Epidurals vs. Ultrasound

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Louisville04

Junior Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2005
Messages
319
Reaction score
4
If you had to chose between training in basic interventional spine procedures (lumbar interlaminar epidurals, facet joint injections, SI joint injections, etc) versus ultrasound guided injections, which would you pick? Which do you think would be more beneficial for the long run? I see a lot of doom and gloom comments on the pain medicine forum about reimbursement for procedures. I have recently seen similar comments for ultrasound. I have read about how IDET was supposed to be the next great procedure but fizzled out.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Its easy to learn both. Currently most people learn fluoro first and then may decide to take some courses and learn ultrasound. No one can predict the future of healthcare so its best to remain flexible.
 
If you had to chose between training in basic interventional spine procedures (lumbar interlaminar epidurals, facet joint injections, SI joint injections, etc) versus ultrasound guided injections, which would you pick? Which do you think would be more beneficial for the long run? I see a lot of doom and gloom comments on the pain medicine forum about reimbursement for procedures. I have recently seen similar comments for ultrasound. I have read about how IDET was supposed to be the next great procedure but fizzled out.

It's relatively easy to learn and perform the basic lumbar interventional spine procedures you listed. Learning and safely performing more advanced interventional procedures (particularly cervical/thoracic procedures) are best done through fellowship training.

That said, I think basic lumbar interventional procedures as well as MSK ultrasound & MSK ultrasound guided procedures are well within the purvue of any physiatrist. I know quite a few PM&R docs who do both. It does give you flexibility if reimbursement for one or the other takes a major hit.

More importantly is what you enjoy. If you enjoy both, do both for the flexibility, but reimbursement for either could take a big hit in the future, so as always follow your heart if if you only have time to learn one or the other.

If I was looking at things solely from a financial standpoint, as physiatrist, the most reliable to increase your revenue is to do a lot of outpatient EMGs. EMGs are much less of a target for reimbursement cuts than ultrasound or interventional spine procedures, and pay very well if you're efficient.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I think once the $200 for using the US machine fee goes down or becomes bundled, it will end the brief torrid love affair with the device.

It will be useful for complicated knees, but never for spine. I played with one recently and was looking at my median nerve 3mm under the skin. I realized it would be impossible to miss using textbook technique for CTS injection. In the recent study in PMR Journal, US was useful for inexperienced injectionists, but once they learned technique- 100% of residents and attendings had intra-articular placement blind. This proves that the US is a good training tool, but may not be needed in clinical practice. I think we will find lots of useful procedures for US, but they will dissipate once reimbursement goes bye-bye.
 
and the same can be said with fluoro. fluoro guidance is getting bundled into every spine procedure code and rvu's keep getting cut for the procedures.
EMG is not a safety net either, PCP's in my town are using automated EMG machines trying to keep that business for themselves.
Other specialists going well outside their training: podiatrists using ultrasound and lasers, ER doing laser lipo...
 
I think once the $200 for using the US machine fee goes down or becomes bundled, it will end the brief torrid love affair with the device.

It will be useful for complicated knees, but never for spine. I played with one recently and was looking at my median nerve 3mm under the skin. I realized it would be impossible to miss using textbook technique for CTS injection. In the recent study in PMR Journal, US was useful for inexperienced injectionists, but once they learned technique- 100% of residents and attendings had intra-articular placement blind. This proves that the US is a good training tool, but may not be needed in clinical practice. I think we will find lots of useful procedures for US, but they will dissipate once reimbursement goes bye-bye.
interesting POV. Using Carpal Tunnels as an example, I have been injecting Carpal tunnels for years blind. Then, when I got my US machine, I scanned my own L wrist. I found that I have a Median Artery. If I had been the one injecting myself, I stood the risk of severe injury. I will never inject another wrist blind again. When I discussed that with a neurosurgeon friend of mine, he replied "that is why I never did those injections, I know what is in there". Since I got the machine, he is sending me wrists to inject. He never before sent me a single patient for conservative CT care in the 9 yrs I've been in this town, despite being his go-to electromyographer.

U/S is far easier to learn than interventional spine if you know your anatomy. I have learned both, and gave up the spine injections for political reasons (to concentrate on EMG).
 
If I was looking at things solely from a financial standpoint, as physiatrist, the most reliable to increase your revenue is to do a lot of outpatient EMGs. EMGs are much less of a target for reimbursement cuts than ultrasound or interventional spine procedures, and pay very well if you're efficient.

In case you haven't noticed, they are starting to bundle our EMG/NCS codes in 2012. No cut YET, but you know that they will come.
 
The best advice I have got so far is to diversify.My advice for most residents is to keep up to date with the latest procedures(PRP, prolo, Botox for headaches), ultrasound guided injections, accupuncture, fluro guided injection etc while being open to doing subacute/inpatient rehab. Investing carefully and marketing yourself will ensure a stable future.
 
Thanks for the responses. I work in the VA and recently transferred to a larger facility where the physiatrists do epidurals and are willing to teach me. They don’t use ultrasound, but have access to a machine and want to learn.

Bedrock said, “It's relatively easy to learn and perform the basic lumbar interventional spine procedures you listed.” While RUOkie said, “U/S is far easier to learn than interventional spine if you know your anatomy. I have learned both, and gave up the spine injections for political reasons (to concentrate on EMG).”

Wouldn’t interventional spine be the harder/riskier due to the adverse effects from doing it improperly?
 
Thanks for the responses. I work in the VA and recently transferred to a larger facility where the physiatrists do epidurals and are willing to teach me. They don’t use ultrasound, but have access to a machine and want to learn.

Bedrock said, “It's relatively easy to learn and perform the basic lumbar interventional spine procedures you listed.” While RUOkie said, “U/S is far easier to learn than interventional spine if you know your anatomy. I have learned both, and gave up the spine injections for political reasons (to concentrate on EMG).”

Wouldn’t interventional spine be the harder/riskier due to the adverse effects from doing it improperly?

ESI whether IL or TF and C/T/L are all "easy" to learn the technique. Doing it safely is knowing what bad stuff can happen and being able to handle it. Lumbar ILESI and even TFESI should be the first thing to learn.

With fluoro, anatomy is easy to see. With US, it takes a completely different view. It has a much steeper learning curve. You mess around with one, then take a course, then go back and forget most of what they taugfht you, learn it back over a year, take another course, learn some more, etc.

With fluoro and contrast, it is easy to see if you are your target. With US it is much easier to be fooled.

With nudling, lowering of payments, its impossible to predict what will happen, but likely US will take the biggest hit. It's rise in popularity in MSK is meteoric, and CMS has taken notice.
 
I think once the $200 for using the US machine fee goes down or becomes bundled, it will end the brief torrid love affair with the device.

It will be useful for complicated knees, but never for spine. I played with one recently and was looking at my median nerve 3mm under the skin. I realized it would be impossible to miss using textbook technique for CTS injection. In the recent study in PMR Journal, US was useful for inexperienced injectionists, but once they learned technique- 100% of residents and attendings had intra-articular placement blind. This proves that the US is a good training tool, but may not be needed in clinical practice. I think we will find lots of useful procedures for US, but they will dissipate once reimbursement goes bye-bye.
Steve,

To play devil's advocate: Don't you think that the hallmark of *specialty* care is documenting a successful injection with some form of imaging? You can't always trust the skill or technique of the last person a patient saw. I've had a lot patients claim that they got no relief from a trochanteric bursa injection done by a PCP only later to discover that the PCP was using a 1.5 inch needle! I do an appropriate GT bursa injection with US guidance and viola, better.

I know what you're saying about US, but it's sort of like anesthesiologists saying that fluoro for interlam ESI's wasn't necessary in the early 1990's. A lot of useless MSK injections get done these days, but because few result in permanent impairment or harm (unlike neuraxial procedures) no one cares.

I think that as a pain SPECIALIST I offer my patients better care using some form of image guidance even for "easy" injections. If you're looking for a bonafide pain generator and want to confirm with high specifity that you put the medicine where you said you did, some form of image guidance makes sense to me.
 
Steve,

To play devil's advocate: Don't you think that the hallmark of *specialty* care is documenting a successful injection with some form of imaging? You can't always trust the skill or technique of the last person a patient saw. I've had a lot patients claim that they got no relief from a trochanteric bursa injection done by a PCP only later to discover that the PCP was using a 1.5 inch needle! I do an appropriate GT bursa injection with US guidance and viola, better.

I know what you're saying about US, but it's sort of like anesthesiologists saying that fluoro for interlam ESI's wasn't necessary in the early 1990's. A lot of useless MSK injections get done these days, but because few result in permanent impairment or harm (unlike neuraxial procedures) no one cares.

I think that as a pain SPECIALIST I offer my patients better care using some form of image guidance even for "easy" injections. If you're looking for a bonafide pain generator and want to confirm with high specifity that you put the medicine where you said you did, some form of image guidance makes sense to me.

I agre completely. And playing devil's advocate big brother- then you should not be paid any more to do it the right way. We will consider paying even less for doing it the wrong way. Bundled /closed.

And that's the way the cookie crumbles.
 
right way is also debatable. I see interventionalists using fluoro for troch, glenohumeral, piriformis, retrocalcaneal injections, etc.
If I wanted to irradiate the crap out of myself I could do all those but US is superior.
So should they get fluoro guidance as a separate billable code while us is bundled?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
right way is also debatable. I see interventionalists using fluoro for troch, glenohumeral, piriformis, retrocalcaneal injections, etc.
If I wanted to irradiate the crap out of myself I could do all those but US is superior.
So should they get fluoro guidance as a separate billable code while us is bundled?

Nope. Imaging should be bundled with all spinal procedures, hips, and SIJ.
No matter if CT, Fluoro, or US.

Imaging for other injections should get cut to the point that it pays for the machine but is not a "profit center".

We have pain docs using US for trigger point injections. What BS.

I'm sure 5 of us could get together and make a list of the handful os good uses for US for IM and joint injections. I believe US for spine is always wrong- facets/SIJ/ESI.

Here is my list for US: Pre-op regional anesthesia, posterior tib, piriformis.

For shoulders- blind vs US guided would be useful study (and needs outcome measures to show a clinical difference), for knees and hips - same.
 
I think once the $200 for using the US machine fee goes down or becomes bundled, it will end the brief torrid love affair with the device.

It will be useful for complicated knees, but never for spine. I played with one recently and was looking at my median nerve 3mm under the skin. I realized it would be impossible to miss using textbook technique for CTS injection. In the recent study in PMR Journal, US was useful for inexperienced injectionists, but once they learned technique- 100% of residents and attendings had intra-articular placement blind. This proves that the US is a good training tool, but may not be needed in clinical practice. I think we will find lots of useful procedures for US, but they will dissipate once reimbursement goes bye-bye.

Steve,

I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. US may provide an important role in spine care in the future too. While fluoro currently remains the gold standard, US may be used in cases where fluoro is contraindicated or just not feasible, such as in pregnant patients or where access to fluoro is not possible. Admittedly, they're not nearly as easy to learn to do as other US procedures, and it pays to have a strong foundation and lots of prior US experience before attempting (See: http://www.springerlink.com/content/j763436lqk094032/fulltext.pdf). You need to use a transducer with a lower frequency, at the expense of higher resolution, which only makes it more difficult. Here's a fairly recent article for more on the subject:
http://journals.lww.com/anesthesiol...px?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook

Several months ago, I had a 95 year old patient come to see me with scoliosis and severe spinal stenosis. Poor woman was in so much pain she couldn't even get up on the fluoro table despite all our best efforts, and wouldn't have been able to lie prone even had she been able to get on the table. I had her sit up as best she could, and performed US-guided facet blocks. Worked quite well. Can't say 100%, but with a spine like hers I wasn't expecting complete resolution. She did well enough though, that the next time she came in she was able to undergo fluoro-guided injections without much difficulty. (Btw, although this was probably one of the more difficult and time consuming procedures I've had to do in a while, I basically got reimbursed nothing, as the procedure code is still experimental. Knowing this before performing the injections, I looked at it as my good deed for the day.)

It is also my belief that any invasive thoracic procedure warrants US use so as to avoid pneumothorax. Can't tell you how many stories I've heard about pneumos occurring from simple trigger point injections. (It's like the 6-degrees of complications: Even if you don't know someone directly who's had this complication, you can get there within 6 degrees or less.)

My experience has been all too similar to drusso's. Patients have had several injections by other practicioners without guidance to little avail. Done by me under US, it's a whole different story. Placebo? Don't know. But I do know that I'm sticking with what works.
 
Bundling of what EMG/NCS codes are you referring to?
This is from AANEM
CPT Codes Changes to be Effective January 1

As reported in the May 2011 AANEM News (p. 17, 18), since early 2010 the AANEM has been working with the CPT Editorial Panel on EMG and NCS codes since early 2010. The CPT Panel had argued that a duplication of effort existed when both EMG and NCS were billed and insisted that the AANEM, AAN, and AAPMR propose new codes to address this situation.

The Editorial Panel required the groups to create a new set of codes for 2012 as an interim step to a future code set that will further bundle EMG and NCS codes beginning in 2013. The AANEM was under a confidentiality agreement until recently about the 2012 change and is still under a confidentiality agreement regarding the 2013 changes. The new interim codes were briefly presented in the November 2011 AANEM News (p 14).

It is important that you update your billing forms/systems before year end to ensure claims sent after January 1, 2012, are billed correctly. Claims not billed correctly will be denied. EMG studies performed the same day as nerve conduction studies must now be reported by these new codes:

* 95885: Needle electromyography, each extremity, with related paraspinal areas, when performed, done with nerve conduction, amplitude and latency/velocity study; limited (list separately in addition to the code for primary procedure).
* 95886: Needle electromyography, each extremity, with related paraspinal areas, when performed, done with nerve conduction, amplitude and latency/velocity study; complete, five or more muscles studied, innervated by three or more nerves or four or more spinal levels (list separately in addition to the code for primary procedure).
* 95887: Needle electromyography, non-extremity (cranial nerve supplied or axial) muscle(s) done with nerve conduction, amplitude and latency/velocity study; (list separately in addition to the code for primary procedure).

Limited EMGs are those that test less than five muscles.

The parenthetical language stating "(list separately in addition to the code for primary procedure)" is a prompt to remind physicians to also report a nerve conduction code with these EMG codes.

Depending on the number of extremities tested and the type of testing performed, you may bill up to a quantity of 4 for either 95885 or 95886. Remember:

* Use these codes in conjunction with NCS codes 95900-95904.
* Do not report these codes with 95905.
* Do not report these codes in conjunction with existing EMG codes 95860-95864, 95867-95870.

If you do not perform NCS the same day as EMG, you may report the existing EMG codes 95860-95864, 95867-95870.

The AANEM believes that these changes will not negatively impact your practice based on the new work values assigned to these codes. Please contact [email protected] with questions. For more information, visit ww.aanem.org
 
This is from AANEM
CPT Codes Changes to be Effective January 1

As reported in the May 2011 AANEM News (p. 17, 18), since early 2010 the AANEM has been working with the CPT Editorial Panel on EMG and NCS codes since early 2010. The CPT Panel had argued that a duplication of effort existed when both EMG and NCS were billed and insisted that the AANEM, AAN, and AAPMR propose new codes to address this situation.

The Editorial Panel required the groups to create a new set of codes for 2012 as an interim step to a future code set that will further bundle EMG and NCS codes beginning in 2013. The AANEM was under a confidentiality agreement until recently about the 2012 change and is still under a confidentiality agreement regarding the 2013 changes. The new interim codes were briefly presented in the November 2011 AANEM News (p 14).

It is important that you update your billing forms/systems before year end to ensure claims sent after January 1, 2012, are billed correctly. Claims not billed correctly will be denied. EMG studies performed the same day as nerve conduction studies must now be reported by these new codes:

* 95885: Needle electromyography, each extremity, with related paraspinal areas, when performed, done with nerve conduction, amplitude and latency/velocity study; limited (list separately in addition to the code for primary procedure).
* 95886: Needle electromyography, each extremity, with related paraspinal areas, when performed, done with nerve conduction, amplitude and latency/velocity study; complete, five or more muscles studied, innervated by three or more nerves or four or more spinal levels (list separately in addition to the code for primary procedure).
* 95887: Needle electromyography, non-extremity (cranial nerve supplied or axial) muscle(s) done with nerve conduction, amplitude and latency/velocity study; (list separately in addition to the code for primary procedure).

Limited EMGs are those that test less than five muscles.

The parenthetical language stating "(list separately in addition to the code for primary procedure)" is a prompt to remind physicians to also report a nerve conduction code with these EMG codes.

Depending on the number of extremities tested and the type of testing performed, you may bill up to a quantity of 4 for either 95885 or 95886. Remember:

* Use these codes in conjunction with NCS codes 95900-95904.
* Do not report these codes with 95905.
* Do not report these codes in conjunction with existing EMG codes 95860-95864, 95867-95870.

If you do not perform NCS the same day as EMG, you may report the existing EMG codes 95860-95864, 95867-95870.

The AANEM believes that these changes will not negatively impact your practice based on the new work values assigned to these codes. Please contact [email protected] with questions. For more information, visit ww.aanem.org

This really, f'in blows.
 
I believe it is in response to the ahole PCP and DC's that were doing NCV's on everyone with pain or DM to strip the insurance. Most will not do the needle and then the problem goes away.

I'm not sure.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't understand the language to mean that you can't bill NCV without a needle exam
 
Can you explain why this "blows"

Every time something is "bundled" payment invariably goes down. AANEM says it does not expect any impact on practices. BS. EMGs will pay less. Same work, less money. If not 2012, then certainly 2013.
 
Every time something is "bundled" payment invariably goes down. AANEM says it does not expect any impact on practices. BS. EMGs will pay less. Same work, less money. If not 2012, then certainly 2013.
correct

If you read it carefully, they are under a confidentiality agreement for 2013. That is when the hammer will drop.:mad:
 
correct

If you read it carefully, they are under a confidentiality agreement for 2013. That is when the hammer will drop.:mad:

Frustrating, that everything is getting hammered----

I do interventional pain, some sports including MSK US, as well as EMGs. It now looks like all three are taking a financial hit in the next couple years.

I'm still pissed after recently finding out that they're bundling the RF codes next year which is going to decrease reimbursement by about 40%.

Pain has taken a big financial hit the last few years with the facet injection/medial branch block codes being bundled (and thus reduced) in 2009, the transforaminal epidural codes being bundled and reduced in 2011,
and now the sacroiliac joint injection and also the spine radiofrequency ablation codes will be bundled and reduced for 2012.
 
Last edited:
Top