Ethical to report illegals?

[pujllay]

What the hell does managed care have to do with illegal immigrants overcrowding city ERs? If anything it should make it easier for illegals to get ER beds, since less people will visit ERs secondary to the lack of coverage.

I as a "full-fledge" professional work in the ER almost every day. I have a brain and I make informed observations. I extrapolate and draw what appear to be relatively sound conclusions about a growing problem. To ignore it in the face of fear of offending certain groups does nothing to solve the problem. According to many of Crisis' links, I'm not the first full fledged professional to come to this conclusion. Sorry that's not politically correct.

All right then, observe and read the study on CA EDs


Hint… Study Vs. sensationalized personal article

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[pujllay]

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I really, truely no longer care whether my ideas are offensive to certain segments of society. All of us have had patients that seem to hate us, even though we do everything right, and 99.9% of the other patients like us. It's a sample size phenomenon. No matter what I do or say, there will be a segment of the population that doesn't like it.

For those of you that have already matched, what does it matter whether people abide with your perspective, opinion, or politics. Whatever your philosophy, don't let people shut you up by throwing out the "R" word.

The physicist Richard Feynman wrote a wonderful book titled, "What do you care what other people think." As professionals it's important to speak your mind without fear of other's opinions.

Don’t get all pissy now.

Rant away and exercise your freedom of speech. Everybody’s got to have a hissing valve somewhere.

 

[Ligament]

Medical care is not a comodity that is bought and traded, it is a service that is provided. It can not be held back until someone has paid an arbitrary amibiguous debt to society. Everyone regardless of their background, language or culture deserves equal health care services.

I hope you get hit by a drunk driver tonight, then how great is your $hithead life going to be.

Vigils, you are ignorant to the financial realities of being a physician.

Medical care is a service that *is bought and traded*. We as physicians sell our services. NOBODY *deserves* "equal health care services" unless they can pay for it in some fashion, be it cash, barter, taxes, or service to THIS country.

If you view medical care as a right then YOU become a slave, doctor. You want to MAKE me give free medical services because it is a right? I am a free man selling a service, and that is medical attention. I am not a slave.

I do agree with CHARITY medical care to patients, performed *willingly* by the physician that can afford to do so. Ideally a physican will have a practice that affords them the financial stability to do a significant amount of CHARITY work.

I do not wish you to be hit by a drunk driver.

By the way, I am all for legal immigrants from any country.

 

[penguins]

Mexican physicians are better than American physicians because they are products of a morally superior third world country that is not tainted by the self important paternalism and decadence of capitalism. The only reason that the Mexican system can not deliver better care than the American system is that they are under the thumb of the imperialist jingoism of the United States. Ultimately the only way to bring true justice to the people of the third world is to completely socialize the entire economy of the US and redistribute all of that ill gotten wealth. The current administration and Halliburton are minions of Satan and must be tried in The Hague for war crimes and crimes against The World.

 

[Entei]

Vigils, you are ignorant to the financial realities of being a physician.

Medical care is a service that *is bought and traded*. We as physicians sell our services. NOBODY *deserves* "equal health care services" unless they can pay for it in some fashion, be it cash, barter, taxes, or service to THIS country.

If you view medical care as a right then YOU become a slave, doctor. You want to MAKE me give free medical services because it is a right? I am a free man selling a service, and that is medical attention. I am not a slave.

I do agree with CHARITY medical care to patients, performed *willingly* by the physician that can afford to do so. Ideally a physican will have a practice that affords them the financial stability to do a significant amount of CHARITY work.

I do not wish you to be hit by a drunk driver.

By the way, I am all for legal immigrants from any country.

This post was made possible by the generous support of the Necrobump Foundation.
And by viewers like you!

 

[Poety]

hello? Off topic...

Murder is not quite the same thing as illegal immigration... wouldn't you agree?

totally agree Why would anyone feel compelled to report someone whos really not harming someone else? Yeah you can balloon it up into the whole health care drain etc etc, but then again - this country is BUILT on immigration - seems that as of late Americans don't want it that way - talk about xenophobia.

 

[KluverBucy]

totally agree Why would anyone feel compelled to report someone whos really not harming someone else? Yeah you can balloon it up into the whole health care drain etc etc, but then again - this country is BUILT on immigration - seems that as of late Americans don't want it that way - talk about xenophobia.

get rid of all the illegals and build a wall between us and mexico. i'm sick of this. the illegals come here, reproduce like rats, and then drain our economy. and then i have to pay more and more taxes each year to support their children who were born in this country. and don't give me this crap that this country was built on illegal immigration...clearly you weren't paying attention in history class.

 

[penguins]

totally agree Why would anyone feel compelled to report someone whos really not harming someone else? Yeah you can balloon it up into the whole health care drain etc etc, but then again - this country is BUILT on immigration - seems that as of late Americans don't want it that way - talk about xenophobia.

Ya, it was built on LEGAL immigration - my great grandparents came here legally.
While I am totally against illegal immigration and support the minutemen, I don't know that I should (as a physician) be reporting illegals. It isn't that I wouldn't want to but I think my obligation to them as a doc is more important than my obligation as a US citizen. I agree with the poster who talked about how it would prevent folks from getting care. The greater good - for healthcare purposes - might be served by not reporting them.
As a private citizen, however, I say report their a$$.

Arguements from both sides make a lot of compelling points regarding reporting as a physician.

We wouldn't have to worry about it if we would quit talking and start building that wall and start enforcing the laws we already have on the books!!!

 

[fishmonger69]

Medical care is not a comodity that is bought and traded, it is a service that is provided. It can not be held back until someone has paid an arbitrary amibiguous debt to society. Everyone regardless of their background, language or culture deserves equal health care services.

wow. way to contradict yourself in that paragraph.

first you say medical care is a service provided, but then proceed to say it cannot be withheld for payment, closing with the customary 'everyone deserves equal health care services' (read: has the 'right' to medical care). make up your mind.

if it is a service, it can be withheld until both parties agree on 'payment'. if you say medical care is a 'right', or that everyone 'deserves' equal medical care, you are wrong. medical care cannot be a 'right' because that would impose an obligation on another (the physician). sorry, regardless of my knowledge or ability in the medical field i am not obligated to do jack **** for anyone under the auspices of 'right to medical care'. i freely offer my services and patients can enter freely into a contract for my services that requires payment, or they can freely head to another physician.

 

[spalatin]

Absolutely not! If every law-abiding citizen was to report an illegal immigrant whom he comes in contact - whether a physician/patient, attorney/client - illegal immigration would be successfully eliminated from this country. If so, there would a severe shortage of cheap labor for low-paying jobs. 99.9% of proud and brave US born Americans will not take on jobs such as maids, gardeners, dishwashers, sweatshops in downtown LA, etc. They will not waste a day's work on these manial jobs when they can take on jobs that will pay for their lexury car and designer clothes. In the end, the well being of the legal resident will be undermined because some of the basic needs are not being fulfilled.

I beg to differ: my maid is an American Citizen who works her tail off to keep my house clean as a whistle, uses ecologically sound cleaning supplies and for what I consider a very reasonable negotiated wage. My sister, also an American Citizen works as a hotel maid and counting tips and perks does reasonably well. Well enough that she's never been unemployed, has a better lifestyle than I do as a resident, and is in better financial shape (at least for the moment).

I'm sorry, I've lived in a Mexican border state, and just don't buy this argument. Americans will work hard and menial jobs. For 8 decades factory workers have done menial jobs for excellent wages. I can't think of anything more menial than screwing four bolts on a body assembly with an impact wrench for 8-12 hours a day with a 40 minute lunch break and two twenty minute coffee breaks, six days a week. Except if you were fortunate enough to have one of these jobs, you made $80k/year. Now, those people are being told they have to do the same work today 10 years later for $32k/year or we'll ship your job overseas.

In my hometown, a local firm got busted by the INS for hiring undocumenteds, paying less than minimum wage, no bennies, no worker's comp, no nothing with a payroll of about 275 on the shop floor. This was a major autoparts supplier in the heart of Detroit, where the local unemployment is relatively high for a variety of reasons. As the INS buses back to old Mexico rolled out with 2/3 of the work force, instead of hiring legals at reasonable wages, the company folded and set up shop in Chihuahua, Mex. When news of the INS bust came out, hundreds of unemployed Americans lined up to fill out applications for "menial factory jobs." An interesting comment made by one of the company execs at his trial was, "Can you imagine what it would cost to buy that part if we had paid minimum wage?" The interesting thing about the part in question was it was sold for about the same price before it was being produced by illegals as it was by properly documented workers. The differences were in the management bonuses.

The exploitation of undocumenteds dates back a hundred years. Read about Cesaer Chavez and his efforts to form the United Farm Workers Union, read some of Steinbeck's novels describing the conditions of migrant and mostly undocumented farm workers.

The poor and defenseless will always be exploited by greedy and powerful people. Some of us will sacrifice a gallon of gas or two in income to help them out. Others will not. The only way to prevent this exploitation is to enforce our immigration laws, so that those entering this country don't a.) get screwed by the unscrupulous and b.) those who do enter the country have the qualities that do help make this country great and know the rights and responsibilities of being a resident in this country.

Those who cannot be admitted legally and do remain in countries like mexico or Canada will likely be exploited by their respective systems. Canadian refugees are flooding across our northern border in droves trying to get health care just like the Mexicans are. The difference is, Canadians expect to pay for their care when they get here. The Canadians are also victimized by their underfunded socialized medicine system, so they come here for their care, since their doctors fled Canada years ago.

 

[Leukocyte]

Is it ethical to report patients that are in the US illegally?

I'm interested in an ethical discussion. I'll state up front that I'm not a bleeding heart kind of doc willing to watch American medicine destroyed so we can be health care to the world.

Let the flames begin.

If you are interested in what is "ethical" as a physician then you have to go back to the Hippocratic Oath that I and you took when we entered medical school. You also have a duty as a physician to society, and respecting/protecting its laws and citizens.....

The way I see it....your reponsability is first to your patient, then to society.

So, If the act of reporting an illegal immigrant would MEDICALLY HARM your patient, then it is NOT ETHICAL to report him/her (at least while he/she is under your care). But if the act of reporting the illegal would not medically harm your patient, then your duty to society overides, and you then should report the illegal patient while MAKING SURE that his medical health will not suffer as a result.

 

[Poety]

get rid of all the illegals and build a wall between us and mexico. i'm sick of this. the illegals come here, reproduce like rats, and then drain our economy. and then i have to pay more and more taxes each year to support their children who were born in this country. and don't give me this crap that this country was built on illegal immigration...clearly you weren't paying attention in history class.

Did I say illegal? REREAD MY POST - and second, if you're main concern is immigration get into politics, medicine would be a waste of time for you.

And to all the people that want to "report" the illegals - go ahead, call immigration and tell them you have a law abiding illegal at your office that you want deported - I'm sure they'll RUSH RIGHT OVER! pulEASEEEEEEE

 

[flighterdoc]

Mexican physicians are better than American physicians because they are products of a morally superior third world country that is not tainted by the self important paternalism and decadence of capitalism. The only reason that the Mexican system can not deliver better care than the American system is that they are under the thumb of the imperialist jingoism of the United States. Ultimately the only way to bring true justice to the people of the third world is to completely socialize the entire economy of the US and redistribute all of that ill gotten wealth. The current administration and Halliburton are minions of Satan and must be tried in The Hague for war crimes and crimes against The World.

Kudos for typing that with a straight face.

 

[masterMood]

aren't we all illegals?

afterall, we committed genocide on the native americans, and stole their land.

 

[KluverBucy]

aren't we all illegals?

afterall, we committed genocide on the native americans, and stole their land.

therefore, we should just let anyone come to this country right? whoever wants to, is allowed in the US from now on, right? including terrorists and those who suck more than their fair share from law-abiding taxpayers, right? cuz since we took this land from the indians, not we should allow anyone that wants to take it away from us? wow, u seem like a true passivist.

but really, i have to agree that we all have committed genocide cuz humans actually evolved from primates/apes/fish/whatever you believe, and thus now we're taking over all their land. lets give the animals their land back!!

 

[3dtp]

aren't we all illegals?

afterall, we committed genocide on the native americans, and stole their land.

And they're winning it back at the casinos, little by little....

 

[masterMood]

therefore, we should just let anyone come to this country right? whoever wants to, is allowed in the US from now on, right? including terrorists and those who suck more than their fair share from law-abiding taxpayers, right? cuz since we took this land from the indians, not we should allow anyone that wants to take it away from us? wow, u seem like a true passivist.

i don't really see what your argument is. Are you saying that we had a right to kill off all the native americans and make this the US of A? We are "terrorists" (not in the literal sense) afterall, for we never had a right to this land.

Under the law yeah, they're "illegals" but the law is just really something that infringed on the rights of a previous "government." Doesn't have to do much with the topic, but just my two cents.

 

[penguins]

i don't really see what your argument is. Are you saying that we had a right to kill off all the native americans and make this the US of A? We are "terrorists" (not in the literal sense) afterall, for we never had a right to this land.

Under the law yeah, they're "illegals" but the law is just really something that infringed on the rights of a previous "government." Doesn't have to do much with the topic, but just my two cents.

Wow
Don't care for how you say "we", I don't think anyone who was part of that is still alive today. My people hadn't even landed yet.
You should move to another country

 

[docB]

Kudos for typing that with a straight face.

That's the great thing about the internet, I din't have to try to keep a straight face . The worst thing about the internet is that lots of people read that little rant and thought "Yeah, he's got some good points."

 

[masterMood]

Wow
Don't care for how you say "we", I don't think anyone who was part of that is still alive today. My people hadn't even landed yet.
You should move to another country

ahh okay so the white man was allowed to kill off the native americans. yes, this makes sense. i don't care if you didn't directly kill off the native americans or did 95% of the population. If you're saying that we're guiltfree and did nothing wrong, then we should give all the land back to the native americans if you want to be fair.

Here's an analogy:
You have a house. I kill you and take your house, and then I pass on the house to my kids and then their kids, and then they sell it to some other family. Now your great-grandkid or something wants his land back, but you're saying no, it's completely fine because a couple of generations later "we don't remember what happened."

Of course, this will never happen, but I'm saying that there is a lot of dirty history behind everything that has been made here.

And please, if you don't like what I say, lay off the childish redneck comments, and either stfu or provide a good argument. Have a good day

 

[penguins]

ahh okay so the white man was allowed to kill off the native americans. yes, this makes sense. i don't care if you didn't directly kill off the native americans or did 95% of the population. If you're saying that we're guiltfree and did nothing wrong, then we should give all the land back to the native americans if you want to be fair.

Here's an analogy:
You have a house. I kill you and take your house, and then I pass on the house to my kids and then their kids, and then they sell it to some other family. Now your great-grandkid or something wants his land back, but you're saying no, it's completely fine because a couple of generations later "we don't remember what happened."

Of course, this will never happen, but I'm saying that there is a lot of dirty history behind everything that has been made here.

And please, if you don't like what I say, lay off the childish redneck comments, and either stfu or provide a good argument. Have a good day

Can't believe I was just called a redneck. Wow. There is really no reason to provide a good arguement because you are just so off the wall.
If you really want to follow your logic, everyone is camped out illegally somewhere. Follow the historical roots of any civilization back far enough and they got it by killing off or driving out a group of people. If you follow your logic, follow it all the way.
My great grandchildren aren't responsible for what I do. Niether are your great grandchildren responsible for what you do. In your "analogy" my decendants wouldn't have a right to take away from your decendants just because you did something wrong.

 

[masterMood]

your logic doesn't make sense also.

You're saying that its alright to steal from others and not do anything about it. So during colonial and apartheid South Africa 90 percent of the land was reserved for white people. Now its being taken away from the white people and given back to the black people. Are you saying this is heinously wrong?

 

[3dtp]

your logic doesn't make sense also.

You're saying that its alright to steal from others and not do anything about it. So during colonial and apartheid South Africa 90 percent of the land was reserved for white people. Now its being taken away from the white people and given back to the black people. Are you saying this is heinously wrong?

I don't think that's what he is saying at all. I think, for civilized behaviour to work, there comes a time when we agree to a common set of rules which govern our behaviour. We arrived at these rules some 280 years ago as a nation. Giving birth comes with suffering, blood and pain. Then the process is over, and the newborn begins a slow and sometimes painful and bloody process to maturity. Our nation, like many others has experienced this. We have, as a nation made mistakes. Some can be corrected, some cannot. But as we have learned from the mistakes of our ancestors, we have set in place new rules that will prevent the same abuses. Two hundred years ago, we could have sailed into the Sudan, picked up a bunch of people, put 'em in irons and brought them to America and put them to work on a plantation picking cotton and growing tobacco (now we call this residency).

Somewhere around the middle of the nineteenth century, collectively we figured out that this was wrong, and put an end to it. Even so, it took nearly a hundred years of maturing to finish off the attitudes that said it was ok (at least I hope we've finished off most of those attitudes). We continue to mature as a country. Hopefully, we don't make the same mistakes, but in order to build as a society and mature, we must have a stable set of rules. That process was begun in the Magna Carta, and at least so far, has culminated in the American Constitution.

For nearly two hundred years, we've had immigration regulations, they have been to varying degrees enforced, and I think they should be enforced for the reason you put forth above. It isn't right to steal from others, it isn't right to break the rules of society that are in place, provided the power to make those rules are delegated to the government by the people who comprise the society. There comes a point when we must decide on a starting point and move on from there. We reached that point at the turn of the 20th century. Now we must decide what we stand for, and what we don't. I don't think you'd take it kindly if you were standing in line for a sell out ball game, tickets in hand and about to enter the stadium when someone crashes the line ahead of you, steals your tickets and watches the game, while you are locked out of the stadium.

 

[OUsooner]

"two wrongs don't make a right" - its much easier to say this after you have benefitted from the initial wrong

i love how when somebody bashes illegals they are automatically seen as "rednecks". guess what? my parents were immigrants and i have others close to me who are here on a LEGAL visa, waiting for citizenship. i am all about immigration (once again LEGAL).

i am also all about building a gigantic wall to prevent illegals (it would be built for cheap - all the rednecks would be happy to volunteer their time and efforts). and i'm not that dumb - i realize a big wall wouldnt do much, but u get the point

and to the mensa member above who said that nobody would be around to do the ****ty jobs if we kicked out illegals: if we got rid of the illegals we could allow LEGAL immigrants willing to do these same jobs (some of which, shockingly, will already be taken by US citizens)in the country i hate to bring up the "my dad" argument but the old man worked over 20 hours a day, 7 days a week in chicago when he came over here legally - something tells me there are people here willing to work (i'm admittedly not one of them).

 

[erkin777]

I find hans19's disregard for the law very questionable. Using extreme examples of poor laws does not excuse obeying the law. It appears he is promoting anarchy. I challenge hans19 to live for a year in a country without the rule of law. Then let's see if his opinion stays the same.

 

[penguins]

your logic doesn't make sense also.

You're saying that its alright to steal from others and not do anything about it. So during colonial and apartheid South Africa 90 percent of the land was reserved for white people. Now its being taken away from the white people and given back to the black people. Are you saying this is heinously wrong?

No. No. No. How did you arrive at that conclusion? Read more carefully.
It is never alright to steal from others "Thou shalt not steal"

There is no reason to punish the decendants for sins of the fathers. There comes a point where you just have to move on. Where do we draw the line? Some immigrants took from the Indians centuries ago. So now my tax dollars go to support them on their reservations, they don't pay taxes, get free tuition to college, etc. I am not even going to argue if this is good or bad. I am paying them "reperations" and my family wasn't even around back then. They were still in Sweden. But, even if they were, why should I have to pay for their mistakes? Besides there is no way to prove a lot of this. If your great-great-great grandfather was someone who fought for the Indians and gave them food and shelter, should YOU be exempt from helping them now?
I bet if you traced the history of South Africa back far enough, you will discover that some other group lived there at some point and they were forced out. I am not familiar with the scenario you are speaking of so I won't comment further on that situation.
You have got to move on. Next you will be saying that we should give each black person in America $40K per person to make up for the fact that some of them had grandfathers who were slaves.

Just to clarify... stealing is wrong.

 

[KluverBucy]

i don't really see what your argument is. Are you saying that we had a right to kill off all the native americans and make this the US of A? We are "terrorists" (not in the literal sense) afterall, for we never had a right to this land.

Under the law yeah, they're "illegals" but the law is just really something that infringed on the rights of a previous "government." Doesn't have to do much with the topic, but just my two cents.

you're not very bright. i understand that some white people took this land over from the indians. however, there's nothing that we can change about what happened...so don't give me that **** that if we let in a bunch of illegals, then everything will somehow be ok then.

and cut it with the semantics of what a "law" is. my point is simply this. by letting in illegals, we accomplish nothing beneficial for this country. regular, LEGAL immigrants will do the work that the illegals are doing now. how do i know this? cuz before the influx of illegals 20-30 yrs ago, this was the way it had always been. legal immigrants bust their a$$es in order to make a better life for their family. whether it be landscaping, cleaning houses, working in restaurants, etc. yes i am all about immigration...LEGAL that is. i have close friends and family that have come into this country (all legally of course) and they work so hard to make it. why should some slime ball run across the border and take away their jobs and opportunities in this country? it's a disservice to legal immigration, this economy, and this country as a whole. build a wall, let rednecks patrol the border, and keep them out as best as they can (given some sneaky ones will still get across). let them wait their turn like every other person from every other nation in this world that doesn't happen to border the U.S.

 

[Poety]

Ya, it was built on LEGAL immigration - my great grandparents came here legally.
While I am totally against illegal immigration and support the minutemen, I don't know that I should (as a physician) be reporting illegals. It isn't that I wouldn't want to but I think my obligation to them as a doc is more important than my obligation as a US citizen. I agree with the poster who talked about how it would prevent folks from getting care. The greater good - for healthcare purposes - might be served by not reporting them.
As a private citizen, however, I say report their a$$.

Arguements from both sides make a lot of compelling points regarding reporting as a physician.

We wouldn't have to worry about it if we would quit talking and start building that wall and start enforcing the laws we already have on the books!!!

Ironically, my husband and I have gone through HELL for his immigration status (and it continues, or should I say it never ends) and I still say to hell with it, let those illegals stay (BTW, he's from the UK, which is MUCH harder to immigrate from then say.... Mexico, go figure)

And I just want to address Kluver above: The U.S. doesn't "let in" illegals, if you enter this country ILLEGALLY YOU CAN NEVER IMMIGRATE HERE - EVER. In order to obtain status in this country YOU MUST HAVE ENTERED LEGALLY. I just wanted to clarify that since some people think the U.S. lets them walk on in, and that just isn't the case.

I do have a bleeding heart though, and if I lived in Mexico - hell I'd want to get out too, wouldn't you?

 

[KluverBucy]

And I just want to address Kluver above: The U.S. doesn't "let in" illegals, if you enter this country ILLEGALLY YOU CAN NEVER IMMIGRATE HERE - EVER. In order to obtain status in this country YOU MUST HAVE ENTERED LEGALLY. I just wanted to clarify that since some people think the U.S. lets them walk on in, and that just isn't the case.

I do have a bleeding heart though, and if I lived in Mexico - hell I'd want to get out too, wouldn't you?

the U.S. doesn't "let in" illegals? ok, well maybe they don't let them in as they attempt to cross border checkpoints, however, the border is wide open along most of its length and i've seen many instances where they just walk up to ranches in TX unscathed. is that "let in" or not? hence the formation of the minutemen. i'd say allocate more resources to a physical barrier and border patrol officers.

with respect to living in Mexico... you're right, but what about people in Africa who have it MUCH worse than the Mexicans? what would your bleeding heart say about that? see, i have sympathy for people, no matter the impression that you may have of me now. however, we can't help everyone! so why not just have a system that works harder to control illegal immigration, and that allows people from all walks of life a legitimate path into the U.S.? you can't just say, well since their life in Mexico sucks, then i'm not going to worry about it. the impression that i have is that most Americans are passive like this, so it's no wonder we're in such a predicament.

 

[Poety]

the U.S. doesn't "let in" illegals? ok, well maybe they don't let them in as they attempt to cross border checkpoints, however, the border is wide open along most of its length and i've seen many instances where they just walk up to ranches in TX unscathed. is that "let in" or not? hence the formation of the minutemen. i'd say allocate more resources to a physical barrier and border patrol officers.

with respect to living in Mexico... you're right, but what about people in Africa who have it MUCH worse than the Mexicans? what would your bleeding heart say about that? see, i have sympathy for people, no matter the impression that you may have of me now. however, we can't help everyone! so why not just have a system that works harder to control illegal immigration, and that allows people from all walks of life a legitimate path into the U.S.? you can't just say, well since their life in Mexico sucks, then i'm not going to worry about it. the impression that i have is that most Americans are passive like this, so it's no wonder we're in such a predicament.

I see your points, and perhaps my idea is skewed by what I've seen in Mexico. And ofcourse, I do think there are people in other countries much worse off (take for instance the Phillipines, Africa as you said, etc) and here again, I would say let them in too. I'm not the most politically savvy here, I just go by what I view as right. There definitely is a strain on the economy in some aspects, but when I see the labor trade around here, and I realize how the economy (at least in housing) is booming because of illegals, it makes me wonder if their present isn't a good thing. Does that make sense? What I'm saying is, Joe Schmoe who owns a company and employs his 4 illegals that he pays a lot less (but that DO pay taxes because those that don't aren't giving back..)than American X who would require double - does in fact offer that discount to the customer - so it really that bad? Cheap labor = cheaper costs for the consumer, which may be naive in my broke mindset but I like the savings.

 

[Psyclops]

I think everyone is missing the point. The concern shouldn't be about walls, what the cutoff year should be when people can or can not be considered elligible for citizenship, or what the effect is on the american economy. We should be focusing our efforts to make proactive changes that would help latin american countries develop sustainable economies. One, it would solve massive influx of people crossing the boarder at a great risk to their lives, and two, it would engender greater support and ndermine politicos like Hugo Chavez which are our constant detractors. Plus we owe it to them after what we did in the 80's.

 

[Poety]

I think everyone is missing the point. The concern shouldn't be about walls, what the cutoff year should be when people can or can not be considered elligible for citizenship, or what the effect is on the american economy. We should be focusing our efforts to make proactive changes that would help latin american countries develop sustainable economies. One, it would solve massive influx of people crossing the boarder at a great risk to their lives, and two, it would engender greater support and ndermine politicos like Hugo Chavez which are our constant detractors. Plus we owe it to them after what we did in the 80's.

I'm not sure we should be so proactive in making changes in other countries.... look at Iraq

 

[Psyclops]

Good point. I don't mean that kind of proactive, god no. I meant encouraging, promoting, and enabling education and grwth of homegrown industries. Stuff like that. We had our Iraq moments through the 80s, think of how we installed Pinochet and others like him.

 

[antmon]

No. No. No. How did you arrive at that conclusion? Read more carefully.
It is never alright to steal from others "Thou shalt not steal"

There is no reason to punish the decendants for sins of the fathers. There comes a point where you just have to move on. Where do we draw the line? Some immigrants took from the Indians centuries ago. So now my tax dollars go to support them on their reservations, they don't pay taxes, get free tuition to college, etc. I am not even going to argue if this is good or bad. I am paying them "reperations" and my family wasn't even around back then. They were still in Sweden. But, even if they were, why should I have to pay for their mistakes? Besides there is no way to prove a lot of this. If your great-great-great grandfather was someone who fought for the Indians and gave them food and shelter, should YOU be exempt from helping them now?
I bet if you traced the history of South Africa back far enough, you will discover that some other group lived there at some point and they were forced out. I am not familiar with the scenario you are speaking of so I won't comment further on that situation.
You have got to move on. Next you will be saying that we should give each black person in America $40K per person to make up for the fact that some of them had grandfathers who were slaves.

Just to clarify... stealing is wrong.

From all black people everywhere blow me; and what the hell does tax breaks for a nearly extinct race have to do with immigration anyway? People like you turn my stomach

Illegal immigration is called illegal for a reason. Just because these people come from a bad situation does not give them the right to come to this country by any means necessary, however now that there here it would be inhuman to up root them from the lives and families they have built. There are no easy solutions to this issue, but a good start is to identify who these people are and doctors reporting them would do the job.

 

[3dtp]

I see your points, and perhaps my idea is skewed by what I've seen in Mexico. And ofcourse, I do think there are people in other countries much worse off (take for instance the Phillipines, Africa as you said, etc) and here again, I would say let them in too. I'm not the most politically savvy here, I just go by what I view as right. There definitely is a strain on the economy in some aspects, but when I see the labor trade around here, and I realize how the economy (at least in housing) is booming because of illegals, it makes me wonder if their present isn't a good thing. Does that make sense? What I'm saying is, Joe Schmoe who owns a company and employs his 4 illegals that he pays a lot less (but that DO pay taxes because those that don't aren't giving back..)than American X who would require double - does in fact offer that discount to the customer - so it really that bad? Cheap labor = cheaper costs for the consumer, which may be naive in my broke mindset but I like the savings.

Dear Poety,

Do you really think they (the undocumented workers) that Schmoe pays pays taxes? They are likely paid in cash or directly by check, that they take to the local check cashing store and are charged a hefty fee to cash the check. Joe saves in a myriad of ways. No SSN, no 7.5% employer wage tax, no federal withholding tax, no state withholding tax, and no w-2 forms. The workers? They don't have a SSN, nothing's withheld and if they are undocumented, do you think they'd really call up the IRS and say, give me a 1040 so I can file a tax return just to let you know I'm here?

As for discounts. I used to buy Dexter shoes. They were made in America, by Americans. High quality leather (sorry PETA folks, I eat meat too), Suddenly, all the Dexter shoe factory stores disappeared. I finally found a shoe store that had them, and lo and behold they were made in China. I bought. The shoelaces (which before outlasted the shoes) broke shortly after I bought them, the soles wore much more quickly than the last pair and the leather developed stretch blems reflective of bottom grain horsehide. I saw a commercial advertising these shoes and the VP being interviewed boasted that by the labor-savings in China he could sell his shoe for about $75. His question to the reporter was can you imagine what that shoe would cost if we made it in America and had to pay us wages? Funny, but I did buy that shoe when it was made in America, lasted twice as long and was more comfortable 3 years ago, and paid $65 for it. So...where is the $$$ going?

I can't for the life of me understand why we're supporting an oppressive and openly hostile communist country like China and we can't do the same or better for the latin nations to our south. If we must support a country like China, then why not Cuba as well?

I think the idea of working to improve the economies in our back yard and those countries that respect our copyright and patent laws would be very helpful. By the way, when I was last in old Mexico, I was stunned to see a Sams Club there. And a Kmart. And they were filled with people who likely did not speak a word of English. Not all Mexicans are impoverished, destined to sneak into the US to be ripped off by unscrupulous businesses who are also ripping us off too. On the internet today, the news is that a German company IFCO was busted by the INS for hiring undocumenteds. They're in the jail house now. (The managers who hired 'em.) http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/st...03&idq=/ff/story/0001/20060419/1812624132.htm

 

[KluverBucy]

Dear Poety,

Do you really think they (the undocumented workers) that Schmoe pays pays taxes? They are likely paid in cash or directly by check, that they take to the local check cashing store and are charged a hefty fee to cash the check. Joe saves in a myriad of ways.

On the internet today, the news is that a German company IFCO was busted by the INS for hiring undocumenteds. They're in the jail house now. (The managers who hired 'em.) http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/st...03&idq=/ff/story/0001/20060419/1812624132.htm

first off, i was going to outline the fact that they DON'T pay taxes as illegal immigrants, but you quite nicely did that already. and by the way, if you don't think LEGAL immigrants would do the jobs that illegals are doing now, then you're wrong. but i don't want to get into that...already mentioned it in a previous post, and i belive OUsooner mentioned it too on the last page.

with respect to that German company...that's hilarious.

 

[Poety]

first off, i was going to outline the fact that they DON'T pay taxes as illegal immigrants, but you quite nicely did that already. and by the way, if you don't think LEGAL immigrants would do the jobs that illegals are doing now, then you're wrong. but i don't want to get into that...already mentioned it in a previous post, and i belive OUsooner mentioned it too on the last page.

with respect to that German company...that's hilarious.

Oh, they had a big march recently and I was under the impression they payed taxes? My mistake. They were all carrying these signs saying "WE PAY TAXES" ack, how would I know though I guess.

I've only seen the discount in the housing/building/hard labor industry btw, never in retail.

Penguins! I just read your post

ETA: Wal-Mart has maintained that top executives did not know that cleaning contractors were hiring illegal immigrants, who sometimes slept in the backs of stores. An ICE affidavit unsealed as part of that case, however, asserted that two executives were aware of the practice this is from that clip, now thats just sad when all they had to do was SPONSOR them to become legal - like WalMart couldn't afford it or something YUCK.

 

[penguins]

From all black people everywhere blow me; and what the hell does tax breaks for a nearly extinct race have to do with immigration anyway? People like you turn my stomach

Illegal immigration is called illegal for a reason. Just because these people come from a bad situation does not give them the right to come to this country by any means necessary, however now that there here it would be inhuman to up root them from the lives and families they have built. There are no easy solutions to this issue, but a good start is to identify who these people are and doctors reporting them would do the job.

I think you need to read my post and the post I was responding to again.

Poety, what is wrong with my post?

 

[Poety]

I think you need to read my post and the post I was responding to again.

Poety, what is wrong with my post?

I think some people might see things differently regarding some of the ideas you stated about oppression that's continued on from history? I'm SO not touching that one I commend your kahunies for posting it though

I just re-read one of my other posts, about that walmart thing too - I take part of that back, Walmart can't sponsor an illegal immigrant that came here without a pass, since you can never get citizenship unless you entered the country legally. woops!

 

[Ceez]

From all black people everywhere blow me; and what the hell does tax breaks for a nearly extinct race have to do with immigration anyway? People like you turn my stomach

Illegal immigration is called illegal for a reason. Just because these people come from a bad situation does not give them the right to come to this country by any means necessary, however now that there here it would be inhuman to up root them from the lives and families they have built. There are no easy solutions to this issue, but a good start is to identify who these people are and doctors reporting them would do the job.

wow.

 

[penguins]

I think some people might see things differently regarding some of the ideas you stated about oppression that's continued on from history? I'm SO not touching that one I commend your kahunies for posting it though

I just re-read one of my other posts, about that walmart thing too - I take part of that back, Walmart can't sponsor an illegal immigrant that came here without a pass, since you can never get citizenship unless you entered the country legally. woops!

Oh, I didn't see it that way. To clarify, I am certainly not saying the oppression is good or is in any way acceptable. It is totally wrong and unjustified. That MasterMood guy was saying that because of what we did to the American Indians many years ago, we had no right to say people couldn't come into this country any way they want because we are all here illegally.
I meant to say that because someone did something bad in the past, doesn't justify policy now.
Because each society has dark things in their past they should be ashamed of and they happened in the past, there comes a point at which you just have to move on, otherwise it is a never ending blame game and promotes animosity and resentment.
We should learn from out mistakes as a people and as Americans, but living in the past doesn't help either. I disagree with MasterMood strongly, in that I do not believe that people should have to pay for the sins of their great grandfathers especially since there is no way to prove who helped and who hurt.

 

[Poety]

Oh, I didn't see it that way. To clarify, I am certainly not saying the oppression is good or is in any way acceptable. It is totally wrong and unjustified. That MasterMood guy was saying that because of what we did to the American Indians many years ago, we had no right to say people couldn't come into this country any way they want because we are all here illegally.
I meant to say that because someone did something bad in the past, doesn't justify policy now.
Because each society has dark things in their past they should be ashamed of and they happened in the past, there comes a point at which you just have to move on, otherwise it is a never ending blame game and promotes animosity and resentment.
We should learn from out mistakes as a people and as Americans, but living in the past doesn't help either. I disagree with MasterMood strongly, in that I do not believe that people should have to pay for the sins of their great grandfathers especially since there is no way to prove who helped and who hurt.

Clarified quite well!