I have a just below a 90% average and have taken all science classes except for biology. I figured a few years ago that I would settle with mechanical engineering since I like working on cars and enjoy math and science. I want a career in sciences 100%. However, deep down I would love to be a doctor. I've spoken to two doctors who said I should choose engineering. I don't want people saying follow your heart and stuff like that. Money isn't an issue since both professions pay way above average. I'm scared that if I choose medicine, I'll take the 4 years of sciences than wont be accepted to med school. I only say that because in my school alone there is about 1000 people with a 95% average all wanting to go to medicine. So realistically, I don't think I'll make it compared to those smarter. I know someone who went into sciences and did not get accepted to dental school so now they're taking another major. Any thoughts?
Engineering or medicine
- Thread starter Pawsagad
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Medicine:
- curing the sick
- much better pay
- more prestige
- longer hours
- more stress
- more debt
- rising tuition
Engineering:
- shorter school time
- regular hours and less stress
- enjoyable for physics lovers
- lower income ceiling
- underpaid if you're really good
- no special prestige
- curing the sick
- much better pay
- more prestige
- longer hours
- more stress
- more debt
- rising tuition
Engineering:
- shorter school time
- regular hours and less stress
- enjoyable for physics lovers
- lower income ceiling
- underpaid if you're really good
- no special prestige
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Afraid you won't make it is a really bad way to decide. Fear of failure creates an impediment that may not have existed.
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Meh,
These are all very superficial. Pay isn't so good when you factor in the time value of money (you won't start earning much until at least a decade after college graduation), the amount of debt you'll incur and declining reimbursements. Probably ends up a wash. Prestige is mostly something in your own head -- patients don't hold you on a pedestal like they did back in Norman Rockwell days. And much of the time you don't cure the sick although you might postpone the inevitable.
Only go this route if you think you'd enjoy it. Have some tangible experiences you can point to as to why, by the time you apply. In college do some shadowing and volunteering so you can see what you are getting yourself into -- it isn't (or shouldn't be) often just about curing the sick for high pay and prestige.
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If your goal is just money you can make a lot in medicine if you optimize everything correctly. You don't have such an option in engineering. And medicine is the only profession that has some prestige left... dentists/lawyers etc have little to none left.
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Sorry but when you get further along in your training you'll see that the prestige is modest at best. If that matters to you, you won't find what you are hoping for.
And you won't be able to justify medicine for money because any field where you have to wait a decade to start earning, while borrowing six digits, means you are playing catch up until you are gray. Has nothing to do with "optimizing" -- you won't really make your tuition any cheaper or residency shorter.
Engineering isn't the worlds most lucrative job but you can get your doctorate with a stipend rather than debt and start earning income right after school. So at least until late middle age you'll be way ahead.
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I know how the prestige is lol. I got more prestige from my athletic career so it's personally irrelevant. The chicks and bros won't care all that much beyond a modest level (like you said).
However... medicine is by far the best field to go into for money. Only thing on par is dentistry and that's literally it.
Engineers need to be lucky to make 100k/year. There aren't even that many jobs. And a phd = lecturer or assistant prof at best. If your work is good you'll make 140k when you're in your late 40s.
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One of the more clueless posts on SDN this week -- you are arguing with someone who will be unlikely to ever exceed where he'd be if he didn't switch to medicine. The time value of money is huge. Much bigger than you appreciate. Six digits next year is worth a ton more than six digits a decade from now. And that's ignoring raises, bonuses etc you might get along the way -- big loss of opportunity costs in medicine too. Anyone sane would not pick this field for the money. Few fields make you put off the bulk of your earnings for so many years and few educational paths involve this much debt. And most millionaires you'll meet aren't even professionals anyhow. Your high school buddy who opens a popular pizza joint may exceed your doctors lifetime income pretty handily.
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Isn't the overall end net worth of a physician career considerably higher than engi even with the debt and long wait to get to the $?
And most people who open their own businesses fail, especially restaurants...maybe the guarantee of 100k next year > 200k starting in ten, but the guarantee of 200k starting in ten >> high chance of bankruptcy or forever barely breaking even...
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First, the "overall end net worth" has to be looked at in terms of net present value. You can't just sum up lifelong earnings and say "look it's more" because if you earn more money at the front if your career that's actually more valuable than earning more later on. Finance majors make a lot of money exploiting people who don't understand the "time value of money". $1 today is worth a lot more than $1 a decade from now. Will a doctor ultimately overtake an engineer? Probably, but in real financial worth it's by less than you think.
Second, yes most businesses fail, but there's always more risk with investments with more upside. But if the goal is to maximize wealth, a little more risk probably trumps a few more years in the library. As mentioned professionals are a relatively small percentage of the upper class in this country, and business owners are the bulk. The guys running successful pizza places (very high profit margin), lawn care services, etc potentially can bring in six digits a year with just a high school education, and that's six digits a full 12-15 years before their classmate who goes into medicine becomes an attending. And the net present value of a good income 15 years earlier is huge. As a lawyer I've represented guys like this and sure they to some degree beat the odds of small businesses, but would scoff at the suggestion that medical or dental schools are the best fields to go into for the money.
And besides, if you look at the percentage of people who are self proclaimed "premeds" during freshmen year of college, less than 10% end up applying to med school by the end, so the "failure rate" of becoming a doctor is actually higher.
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Right, and I'm saying in no universe does the time value dropoff reduce 2-300+k ish in 7-8 years down to the levels of 100k ish starting now, when looking at 35+ year long careers. Unless the understanding I have of time value from healthcare economics classes is wildly different for personal finances.
As far as I've seen physicians are the best represented among the upper class, certainly more than self-made small business 1%ers. A quick google appears to confirm this
True, for the purposes of this discussion we have to assume the young person considering careers is actually capable of becoming a doctor, or engineer, or even a small business owner. There are other ways that it's possible to make more money, but absolutely nothing else guarantees equivalent wealth. High risk-reward doesn't appeal to that many outside the world of law and finance
As far as I've seen physicians are the best represented among the upper class, certainly more than self-made small business 1%ers. A quick google appears to confirm this
True, for the purposes of this discussion we have to assume the young person considering careers is actually capable of becoming a doctor, or engineer, or even a small business owner. There are other ways that it's possible to make more money, but absolutely nothing else guarantees equivalent wealth. High risk-reward doesn't appeal to that many outside the world of law and finance
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Right, and I'm saying in no universe does the time value dropoff reduce 2-300+k ish in 7-8 years down to the levels of 100k ish starting now, when looking at 35+ year long careers. Unless the understanding I have of time value from healthcare economics classes is wildly different for personal finances.
As far as I've seen physicians are the best represented among the upper class, certainly more than self-made small business 1%ers. A quick google appears to confirm this
True, for the purposes of this discussion we have to assume the young person considering careers is actually capable of becoming a doctor, or engineer, or even a small business owner. There are other ways that it's possible to make more money, but absolutely nothing else guarantees equivalent wealth. High risk-reward doesn't appeal to that many outside the world of law and finance
In the first paragraph you are ignoring the debt, which is in today's dollars, carries interest obligations, and has to be factored in as well. Physicians may eventually overtake the person earning $100k right out of college, but it will be fairly late in ones career. Also average physician salary is around $200k -- some actually earn less -- and those that are toward the $300k end of your range tend to have significantly longer training, so the 7-8 years you floated is likely going to be low.
Your second paragraph is simply false. Physicians and other professionals are a minority of the upper class. They are certainly not the "best represented", however you might be defining that.
As to your third paragraph, there are no guarantees in life. High risk reward may not appeal to many, but if you are "in it for the money" it should. If you play it safe you will always have more of a cap to your earnings. Spending a decade of school and training to earn what is essentially a lockstep income is extremely conservative and low yield.
And this post is on the high school board. Sorry to say it, but most high schoolers on here won't become doctors. With a 90%ish washout rate of premeds in college, odds just aren't much worse for success in most other routes.
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Out of curiosity, what would you personally have to pull annually to make up for starting 8 years later and $180k in debt, assuming a 35 year career? Before you saw medicine as paying better than engi? I was under the impression that after college it was 4 year MD and then 3-4 year residency depending on the choice. Is derm not ready to practice 8 years out for example?
I was unclear. I meant best represented as in top 1%ers per job; physicians have a higher proportion in the top 1% than any other field. If your life goal was to be a 1%er for the latter half of your life, to have the greatest odds of comfort and security from midway on and plenty to provide for family and children, then your best and safest bet is to get an MD and go for a well paid specialty.
I was also under the impression that some doctors in private practice in the right specialties and the right locations can easily become multimillionaires. If someone really had the acumen and networking skills to make it big in something like law or finance, they have options to put that to use with MD!
SDN has way too much bias for that to hold. The pre-allo boards are full of Ivy leaguers and 35+ MCAT scores, and likewise these high school boards are full of BS/MD candidates and such. I'd wager the type of high schoolers going online to learn about engineering and medicine are a cut above the typical froshie premed! Also can I have a source on the 90% dropout? I've looked for that data and never found it.
I was unclear. I meant best represented as in top 1%ers per job; physicians have a higher proportion in the top 1% than any other field. If your life goal was to be a 1%er for the latter half of your life, to have the greatest odds of comfort and security from midway on and plenty to provide for family and children, then your best and safest bet is to get an MD and go for a well paid specialty.
I was also under the impression that some doctors in private practice in the right specialties and the right locations can easily become multimillionaires. If someone really had the acumen and networking skills to make it big in something like law or finance, they have options to put that to use with MD!
SDN has way too much bias for that to hold. The pre-allo boards are full of Ivy leaguers and 35+ MCAT scores, and likewise these high school boards are full of BS/MD candidates and such. I'd wager the type of high schoolers going online to learn about engineering and medicine are a cut above the typical froshie premed! Also can I have a source on the 90% dropout? I've looked for that data and never found it.
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Have you ever owned a business? Cause I have... and know success cases and I know failed cases.
Try 100 hour weeks for years while in extreme debt and a small % of success. Going broke and losing everything is what happens to most... if you're lucky you'll make 50k/year after taxes owning a small business. But good luck at that millionaire dream if you pursue business... there's a reason the <1% is the <1%.
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Many practice models in medicine can yield a lot of money. Premeds/med students/residents always underestimate physician income.
What you're forgetting is that making 350k/year allows you to finance expensive stuff. Making 100k/year... not so much.
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Engineering vs Medicine money wise you're going to be very well off either way. In the scope of this thread I don't think it really matters, as OP stated it wasn't a deciding factor.
Back on topic....
You could try to major in engineering while doing the pre-reqs if you think you can do well in the courses. If you go over to the What Are My Chances thread there are many engineering majors applying. If you find out medicine isn't for you, you already have another job you'll love as a backup.
Just my 2¢ on it.
Back on topic....
You could try to major in engineering while doing the pre-reqs if you think you can do well in the courses. If you go over to the What Are My Chances thread there are many engineering majors applying. If you find out medicine isn't for you, you already have another job you'll love as a backup.
Just my 2¢ on it.
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Engineering schools are generally extremely grade deflating such that a well above average engi may only have a 3.5 GPA. If you want to do engineering premed you will essentially have to be near top of your class to hit competative 3.7+ numbers for MD. Its stupid because many premeds would love to go into engi as an alternative, but the harsher grading makes it a bad option for most.
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Most physicians are not making $350,000 a year. They just aren't.
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Most of certain specialties make significantly more than that
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I was under the impression since this is so well known many adcoms knew this and adjusted their view of a lower engineering GPA according. i.e. They see a 3.5 engineering as a 3.7 or something. Is this not so? Or do they just say engineering majors are out of luck?
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I'm sure it varies per adcom, but the ones active on SDN have all said they don't care at all what you study so long as you excel, and view a 3.7 the same regardless of whether it's in anthropology or chemical engineering. But SDN adcoms have been a poor sample before - they all state your alma mater matters little to none to them, so that even if the engineering is at MIT and the anthro at Podunk State they don't care, but the AAMC survey puts undergrad selectivity in the category of "highest importance" to private MD schools. So in the end your answer probably really is: depends.
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Some people in some specialties are making that. And they work hard for it, and make choices that limit the scope of their practice and careers. And it is only going to get less lucrative across the board. But you seem to have it all figured out; I'm sure my own experience as an attending in critical care in a major metropolitan area is not as comprehensive as your own.
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Ah yes because your superior status as a doctor invalidates data showing 300+k averages for a dozen specialties. "limit the scope and practice" please, they're highly competitive, they aren't being paid for selfless sacrifice and wouldn't call it limiting themselves to specialize. Perhaps in a few years I can come back with an MD and hear real arguments instead of your empty condescending nonsense?
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Ha! Perhaps you can.
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Um no. Theres a bit of premed fantasy going on here. 350k is not that common according to any of the reputable national surveys. The average physician income is in the $200k range, with some specialties not even breaking the $200k mark. ortho is generally at the high end of salaries and their average tends to be around 350k. And an average doesn't mean "most of that specialty" earns more than that. In fact for every millionaire orthopedist you might come across, that means there are quite a few who won't even earn average. salaries are good in medicine, but nowhere close to what you'd think from reading any of the premed boards.
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It's not so cut and dry. Adcoms reportedly do give some degree of a nod toward the harder curricula of engineers. But they really aren't spending much time auditing people's course load, and at the end of the day you are simply better off with the higher GPA than the tougher major. I'd always much rather have a 3.7 in an easy non-science major than a 3.5 in an engineering major.
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I count ~ten here that hit 300k as starting salaries. Do most people not earn the starting salary? I thought ~200 was your typical GP and a good number of the most competitive specialties easily hit mid 300s, which is what I see every time such a conversation makes me google this...
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Medscape publishes salary statistics every year or two and for the last few years has puts high end average (ortho) at about 350k. Certainly some physicians earn more than that but usually not starting, and yes they are being paid above average. The MGMA survey you've posted has been criticized for numerous reasons on SDN and specialty boards, and is, frankly non representative, skewed and wildly inaccurate. Rural settings that have trouble attracting people sometimes pay at the higher end. A starting peds salary (the low end specialty) can be pretty low -- often well below $200k. Thinking you'll come out of residency and earn $300k+, while not unheard of, is simply not the norm for doctors, and is probably a premed pipe dream for those going into medicine who are members of the high school board. But owing $300k will be a very real possibility as tuition keeps climbing.
At the current time the reality is that most doctors will spend a decade of med school and residency/fellowship, incur about $160k in student loans and get a job in the $200k range. Not terrible, but anyone in it "for the money" should cringe at this. Which is why you'd better be doing it for some other reason.
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But it's one of the few if not only profession with almost guaranteed long term employment. Obamatrade may have negative consequences for US trained engineers.
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Wow if the AAMC as a source is non representative, skewed and wildly inaccurate then I take back what I said. I figured their stats would be legit.
Say I'm a very hardworking, very smart and good standardized test taking student. I want to live comfortably from my 30s on and be certain that I will have a steady job and be able to provide everything I want for my kids (good private school, cars when they are 16, colleges of their choice etc). I enjoy science. I am not particularly creative nor altruistic. What fits me better as a goal than well paying MD specialties?
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First, it's not AAMC data, it's just republished on their site. Second, read the fine print. By my read, it's apparently only data from 567 large practice groups, divided amongst over 30 specialties (ie less than 20 groups were surveyed per specialty.) Thats not likely to even be statistically significant.
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In the end the trick is just to get a 4.0 in engineering at a tough school !
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Take away those working part time, doing academics, working too low, not focusing on seeing more patients, not optimizing their practice for higher profit etc. and... the 350k+ guys become a lott more common.
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First, in academics in some specialties income is decent so those guys aren't pulling down the average as much as you think, and that's not that big a minority in some fields. Second you keep throwing around the "not optimizing their practice" phrase like it means something. There are certainly a few dollars to be save here and there on administrative things, or doing a better job getting bills out, but most doctors are going to draw a salary based on reimbursements, which is not under their control. Third, I think the notion that you can work harder and see more patients and make more money is true but hugely overblown on the premed board-- not that many doctors earning below average salary are going home early without a reason.
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These things seem so simple in the abstract, but in reality almost everyone would like to maximize their earning potential, and most are willing to work hard to do so. So you should be wondering why everyone doesn't just "optimize their practice" and make more money. The answer is that it actually isn't simple, and there are major tradeoffs every step of the way. Not everyone can just stop accepting Medicare, become a partner in their group, see 50 patients a day, work on Saturdays, and open up an infusion center. Not accepting Medicare has significant ramifications in tax burdens, and could drastically reduce your patient pool. And PCPs won't refer patients to you if they think you're going to give them a hassle about insurance. Not everyone gets to be a partner, and usually not early on anyway, so part of every dollar you earn is going back to the group. Don't like it? Open a solo practice. Want to see 50 patients a day? Then you are going to need a few more coordinators, nurse-assistants, check-out people, maybe a transcriptionist to help you write those 50 notes a day. Oh, and you'll need a bigger waiting room. Oh, and you'll need to tell everyone else in the group that you'll be using all of the exam rooms, every day. And you'd better make sure all of your staff wants to work on Saturdays too, and you'll have to pay them for that. That infusion center is looking pretty good, but you'd better keep an eye on congress, because reimbursements can fluctuate wildly, making your cash projections very challenging. Oh, and you'll have to find someone else to cover any inpatient requirements -- you're too busy making money to worry about inpatient consults.
And you'd better be the only game in town, because once your patients figure out that you only see them for 8 minutes, they're going to look on-line and see that the guy down the street has 4.5/5 star reviews and people are raving about the attention she gives her patients.
And then you can forget about catching your kid's little league game because you'll be in clinic or doing paperwork until dinnertime. Thank god for the nanny, right? High-five, you're winning!
By the way, "doing academics" vs. private practice as a salary-limiting dichotomy is again misinformed. There are many cities where most physicians across many specialties are part of large center-affiliated faculty practice groups. There are huge incentives to doing so, including the free advertising, name recognition, and access to a vast referral network. To suggest that private practice is somehow superior ignores the nuances yet again.
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While I think some of these notions are forgivable on the high school board, it's remarkable that younger premeds seem to think so many full fledged doctors know so much less than them about maximizing income. If it was a simple matter of working harder and optimizing things better, averages would shoot up. Guess what -- it's not. As typhoonegator described, much of the time the limiting factors are not under your control. You'll be a slave to reimbursements, work for bosses or hospital administrators, and have hour, OR time and employee/infrastructure limitations which keep you from reaching the promised land you guys are fantasizing about, on average.
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I have no issue with naivete -- it's completely understandable. What bothers me is hubris, and this attitude of "I can google and my friend's dad is an ER doc so I obviously know more than you do". We don't volunteer our time on these boards to lie to people. People on the high school board might get more mileage out of us mods who venture here if they didn't spend so much time and energy trying to argue with us about our own experiences.
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Why wouldn't the opinions of another physician I know cancel out yours? It's a stupid, shallow battle of n=1's. If there is (good) population data, that matters much more than your experiences. Google beats out individuals on questions like "whats the average income of the best paid specialties".
I see this kind of logic in the pre-allo forums a lot too. "I got in to med school with a 25 MCAT, in my experience I can tell you all that matters is being a good fit for the school!" Well, no. Good to share your experience. Bad to speak like it's applicable all over the place.
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For you personally the " I know a guy" might trump a couple of SDNers who "are a guy". For everyone else reading it yours is second hand anecdote, which might be from an outlier and maybe was exaggerated when they told it to you (people aren't always candid as to what they earn). Which I don't think trumps the opinion of those walking the walk. But it's up to the reader to decide.
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Interesting. I would've assumed that while there people might say "No, it doesn't matter." that seeing a 3.8 from MIT, or whatever a hard engineering school is, might make an adcom more impressed than a higher GPA from a unknown state school. Makes me realize I still have a lot more to learn about all this. Thanks for the insight.
Also, if you don't mind me asking, would you say it's the same for Undergrad prestige? Or is that something your school takes into consideration? Going to a relatively non-prestigious state school (UToledo) I often wondered this but could never get a good response through searching.
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In general, the only time school prestige comes up for conversion in an Adcom meeting is with a borderline candidate. Someone will say "but he got a 3.2 at UC Berkeley (or other name school), that has to count for something".
We ponder this for a second or two, but it doesn't change anything. Being West of St Louis, we're more likely to see someone from Cal Poly as opposed to MIT.
Now, Admissions deans are different animals than Adcom members, and have a better read on the pulse of feeder schools. They will know how the engineering grads from MIT do at their schools, and so may indeed be OK with a 3.4 from MIT or U Chicago. But a 3.8 from U Toledo will still get on people's radar.
We ponder this for a second or two, but it doesn't change anything. Being West of St Louis, we're more likely to see someone from Cal Poly as opposed to MIT.
Now, Admissions deans are different animals than Adcom members, and have a better read on the pulse of feeder schools. They will know how the engineering grads from MIT do at their schools, and so may indeed be OK with a 3.4 from MIT or U Chicago. But a 3.8 from U Toledo will still get on people's radar.
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It's not a battle of n=1. It's a decade as a practicing physician interacting formally and informally with hundreds of other physicians on a weekly basis, sitting on task forces and advisory boards and admissions committees, versus a pre-med who knows some people and has access to clearly biased information on the AAMC website. You don't have to believe the opinions that my experience has rendered, and you certainly aren't the first to realize that the plural of anecdote is not data, but I would gently suggest that the opinions of people who are actually living this life might hold some intrinsic value in comparison to the results of an online survey that you haven't even taken the time to critically evaluate for systematic biases.
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Ah yes and in your interactions you usually find out your contacts salaries? Law2 told me the AAMC data is bad, it was my mistake trusting them without critical examination. I don't suppose you could provide more legitimate data showing how, say, ortho has a median income of 200k? Or even of less than 300? I'm still pretty convinced you can get yorself into the "fantasy" of a 300-350 median career by choosing the best paid specialties.
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Thanks!
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Cal poly is different than Cal tech @Goro!
The private Med schools care a lot about undergrad selectivity. Public Med schools don't care at all. Goro is basically the only measure we have of how DO ad com members might view it and at least for him its same view as public MD.
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You really aren't going to find useful data on the internet on salaries -- they're not necessarily false, but they may only apply to a small segment of the total. I've seen a bunch of references for median ortho salaries around 300K, and that sounds about right across the board.
But, what kind of ortho? And where do you want to do it? In private practice in a smaller city you could do it, particularly if you do spine (right now, that will likely change). If you join a large group, you stand to benefit from more referrals early on, but likely earn less until you've paid your dues. And you might need to buy into the practice to really start earning -- a big investment. And do you want to do the same procedure over and over, or do you want to have an academic affiliation and see some cool cases? You'll give up salary for that, too. For reference, starting salaries for even a neurosurgeon at a place like Harvard are well below 300K. In an attractive location you won't be the first to hang a shingle, which means referrals will be slow and ultimately you'll probably only get a relatively small slice of the available procedural pool, at least until later in your career.
But yeah, go to a really good ortho residency, get a really good fellowship, and be willing to do a lot of ACDFs, and you could definitely make that median -- particularly if location isn't crucially important to you.
My overall point wasn't that cosmetic dermatologists and ortho-spine docs and rhinoplasty ENTs and boutique headache clinic docs don't make a lot of money. They do. There just really aren't very many of them, and they relied heavily on a unique blend of talent, work-ethic, luck, and charisma to get where they are. For every one of them, there are hundreds if not thousands of PCPs, pediatricians, nephrologists, hematologists, radiologists, anesthesiologists, trauma surgeons, oncologists, neurologists, gerontologists, psychiatrists who make 150-200K. You certainly could be exceptional, but banking on threading the needle at this stage in your career might not be adaptive.
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Is there any good source showing surgery, anesthesia, urology, radiology are median 150-200? That's insanely low.
And is the bureau of labor stats a good source? Since they state:
In 2012, physicians practicing primary care received total median annual compensation of $220,942 and physicians practicing in medical specialties received total median annual compensation of $396,233.
