Emergency Medicine Wins!!! More Residency Positions

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A sports car would make no sense for my lifestyle. I roll in a sick Subaru Forester. I love it. Had it for 5 years now. When it comes time, I will likely replace it with another Subaru. I spend a lot of time on unpaved roads. It gets me all the places I need to go, in comfort. It's also dirty as hell from these dirt road drives, and since it's not a decorative vehicle, I don't really care.

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Like I said- to each their own. For me, a car gets me from point A to point B and nothing else. And, it is a depreciating asset. If I spent $100K on a car, any incremental pleasure derived from its creature comforts, status and performance (minimal in my case) would be far outweighed by regret and anger at myself over what that extra $75K spent will turn into in 20 years. Hoping to retire by 50 and not have to deal with medicine anymore, that angst is simply not worth it for me.

Cars do nothing for me. Some people are really into them. If one gets that much pleasure out of them, then have at it. But, it is certainly a good way to delay reaching ones retirement number.
If you are not into expensive things, you should be FI earlier than that. I assuming you are an EP doc who completed residency in your early 30s and make 350k+/yr.
 
Isn't the price of M6 100k+?
Brand new, yes, they were over $100K. I got mine used with 6,000 miles on it, in essentially mint condition, and well below sticker value. In fact, I got it so much below sticker I honestly felt bad for the guy that paid sticker, ate the depreciation, and only got to drive it for 6K miles.

My current car I bought used for high $40’s, (Volvo s90).
 
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TeamHealth has an exciting opportunity for a full-time experienced academic Emergency Medicine physician to lead our team as an Emergency Medicine Residency Program Director at Mission Hospital located in Asheville, North Carolina. The ideal candidate will oversee the development, application and the maintenance of certification of the program in compliance with Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) requirements and the Policies and Procedures of the Sponsoring Institution. This leadership opportunity will be available starting spring 2021 with the program scheduled to open June 2022
 
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J Emerg Med 2016 Apr;50(4):690-3.
The Emergency Medicine Workforce: Profile and Projections
Mark Reiter 1, Leana S Wen 2, Brady W Allen 3
Affiliations collapse
Affiliations
1University of Tennessee-Murfreesboro, Murfreesboro, Tennessee; American Academy of Emergency Medicine, Milwaukee, Wisconsin; Emergency Excellence, LLC, Brentwood, Tennessee.
2Patient-Centered Care Research, The George Washington University, Washington, DC; Department of Emergency Medicine, The George Washington University, Washington, DC.
3University of Tennessee-Murfreesboro, Murfreesboro, Tennessee; Physicians' Urgent Care, PLLC, Brentwood, Tennessee.

At the end of 2013, there were 34,434 ABEM- or AOBEM-certified emergency physicians, out of an ED workforce of 45,140, representing 76% of emergency physicians. We estimate that ∼2050 emergency medicine residents enter the workforce each year, and around 767 ABEM/AOBEM-certified physicians retired (1.7% attrition), for a net gain of approximately 1283 ABEM/AOBEM-certified physicians per year. Assuming no increase in the ED workforce and an even geographic distribution, there can be enough ABEM/AOBEM-certified physicians to comprise the entire emergency physician workforce in about 8 years.

In addition, if we assume it will take an average 2 years for a board-eligible residency graduate to become board certified, there are likely over 4000 board-eligible EM-residency-trained physicians. Looking at these data, it appears that the combined board-certified and board-eligible emergency physician workforce is ∼38,500, representing 85% of emergency physicians. In light of this, there can be enough ABEM/AOBEM-certified or eligible physicians to comprise the entire emergency physician workforce in about 5 years.

 
The EM Physician Evershortage

I started thinking about going into EM in the '90s. There was an EM doc shortage then and it was unanimous among EM docs that "we need more bodies." By 2000, I was in EM residency. The specialty was short then. It was unanimous that we needed more EM docs. The results of the shortage was good pay, but you always felt slammed, burned out, over pressured and overwhelmed, always being required to work 20% more hours, and 20% faster than your mental health could sustain.

By the late 2000's, I decided the EM doc Evershortage had burned me out and would not end soon enough for my mental and physical well being. By 2011, I was out for good. It was still unanimous among EM docs that, "We need more bodies." I honestly felt that if I could have worked less, I might have avoided burnout and perhaps could enjoy EM for the long haul. But The Evershortage never ended in my EM lifetime. It was ever-present, never was there any hope (or risk) of it coming to an end, but I prayed that it would in time for me. It never came.

Fast forward to 2021 and the end of the Evershortage, that we all agreed on, prayed for, hoped for, and wanted has come to an end. And no one wants it.
 
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That's an anomaly. The only US comparison we have is the VA system. Bear in mind that's the VA having to compete with just enough pay to find physicians. When it's single payer, there will be no incentive to pay doctors enough to work. We are also in a situation of physician oversupply, unlike Canada.
Canada has done a much better job protecting their domestic grads, unlike the US.
 
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Average salary in Canada for EP's is 271k

In Canada, the average gross payment for ER docs is 390K CAD....but 13% of that goes to overhead.
So that’s pretax 339K CAD income.

However, they work an average of 46.4 hours per week, not yet including on call hours. On call hours are on average 23 hours per month in direct patient care.

Let’s just take 339K CAD and divide just by 46.4 hours x 52 weeks. It comes out to 140.5/hr pay in CAD. That’s $115/hr in USD pay....BEFORE taxes (and we all know canada income taxes are much higher overall)

Source:

 
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In Canada, the average gross payment for ER docs is 390K CAD....but 13% of that goes to overhead.
So that’s pretax 339K CAD income.

However, they work an average of 46.4 hours per week, not yet including on call hours. On call hours are on average 23 hours per month in direct patient care.

Let’s just take 339K CAD and divide just by 46.4 hours x 52 weeks. It comes out to 140.5/hr pay in CAD. That’s $115/hr in USD pay....BEFORE taxes (and we all know canada income taxes are much higher overall)

Source:

46 hours per week? It must be low volume per hour or low acuity. Can't imagine U.S. throughput with that many hours.
 
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I think EM is first, then anesthesiology. Rad Onc and Pathology will continue to wallow.

After that will be a straight across the board decline of the hospital based IM subspecialties. Pushed in part by expansion of ARNP/PAs filling more and more roles. One can already see this in Sleep Medicine. Look at the job postings. More and more are ARNPs. Most places only want one sleep doc, and then an army of ARNPs/PAs which is the impending Big Box shop model for everything.

Surgical specialties will start to decline some, too, straight across all surgical specialties as re-alignments of insurance pay suppression intersects with Big Box Shop medicine gobbling up more percentages of surgical practice. That even if they are still well compensated that money will go to the employer overlords and not the docs. States with Certificate of Need will prevent the exodus to surgery centers meaning everyone is stuck in the hospital - a bad place to be. They will decline, not crumble, and the financial pay in concert with the shorter career span, and higher opportunity cost to get there, means anyone really thinking will ask themselves - is this really worth the cost?

Derm will be next to be crushed, but not as bad as EM or Rad Onc or Path. Some degree of patient loyalty will exist for the annual skin checks and if the determined derm puts the shingle up, gets rocked for a few years financially they will eventually have their own. Their own little practice with stable patients and freedom, but it will be a harder road to achieve when surround by Big Box shops and every wannabe derm out there. FM/IM/EM reborn/NDs/ARNPs, etc.

Radiology will likely start to succumb to the pressures or midlevel encroachment, too.

OB/GYN simply won't grow. They will continue on as is, because all future growth will be in duloas and midwives etc. Hospitals will continue to need them for coverage of "oh shoot we need a c-section stat!" but the rest of their expertise and skill will be disregarded like the rest. Over time, the independent OB groups slowly trickle down because of Draconian hospital Big Box shop practices that push out any independent groups and their quest to have only their medical groups.

Next to fall is CC, as EM flood into its ranks, with anesthesiology too, then the Big Box shop pressure to staff with layers of ARNPs/PAs will hasten its decline.

Next to fall is Pain because of the cascading dominos of exit seekers seeing fellowships as their out. Pure saturation. Same for hospice; but hospice will also have midlevel encroachment.

Ophthalmology will get hit by declining reimbursements, Optometry expansion and similar to the other surgical specialties, is it worth the cost?

Peds will fall next because all the ARNPs completing FNP certifications will simply see them as 'little people' and a weekend CME course will get them up to speed. Some protection will exist for peds to flee to fellowships for awhile, but they too will become populated by ARNPs/PAs with only few signatory docs around for ornamental purposes. There will be unemployed Pediatricians.

PM&R will suffer next, but quietly, because there are so few of them and most people don't even know they exist. Token docs will be kept around for Rehab hospitals, but their only outpatient future rests on graces of ortho/neurosurgery groups keeping them around. There will be unemployed PM&R.

Psychiatry won't fall, but it will get tough. Big Box Shop jobs will become saturated by ARNPs/PAs. I'm in a saturated area now and already seeing it. My practice is growing slowly, so I'm a bit more in the front of the wave than other locations in the country. Hospitals will only keep around token docs for being med directors. The remaining Psychiatrists will flee to niche environments like eating disorders or addiction facilities but these are such low volume anyways, quickly they saturate, too. The rest flee to outpatient practice but there they are met with steep competition from ARNPs already in practice. Some will choose the path of very slow insurance based practice growth with rates that are well below medicare; others will opt cash but quickly the realties of cash and med check focus isn't enough volume and they have to do therapy. There is room for therapy/med check and patients will delight in this. Because a patient goes from being 400+ down to 100+ there is room for this surge. It will in some circles be considered a positive rebirth for psychiatry as more niche practices develop. Trauma clinic, GAD clinic, depression clinic, etc. Even hallucinogen therapy clinics... But one barrier to this, will be the psychology prescribing as they get their scope of expansion, because they are ticked off at the masters levels therapists. Psychiatry will survive, but it will be tough, it will be slow rate of growth and it will be very focused on niche practices and the niche wave will push further and further rural. Psychiatry will be akin to dentistry and people will look to take over (even buy?) retiring practices. Some practices will expedite their growth by liberally using benzos and stimulants; This will persist until/if an opioid epidemic reality strikes at the level of national players that seek to eliminate benzos are tighten down on stimulants - but before it happens there will be a flood first.

PCPs will be more resilient as they are PRIMARY. They will be able to open all sorts of independent practices. Cash/ retainer/ DPC/ boutique/ whatever. As their numbers surge, and they start to have only a handful of token docs around for the Big Box Shops, niche practices will start to develop. But this will also intersect with the earlier waves of disenfranchised EM and other docs who opened random niche clinics. Perhaps around this time something drastic happens. MD/DOs cease granting degrees and ARNPs inherit the land, or a flexner style report happens again, cleans house and shuts down all ARNPs, PAs and a bunch of medical schools and completely re-tools the medical sphere.

Neurology is the real winner. Because even PAs and ARNPs know that neurology is tough and few dare to enter in the first place and those who do get chewed up and spit out quickly. Neurology numbers expand that Big Box shops rejoice to know that every stroke service is adequately staffed and every outpatient clinic is adequately staffed. And although Neurology becomes the winner in this race to the bottom they are equally bitter as everyone else. Because now in the hospital they feel like a cog, meaningless rag like everyone else, and in the outpatient clinic they feel like a Psychiatrist with every single non-neurological psychosomatic complaint that gets referred to them by every ARNP elsewhere in the health system. HA of two days, see Neurology! 22yo tripped and hit their head while drunk on spring break in Cancun, no deficits or further symptoms, go see Neurology! (just to be sure...) They can't complain about filtering out BS consults because, well, they know they are truly the last to turn out the lights.
They come next for surgery.


MIMIS is a center of excellence to instruct surgeons, surgical residents (physician and PAs) in established laparoscopic techniques and to develop new techniques and instrumentation. For the PA and physician residents there are dry lab sessions available throughout their tenure where computer based exercises sharpen skills and record progress over time as well as mechanical trainers to practice intracorporeal suturing techniques in a three dimensional trainer viewed on a two-dimensional video screen (just as in the OR). The last three weeks of the didactic session are spent on the surgical service the PA resident will be assigned for his or her first month of the clinical session.

Clinical Program​

The clinical session is composed of eleven one-month rotations through three major urban hospitals. At the Jacobi Medical Center, a member of the New York City Health and Hospitals Corporation, serve in the area's largest and best-known Level One trauma center. They participate as surgical interns on the in-patient service learning to manage patients with both penetrating and blunt trauma.

In conjunction with their trauma experience the PAs spend an additional month at Jacobi as the surgical intern in the SICU. This combination of trauma and the SICU at a Level One urban Trauma Center truly sharpens skills needed to assess, diagnose and treat critically injured and fragile patients.

From Jacobi, the PA residents usually travel to the Weiler Division of the Montefiore Medical Center, a close geographic neighbor to Jacobi. At Weiler, the PA residents serve on the specialty care surgical service This service has varied in-patient population from pediatric (neonatal) to geriatric. Emphasis, as in all the surgical rotations, is on the preoperative care, inrtaoperative first assisting and postoperative management with appropriate in-patient care on the general floors or intensive care units. Participation at surgical clinics and follow-up office visits are also required.

Crossing the Bronx, the PA residents receive the majority of their surgical experience at the Moses Division of the Montefiore Medical Center. Here the PA residents serve for one month each on the Vascular Surgery Service, Pediatric Surgery, the Acute Care Service (covering patients admitted through the Emergency Department who need surgical care), the Adult Specialty Care Service (general surgery, endocrine surgery, bariatric surgery, liver/pancreatic surgery, oncologic surgery), Cardiothoracic Surgery and as the surgical PA intern in the Emergency Medicine Department. They also spend one month in the Surgical Intensive Care Unit (SICU).

Montefiore's Postgraduate Residency in Surgery is not only the first postgraduate training program but has stayed the test of time, continually graduating surgical physician assistants who rise to the challenges of surgical practice and remain involved on the national, state and local scene directing the role of the surgical PA. Taking the lead again, there has been a substantial increase in base salary ($50K per year over 14.5 months is approx $60K) as well as the institution of a "Graduation Bonus ($5K)" to be given to each member of the class upon completion of the full residency.
 
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What’s even worse is that PA residents are treated as fellows while interns are generally disrespected
 
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As long as we maintain the current model that fresh graduates of MD/DO schools can't obtain an independent license at graduation our class hierarchy will persist and we will continue to have blinders on for those outside this MD/DO structure.

Step 3/level 3 needs to end. Full independent licensure needs to be granted for medical graduates - no residency nor internship contingencies.

We continue to shackle our graduates we leave room for further expansion of midlevels.
 
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They come next for surgery.


MIMIS is a center of excellence to instruct surgeons, surgical residents (physician and PAs) in established laparoscopic techniques and to develop new techniques and instrumentation. For the PA and physician residents there are dry lab sessions available throughout their tenure where computer based exercises sharpen skills and record progress over time as well as mechanical trainers to practice intracorporeal suturing techniques in a three dimensional trainer viewed on a two-dimensional video screen (just as in the OR). The last three weeks of the didactic session are spent on the surgical service the PA resident will be assigned for his or her first month of the clinical session.

Clinical Program​

The clinical session is composed of eleven one-month rotations through three major urban hospitals. At the Jacobi Medical Center, a member of the New York City Health and Hospitals Corporation, serve in the area's largest and best-known Level One trauma center. They participate as surgical interns on the in-patient service learning to manage patients with both penetrating and blunt trauma.

In conjunction with their trauma experience the PAs spend an additional month at Jacobi as the surgical intern in the SICU. This combination of trauma and the SICU at a Level One urban Trauma Center truly sharpens skills needed to assess, diagnose and treat critically injured and fragile patients.

From Jacobi, the PA residents usually travel to the Weiler Division of the Montefiore Medical Center, a close geographic neighbor to Jacobi. At Weiler, the PA residents serve on the specialty care surgical service This service has varied in-patient population from pediatric (neonatal) to geriatric. Emphasis, as in all the surgical rotations, is on the preoperative care, inrtaoperative first assisting and postoperative management with appropriate in-patient care on the general floors or intensive care units. Participation at surgical clinics and follow-up office visits are also required.

Crossing the Bronx, the PA residents receive the majority of their surgical experience at the Moses Division of the Montefiore Medical Center. Here the PA residents serve for one month each on the Vascular Surgery Service, Pediatric Surgery, the Acute Care Service (covering patients admitted through the Emergency Department who need surgical care), the Adult Specialty Care Service (general surgery, endocrine surgery, bariatric surgery, liver/pancreatic surgery, oncologic surgery), Cardiothoracic Surgery and as the surgical PA intern in the Emergency Medicine Department. They also spend one month in the Surgical Intensive Care Unit (SICU).

Montefiore's Postgraduate Residency in Surgery is not only the first postgraduate training program but has stayed the test of time, continually graduating surgical physician assistants who rise to the challenges of surgical practice and remain involved on the national, state and local scene directing the role of the surgical PA. Taking the lead again, there has been a substantial increase in base salary ($50K per year over 14.5 months is approx $60K) as well as the institution of a "Graduation Bonus ($5K)" to be given to each member of the class upon completion of the full residency.

As a reminder to all those under the false belief that surgery is untouchable regarding midlevel encroachment.
 
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There's a large shortage of neurologists that's been going on for a long time - that's not new. Some of the differences with us and other specialties is:

1. Reliance on history/exam over testing/imaging makes it difficult to "fake" your way through, which turns off midlevels
2. Not a lot of med students are interested in neurology because, let's face it - the subject matter is not for everyone!
3. We can't pound through 50 patients/day like derm can because so much of what we do relies on a thorough history/exam, so neuro is just not as lucrative to VCs
When I talk about large moat separating the roles of physician and midlevel, I mean the roles are so different because of highly specialized skillset and knowledge, high risk of death or injury, legal requirements, etc that make it extremely difficult or impossible for a midlevel to perform the physician’s role or at least fake it. That is the litmus test that any medical field needs to ask itself. For example, let’s use the classic example of surgery. Sure, you can have a midlevel assist or even harvest a vein or bone graft but can they perform surgery independently? Will any state, regulatory body, hospital, or insurance company allow a midlevel to independently perform a knee replacement, CABG, brain surgery, etc? No, because of the specialized knowledge and skills required as well as the patient can die on the table or be irreparable injured by an unqualified and incompetent individual. You can argue the same with other fields like radiology, pathology, radiation oncology, etc. Anesthesia could have been on this list if the anesthesiologists kept the field to themselves and didn’t foolishly sell out to the CRNA’s. Can you imagine getting a cancer diagnosis based on the interpretation of an independent NP working in pathology? Would you or the patient agree to undergo surgery, chemotherapy, and radiation treatments based on that report? I don’t think so. We all know that in clinical fields like primary care, ED, neurology, etc, our personal experiences and anecdotal evidence tell us that midlevels perform worse, are less efficient, often clueless, cost the healthcare system more overall, and have worse outcomes than physicians. However, it’s harder to show those differences to regulatory bodies and politicians than in surgery where death and complications are more immediate and easier to see. NP’s like to claim they are just as good as physicians, willing to live in the middle of nowhere, and cost less. We all know that those are lies that NP’s tell politicians to get state laws changed.

For what you describe above for neurology, there is no significant moat to keep out the marauding NP invaders. It doesn’t pass the litmus test.
 
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For example, let’s use the classic example of surgery. Sure, you can have a midlevel assist or even harvest a vein or bone graft but can they perform surgery independently? Will any state, regulatory body, hospital, or insurance company allow a midlevel to independently perform a knee replacement, CABG, brain surgery, etc? No, because of the specialized knowledge and skills required as well as the patient can die on the table or be irreparable injured by an unqualified and incompetent individual. You can argue the same with other fields like radiology, pathology, radiation oncology, etc.

While you are correct about neurology above there’s no magical intrinsic difference between other fields. Patients don’t care either way to know better (most of them don’t even really understand radiology and pathology are complex fields- for all they know a computer is “spitting out” a diagnosis or the PCP is doing it). And if a midlevel could be trained cheaper to do it 90% of the time without killing someone, the system will “shrug” and write off those 10% poor outcomes.

The only thing that prevents any field from being replaced by cheaper, poorly trained labor is lobbying, political action (laws) and public relations. We are losing on all 3 fronts.
 
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This happened near me. All the PA's hired have already quit, apparently.
I have never heard of overnight hospitalist surgeon. It's very common for IM hospitalist to admit all patients and take liability while surgery is consulted.

It looks like ECMC is ~150 bed hospital similar to my community site and surgeons are technically on call for emergencies but I have never seen them after 4 pm. Rarely they have an acute abdomen for which they schedule emergent surgery but I can see how admins try to save cost from paying high surgeon dollars per hour for non-opertive monitoring and choose to use midlevels instead.
 
Pick your poison-P/E, mid-level takeover, physician saturation, AI etc.

Plenty of neuro NPs at the stroke center which my group covers
My community hospital which is a stroke center doesn't even have Neuro NPs.we have tele-neurologist for 4 hrs a day 8-12 M-F only. So basically IM hospitalist go for stroke call downs in admitted patients and ED does for their patients with tele-neurologist. Now they have trained ICU NPs will be running rapid responses, codes and strokes.

Our dept is trying to save cost by decreasing hospitalist staffing and have more midlevels. This is a 150 bed hospital by owned by one of the CLINICs with no on-site intensivists, or neurologist after 6 pm.
 
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You don't need a neurology physical exam when you can just MRI a patient from head to toe.
You don't need a physician to do Neuro exam. The palce where I work which is one of the CLINICS have made neurology tele in all their community hospitals. RN does the Neuro exam which is pretty basic and neurologist is on the video camera.
 
I have never heard of overnight hospitalist surgeon. It's very common for IM hospitalist to admit all patients and take liability while surgery is consulted.

It looks like ECMC is ~150 bed hospital similar to my community site and surgeons are technically on call for emergencies but I have never seen them after 4 pm. Rarely they have an acute abdomen for which they schedule emergent surgery but I can see how admins try to save cost from paying high surgeon dollars per hour for non-opertive monitoring and choose to use midlevels instead.
Two things: first, it's EMCM; ECMC is in Buffalo, NY.

The bigger point, though, is, just because you've never seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen (the "fallacy of anecdote"). For example, over 10 years ago, at my first job after residency, there was a guy in the surgical group that only did nights and weekends. He took the call, and, if sx was needed, he did it. He was the last surgeon I've ever seen that took an appy to the OR on clinical only, without imaging. He did zero clinic, in exchange, full stop.

I'm just saying that it's not unprecedented or unfeasible.
 
So uhh...I'm about to start M1 this summer and I was really interested in EM until I read this thread and many others similar to it. I've seen so many people predict that "specialty X will be the next to fall" and "don't do specialty Y" etc. What are some good specialties to consider as I start school that will allow me to at least have a job when I finish residency? I've been trying to research this a lot, but I really just don't understand enough about the career-logistics side of medicine if I'm being honest.
 
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So uhh...I'm about to start M1 this summer and I was really interested in EM until I read this thread and many others similar to it. I've seen so many people predict that "specialty X will be the next to fall" and "don't do specialty Y" etc. What are some good specialties to consider as I start school that will allow me to at least have a job when I finish residency? I've been trying to research this a lot, but I really just don't understand enough about the career-logistics side of medicine if I'm being honest.

Complementary and Alternative Medicine.
 
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So uhh...I'm about to start M1 this summer and I was really interested in EM until I read this thread and many others similar to it. I've seen so many people predict that "specialty X will be the next to fall" and "don't do specialty Y" etc. What are some good specialties to consider as I start school that will allow me to at least have a job when I finish residency? I've been trying to research this a lot, but I really just don't understand enough about the career-logistics side of medicine if I'm being honest.

Outpatient Primary Care
 
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Outpatient Primary Care
If EM is set up for large scale midlevel expansion, outpatient primary care is, in my opinion, even more likely to be taken over by midlevels. It's like 95% all the patients we seen in the ED WITHOUT the actually sick patients.
 
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If EM is set up for large scale midlevel expansion, outpatient primary care is, in my opinion, even more likely to be taken over by midlevels. It's like 95% all the patients we seen in the ED WITHOUT the actually sick patients.

Doesn’t matter if you can start your own practice. Competent PCPs are going to outshine low level providers in independent practice every time and it will show.
 
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If EM is set up for large scale midlevel expansion, outpatient primary care is, in my opinion, even more likely to be taken over by midlevels. It's like 95% all the patients we seen in the ED WITHOUT the actually sick patients.
Very true.. one major difference is many people stick to their PCP and love their Dr XYZ but you don’t see patients going to ED once a month searching for Dr ABC.
 
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Doesn’t matter if you can start your own practice. Competent PCPs are going to outshine low level providers in independent practice every time and it will show.
Yes similar to cardiologist and oncologist. You have a brand value which hospital based specialist have never experienced. Patients follow their cardiologist, oncologist and PCP. Hospitals will keep these doctors (especially private practice) happy for their business.
 
Very true.. one major difference is many people stick to their PCP and love their Dr XYZ but you don’t see patients going to ED once a month searching for Dr ABC.
I have tons of patients in the ED who tell me they see their primary care "physician" regularly and I check their chart fo find it's actually a midlevel.

Patient's rarely die in a PCPs office. They never die acutely of hypertension, hyperlipidemia, diabetes. I'm not trying to disparage the great work that PCPs do, it really is a calling and requires a great deal of skill and training. But there's a reason why midlevels have infiltrated EM, as opposed to CT surgery... If EM was 100% a life or death situation, I think we would be way more protected. But given the amount of low acuity complaints we see, its very easy for someone with less training to take over. We are more of a primary care specialty than we are a Neurosurgery or CT surgery kind of specialty.

That being said, its the low acuity complaints seen by midlevels that terrify me the most. The epigastric pain discharged with GERD that is really having an MI, or the ovarian torsion with "gastroenteritis". But I guess these "misses", while inexcusable, are considered so scarce amongst an overwhelming sea of low acuity nonsense that comes through the ED that it doesn't carry the same weight.

If a midlevel surgeon (doesn't really exist from what I've seen, but just go with it) does 10 appys in a month and 1 of them dies, that's a big deal. If a midlevel EM provider sees 150 patients in a month and 1 of them dies, while it's a big deal, it doesn't seem to catch the attention of as many administrators because, "look at how much money we saved!". These numbers are purely made up and may not reflect reality at all, but I think it illustrates the point.
 
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Doesn’t matter if you can start your own practice. Competent PCPs are going to outshine low level providers in independent practice every time and it will show.
I mean, I agree with this point, but I don't think it matters. Competent EM physicians can outshine midlevels any day... and look at the mess we are in. It doesn't matter if we provide better care if we are more expensive. Our healthcare system is so effed.
 
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except those EPs are not practicing independently, and neither are the midlevels working with them. You can work as a PCP and not hire midlevels, and you'll be fine.
 
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Its also worthy of mention that PLPs in the outpatient world are turbodumb.
Seriously, after having so many bad interactions with them on so many occasions.
 
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I mean, I agree with this point, but I don't think it matters. Competent EM physicians can outshine midlevels any day... and look at the mess we are in. It doesn't matter if we provide better care if we are more expensive. Our healthcare system is so effed.

It wouldn't be this way without administrative greed. There. There's the real problem; right there.
 
I’ve been seeing these subtle “pcp is too easy it’ll be taken over by midlevels lol” posts since my premed days. Nothing changed. They’re thriving now just as they were then

Having your own patients and not having hospitals having you by the blls is the key
 
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I have never heard of overnight hospitalist surgeon. It's very common for IM hospitalist to admit all patients and take liability while surgery is consulted.

It looks like ECMC is ~150 bed hospital similar to my community site and surgeons are technically on call for emergencies but I have never seen them after 4 pm. Rarely they have an acute abdomen for which they schedule emergent surgery but I can see how admins try to save cost from paying high surgeon dollars per hour for non-opertive monitoring and choose to use midlevels instead.
Larger hospitals have them. We have 2 surgeons in-house 24/7 (trauma and acute care/general). We're so busy that they stay in the hospital overnight. It's basically a hospitalist surgeon philosophy.

We also have a hospitalist urologist M-F 7-5. He doesn't see patients in the clinic. Only sees consults in the hospital/ER.
 
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National Academy of Medicine (NAM) calls for PAYMENT PARITY for Nurse Practitioners



AANP Applauds National Academy of Medicine Recommendations for Future of Nursing

The whole ****ing point, if there ever was one, was to have np’s provide cost effective care for low acuity conditions.

Now the game has switched to lobbying for pay parity, so that they can open up dermatology clinics with physician pay and pay for CEO bonuses.

The academy of medicine is playing along like a bunch of imbecile ****s.
 
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It wouldn't be this way without administrative greed. There. There's the real problem; right there.
Admin gonna admin. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

The real problem is when government threw docs under the bus by banning hospital ownership, and showered health systems with buckets of cash, while paying mere pennies to independent practices. What other outcome can one expect when the same service is paid an order of magnitude more when done in a hospital compared to independent clinics?
 
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Admin gonna admin. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

The real problem is when government threw docs under the bus by banning hospital ownership, and showered health systems with buckets of cash, while paying mere pennies to independent practices. What other outcome can one expect when the same service is paid an order of magnitude more when done in a hospital compared to independent clinics?
Yup. It’s BS that Envision gets way more for a midlevel to see a patient than doc in a democratic group whose contracts aren’t nearly as lucrative.
 
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Yes similar to cardiologist and oncologist. You have a brand value which hospital based specialist have never experienced. Patients follow their cardiologist, oncologist and PCP. Hospitals will keep these doctors (especially private practice) happy for their business.
There is an extent of brand value which I completely agree with but the days of docs owning the patients is a fallacy. It all depends on the carriers and employers. If the carriers take a doc out of network or employer change carrier, your doc may not be a preferred provider which will prompt most to find a new specialists.

Years ago, for our 2nd kid our insurance carrier took our OB out of network. Our choice was to keep the OB and pay an extra 5K in deductible or find another OB in network and pay 1K in deductible. We chose to pay the extra 5K but I highly doubt many pts would do this.
 
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There is an extent of brand value which I completely agree with but the days of docs owning the patients is a fallacy. It all depends on the carriers and employers. If the carriers take a doc out of network or employer change carrier, your doc may not be a preferred provider which will prompt most to find a new specialists.

Years ago, for our 2nd kid our insurance carrier took our OB out of network. Our choice was to keep the OB and pay an extra 5K in deductible or find another OB in network and pay 1K in deductible. We chose to pay the extra 5K but I highly doubt many pts would do this.
Dropping of physicians or large health systems by insurers is relatively rare. Does it happen? Sure, but it's not something that is common enough to completely negate the influence of physician movement on patient movement. I'm a medical specialist that offers "longitudinal care," and I would estimate that 5% of my patients switch every year due to insurance changes. This may even be lower for some specialties who carry more Medicare patients.
Especially in more competitive markets where multiple health systems are desperately trying to gain or hold onto market share, even a modest flux of patients to a competitor becomes untenable.

Again, this isn't absolute, but from the viewpoint of the employer, just the mere threat of SOME patients following their doc is enough to soften their stance when negotiations occur.
 
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