be a doctor in war. I can now honestly see when the people who are blindly optimistic, (dare I say cheerleaders) have a problem with lay media articles attacking milmed such as the Walter Reed thing. I guess truth lays somewhere else other than in extreme negativity, or blind positivity. I wonder where any of the profiled physicians actually did their training?

In all, I think this looks like a well meaning piece that will be undoubtedly seen as a recruitment tool for what I have described plainly here as a failed system from my experience. Also I have mentione many times that I do not think it will get better, and throwing more well meaning, but perhaps naive people into the situation will only continue to breed contempt from those who did not really understand what they were getting themselves into.

This is not intended as an insult to any one specific, so if you want to flame, do it with some professionalism, and facts to back up your insults.

 

[backrow]

Galo,

Did you even go look at the film info? Although it is touted as a "USUHS" film you will notice that it actually covers medical care in Iraq a bit more than focusing simply on being a recruiting video for the school.

I would also like to know what year you graduated from USUHS to make this statement:

It does not provide any specific training such a surgery, ortho, EM, etc, that is being practiced in Iraq.[/galo]

Don't worry I know you didn't go there. So riddle me this: What other medical school in the US has their students go to two field training exercises? What other medical school has military medicine courses? What other medical school teaches you how to do a 9-line evac? What other medical school has their students set up and run a marine BAS, army BAS, and Air Force EMEDS? and on and on

Now I will say that the field ex and the mil med classes will not teach you everything you need to know about combat medicine, but I would bet that it prepares you better than say Stanford or Harvard for the military aspect of combat medicine. You are correct that it doesn't teach you "surgery, ortho, EM"; however, it does something beyond "just a MEDICAL SCHOOL."

 

[MoosePilot]

I'm sorry, but I just can't hold it any longer. Now, I would like to say that I have no problem with USHUS. But it is just a MEDICAL SCHOOL. It does not provide any specific training such a surgery, ortho, EM, etc, that is being practiced in Iraq. It looks like many of the lay articles label it as some special place where you're taught how to be a doctor in war. I can now honestly see when the people who are blindly optimistic, (dare I say cheerleaders) have a problem with lay media articles attacking milmed such as the Walter Reed thing. I guess truth lays somewhere else other than in extreme negativity, or blind positivity. I wonder where any of the profiled physicians actually did their training?

In all, I think this looks like a well meaning piece that will be undoubtedly seen as a recruitment tool for what I have described plainly here as a failed system from my experience. Also I have mentione many times that I do not think it will get better, and throwing more well meaning, but perhaps naive people into the situation will only continue to breed contempt from those who did not really understand what they were getting themselves into.

This is not intended as an insult to any one specific, so if you want to flame, do it with some professionalism, and facts to back up your insults.

It's really a reflex with you, isn't it? I need facts to back up my reply, but you haven't even seen the movie and feel totally free to critique it? Go see the movie and then come back and give a blistering review. Until then, you don't know what you're talking about re: the movie.

About military medicine, I've been reading this board for a long time. I strongly considered this advice before going to USUHS. I'm an intelligent person who doesn't like unthinking authority. I resent stupid people telling what to do and the military is great at that. I was pretty sick of it when I finished my first long commitment as a pilot and I'm sure I'll be sick of it when I finish this one.

However, what I realized yesterday as I was watching the movie the second time was that *military medicine is all these guys have*. It's broken. I can see that. Civilian hospitals are probably more efficient and treat their providers better. The comparison is tough, though, because the two systems are totally different. In your new civilian hospital, what's the deployment rate? What's the turnover rate, i.e. does everybody move every three years? The differences don't justify the problems in mil med. Those problems need to be fixed and the system needs to be improved. Any system that generates enough discontent in its physicians to bring them back to a board like this years later probably needs a major overhaul.

But Mil med is what these patients get. In Iraq, there is no better alternative. You guys have good intentions and you're doing a service in making sure potential students are informed, but any idea you have that you're going to hurt mil med to the point is has to fix itself is probably quixotic. I've clearly committed myself for at least the next 12 years, so maybe I'm just justifying what I already have to do, but I'd rather spend my time doing my best within a broken system for a really great patient population than to just go to the negative.

USUHS doesn't teach surgery, but it's a fine medical school that nobody knows much about and the movie gives it some exposure. It doesn't claim that the school teaches surgery. Maybe you could watch it and then you'd know exactly what the movie claims.

 

[MoosePilot]

As far as Galo's actual points, no USUHS doesn't graduate residents anymore than any other medical school. The fact that the students complete residencies prior to performing surgery in Iraq does not invalidate the movie. They did elementary school, high school, and undergrad before coming to USUHS, too, but the movie failed to mention that... something to correct next time

 

[Galo]

You both are right. I did not watch the movie, nor claimed that I did. I was making an observation based on the reviews available on the site.
I did not comment on the care given in Iraq, or the physician they followed.

And what of ALL the deployed physicians, (surgeons, ortho, neuro, anesthesia), who did not go to USHUS??? Are they somehow less ready to be in Iraq, than those who went to USHUS?? It seems like at ushus they give you what would be the equivalent of teaching a general physical exam, its something that's developed at residency training (military or not), and then when you are in active duty, you do go specific training, (not that intensive), to be a deployed physician. The bulk of what a physician does in Iraq, is hopefully what he was trained to do, ie, surgery, ortho, anesthesia, etc, what I am saying, and what was my experience is that most of those are likely not ushus graduates. So? I still think that PART of the film is akin to a recruitment tool.

If you want to discuss the failures of mil med, that has been done ad nauseum, with much emotion, examples, fights, name calling, less than professional behavior, etc. It still gets reviewed here nearly every day. Also, Moosepilot, you're right, I may never make a difference in how many people choose not to learn enough about milmed before they sign up, but perhaps the one's who care to try and learn about their potential future will be able to make a much more informed decision. I know myself, others, (pro and con), have already turned away many, and the stories that emerge from milmed will hopefully continue to make it to this forum, good and bad, so people can continue to make informed decisions.

I think its a shame that the current predicament of milmed is all they have available. They deserve much better. Also much in the same way that I may be deluding myself that I am going to make much change, I could say the same for you. I hope that you can effect change in the immediate area, staff, and patients around you, but you will never change policy, much as you remember from your days as a pilot.

Anyways, I would like to see the movie, though from the reviews, the propaganda about ushus will not change.

 

[MoosePilot]

The movie was not made by the government. It was initially conceived by a wonderful woman whose son is a graduate. The alumni organization had a big hand in the genesis. So, in a sense, it is a movie that had a guaranteed positive slant. Does that make it propaganda? That's a bit cynical. It's not intended to be a recruiting tool, although it's already being seen as such by elements at the school. Our nickname for our school is "the best medical school nobody's ever heard of". This movie is to counter that to some extent.

It doesn't mean that other military docs aren't outstanding and totally necessary. About 75% of military docs are not USUHS grads. If Harvard makes a movie it doesn't mean that University of Oklahoma is being denigrated. Likewise, "Fighting for Life" is about a unique medical school with a unique mission, not about all the other great med schools that graduate physicians who enter the military.

It's a good movie, I really would recommend it.

 

[Croatalus_atrox]

The movie was not made by the government. It was initially conceived by a wonderful woman whose son is a graduate. The alumni organization had a big hand in the genesis. So, in a sense, it is a movie that had a guaranteed positive slant. Does that make it propaganda? That's a bit cynical. It's not intended to be a recruiting tool, although it's already being seen as such by elements at the school. Our nickname for our school is "the best medical school nobody's ever heard of". This movie is to counter that to some extent.

It doesn't mean that other military docs aren't outstanding and totally necessary. About 75% of military docs are not USUHS grads. If Harvard makes a movie it doesn't mean that University of Oklahoma is being denigrated. Likewise, "Fighting for Life" is about a unique medical school with a unique mission, not about all the other great med schools that graduate physicians who enter the military.

It's a good movie, I really would recommend it.

You know that the real reason you're so gung-ho about this film is because you and your wife are in it!

 

[MoosePilot]

You know that the real reason you're so gung-ho about this film is because you and your wife are in it!

Yeah, but they took the stupidest 30 seconds of what I said to them. Not untrue, but definitely not the best snippet

I'm obviously biased. Any positive movie about my school would cause me to be and the direct connection means it's even more obvious, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't see it!

 

[a1qwerty55]

I'm sorry, but I just can't hold it any longer. Now, I would like to say that I have no problem with USHUS. But it is just a MEDICAL SCHOOL.

As one who has seen the movie and felt it was well done, balanced, I will again have to counter Galo's reflexive negative post.

Never one to fail to give an opinion where he has no first hand knowledge Galo strikes again.

So are West Point or Annapolis just colleges? Is there nothing unique about the students who choose to go there, or the curriculum?

Perhaps if the applicants have a different motivation, and life's experiences, and the curriculum is different and the entire ethos and perspective of the institution is different, you might get a different,, or perhaps better graduate?

I recommend the movie for what it is, a documentary, obviously positive towards USUHS but not inappropriately so. It is a sobering look at casualty care. It does a good job of pointing out that there have been moves to close the school at the Congressional level, and had that occured, it is unlikely that mil med would have the cadre of career docs currently available for this war effort.

 

[Galo]

As one who has seen the movie and felt it was well done, balanced, I will again have to counter Galo's reflexive negative post.

Never one to fail to give an opinion where he has no first hand knowledge Galo strikes again.

So are West Point or Annapolis just colleges? Is there nothing unique about the students who choose to go there, or the curriculum?

Perhaps if the applicants have a different motivation, and life's experiences, and the curriculum is different and the entire ethos and perspective of the institution is different, you might get a different,, or perhaps better graduate?

I recommend the movie for what it is, a documentary, obviously positive towards USUHS but not inappropriately so. It is a sobering look at casualty care. It does a good job of pointing out that there have been moves to close the school at the Congressional level, and had that occured, it is unlikely that mil med would have the cadre of career docs currently available for this war effort.

Wow, #2 reply with only a modicum of insolence. You really want peace, or are you just in a slight professional mood, (not an insult).

I made in plain and clear that I made my assertions based on the reviews on the website, but perhaps you did not see that. Having had you lambast me based on incomplete information that was easily noted before, this does not surprise me in the least, however, I do appreciate the lack of excessive and inappropriate vitriol with which you typically draw blood with.

I never mentioned West Point, and other professional military schools, do they make better military leaders? Does anyone know the number of generals and above that came from professional military schools? Does it outnumber the one's that came from regular colleges??

If I asserted that the positivity towards ushus was inappropriate, it would be only because the follow on, ie, military medicine, is certainly broken, and you know my feelings on that.

Anyways, I appreciate the new level of moderate civility and hope it does not devolve into what has usually been the norm since you've taken an afront to my posting my opinions.

 

[mitchconnie]

I haven't seen the movie, but actually spent three days with the film crew in Iraq when they were filming at our location. It was quite amusing, because they spent several days getting lots of footage and doing innumerable interviews, then figured out that only one of the physicians actually graduated from USUHS. And this guy thought that going to USUHS was the biggest mistake of his life (because of the long 7 year committment)--I'm guessing they didn't put that in the movie.

USUHS has way less influence on milmed then they think and is a total non-factor outside the beltway. Even within DC, they have very little, if any influence on the workings of the hospitals and are derided as "USUHS-less" by many of the physicians. It's a shame, because they really have the potential to be a great force for positive change, and given DoD-wide resources could develop a national reputation. My view is that there are way to many ROAD scholars there--great for spending time teaching the students, but not much else.

 

[IgD]

USUHS has way less influence on milmed then they think and is a total non-factor outside the beltway. Even within DC, they have very little, if any influence on the workings of the hospitals and are derided as "USUHS-less" by many of the physicians. It's a shame, because they really have the potential to be a great force for positive change, and given DoD-wide resources could develop a national reputation. My view is that there are way to many ROAD scholars there--great for spending time teaching the students, but not much else.

The situation you described and especially the last comment mirrors my observations. If you look at an institution like NIH, NIMH or to a certain extent the VA some of the physicians are world renowned experts in their field. I've encountered little or no military physicians in that category. Why is that the case? It really shouldn't be.

 

[Galo]

The situation you described and especially the last comment mirrors my observations. If you look at an institution like NIH, NIMH or to a certain extent the VA some of the physicians are world renowned experts in their field. I've encountered little or no military physicians in that category. Why is that the case? It really shouldn't be.

I think the mindset of military medicine, lack of support, lack of research abilities, $$$$$$, rank system placing nurses in command of physicians, make it impossible for world renown physicians from being able to practice in the military. Look at the one single field where you would think this would be exceedingly important: TRAUMA. You have a few fellowship trained guys enjoying being off base, (Baltimore shock trauma), in supposed teaching positions and not deployable, (this may not be so now). Of course I am speaking for the AF, which will no longer have a hospital able to receive trauma once WH shuts down. Although I cannot speak for the army/navy, I have not heard they are in much better positions in regards to trauma. Most of the trauma training is gotten from where people trained, and that's about it.

Anyone with army, navy experience care to chime in???

 

[elderjack21]

USUHS has way less influence on milmed then they think and is a total non-factor outside the beltway. Even within DC, they have very little, if any influence on the workings of the hospitals and are derided as "USUHS-less" by many of the physicians.

Most DC agencies are like this...not just medicine. They think they are having a huge impact on the war effort for instance, but they are so disconnected from the reality of things on the ground that it is laughable.

 

[elderjack21]

However, what I realized yesterday as I was watching the movie the second time was that *military medicine is all these guys have*. It's broken. I can see that. Civilian hospitals are probably more efficient and treat their providers better. The comparison is tough, though, because the two systems are totally different. In your new civilian hospital, what's the deployment rate? What's the turnover rate, i.e. does everybody move every three years? The differences don't justify the problems in mil med. Those problems need to be fixed and the system needs to be improved. Any system that generates enough discontent in its physicians to bring them back to a board like this years later probably needs a major overhaul.

But Mil med is what these patients get. In Iraq, there is no better alternative. You guys have good intentions and you're doing a service in making sure potential students are informed, but any idea you have that you're going to hurt mil med to the point is has to fix itself is probably quixotic. I've clearly committed myself for at least the next 12 years, so maybe I'm just justifying what I already have to do, but I'd rather spend my time doing my best within a broken system for a really great patient population than to just go to the negative.

USUHS doesn't teach surgery, but it's a fine medical school that nobody knows much about and the movie gives it some exposure. It doesn't claim that the school teaches surgery. Maybe you could watch it and then you'd know exactly what the movie claims.

Well done. I think you make some great points here. "military medicine is all these guys have"

And thank you to those of you who are (have served) serving as physicians to the rest of us in uniform.

 

[FizbanZymogen]

Quick response, I saw this flick this last weekend and was impressed and inspired. Its no disguise that the flick is pro USU because it was drafted and pushed by the organization "friends of USUHS." It is basically a PR documentary designed to inform the general public about a little known medical school. It also spends an equal amount of time focusing on injured soldiers and their recovery processes. Nothing more, nothing less.

Mitchconnie, your take on USU is a little mistaken. To say that it has little impact on milmed is pretty amusing considering 25% of practicing milmed docs are USU grads. The actual facility and its faculty you are right about, it really doesn't affect the day to day policies of milmed but that isn't its point. Its a med school, nursing school and grad/research institute. It has about as much say in milmed function as Harvard med school does on HMO's and the federal gov's take on civilian med care (not to say it has none but lets be real here if Harvard had its way we would be operating a medical system much closer to Canada's and England's and while this may not be too far away Harvard would have created such a system if it could have a long time ago).

Watch the film with proper perspective and take it for what it is. Nothing to get heated about either way.

peace

 

[mitchconnie]

Don’t get me wrong, I’m a big fan of USUHS, and I loved being stationed there. It’s a super billet with some really nice people, and they certainly succeed with their core mission. If anyone out there has the chance to be stationed there, they should jump on it.

But the impact of the medical school is SO much more limited than your typical academic medical institution. Why do I say that? Because they really focus on only one thing—undergraduate medical education. The clinical departments of a typical top-tier (or even bottom-tier) school will also have a direct role in patient care, resident education, and clinical research. These are the things that make or break the wider influence of an academic institution. Physicians view themselves as a product of their residency training program, not usually of their medical school. Patients feel associated with the Med.Center where they got treatment, not with where their doctor went to school. And obviously major clinical trials are associated with institutions that provide direct patient care.

At USUHS, in contrast, you have a cadre of faculty, often semi-retired or end-of-career guys, that stay at the school, run the departments, and teach the students. Then there is a completely separate large number of “faculty” who are associated with the school in name only and virtually never see the campus, but take care of patients, teach the residents, do the clinical research, and do the deployments. Major externally-funded research initiatives, like the Comprehensive Breast Center, or the Joint Theater Trauma Registry are controlled by individual Medical Centers, not USUHS. Residencies are almost all “Walter Reed” “NNMC” or “NCA consortium” and not USUHS. Frankly, I don’t get it. Especially with the reorganization of the entire NCA medical system right on their doorstep, I don’t understand why USUHS isn’t a major player at every level of education and research. But for whatever reason, USUHS doesn’t seem to have a seat at the table. So it would appear to me that they are destined to forever be “the best medical school you’ve never heard of” because that is the niche that they have chosen—or been relegated to.

 

[IgD]

...they really focus on only one thing—undergraduate medical education.

Would it be fair to say the primary mission of USUHS is to create a slave labor force? With that analogy it's like the orc pit in Lord of the Rings. The orcs get their freedom after 7 years

 

[SgtDoc]

My gf and I are going to DC this Saturday for my spring break. I see that there are two theaters showing the movie. When I looked at the schedule, there are showtimes all this week, and again starting like the 28th or something, but none for next week, when we'll be there. Hopefully it's just some mystery of the internet world and they will actually be showing it.

 

[a1qwerty55]

Don’t get me wrong, I’m a big fan of USUHS, and I loved being stationed there. It’s a super billet with some really nice people, and they certainly succeed with their core mission. If anyone out there has the chance to be stationed there, they should jump on it.

But the impact of the medical school is SO much more limited than your typical academic medical institution.

The University doesn't perhaps impact policy much but the graduates most certainly do. Don't discount the benefits of having a cadre of graduates who know one another, can network and change things from within.

 

[Galo]

The University doesn't perhaps impact policy much but the graduates most certainly do. Don't discount the benefits of having a cadre of graduates who know one another, can network and change things from within.

If we assume this point is correct, when is this change from within going to happen? I have seen quite the opposite, as a worsening system continues to devolve. For example, our surgeon general, Peach Taylor, (do not know if he's a ushus grad), is a flight surgeon who NEVER did a residency, took care of inpatients, and has limitations of his own when it comes to implementing health care. Perhaps its different in the Army? If you could elaborate. Thanks

 

[a1qwerty55]

If we assume this point is correct, when is this change from within going to happen? I have seen quite the opposite, as a worsening system continues to devolve. For example, our surgeon general, Peach Taylor, (do not know if he's a ushus grad), is a flight surgeon who NEVER did a residency, took care of inpatients, and has limitations of his own when it comes to implementing health care. Perhaps its different in the Army? If you could elaborate. Thanks

Change is ongoing, gradual and usually isn't coming from the flag officer level. There is an awfull lot that happens behind the scenes. An example would be AHLTA. The program delivered by the contrator sucked, but military docs in informal networks have pushed for improvements/work arounds. The new version actually looks pretty good to me, nonwithstanding the reality that there will be glitches.

You'll get no argument from me regarding the leadership failures at the flag officer level. I can't speak to the USAF SG , other that to say that so long as they (USAF and Congress) select nonclinicians, (RAM's), they probably aren't going to get physician or patient advocates at the helm. The current Army SG is an Internist, the Navy one a General Surgeon. So at least those two services are lead by someone who has actually been at the bedside.

 

[Galo]

Change is ongoing, gradual and usually isn't coming from the flag officer level. There is an awfull lot that happens behind the scenes. An example would be AHLTA. The program delivered by the contrator sucked, but military docs in informal networks have pushed for improvements/work arounds. The new version actually looks pretty good to me, nonwithstanding the reality that there will be glitches.

You'll get no argument from me regarding the leadership failures at the flag officer level. I can't speak to the USAF SG , other that to say that so long as they (USAF and Congress) select nonclinicians, (RAM's), they probably aren't going to get physician or patient advocates at the helm. The current Army SG is an Internist, the Navy one a General Surgeon. So at least those two services are lead by someone who has actually been at the bedside.

Our previous surgeon general was also a general surgeon. He did nothing to make things better. The one communique that I got after I sent him a 4 page letter, multiple emails, and phone calls, was a direct order to stop, and a phone call from a deputy telling me that "change is GLACIAL".

That pace of change is something I could just not deal with, and the source of all the problems we argue about.

ALTHA I can make no comment on as I had no experience with it.

 

[a1qwerty55]

Our previous surgeon general was also a general surgeon. He did nothing to make things better. The one communique that I got after I sent him a 4 page letter, multiple emails, and phone calls, was a direct order to stop,

So, you thought the Surgeon General was your pen pal?

Not the most productive way to enact change.

 

[Galo]

So, you thought the Surgeon General was your pen pal?

Not the most productive way to enact change.

Its what happens when you seem to have exhausted every other level of command including the Inspector General. My hospital commander, on 0-6 pediatrician who was actually a pretty level headed guy despite being a company man through and through, gave me the analogy that he was flying at 50,000K feet, while we were just on the runway. That there was no way any of my, (all surgeon's) problems would even get to him.

Its that type of "don't care," "can't help," "does not affect me" type of attitude why mil med will never change, and remain a poor and mediocre system...............in my opinion.

 

[rotatores]

Would it be fair to say the primary mission of USUHS is to create a slave labor force? With that analogy it's like the orc pit in Lord of the Rings. The orcs get their freedom after 7 years

It's safe to say you've never made a single comment worth reading!..and I even feel a little but ashamed that I'm responding to this!!! I'm still convinced you're a just a kid out there with too much time on your hands!

 

[IgD]

It's safe to say you've never made a single comment worth reading!..and I even feel a little but ashamed that I'm responding to this!!! I'm still convinced you're a just a kid out there with too much time on your hands!

I regret taking a cheap shot at USUHS. On the other hand, you have to admit there is some truth to what I'm saying. The military health system loves that 7 year commitment...

 

[BomberDoc]

Every USUHS grad I know loved it while in med school... then hated real milmed during the payback years. As much as doing HPSP is the biggest mistake of my life, I'm glad I turned down a USUHS spot because 4 years of hell is better than 7 years of hell.

 

[paradude]

Ok,

Back on topic,

"Fighting for Life" is a pretty cool movie. It's fun for your family to appreciate what you do for them on a daily basis. Go out and watch it and support the movie if you have the time.

It's easy to rag on milmed and the decision we've made but I recently spoke with a buddy of mine who is a 2nd year surgical resident at a program in PA. He wishes he would have either taken an HPSP scholarship or have gone to USU. Getting into debt $170,000 is a pretty serious consideration no matter who you are.

In any case, you can't compete with the premise. We really have the best patient pop. sans none.

 

[Homunculus]

I regret taking a cheap shot at USUHS. On the other hand, you have to admit there is some truth to what I'm saying. The military health system loves that 7 year commitment...

i think there are a lot of good folks that go through there-- their ratio of good docs to sh*tbags is about the same as civilian.

my only (well, one of them i guess) concern is how inbred the place is. milmed staff, milmed research, milmed rotations, milmed this, milmed that. i know they do a few rotations outside, but they never really get a feel for what things *can* be like (at least in my experience with 3 years of rotating students).

and yes, i think "The Man" loves the 7 year committment, because its the only way they can guarantee some officers to run the joint because everyone else is jumping ship, lol.

i think the staff positions there are non-deployable as well, right?

--your friendly neighborhood usuhs parking hating caveman

 

[loplii]

i think there are a lot of good folks that go through there-- their ratio of good docs to sh*tbags is about the same as civilian.

my only (well, one of them i guess) concern is how inbred the place is. milmed staff, milmed research, milmed rotations, milmed this, milmed that. i know they do a few rotations outside, but they never really get a feel for what things *can* be like (at least in my experience with 3 years of rotating students).

and yes, i think "The Man" loves the 7 year committment, because its the only way they can guarantee some officers to run the joint because everyone else is jumping ship, lol.

i think the staff positions there are non-deployable as well, right?

--your friendly neighborhood usuhs parking hating caveman

i just order this movie online because i am interested in USU. you guys have a big debate here and i really have no idea what i gone choose.

i do wanna join the army since i got into college. however, this pre-med course holds me back. i think USU is a good product when you put your medical dream and army together.

7 years commitement is a challenge. not for me but for the one i love.. he doesnt want me to go. but if i got accepted by USU, i probably gone take it.

i am interested in becoming surgeon and wanna do some really trauma surgery, not some small, easy, daily basis surgery...that is why i wanna go to army. maybe i am wrong..i am kinda of lost what i wanna do

anyway, i gone watch this movie first. i am shocked by seeing this trailer, it is amazing

by the way, it is hard to buy this movie. i call blockbuster and serarch everywhere on line. eventually, i got it from american film foundation

 

[DocArmy]

loplii,

Good to see you around.

I take it from your post that you're headed off to college in the near future, correct? Trauma surgery is a great field and a great goal to shoot for.

You have a lot between now and then, but keep after it. For now, focus on doing well in undergrad and getting accepted into medical school. When that time comes around, USUHS is a great school, there's HPSP or FAP programs that you could look into as well.

Good luck.

 

[vikingsfan]

It's safe to say you've never made a single comment worth reading!..and I even feel a little but ashamed that I'm responding to this!!! I'm still convinced you're a just a kid out there with too much time on your hands!

As an "orc" who is very close to finishing his very eventfull/challenging/and yes at times rewarding 7 years of servitude in equally both clinical and operational settings but who has never had much of an appetite or taste for eating other "orcs", I have to respectfully disagree with your opinion on this one.

That comparison was quite clever and actually the funniest thing I have ever read on this forum. And believe it or not, I am not really a fan of the books or movies. Thanks for the laugh.

Back to address the original subject...Good movie...Very honest description of the experience one of our many (from the last I read now over 30,000) wounded warriors went through. For the times (and there will be many of those times) you are experiencing "the suck" in what ever you are doing in military medicine, it can be a brief reminder of our primary mission. A films that adds to this is HBO's Documentary Alive Day. Actually the same soldier followed in Fighting for Life is also featured in Alive Day.

However in my opinion, I think HBO's documentry Bagdhad ER was just as good if not better in giving insight into the role of military physicians (at least from a CSH perspective).

If you really need a reminder of our primary mission, without specifically/directly speaking to military medicine, I recommend RESTEPO (named after a fallen combat medic). A must see for ANYONE. Military/Non-military/medical/non-medical alike.

In summary
Fighting for Life 3 stars (out of 4)
Alive Day 3 stars
Baghdaad ER 3 1/2 stars
Restepo 4 stars
Lord of the Rings Trilogy 2 stars

 

[Re3iRtH]

Every USUHS grad I know loved it while in med school... then hated real milmed during the payback years. As much as doing HPSP is the biggest mistake of my life, I'm glad I turned down a USUHS spot because 4 years of hell is better than 7 years of hell.

There are crappy docs and good docs in civilian med as well as milmed. Just like there are people that like their life and people that hate their life in both civilian AND mil medicine.
This whole '4 years of hell' thing, honestly you can't blame 4 years that your life sucked solely on the military. In a life thats 80 years long, there will be periods where our life is hard and periods where everything you do turns to gold.
I am a USUHS student and these last 4 years have been amazing. Better than 4 years in college. If I had a crappy 4 years down the road I'm not going to go on this forum and say "Oh its all the militarys fault". It's all about mindset.
For example, say you didn't accept HPSP, and did a civilian residency, maybe just by sheer luck a car ran you over while you were crossing the street to get to the hospital. That may be a hard year for you. But you wouldn't say "damn, should have done hpsp, I wouldnt be working in these hospital with this busy street right now"
So relax, have a cold one, and know that if you don't like your career, you can always try something different if you are up for it.

 

[DoctaJMa]

There are crappy docs and good docs in civilian med as well as milmed. Just like there are people that like their life and people that hate their life in both civilian AND mil medicine.
This whole '4 years of hell' thing, honestly you can't blame 4 years that your life sucked solely on the military. In a life thats 80 years long, there will be periods where our life is hard and periods where everything you do turns to gold.
I am a USUHS student and these last 4 years have been amazing. Better than 4 years in college. If I had a crappy 4 years down the road I'm not going to go on this forum and say "Oh its all the militarys fault". It's all about mindset.
For example, say you didn't accept HPSP, and did a civilian residency, maybe just by sheer luck a car ran you over while you were crossing the street to get to the hospital. That may be a hard year for you. But you wouldn't say "damn, should have done hpsp, I wouldnt be working in these hospital with this busy street right now"
So relax, have a cold one, and know that if you don't like your career, you can always try something different if you are up for it.

 

[ThunderHorse]

There are crappy docs and good docs in civilian med as well as milmed. Just like there are people that like their life and people that hate their life in both civilian AND mil medicine.
This whole '4 years of hell' thing, honestly you can't blame 4 years that your life sucked solely on the military. In a life thats 80 years long, there will be periods where our life is hard and periods where everything you do turns to gold.
I am a USUHS student and these last 4 years have been amazing. Better than 4 years in college. If I had a crappy 4 years down the road I'm not going to go on this forum and say "Oh its all the militarys fault". It's all about mindset.
For example, say you didn't accept HPSP, and did a civilian residency, maybe just by sheer luck a car ran you over while you were crossing the street to get to the hospital. That may be a hard year for you. But you wouldn't say "damn, should have done hpsp, I wouldnt be working in these hospital with this busy street right now"
So relax, have a cold one, and know that if you don't like your career, you can always try something different if you are up for it.

yes

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

There are crappy docs and good docs in civilian med as well as milmed. Just like there are people that like their life and people that hate their life in both civilian AND mil medicine.
This whole '4 years of hell' thing, honestly you can't blame 4 years that your life sucked solely on the military. In a life thats 80 years long, there will be periods where our life is hard and periods where everything you do turns to gold.
I am a USUHS student and these last 4 years have been amazing. Better than 4 years in college. If I had a crappy 4 years down the road I'm not going to go on this forum and say "Oh its all the militarys fault". It's all about mindset.
For example, say you didn't accept HPSP, and did a civilian residency, maybe just by sheer luck a car ran you over while you were crossing the street to get to the hospital. That may be a hard year for you. But you wouldn't say "damn, should have done hpsp, I wouldnt be working in these hospital with this busy street right now"
So relax, have a cold one, and know that if you don't like your career, you can always try something different if you are up for it.

Would you think it was weird if a stranger came up to you, randomly on the street, and picked up a conversation you had with someone else over 3 years ago?

 

[EMDoc0411]

There are crappy docs and good docs in civilian med as well as milmed. Just like there are people that like their life and people that hate their life in both civilian AND mil medicine.
This whole '4 years of hell' thing, honestly you can't blame 4 years that your life sucked solely on the military. In a life thats 80 years long, there will be periods where our life is hard and periods where everything you do turns to gold.
I am a USUHS student and these last 4 years have been amazing. Better than 4 years in college. If I had a crappy 4 years down the road I'm not going to go on this forum and say "Oh its all the militarys fault". It's all about mindset.
For example, say you didn't accept HPSP, and did a civilian residency, maybe just by sheer luck a car ran you over while you were crossing the street to get to the hospital. That may be a hard year for you. But you wouldn't say "damn, should have done hpsp, I wouldnt be working in these hospital with this busy street right now"
So relax, have a cold one, and know that if you don't like your career, you can always try something different if you are up for it.

Once you're a doc, then I'll consider what you post. In the meantime, I could care less what you have to say.

 

[AF M4]

Would you think it was weird if a stranger came up to you, randomly on the street, and picked up a conversation you had with someone else over 3 years ago?

Exactly. Can we create a statute of limitations or something for thread resurrections? 3 years is beyond Lazarus-stage and well into full-blown zombie ripeness.

 

[BomberDoc]

Would you think it was weird if a stranger came up to you, randomly on the street, and picked up a conversation you had with someone else over 3 years ago?

Yes, I would.

 

[Galo]

There are crappy docs and good docs in civilian med as well as milmed. Just like there are people that like their life and people that hate their life in both civilian AND mil medicine.
This whole '4 years of hell' thing, honestly you can't blame 4 years that your life sucked solely on the military. In a life thats 80 years long, there will be periods where our life is hard and periods where everything you do turns to gold.
I am a USUHS student and these last 4 years have been amazing. Better than 4 years in college. If I had a crappy 4 years down the road I'm not going to go on this forum and say "Oh its all the militarys fault". It's all about mindset.
For example, say you didn't accept HPSP, and did a civilian residency, maybe just by sheer luck a car ran you over while you were crossing the street to get to the hospital. That may be a hard year for you. But you wouldn't say "damn, should have done hpsp, I wouldnt be working in these hospital with this busy street right now"
So relax, have a cold one, and know that if you don't like your career, you can always try something different if you are up for it.

I agree with everyone else that's been through it. Its easy for you to say what you say till you acutally experience it.

So your skills eroding, malignant nurses who overrule the way you care for patients, time consuming meaningless issues that take away from what you trained for, and so on and so on. Would you blame yourself for a broken system? Even if you have the patience of an angel, you may find yourself in a continually opposing relationship between what is the military, and what is your medical career.

I hope it changes for all you coming into a system that you probably did not know much about, or were totally lied to about.

Although you may not choose to blame military medicine, it will be interesting to see how your experience occurs. Its also nice to pass it on good or bad.

best of luck

 

[haujun]

There are crappy docs and good docs in civilian med as well as milmed. Just like there are people that like their life and people that hate their life in both civilian AND mil medicine.
This whole '4 years of hell' thing, honestly you can't blame 4 years that your life sucked solely on the military. In a life thats 80 years long, there will be periods where our life is hard and periods where everything you do turns to gold.
I am a USUHS student and these last 4 years have been amazing. Better than 4 years in college. If I had a crappy 4 years down the road I'm not going to go on this forum and say "Oh its all the militarys fault". It's all about mindset.
For example, say you didn't accept HPSP, and did a civilian residency, maybe just by sheer luck a car ran you over while you were crossing the street to get to the hospital. That may be a hard year for you. But you wouldn't say "damn, should have done hpsp, I wouldnt be working in these hospital with this busy street right now"
So relax, have a cold one, and know that if you don't like your career, you can always try something different if you are up for it.

Of course your years are amazing--you are very well paid medical student paying zero tuition! Most if not all USUHS students enjoy their school and training. I enjoyed mine as a HPSP student and residency. Hell, I enjoyed my few years during enlistment before medical school and I can take the pain. However my experiences as attending have not been relatively great filled with psychological frustration, disrespect for and from nurses/administrators...and the most frustrating part is that I cannot work well with these difficult nurses who command over you. So I spend more time doing operational work, prefering to work outside of hospital leading to skill atrophy.

One good thing about the military: PCS--Hoping for better place.

 

[Atlas Shrugged]

It's really a reflex with you, isn't it? I need facts to back up my reply, but you haven't even seen the movie and feel totally free to critique it? Go see the movie and then come back and give a blistering review. Until then, you don't know what you're talking about re: the movie.

About military medicine, I've been reading this board for a long time. I strongly considered this advice before going to USUHS. I'm an intelligent person who doesn't like unthinking authority. I resent stupid people telling what to do and the military is great at that. I was pretty sick of it when I finished my first long commitment as a pilot and I'm sure I'll be sick of it when I finish this one.

However, what I realized yesterday as I was watching the movie the second time was that *military medicine is all these guys have*. It's broken. I can see that. Civilian hospitals are probably more efficient and treat their providers better. The comparison is tough, though, because the two systems are totally different. In your new civilian hospital, what's the deployment rate? What's the turnover rate, i.e. does everybody move every three years? The differences don't justify the problems in mil med. Those problems need to be fixed and the system needs to be improved. Any system that generates enough discontent in its physicians to bring them back to a board like this years later probably needs a major overhaul.

But Mil med is what these patients get. In Iraq, there is no better alternative. You guys have good intentions and you're doing a service in making sure potential students are informed, but any idea you have that you're going to hurt mil med to the point is has to fix itself is probably quixotic. I've clearly committed myself for at least the next 12 years, so maybe I'm just justifying what I already have to do, but I'd rather spend my time doing my best within a broken system for a really great patient population than to just go to the negative.

USUHS doesn't teach surgery, but it's a fine medical school that nobody knows much about and the movie gives it some exposure. It doesn't claim that the school teaches surgery. Maybe you could watch it and then you'd know exactly what the movie claims.

Despite all of the negative things I've learned about milmed I still want to join for these exact reasons you have stated. I am willing to endure a little hardship to care for these men and women that do so much for us.

 

[grotto]

every single thread is the same in this forum.

someone (usually a bright eyed pre med) posts something blindly positive about mil med -> people rush in to crush dreams -> Galo -> people who always disagree with galo -> galo -> a "i don't care i do it for the troops" post -> NURSES! -> people lost interest -> post resurrected in 2014


Here's an idea to spice things up: Maybe we should just get rid of HPSP and restrict military medicine to prior service officers, enlisted and Corpsman who fit the requirements and who actually feel blessed to be where they are. Who maybe are a bit more mature and savvy in dealing with common military bureaucratic issues when they get into this business.

Oh, and they might do a better job actually serving the line - because they know what its like to be a line officer.

 

[Gastrapathy]

every single thread is the same in this forum.

someone (usually a bright eyed pre med) posts something blindly positive about mil med -> people rush in to crush dreams -> Galo -> people who always disagree with galo -> galo -> a "i don't care i do it for the troops" post -> NURSES! -> people lost interest -> post resurrected in 2014


Here's an idea to spice things up: Maybe we should just get rid of HPSP and restrict military medicine to prior service officers, enlisted and Corpsman who fit the requirements and who actually feel blessed to be where they are. Who maybe are a bit more mature and savvy in dealing with common military bureaucratic issues when they get into this business.

Oh, and they might do a better job actually serving the line - because they know what its like to be a line officer.

Paragraph 1 above: ok
Paragraph 2 onward: umm no. you've fired me up here.

Doctors don't need to know what its like to be a line officer. Its only SWOs who think they know everything about everything. Doctors need to know how to be doctors.

We don't serve the line. At least, not exclusively. We also serve the individual sailor, the long-term interests of the US government in preventing/mitigating disability, the retiree who has already served his country but is now a private citizen, and about 10 other masters. You need to understand then when I see the widow of a retiree in consultation for her dyspepsia, my obligation is to provide her with quality medicine and that has absolutely nothing to do with the needs of the current line Navy (in fact, doing my job is probably in direct conflict with the Pentagon's interests because providing good care costs more than providing bad care).

HPSP works because we get naive young doctors to serve their country. We need the numbers desperately.

Prior service physicians are not always our best. The O5 ROAD prior service physician sees 30% fewer patients than I do and has no collaterals. There are lots of exceptions to this, but that would not be a medical staff I would want to see. Also, its hard for an old dude to do lengthy specialty training. How many prior service guys do you know who were PGY6s (ie GS, IM subs, Neurosurg, etc). Most of us were young when we trained.

The argument about being savvy is so funny when it comes from a line officer. Tell me something, when your department on your ship needed to get something done, did you ever secure liberty? Try that with my civilian nurses. In the real world, the nurses work a couple of hours of overtime and I get home on time. Instead, I get to wait 4 hours for an OR slot for an emergent case. There is no amount of wizardry that will fix this because there is no incentive to fix it. You will see that the Navy does not view retaining me as an incentive (in fact, I recently heard a current flag internist say that he didn't think there was any point in TRYING to retain IM subspecialists).

Finally, the arrogance implicit in your post is stunning. You actually believe that your SWOness will make you a better Navy physician. Operational medicine is EASY. Taking care of a cholangitic 85yo WW2 vet on coumadin with GNR bacteremia and an acute MI is HARD. That is what being a doctor is and it has nothing to do with driving a ship or starting IVs or taking advancement exams.