etiquette for various audition rotation finagling

[wellbutrin.girlfriend]

So I've been rejected for an away rotation at a program I really wanted and now I have questions:

• Would it be worth it to reach out to the program coordinator to ask for feedback on my application? Criteria they wanted that maybe I could optimize come ERAS time?
• Can I go back into VSLO and apply to different rotations? For example, if I was rejected from their inpatient sub-internship but they had a million other psych electives posted
  • As a follow-up, can a rotation that's labeled as just an elective (I think a key difference is usually that you are not working with residents) be parlayed into an experience that is as valuable as a sub-internship?
• I'm going to the APA annual meeting next week. Any chance I can earn myself an audition by networking there?

For an audition rotation I've been accepted to:

• I have an audition in February. I know there's a good chance it will be too late to really help me with the match, but I definitely still want to do it for the experience, if nothing else. However, can I email the program coordinator and say that I would love an earlier rotation if one becomes available? Or is that not a good look?

Also

• Any tips or advice for reaching out to programs that have ghosted me?

And lastly,

• Networking at the APA Annual Meeting is the first time I've really been to a networking event where I have an explicit outcome that I want out of my interactions. In the past, "networking" has been a passive activity where I just go with the flow and be sociable and reasonably engaged. I don't know if going with the flow is necessarily in my best interest here, but I am also worried about interactions coming off as ingenious.

TIA for any help!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[phonyreal98]

With no knowledge about you or the institution you applied to for an away, the most common reason applicants are rejected from away rotations is that the rotations are full with that institution's own students.

 

[splik]

First, there is no such a thing as an "audition" rotation. These are away rotations. Some of them could impact your ability to match at said program, most of them will not. many will be with peripheral faculty who are not really involved in residency selection.

Second, the program coordinator has not looked at your application most likely and is not going to give you helpful feedback.

At some places, students are selected to do aways by the residency program apparatus, but at many schools, the residency is not involved at all. Some students may get away rotations even though they have no hope in hell of ever matching at the program. First dibs go to home students. There are also particular times of year (July-Oct) that are very popular for sub-is so will be harder to get.

You should ask whoever the point of contact is for that school whether you can apply for other rotations. If that rotation was popular, you might not have got it. On the other hand, if they were reviewing you as a potential applicant, they may have just rejected you outright. It is entirely school dependent.

And yes, you can ask if they an earlier rotation becomes available for that slot. Cancellations are actually not uncommon.

No one has ghosted you. No reply is a reply in this context. Get used to it.

Ideally you want to do an inpatient, consult-liaison or emergency psychiatry rotation (regardless of whether it's labelled as a sub-i or not). Technically, the C-L 4th yr rotation I precepted was not a sub-i but we still called the students sub-is. The issue is if you're doing some outpatient rotation or something like forensics or at some peripheral hospital, there will be less of a chance for you to make an impact or show what kind of resident you will be. The exception is if the rotation is with influential faculty (like the PD or chair etc).

For most people, if these rotations make an impact it is to harm rather than help. That said, I still highly recommend students do away rotations, especially DO students. You may be able to get some good letters which can help your application overall.

 

[wellbutrin.girlfriend]

First, there is no such a thing as an "audition" rotation. These are away rotations. Some of them could impact your ability to match at said program, most of them will not. many will be with peripheral faculty who are not really involved in residency selection.

Second, the program coordinator has not looked at your application most likely and is not going to give you helpful feedback.

At some places, students are selected to do aways by the residency program apparatus, but at many schools, the residency is not involved at all. Some students may get away rotations even though they have no hope in hell of ever matching at the program. First dibs go to home students. There are also particular times of year (July-Oct) that are very popular for sub-is so will be harder to get.

You should ask whoever the point of contact is for that school whether you can apply for other rotations. If that rotation was popular, you might not have got it. On the other hand, if they were reviewing you as a potential applicant, they may have just rejected you outright. It is entirely school dependent.

And yes, you can ask if they an earlier rotation becomes available for that slot. Cancellations are actually not uncommon.

No one has ghosted you. No reply is a reply in this context. Get used to it.

Ideally you want to do an inpatient, consult-liaison or emergency psychiatry rotation (regardless of whether it's labelled as a sub-i or not). Technically, the C-L 4th yr rotation I precepted was not a sub-i but we still called the students sub-is. The issue is if you're doing some outpatient rotation or something like forensics or at some peripheral hospital, there will be less of a chance for you to make an impact or show what kind of resident you will be. The exception is if the rotation is with influential faculty (like the PD or chair etc).

For most people, if these rotations make an impact it is to harm rather than help. That said, I still highly recommend students do away rotations, especially DO students. You may be able to get some good letters which can help your application overall.

Great info! Really appreciate your answer

 

[clozareal]

I think away rotations are a great way to get familiar with the residents/faculty that are on the residency selection committee and see how you work. If you have a tough time mingling with new people, aren't strong clinically, and don't take initiative during your away rotation, it can hurt you more than help you. We've put people lower on our residency list because of issues like that than if they were to not have done the away rotation at all.

Every residency has a different composition of people on the selection committee. At my residency, it was the 3rd and 4th year residents. This is important because they can vouch for you if you do an away rotation with them, which in this case is often outpatient rotations. Same with faculty. Try sticking to core rotations like what splik said above.

February sounds a bit late into the game and they will have already interviewed you and deliberated on your score for ranking purposes. I would recommend doing it earlier. September/October is ideal, summer being second most ideal.

When you go to APA, go to the receptions for the programs you are interested in and express interest in an away rotation or being interviewed there. You'll figure out who is responsible for those decisions and again, express interest to them directly. Then follow-up with them in an email a day afterwards about your conversation and your interest. If it feels disingenuous, then you may want to consider why you want to do an away rotation there. You should be able to share personal reasons (e.g., closer to family, specific factor of the residency program aligning with your interests, location of interest, etc) for wanting to go there.

I did two away rotations. One of them, I worked with CAP fellows who weren't part of the core program and the other I was part of the inpatient adult residents which was a much better experience. I had a positive experience doing an away rotation although I'm not sure if it would have changed the outcome on their end. It definitely did on my end as I was struggling to figure out which of the two programs I wanted to go to. It became abundantly clear which one I was happier at during the away rotation.

 

[Celexa]

I am directly involved in the decisions about who we accept for away rotations at my institution.

We are incredibly busy and do not have time to give application feedback to away applicants. You should be seeking that feedback from your own school if possible. We do not make decisions based on straight competitiveness, though. We are looking to bring in people who are likely to want to do residency with us. That can be frustrating from the outside bc the criteria can be a little mysterious. Frankly, they're mysterious to us too at times.

If you are interested/willing to rotate on a different service/elective, it would be reasonable to email and ask if there are any openings in the other things.

Terminology differs from place to place so the subi vs elective distinction is not always helpful. HOWEVER usually inpatient rotations (inpatient units and consults, sometimes emergency psych settings) are going to be the places where you can truly 'audition' and demonstrate the skills people want to see in a resident. Outpatient, or subspecialty electives that involve exposure to many different settings but little continuity of supervisors and/or limited amounts of direct clincial care, are much less amenable to the type of exposure where you get a letter.

At my institution attempting to turn an elective explicitly labeled as a casual exposure to different settings into an audition and hoping to get a letter would NOT go down well, as we take the amount of commitment and teaching time required to do one vs the other into the descriptions and scheduling. There are faculty who are more than happy to take a med student along for a day or two to see what they do but who aren't otherwise heavily involved in med ed and don't supervise residents or clerkship students, and our continued ability to maintain availability in our electives requires honesty in advertising when I make asks of their time.

Many schools are also dealing with a surge in interest in psychiatry from our own students. We are taking fewer external rotators than last year because we need to be sure we can meet the needs of our internal students. There's nothing you as an outside student can do to change that.