ENDO CYCLE '20 Q&A

[BocasDelToro]

The opening of the 2020 (that seems weird to say) PASS Application Cycle is fast approaching. For all of you aspiring endo candidates, feel free to ask any and all questions regarding the PASS process, various programs, the interviewing road, etc.

I will do my best, and hopefully some other successful past applicants will chime in as well, to pass along my advice and wisdom from previous application cycles.

Keep it friendly, and please don't post your stats on here and ask whether we think you have a shot of getting in. We don't know you, and that's not our place to say. Keep it to specific PASS-related, program-related inquiries.

Go get 'em.

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[Strag]

Appreciate you setting this up. What programs are heavily favored towards graduating D4s vs. experienced grads vs. foreign-trained dentists? Which ones are heavily research-focused vs clinically-focused? Which programs only look at those that are top of their class?

 

[BocasDelToro]

Appreciate you setting this up. What programs are heavily favored towards graduating D4s vs. experienced grads vs. foreign-trained dentists? Which ones are heavily research-focused vs clinically-focused? Which programs only look at those that are top of their class?

Programs from what I've seen that are open to interviewing graduating D4s include Minnesota, SLU, Iowa, UFlorida, UConn, Nova. I'm sure there are more out there. It's hard to really say this program will definitely take A., B., and C.. Every application cycle is a little different. A program might accept a D4 one year and then none the next year; it's totally dependent on the candidate pool.

Every program has some degree of research. Usually if you're pursuing the 3 or 5 year(PhD) programs, then there's going to be a lot more research. The certificate programs, overall, are fairly lighter on the research. I wouldn't be too worried about this factor.

Couldn't tell ya which programs look at the "top of the class." Every program wants the best group of residents, but that doesn't necessarily equate to nabbing the class valedictorian. Talents go a lot further than a GPA...but, that being said, don't expect to be swimming in interviews if you're rocking a ranking in the bottom of your class.

 

[Nat426]

Can you share your interview experiences?

 

[Stanelz]

This is great! I'm currently entering my second year, have been interested endo for some time but could never figure out how exactly to choose a program.

Like how do you go about picking what program is right for you? Is it just based on location? Is there any way to find out what school are exactly looking for as far as rank and experiences goes? How does one get into a paid vs non paid program?

One of my upperclassmen gave me some advice on which programs require GPR/AEGD and which programs offer externships, etc. but I'm having difficulty trying to figure out where to apply to. Obviously I cant afford to apply to all of them.

I just wish I knew what these programs were looking for, what makes you stand out? We all know that good rank, high ADAT, externships, club affiliation, and research is important but what else can we do as dental students to stand out? What would be a rank in which an applicant would be competitive?

 

[wplumlee83]

This is great! I'm currently entering my second year, have been interested endo for some time but could never figure out how exactly to choose a program.

Like how do you go about picking what program is right for you? Is it just based on location? Is there any way to find out what school are exactly looking for as far as rank and experiences goes? How does one get into a paid vs non paid program?

One of my upperclassmen gave me some advice on which programs require GPR/AEGD and which programs offer externships, etc. but I'm having difficulty trying to figure out where to apply to. Obviously I can afford to apply to all of them.

I just wish I knew what these programs were looking for, what makes you stand out? We all know that good rank, high ADAT, externships, club affiliation, and research is important but what else can we do as dental students to stand out? What would be a rank in which an applicant would be competitive?

Almost all programs are looking for clinical experience, based on what I know and the folks I have talked to.
Folks who are applying as D4s or recent grads should definitely apply to private schools rather than state. Private schools absolutely must fill their slots for tuition so it's easier getting into a high tuition private school over a state school that has GME funding or zero tuition. Just reality man.
Keep your grades up. Shoot for a reasonable class rank. Try and get into OKU if you can, although that's just a cherry on top.
Strong letters of recommendation will get you in the door for an interview. Rest is up to you.
It's good you're thinking about specializing early, but you haven't tried it all yet to know what you like. I did complex PROS, opening vertical dimension, custom wax ups, copper plating Duralay dies. Took me a while, but I realized I wanted something that was technically challenging and completely within my sphere of influence. Hence I want ENDO.

 

[Stanelz]

Those of you applying. What programs are you/did you apply to and why?

 

[BocasDelToro]

Can you share your interview experiences?

Standard questions are to be expected: Why endo? How many cases have you done? What makes you stand out? How was your dental school experience? What topics of research are you interested in? Strengths, weaknesses? etc. etc.
For the most part, everyone is super nice and welcoming.
Most interviews involved anywhere from 3-6 rotating one-on-one interviews with faculty, talking to current residents, tour of the facilities. Some of the programs offer a happy hour either the night before the interviews or right after. I highly recommend being in attendance.

 

[FutureDent020]

Those of you applying. What programs are you/did you apply to and why?

1) Apply to programs you could realistically see yourself going to. It gets expensive, interview dates are usually close together (July-August), and your time/ money is valuable.
2) Have an idea what you want to do with your education. Practice- Just do certificate programs. Teach/ Research with some practice- make sure to apply to programs that focus on a Masters.
3) If clinical practice is your goal, the lower the tuition the better.

 

[ToothSleuther]

I recently submitted my PASS application. I was informed by a school that my IEF on PASS did not include my NBDE Score.

Either my evaluator will have to correct it/add my score to PASS (not sure if this will happen), or I need to have the ADA release my scores to all the institutions I applied.

Has anyone encountered this issue before?

Seems like this process keeps getting more expensive.

 

[Torshammer]

I recently submitted my PASS application. I was informed by a school that my IEF on PASS did not include my NBDE Score.

Either my evaluator will have to correct it/add my score to PASS (not sure if this will happen), or I need to have the ADA release my scores to all the institutions I applied.

Has anyone encountered this issue before?

Seems like this process keeps getting more expensive.

Dang sorry to hear that, sounds like a big inconvenience. Would you be able to talk to your dean about the issue, have him/her edit the IEF with your score, and have ADEA PASS re-send a link? Sending score reports to all schools will cost an arm and a leg

 

[Roy Williams]

Does anyone have any idea as to the current job market for a newly graduated endo specialist? It's hard to find things online.

 

[BocasDelToro]

Does anyone have any idea as to the current job market for a newly graduated endo specialist? It's hard to find things online.

The job market is solid and isn't going anywhere for the foreseeable future. From my observations, endo, OS, and peds are probably your safest investments in terms of specialties

 

[nobeldds]

I recently submitted my PASS application. I was informed by a school that my IEF on PASS did not include my NBDE Score.

Either my evaluator will have to correct it/add my score to PASS (not sure if this will happen), or I need to have the ADA release my scores to all the institutions I applied.

Has anyone encountered this issue before?

Seems like this process keeps getting more expensive.

On the ADEA website, it says this...

• New in 2019! The National Board Dental Exam (NBDE) results will no longer be collected on the IEF as official results can now be requested and sent to ADEA PASS by the applicant.

I submitted a request for my EIF/Dean's Letter on the day that PASS opened and school still has not submitted the letter at all.

 

[student4life01]

Anybody received application complete emails from Houston or Baylor?

 

[Torshammer]

On the ADEA website, it says this...

• New in 2019! The National Board Dental Exam (NBDE) results will no longer be collected on the IEF as official results can now be requested and sent to ADEA PASS by the applicant.

I submitted a request for my EIF/Dean's Letter on the day that PASS opened and school still has not submitted the letter at all.

Hmm, my Dean asked for and I believe still included my NBDE scores in the IEF. I did not send a score report to PASS and was able to complete the application and submit.

Did anyone send NBDE score reports to PASS? I did not see a section where that was required.

 

[Torshammer]

Hi guys, I called PASS about the NBDE score issue and ended up sending a score report to them. My dean included it in her IEF and my app was submitted without the official score report, but I would recommend uploading an official score report to be safe.

 

[endo desperate]

Any one knew about Marquette Endo Program?

 

[Nat426]

All the programs I applied to accepted a scanned copy of my official NBDE scores, will request and send an official report if accepted.

 

[student4life01]

Schools have been mentioning that the application status update would be notified on PASS and they would email us through PASS if we get an interview . Where should we check for that on the portal?

 

[FutureDent020]

Schools have been mentioning that the application status update would be notified on PASS and they would email us through PASS if we get an interview . Where should we check for that on the portal?

This confused me too last year. Those emails ended up coming through whatever email you provided them. No “interview notification” was ever posted on the PASS portal. Just application complete notifications.

 

[ToothSleuther]

Got some clarity regarding the NBDE scores in the IEF.

My IEF evaluator contacted PASS, and was told that NBDE scores cannot be added to the IEF. Therefore, my NBDE scores were not in my IEF.

I had my official scores sent to PASS, as indicated on the website directions. It has been weeks since I requested my scores be sent to PASS, and the scores have not been uploaded to my application yet.

I contacted PASS, they informed me they are experiencing issues posting NBDE for ALL applicants. There is no set date when they will have this issue resolved.

Some endodontic application deadlines are quickly approaching, and the schools still inform me my applications are incomplete due to missing NBDE scores. I offered to have scores sent directly to the schools, however, some only accept official scores posted to PASS.

As of now, I have a handful of incomplete applications that are pending PASS getting their technical issues resolved.

Guess I have to sit tight.

Has anyone received confirmation that official NBDE scores have successfully been uploaded to their PASS application?

 

[EndoWarrior]

Got some clarity regarding the NBDE scores in the IEF.

My IEF evaluator contacted PASS, and was told that NBDE scores cannot be added to the IEF. Therefore, my NBDE scores were not in my IEF.

I had my official scores sent to PASS, as indicated on the website directions. It has been weeks since I requested my scores be sent to PASS, and the scores have not been uploaded to my application yet.

I contacted PASS, they informed me they are experiencing issues posting NBDE for ALL applicants. There is no set date when they will have this issue resolved.

Some endodontic application deadlines are quickly approaching, and the schools still inform me my applications are incomplete due to missing NBDE scores. I offered to have scores sent directly to the schools, however, some only accept official scores posted to PASS.

As of now, I have a handful of incomplete applications that are pending PASS getting their technical issues resolved.

Guess I have to sit tight.

Has anyone received confirmation that official NBDE scores have successfully been uploaded to their PASS application?

Thanks for looking into this!

Have you, or has anyone else, had trouble with PASS posting your dental school transcript? I had mine sent weeks ago and it still says not arrived...

 

[ToothSleuther]

Thanks for looking into this!

Have you, or has anyone else, had trouble with PASS posting your dental school transcript? I had mine sent weeks ago and it still says not arrived...

I haven’t had a problem with official transcript upload. Mine took about 1 week to upload after electronic submission to PASS.

 

[student4life01]

Got some clarity regarding the NBDE scores in the IEF.

My IEF evaluator contacted PASS, and was told that NBDE scores cannot be added to the IEF. Therefore, my NBDE scores were not in my IEF.

I had my official scores sent to PASS, as indicated on the website directions. It has been weeks since I requested my scores be sent to PASS, and the scores have not been uploaded to my application yet.

I contacted PASS, they informed me they are experiencing issues posting NBDE for ALL applicants. There is no set date when they will have this issue resolved.

Some endodontic application deadlines are quickly approaching, and the schools still inform me my applications are incomplete due to missing NBDE scores. I offered to have scores sent directly to the schools, however, some only accept official scores posted to PASS.

As of now, I have a handful of incomplete applications that are pending PASS getting their technical issues resolved.

Guess I have to sit tight.

Has anyone received confirmation that official NBDE scores have successfully been uploaded to their PASS application?

Yes, I just checked my official NBDE has been uploaded. My ADAT hasnt been updated though.

 

[ZestyToothpaste]

Got some clarity regarding the NBDE scores in the IEF.

My IEF evaluator contacted PASS, and was told that NBDE scores cannot be added to the IEF. Therefore, my NBDE scores were not in my IEF.

I had my official scores sent to PASS, as indicated on the website directions. It has been weeks since I requested my scores be sent to PASS, and the scores have not been uploaded to my application yet.

I contacted PASS, they informed me they are experiencing issues posting NBDE for ALL applicants. There is no set date when they will have this issue resolved.

Some endodontic application deadlines are quickly approaching, and the schools still inform me my applications are incomplete due to missing NBDE scores. I offered to have scores sent directly to the schools, however, some only accept official scores posted to PASS.

As of now, I have a handful of incomplete applications that are pending PASS getting their technical issues resolved.

Guess I have to sit tight.

Has anyone received confirmation that official NBDE scores have successfully been uploaded to their PASS application?

My NBDE was uploaded today.

Yes, I just checked my official NBDE has been uploaded. My ADAT hasnt been updated though.

I thought we self report ADAT scored on pass and have them sent directly to the schools?

 

[Torshammer]

My NBDE was uploaded today as well, took about a week. I sent my ADAT score to PASS and got that uploaded pretty quickly.

 

[Torshammer]

I thought we self report ADAT scored on pass and have them sent directly to the schools?

Best to clarify with the individual schools. Some accept the score report as uploaded onto PASS, while others will want score reports sent directly to them.

 

[student4life01]

My NBDE was uploaded today as well, took about a week. I sent my ADAT score to PASS and got that uploaded pretty quickly.

How were you able to send it directly to PASS. Did you just give the exam this year and select PASS when completing your application?
For me they informed that if I request a score report for any program it will automatically be sent to PASS as well but hasn’t been uploaded as of yet. I had given the exam last year.

 

[Endodent1988]

Thanks for looking into this!

Have you, or has anyone else, had trouble with PASS posting your dental school transcript? I had mine sent weeks ago and it still says not arrived...

They said it could take up to 13 business days for a transcript to post.

 

[Torshammer]

How were you able to send it directly to PASS. Did you just give the exam this year and select PASS when completing your application?
For me they informed that if I request a score report for any program it will automatically be sent to PASS as well but hasn’t been uploaded as of yet. I had given the exam last year.

I was also told by a representative that as long as you selected 1 school during the ADAT application process, the score report will be automatically uploaded to PASS. It's strange that your application hasn't been updated yet at this point. I would call them.

I actually didn't select any schools during the application to take the test, so I had to send a score report to one of the schools I applied to after the fact to have it uploaded to my PASS app.

 

[ToothSleuther]

How were you able to send it directly to PASS. Did you just give the exam this year and select PASS when completing your application?
For me they informed that if I request a score report for any program it will automatically be sent to PASS as well but hasn’t been uploaded as of yet. I had given the exam last year.

You have to request scores be sent from the ADA to PASS.

Also, it appears mine finally posted to my application.

 

[student4life01]

Any correspondence from NEBRASKA for anyone

 

[ToothSleuther]

Any correspondence from NEBRASKA for anyone

I heard supplemental applications are being sent out today.

 

[student4life01]

Everyone who applied receives it right?

 

[56101991]

Almost all programs are looking for clinical experience, based on what I know and the folks I have talked to.
Folks who are applying as D4s or recent grads should definitely apply to private schools rather than state. Private schools absolutely must fill their slots for tuition so it's easier getting into a high tuition private school over a state school that has GME funding or zero tuition. Just reality man.
Keep your grades up. Shoot for a reasonable class rank. Try and get into OKU if you can, although that's just a cherry on top.
Strong letters of recommendation will get you in the door for an interview. Rest is up to you.
It's good you're thinking about specializing early, but you haven't tried it all yet to know what you like. I did complex PROS, opening vertical dimension, custom wax ups, copper plating Duralay dies. Took me a while, but I realized I wanted something that was technically challenging and completely within my sphere of influence. Hence I want ENDO.

I disagree, I applied as a dental student to mostly state programs and got 7/9 interviews (accepted at top choice). If you are a good applicant (top 15%, OKU, etc), you will get interviews and acceptances. Someone told me to apply to mostly private programs as well when I was applying- I didn't listen and it paid off. Good luck to everyone applying and don't be discouraged if you don't have real world/GPR experience, everyone is in the same boat when residency begins.

 

[FutureDent020]

“everyone is in the same boat when residency begins.

This is not true. A dentist who has practiced for 5+ years and done 100+ root canals, CE, and thousands of tough restorative will be more prepared for an Endo residency than a student out of school. Now, at the end of residency you’ll both be qualified and skilled endodontist and that prior experience may not be as significant.

Just a question, what kind of experience do your co-residents have?

 

[hl13]

What would be a competitive ADAT score or average?

 

[56101991]

This is not true. A dentist who has practiced for 5+ years and done 100+ root canals, CE, and thousands of tough restorative will be more prepared for an Endo residency than a student out of school. Now, at the end of residency you’ll both be qualified and skilled endodontist and that prior experience may not be as significant.

Just a question, what kind of experience do your co-residents have?

From my experience, fresh grads who enter Endo residency were successful students throughout DS and adapt well and quickly to residency. Some of the residents with yrs and yrs of experience haven't been in an academic settings for years and it shows. There are advantages and disadvantages to both. All I'm saying is don't be discouraged as a student- apply to programs where you can actually see yourself and want to go. Though my advice mostly applies to students who did well in dental school.

 

[Stanelz]

What is OKU?

 

[FutureDent020]

Dental Honor Society

 

[SharpTeeth]

Is it important to fill out the "additional information" portion of the ADEA PASS app??? thanks!

 

[ToothSleuther]

Is it important to fill out the "additional information" portion of the ADEA PASS app??? thanks!

I'm not sure if it's overly important or not, but I still filled it out.

 

[Stanelz]

Three questions

1. What is the application cycle timeline? If someone were to start residency the fall right after dental school when would they have applied? If they did an AEGD when would they apply?

2. How much stipend do schools give out? For schools that make you pay what is a low cost of attendance? What is average? What is high?

3. Is it better to attend an AEGD at a school that has the endo program you want to enter or should you base it off something else?

Thanks

 

[emerald13]

Three questions

1. What is the application cycle timeline? If someone were to start residency the fall right after dental school when would they have applied? If they did an AEGD when would they apply?

2. How much stipend do schools give out? For schools that make you pay what is a low cost of attendance? What is average? What is high?

3. Is it better to attend an AEGD at a school that has the endo program you want to enter or should you base it off something else?

Thanks

1. Application via PASS for endo residency programs open mid-May the YEAR BEFORE the programs starts. A few schools require a direct application to their program not through PASS. Example: If you want to start right after DS4, you would have to apply the end of your DS3 year. If you do a 1 year PGR, you would apply end of DS4.

2. Don't expect schools to give a stipend. I think there might be only a few that do. Look on the AAE website for more info about programs that you can quickly sort through (although not all of the info is current). I would say low is <20K per year, Average 25-50K per year, High >60K per year (all not including living expenses).

3. If you want to specialize in endo, I would say looking for a GPR or AEGD program that allows you to do RCTs is good experience. If they teach you how to do retreats, surgery, etc. that's a plus. The experience that is most beneficial to you as a resident would be working with endodontists on more advanced cases. If you don't do a program w/endo experience you are better off working private practice for a year and having a little income. From what I've heard from a few people did a PGR for a year in a clinic their experience was sub-par and they mostly did fillings, extractions, and maybe 1 crown. A lot of schools value experience, but not all of them.

Sounds like you are still in dental school, so I would work on beefing up your experience in school with research & staying on top of your classes/rank. Specifically working with endo faculty so you can get good recommendation letters when it comes time to apply. Plan on taking the ADAT early spring before PASS opens (some GPRs/AEGDs require it so you may need to take it sooner if you plan on doing one). You could always apply for both endo and residency programs and if you don't get into endo reapply the following year. Endo programs aren't match and a lot of GPR/AEGD programs are so you'll have some time before MATCH to know if you get in a program or not. You could potentially find programs post-match as well.

 

[Stanelz]

1. Application via PASS for endo residency programs open mid-May the YEAR BEFORE the programs starts. A few schools require a direct application to their program not through PASS. Example: If you want to start right after DS4, you would have to apply the end of your DS3 year. If you do a 1 year PGR, you would apply end of DS4.

2. Don't expect schools to give a stipend. I think there might be only a few that do. Look on the AAE website for more info about programs that you can quickly sort through (although not all of the info is current). I would say low is <20K per year, Average 25-50K per year, High >60K per year (all not including living expenses).

3. If you want to specialize in endo, I would say looking for a GPR or AEGD program that allows you to do RCTs is good experience. If they teach you how to do retreats, surgery, etc. that's a plus. The experience that is most beneficial to you as a resident would be working with endodontists on more advanced cases. If you don't do a program w/endo experience you are better off working private practice for a year and having a little income. From what I've heard from a few people did a PGR for a year in a clinic their experience was sub-par and they mostly did fillings, extractions, and maybe 1 crown. A lot of schools value experience, but not all of them.

Sounds like you are still in dental school, so I would work on beefing up your experience in school with research & staying on top of your classes/rank. Specifically working with endo faculty so you can get good recommendation letters when it comes time to apply. Plan on taking the ADAT early spring before PASS opens (some GPRs/AEGDs require it so you may need to take it sooner if you plan on doing one). You could always apply for both endo and residency programs and if you don't get into endo reapply the following year. Endo programs aren't match and a lot of GPR/AEGD programs are so you'll have some time before MATCH to know if you get in a program or not. You could potentially find programs post-match as well.

wow thanks so much for the info. Some follow up questions.

1. At the end of my D3 year I should apply to both an AEGD and Endo program ideally then or should I wait to apply to the AEGD later on. You mentioned AEGD/GPR is MATCH so is the cycle different?

2. You apply to endo in May so when would you interview and hear back? At what point would I apply to the AEGD?

3. Is PASS the application site? Is that specifically for endo only?

4. I currently have three endo research projects going-one likely to be published in JOE, have a great relationship with my endo faculty that would write in excellent LOR, shadowing three endodontists, im on the exec board for our endo club and will be president most likely next year, predoc member of AAE, and have a class rank in the 40's and have my goal set around upper to mid 30's realistically prior to applying. Is there anything else I can do?

Thanks!

 

[emerald13]

wow thanks so much for the info. Some follow up questions.

1. At the end of my D3 year I should apply to both an AEGD and Endo program ideally then or should I wait to apply to the AEGD later on. You mentioned AEGD/GPR is MATCH so is the cycle different?

2. You apply to endo in May so when would you interview and hear back? At what point would I apply to the AEGD?

3. Is PASS the application site? Is that specifically for endo only?

4. I currently have three endo research projects going-one likely to be published in JOE, have a great relationship with my endo faculty that would write in excellent LOR, shadowing three endodontists, im on the exec board for our endo club and will be president most likely next year, predoc member of AAE, and have a class rank in the 40's and have my goal set around upper to mid 30's realistically prior to applying. Is there anything else I can do?

Thanks!

I'll reply to your questions in a DM since this is off topic from the thread, which is specific for this application cycle.

 

[Stanelz]

Anyone know any good programs that take Externs/observers in their second year?

 

[FutureDent020]

Anyone know any good programs that take Externs/observers in their second year?

Unfortunately these opportunities are extremely rare and limit you to observing or assisting. Iowa does have something where you get to treat 1 patient, but you may have to actually be a student at Iowa... It’s not like OS externships where you shadow cases and eventually remove some teeth. There are a lot of reasons why these opportunities are limited to basic observing or assisting which I’d be happy to elaborate on if you want. But if you are still interested I’m sure you could just google participating schools...

Oh and you won’t be able to touch a patient at another school until you have at least started clinic at your own school. Some places may even require you to have completed a full year of clinic.

 

[LFA20]

Do I stand a shot at endo?
Stats:

-Will have had 4 years of experience in the navy
- gpa: 3.63
- 3rd year cumulative class rank: 43/81
-4th year cumulative class rank : 53/81

Not planning on taking the adat.

Thanks