Elijah McLain

[Matty44]

Innocent until proven guilty?

Funny you should say that.

Because the whole content of this post is about Elijah, a kid who was treated in every way possible as “guilty” until proven innocent. And what did that result in?

Oh yeah, his death.

Think before you type.

And you sound defensive as hell. I have read your posts. All of them. And you seem to completely be on the cops’ side and don’t even question their “truth” as if they are infallible beings.

Considering how cameras have now caught quite a few them lying time and time again to cover their asses and that their lies can lead to peoples’ death, it’s amazing that all of us aren’t questioning EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM each time someone dies or is maimed.

This is not the same as a little white lie that leads to someone getting ripped off for a few bucks. This is life and death. No coming back from that.

*****But of course it’s a little white lie when it’s not that big of a lie. I wonder what it is when it is a big ass lie that leads to irreversible consequences like death? Is it called a little black lie?
Hmm. Where did this saying come from anyway?

I absolutely think before I type. Do you?

Elijah was treated in every way possible as guilty huh? He was treated as suspicious, which is what someone reported him as. As I’ve stated ad nauseam, whether or not the person should’ve called him in as suspicious or not, it was the cops responsibility to investigate a call they got. Most innocent people when asked to stop by the cops would stop and talk calmly with them. Elijah didn’t. He refused to stop, and then refused to calm down and talk with the cops, then things got aggressive and he reached for a cops gun. Not saying he was guilty of something prior to the cops coming, but he absolutely did not cooperate with the police, and HE was the one that initiated the escalation. Watch the video. The cops were very calm and polite with him. They were asking him in a calm voice to please calm down and even addressed him as ‘sir.’ If he had acted in a polite, calm manner from the start as well, nothing would’ve happened. Deny it all you want, but that’s the truth.

Watch how the cops initially talk to him. Watch the reaction on their faces when they hear he coded in the ambulance. Listen to the cops ask each other if they are making sure he can breathe when he’s on the ground. None of those cops set out to hurt him cause of his race.

You think if Elijah was white and had refused to stop for the police when they pulled up and asked him to stop, the cops woulda just let him walk away? Race was not a factor here, personal actions were. As other have stated, comply with the cops. Be polite. Be calm. If wrongly arrested, take it up with the courts.

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[Matty44]

*****But of course it’s a little white lie when it’s not that big of a lie. I wonder what it is when it is a big ass lie that leads to irreversible consequences like death? Is it called a little black lie?
Hmm. Where did this saying come from anyway?

Wow. Well ya just proved my point from earlier. Why the dire need to insert race into anything and everything and throw one more match into the racism bonfire? You HONESTLY think that “little white lie” has racist implications?

What’s next? Wedding dresses?

Goodness.

 

[deleted480308]

They are NOT free. They tend to cost money. Where are you living that lawyers are free?

Defense attorneys are free, are we talking about the same thing?

If you mean civil attorneys, they will usually work on commission if you have a reasonable case

 

[Matty44]

Totally wasted breath (or rather, keystrokes). Matty just blanket ignores data on disproportionate killing of unarmed blacks because he can only knock down strawmen that no one in this thread are actually claiming--- strawmen like all cops are outwardly racist or all cops are trigger happy murderers. This is the same "logic" he employs so that he doesn't have to acknowledge something exists unless it's so exaggerated or obviously blatant that it's slapping him in the face, e.g. like his claim that trump couldn't possibly racist because he hasn't met some absurd burden of proof like seeing him wear a white hood or say the n-word, or that trump couldn't possibly be a misogynist because there's not a video of each time trump committed sexual misconduct against 25 women/.

You sure like to put words in people’s mouth.

And I blanket ignore the data? I think we had a thorough discussion about the data...but I just blanket ignore it all. K.

 

[AMEHigh]

Did you all read the transcript of the 911 call?
The caller said that Elijah was wearing a mask and kept raising his hands.
There was no mention of a crime. There was no mention of him harming anyone. Nothing.
There was no reason for the police to detain him AT ALL. Zero, none. You are allowed to walk down the street with a mask on and raise your arms.
There is no reasonable assumption that he was committing a crime, which is what needs to happen for someone to be detained.

And then lets think about what comes after being detained and then arrested....
So for privileged people might not be a big deal, get detained and released the next day and talk with a lawyer, but not everyone is so privileged.
Lawyers are not free. If someone is unlawfully detained, there isn't a brigade of lawyers calling you the next day to offer their services for free.
Sandra Bland was detained and somehow ended up dead.
Khalief Browder was arrested, never convicted of a crime yet spent THREE years in jail, to eventually die by suicide.
Many people have jobs and if they miss work they'll get fired, so being detained in jail for a day or 2 can be detrimental to them.
What about the trauma it causes of being harrassed and unlawfully detained or arrested by the police?

So no, police officers can't just detain and arrest whoever they want and then people act like it's no big deal just talk to a lawyer. WTF.
The whole system needs to be overhauled for everyone.
Yep a mask is ruining or freedoms, but the police aren't.

 

[Matty44]

Did you all read the transcript of the 911 call?
The caller said that Elijah was wearing a mask and kept raising his hands.
There was no mention of a crime. There was no mention of him harming anyone. Nothing.
There was no reason for the police to detain him AT ALL. Zero, none. You are allowed to walk down the street with a mask on and raise your arms.
There is no reasonable assumption that he was committing a crime, which is what needs to happen for someone to be detained.

And then lets think about what comes after being detained and then arrested....
So for privileged people might not be a big deal, get detained and released the next day and talk with a lawyer, but not everyone is so privileged.
Lawyers are not free. If someone is unlawfully detained, there isn't a brigade of lawyers calling you the next day to offer their services for free.
Sandra Bland was detained and somehow ended up dead.
Khalief Browder was arrested, never convicted of a crime yet spent THREE years in jail, to eventually die by suicide.
Many people have jobs and if they miss work they'll get fired, so being detained in jail for a day or 2 can be detrimental to them.
What about the trauma it causes of being harrassed and unlawfully detained or arrested by the police?

So no, police officers can't just detain and arrest whoever they want and then people act like it's no big deal just talk to a lawyer. WTF.
The whole system needs to be overhauled for everyone.
Yep a mask is ruining or freedoms, but the police aren't.

Would you say Elijah deserved any of the blame for how things played out? Or was it 100% the cops fault for how things turned out?

 

[nimbus]

Defense attorneys are free, are we talking about the same thing?

If you mean civil attorneys, they will usually work on commission if you have a reasonable case

Overwhelmed public defenders are free. People cash out their retirements and sell their houses for a good defense attorney if they don’t have the police union to foot the bill.

 

[doctalaughs]

Come over to my house I have a new game to play.

I've been practicing and practicing and practicing.

It's really important to me.

My parents showed me how to play and I don't want to let them down.

Oh you've never played before, here are the quick and dirty rules, Ok lets play

Hmmm.. I win. You lost. I must just be naturally better than you..

What are you even talking about? I never said any group was “naturally” better. I just said certain cultural and upbringing circumstances are just as powerful (maybe more) than simply poverty.

If I’m better at the game of life and succeeding in this society, wouldn’t you want to figure out why and how to emulate that, rather than always pointing at why you are a victim and failing? Seems pretty straightforward.

 

[Mad Jack]

Would you say Elijah deserved any of the blame for how things played out? Or was it 100% the cops fault for how things turned out?

This is like saying, "would you say it was 100% the fault of the rapist, or did the woman have some blame?" Blaming victims is horrible behavior, always

 

[Matty44]

This is like saying, "would you say it was 100% the fault of the rapist, or did the woman have some blame?" Blaming victims is horrible behavior, always

No. No it’s not like saying that at all. But nice false equivalency.

 

[Mad Jack]

No. No it’s not like saying that at all. But nice false equivalency.

It's exactly like that. You just don't see it that way because you're inclined to side with the perpetrators

 

[chocomorsel]

Defense attorneys are free, are we talking about the same thing?

If you mean civil attorneys, they will usually work on commission if you have a reasonable case

We are talking about different things maybe. I am talking about litigators to sue the cops for wrongful treatment or wrongful whatever.
However, since you brought up public defenders, how do rich people use public defenders?
How many innocent people have been wrongfully convicted because all they had access to was an overworked, inexperienced, underpaid public defender?

 

[Hoya11]

What are you even talking about? I never said any group was “naturally” better. I just said certain cultural and upbringing circumstances are just as powerful (maybe more) than simply poverty.

If I’m better at the game of life and succeeding in this society, wouldn’t you want to figure out why and how to emulate that, rather than always pointing at why you are a victim and failing? Seems pretty straightforward.

But you are only succeeding because you set up the rules and system in your favor.. that is the point

 

[chocomorsel]

Wow. Well ya just proved my point from earlier. Why the dire need to insert race into anything and everything and throw one more match into the racism bonfire? You HONESTLY think that “little white lie” has racist implications?

What’s next? Wedding dresses?

Goodness.

That’s called Sarcasm. It’s something I have never thought about it, never looked up, but am wondering about given today’s climate.
What’s your point again?

 

[Matty44]

That’s called Sarcasm. It’s something I have never thought about it, never looked up, but am wondering about given today’s climate.
What’s your point again?

My point was that some people seem to have an odd desire to find racism in anything and everything. If that was truly sarcasm, I’m glad.

 

[Matty44]

It's exactly like that. You just don't see it that way because you're inclined to side with the perpetrators

No, it’s not.

Rape is a crime.

Cops investigating a suspicious person report and finding an uncooperative person, and then that situation escalating to the point where the uncooperative person is reaching for an officer’s gun and therefore the person is taken down the ground and restrained using approved police tactics is not a crime.

 

[vector2]

He refused to stop, and then refused to calm down and talk with the cops, then things got aggressive and he reached for a cops gun.

No actual crime or suspicion of a crime precipitated the stop. Even the 911 caller said they didnt think he was armed or a threat. They stopped him for being weird however stop-and-identify really needs bonafide suspicion of a crime to be valid constitutionally.

Things got aggressive because the cops made things aggressive against a 140 lb oddball pacifist vegetarian massage therapist.

And of course because you're the king of disingenuity you leave out that the cops have only alleged he went for a gun- there is no actual proof. Not to mention, the cop in question even says on tape he doesn't remember feeling anyone go for his gun.

 

[doctalaughs]

This is like saying, "would you say it was 100% the fault of the rapist, or did the woman have some blame?" Blaming victims is horrible behavior, always

That’s a ridiculous analogy but I wasn’t even blaming with my statement....

Do individuals have zero self-determination or responsibility over their actions in your world-view? Or is everything 100% determined by others and a “biased” system.

 

[deleted480308]

We are talking about different things maybe. I am talking about litigators to sue the cops for wrongful treatment or wrongful whatever.
However, since you brought up public defenders, how do rich people use public defenders?
How many innocent people have been wrongfully convicted because all they had access to was an overworked, inexperienced, underpaid public defender?

Those lawyers are the commission based ones I referenced

 

[chocomorsel]

Would you say Elijah deserved any of the blame for how things played out? Or was it 100% the cops fault for how things turned out?

100% the cops. All day every.

Those lawyers are the commission based ones I referenced

What are commissioned based defenders?

 

[Matty44]

No actual crime or suspicion of a crime precipitated the stop. Even the 911 caller said they didnt think he was armed or a threat. They stopped him for being weird however stop-and-identify really needs bonafide suspicion of a crime to be valid constitutionally.

Things got aggressive because the cops made things aggressive against a 140 lb oddball pacifist vegetarian massage therapist.

And of course because you're the king of disingenuity you leave out that the cops have only alleged he went for a gun- there is no actual proof. Not to mention, the cop in question even says on tape he doesn't remember feeling anyone go for his gun.

No actual crime or suspicion of a crime precipitated the stop. Even the 911 caller said they didnt think he was armed or a threat. They stopped him for being weird however stop-and-identify really needs bonafide suspicion of a crime to be valid constitutionally.

Things got aggressive because the cops made things aggressive against a 140 lb oddball pacifist vegetarian massage therapist.

And of course because you're the king of disingenuity you leave out that the cops have only alleged he went for a gun- there is no actual proof. Not to mention, the cop in question even says on tape he doesn't remember feeling anyone go for his gun.

It’s odd that a pacifist would be yelling at the cops and being uncooperative...

I’ve said ‘allegedly’ countless times in this thread already. I know ya gotta justify your insults to your self, but just simmer down a bit.

And you say “Not to mention, the cop in question even says on tape he doesn't remember feeling anyone go for his gun” like this is a new point you’re making. You’ve said this like 6 times already, and it has been addressed multiple times.

And the only disingenuous thing is your comments about him being a vegetarian pacifist, like that’s at all relevant to anything. Almost as bad as this headline

Plays at emotion like this, and like your comments, have no place in investigations and legal matters. They are only meant to tug at the heartstrings of people and to sway public opinion in a direction opposite of the facts.

 

[Matty44]

100% the cops. All day every.

So I believe you are black, correct? If you were in Elijah’s shoes, you think the outcome would be identical? Would you have acted any differently than he did?

 

[AMEHigh]

That’s a ridiculous analogy but I wasn’t even blaming with my statement....

Do individuals have zero self-determination or responsibility over their actions in your world-view? Or is everything 100% determined by others and a “biased” system.

Elijah's self-determination is not what killed him. Being "weird" is not a crime and certainly isn't punishable by death.
If you don't think that centuries of racism along with lack of education (or denial) about that history shapes anything about how the country operates today then that is pretty ignorant. Do you not think the history of any countries shape how things are in those countries today?
Me being a doctor hasn't stopped me from being called the N word so far, so no I don't think there's anything I could do to change how certain people see me. That's especially true for Black boys and men. But I'm still proud to be Black and wouldn't change a thing about myself.
As far as the police go, they traumatize and kill far too many people in general in this country regardless of race, not sure why anyone would agree with their tactics.

 

[nimbus]

No, it’s not.

Rape is a crime.

Cops investigating a suspicious person report and finding an uncooperative person, and then that situation escalating to the point where the uncooperative person is reaching for an officer’s gun and therefore the person is taken down the ground and restrained using approved police tactics is not a crime.

If they’re looking for rapists, the police need to profile male college students and should be all over college campuses but I don’t ever see that happening. It’s a completely different justice system for that group.

Campus Sexual Violence: Statistics | RAINN

College-age women, ages 18-24, are at an elevated risk of sexual violence.

www.rainn.org

 

[vector2]

It’s odd that a pacifist would be yelling at the cops and being uncooperative...

I’ve said ‘allegedly’ countless times in this thread already. I know ya gotta justify your insults to your self, but just simmer down a bit.

And you say “Not to mention, the cop in question even says on tape he doesn't remember feeling anyone go for his gun” like this is a new point you’re making. You’ve said this like 6 times already, and it has been addressed multiple times.

And the only disingenuous thing is your comments about him being a vegetarian pacifist, like that’s at all relevant to anything. Almost as bad as this headlineView attachment 312440

Plays at emotion like this, and like your comments, have no place in investigations and legal matters. They are only meant to tug at the heartstrings of people and to sway public opinion in a direction opposite of the facts.

Lol, "uncooperative" and being loud because your rights are being violated since no crime has been committed is not mutually exclusive with being a pacifist or non-violent, and being described as a pacifist by numerous other people is not only relevant to the case at hand, it lends credence to the assertion that it's extremely unlikely he would've escalated the officer-initiated physicality of the situation unnecessarily (unless say he were provoked or [as retrospectively turned out to be quite a legitimate concern], he feared for his life). Seriously, stop being a hack for like 5 seconds and get a clue.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

We are talking about different things maybe. I am talking about litigators to sue the cops for wrongful treatment or wrongful whatever.
However, since you brought up public defenders, how do rich people use public defenders?
How many innocent people have been wrongfully convicted because all they had access to was an overworked, inexperienced, underpaid public defender?

Public defenders are available for everyone. Bill Gates could use one if he was arrested and wanted to.

The sad state of our public defenders is a whole other topic.

100% the cops. All day every.

What a commissioned based defenders?

If you are going to sue someone, very frequently lawyers will do the work for a percentage of the award if you win. That's almost universally how malpractice attorneys work. Sometimes they want a retainer, often times not.

 

[chocomorsel]

Those lawyers are the commission based ones I referenced

So say I get arrested because someone saw a black woman who’s profile I fit rob someone let’s say with a gun. I get pulled over, roughed up, thrown in the slammer overnight because it’s 8pm and I can’t get a hold of a lawyer.
The next morning, I have been locked up for 14 hours, missed work, maybe fired or suspended because I didn’t call in, since you know, I get one phone call, and I used it to call my husband or brother or sister or mom or dad, or cousin to find me a lawyer he’s been working diligently to get me one but was unsuccessful till the next morning when he used up our $1k in savings and got me a lawyer who was able to get me out of jail till my trial.
In the meantime, I now have no job, am bruised on face and torso because I was slammed and shoved on the ground, had cops feeling me up all the way to my crotch for a gun and and am possibly facing criminal charges. A week later they arrest the real criminal and my charges get dropped.

And now weeks later as my life is derailing due to my wrongful arrest, I want to sue the cops for harrassment and assault. My bruises are healed, but I am still jobless and our savings are gone between the lawyer fees and the bond. I am now living on unemployment instead of my decent 30k salary because the economy sucks and I haven’t yet found a job. No one died, no one was left permanently injured although now I have PTSD and afraid of being pulled over and having the same scenario happen.

How easy would it be for me to find a lawyer to take me on retainer? Without permanent injury? With me alive?

Many of you don’t realize how one wrong move by a cop could derail someone’s entire life. Someone most likely poor, most likely a minority. Even if it means the person lives, they are traumatized, they can lose their job and their savings, possibly end up in jail anyway. There have been cases where the DA didn’t drop charges on the wrong man even after another man confessed was put in jail for said crime. The DAs work very closely with cops. And often don’t care about the truth as much as they care about putting supposed “criminals” in jail and getting re-elected. Look at Harry Connick Senior as an example.

But we are just supposed to go along with it and get a lawyer later.

It’s not that simple. This **** needs to stop.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

If they’re looking for rapists, the police need to profile male college students and should be all over college campuses but I don’t ever see that happening. It’s a completely different justice system for that group.

Campus Sexual Violence: Statistics | RAINN

College-age women, ages 18-24, are at an elevated risk of sexual violence.

www.rainn.org

That's an interesting article. Men 18-24 in college are more likely to be victims of sexual assault compared to the same age not in college while women are the opposite. I don't know what to make of that.

 

[Mad Jack]

No, it’s not.

Rape is a crime.

Cops investigating a suspicious person report and finding an uncooperative person, and then that situation escalating to the point where the uncooperative person is reaching for an officer’s gun and therefore the person is taken down the ground and restrained using approved police tactics is not a crime.

Your takes are going to look great when some internet archaeologists are looking up examples of just how awful the takes were in early 21st century America

That’s a ridiculous analogy but I wasn’t even blaming with my statement....

Do individuals have zero self-determination or responsibility over their actions in your world-view? Or is everything 100% determined by others and a “biased” system.

You don't blame victims. Doing so is a miscarriage of justice

 

[chocomorsel]

Public defenders are available for everyone. Bill Gates could use one if he was arrested and wanted to.

The sad state of our public defenders is a whole other topic.



If you are going to sue someone, very frequently lawyers will do the work for a percentage of the award if you win. That's almost universally how malpractice attorneys work. Sometimes they want a retainer, often times not.

But it depends on how much they believe they will win or how much they think they can extract from the other side. It has to be worse their while. They aren’t all just a bunch of good samaritans going to sue for 50k of damages.
And yeah, the sad state of our public defenders often ends up landing innocent poor people in jail.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

So say I get arrested because someone saw a black woman who’s profile I fit rob someone let’s say with a gun. I get pulled over, roughed up, thrown in the slammer overnight because it’s 8pm and I can’t get a hold of a lawyer.
The next morning, I have been locked up for 14 hours, missed work, maybe fired or suspended because I didn’t call in, since you know, I get one phone call, and I used it to call my husband or brother or sister or mom or dad, or cousin to find me a lawyer he’s been working diligently to get me one but was unsuccessful till the next morning when he used up our $1k in savings and got me a lawyer who was able to get me out of jail till my trial.
In the meantime, I now have no job, am bruised on face and torso because I was slammed and shoved on the ground, had cops feeling me up all the way to my crotch for a gun and and am possibly facing criminal charges. A week later they arrest the real criminal and my charges get dropped.

And now weeks later as my life is derailing due to my wrongful arrest, I want to sue the cops for harrassment and assault. My bruises are healed, but I am still jobless and our savings are gone between the lawyer fees and the bond. I am now living on unemployment instead of my decent 30k salary because the economy sucks and I haven’t yet found a job. No one died, no one was left permanently injured although now I have PTSD and afraid of being pulled over and having the same scenario happen.

How easy would it be for me to find a lawyer to take me on retainer? Without permanent injury? With me alive?

Many of you don’t realize how one wrong move by a cop could derail someone’s entire life. Someone most likely poor, most likely a minority. Even if it means the person lives, they are traumatized, they can lose their job and their savings, possibly end up in jail anyway. There have been cases where the DA didn’t drop charges on the wrong man even after another man confessed was put in jail for said crime. The DAs work very closely with cops. And often don’t care about the truth as much as they care about putting supposed “criminals” in jail and getting re-elected. Look at Harry Connick Senior as an example.

But we are just supposed to go along with it and get a lawyer later.

It’s not that simple. This **** needs to stop.

If your mug shot/next day doctor visit has evidence of assault and the (should be) required body cams show you not resisting, I'd bet finding a lawyer to take that case wouldn't be all that hard.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

But it depends on how much they believe they will win or how much they think they can extract from the other side. It has to be worse their while. They aren’t all just a bunch of good samaritans going to sue for 50k of damages.
And yeah, the sad state of our public defenders often ends up landing innocent poor people in jail.

Actually yes they will. One of the richest lawyers in town here takes on all the small stuff. His average court settlement is 65k. He just does several of those/week.

 

[nimbus]

That's an interesting article. Men 18-24 in college are more likely to be victims of sexual assault compared to the same age not in college while women are the opposite. I don't know what to make of that.

My guess is that college kids are frequently under the influence and have poor impulse control.

 

[chocomorsel]

So I believe you are black, correct? If you were in Elijah’s shoes, you think the outcome would be identical? Would you have acted any differently than he did?

I don’t know as I am a black woman who’s sick of how this country treats black and brown people.
I totally would have resisted if I felt that I did nothing wrong.
Also, I am not autistic so I can pull out my phone and have a decent argument with the cops before they push me on the ground.
Of course they may shoot me down as soon as I attempt to dig for my phone since they likely would think I am reaching for a gun even if given a warning that I am reaching for my

So the answer to your question is, I don’t know. I may very well have ended up like Elijah. The outcome could very easily end up like Elijah. The only thing for me that helps my situation is the fact that I am a woman and therefore cops tend to perceive me as “less” of a threat. But I have male family members.

 

[chocomorsel]

Actually yes they will. One of the richest lawyers in town here takes on all the small stuff. His average court settlement is 65k. He just does several of those/week.

How easy are these people to find? How informed is the public about these lawyers?

 

[chocomorsel]

If your mug shot/next day doctor visit has evidence of assault and the (should be) required body cams show you not resisting, I'd bet finding a lawyer to take that case wouldn't be all that hard.

Really? For a poor black woman? Hope you are right but I doubt it.

I am also going to let you know that even though people of color are finally fed up and are overtly fighting back NOW, there has been a culture in the black community that injustice against us is just part of life. And if you attempt to fight back, worse things will come. So better count your blessings that they didn’t kill you, accept the injustice of being a minority and being occasionally or often mistreated and move forward because they could always hurt you more.

Obviously that stems from the overtly racist past that people know about I hope. When people of color and some white people who attempted to fight back were killed.

That culture and belief in the minority is difficult to change. A lot of bad things happen to minorities that comes people in power that is never reported and justice never pursued . It’s just part of life for the large majority of people of color.

 

[AMEHigh]

I wonder how many white male doctors posting on here have gotten mistaken for a nurse, hospital transport, hospital meal service, or patient care tech on more than 1 occasion or regularly?
I've been asked or assumed I was all of the above pretty regularly. So again, no self-determination does not always determine how others perceive each other.

 

[deleted480308]

I don’t know as I am a black woman who’s sick of how this country treats black and brown people.
I totally would have resisted if I felt that I did nothing wrong.
Also, I am not autistic so I can pull out my phone and have a decent argument with the cops before they push me on the ground.
Of course they may shoot me down as soon as I attempt to dig for my phone since they likely would think I am reaching for a gun even if given a warning that I am reaching for my

So the answer to your question is, I don’t know. I may very well have ended up like Elijah. The outcome could very easily end up like Elijah. The only thing for me that helps my situation is the fact that I am a woman and therefore cops tend to perceive me as “less” of a threat. But I have male family members.

physically resisting is an effective way to really get hurt without any regard to race

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

How easy are these people to find? How informed is the public about these lawyers?

Given what this guy's ad budget is, probably pretty well informed...

 

[deleted480308]

I wonder how many white male doctors posting on here have gotten mistaken for a nurse, hospital transport, hospital meal service, or patient care tech on more than 1 occasion or regularly?
I've been asked or assumed I was all of the above pretty regularly. So again, no self-determination does not always determine how others perceive each other.

I have, don't know if that impacts your theory

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Really? For a poor black woman? Hope you are right but I doubt it.

I am also going to let you know that even though people of color are finally fed up and are overtly fighting back NOW, there has been a culture in the black community that injustice against us is just part of life. And if you attempt to fight back, worse things will come. So better count your blessings that they didn’t kill you, accept the injustice of being a minority and being occasionally or often mistreated and move forward because they could always hurt you more.

Obviously that stems from the overtly racist past that people know about I hope. When people of color and some white people who attempted to fight back were killed.

That culture and belief in the minority is difficult to change. A lot of bad things happen to minorities that comes people in power that is never reported and justice never pursued . It’s just part of life for the large majority of people of color.

It could easily be as you say, I would have little idea of course.

I guess my view is a combination of "this is how things should be" and "there's always a lawyer hungry enough to try".

 

[deleted480308]

So say I get arrested because someone saw a black woman who’s profile I fit rob someone let’s say with a gun. I get pulled over, roughed up, thrown in the slammer overnight because it’s 8pm and I can’t get a hold of a lawyer.
The next morning, I have been locked up for 14 hours, missed work, maybe fired or suspended because I didn’t call in, since you know, I get one phone call, and I used it to call my husband or brother or sister or mom or dad, or cousin to find me a lawyer he’s been working diligently to get me one but was unsuccessful till the next morning when he used up our $1k in savings and got me a lawyer who was able to get me out of jail till my trial.
In the meantime, I now have no job, am bruised on face and torso because I was slammed and shoved on the ground, had cops feeling me up all the way to my crotch for a gun and and am possibly facing criminal charges. A week later they arrest the real criminal and my charges get dropped.

And now weeks later as my life is derailing due to my wrongful arrest, I want to sue the cops for harrassment and assault. My bruises are healed, but I am still jobless and our savings are gone between the lawyer fees and the bond. I am now living on unemployment instead of my decent 30k salary because the economy sucks and I haven’t yet found a job. No one died, no one was left permanently injured although now I have PTSD and afraid of being pulled over and having the same scenario happen.

How easy would it be for me to find a lawyer to take me on retainer? Without permanent injury? With me alive?

Many of you don’t realize how one wrong move by a cop could derail someone’s entire life. Someone most likely poor, most likely a minority. Even if it means the person lives, they are traumatized, they can lose their job and their savings, possibly end up in jail anyway. There have been cases where the DA didn’t drop charges on the wrong man even after another man confessed was put in jail for said crime. The DAs work very closely with cops. And often don’t care about the truth as much as they care about putting supposed “criminals” in jail and getting re-elected. Look at Harry Connick Senior as an example.

But we are just supposed to go along with it and get a lawyer later.

It’s not that simple. This **** needs to stop.

I actually think if you had visible scarring it's pretty easy to get a lawyer to throw something at the cops..

I also think if you didn't physically resist (which you've said you would do) your odds of "getting roughed up" become almost non-existent

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I wonder how many white male doctors posting on here have gotten mistaken for a nurse, hospital transport, hospital meal service, or patient care tech on more than 1 occasion or regularly?
I've been asked or assumed I was all of the above pretty regularly. So again, no self-determination does not always determine how others perceive each other.

I know that's definitely a female thing. No idea if being a minority female makes it worse (though I'd be kinda surprised if it didn't unless the rate of it happening to white women is already 100% and it can't get worse).

 

[chocomorsel]

I actually think if you had visible scarring it's pretty easy to get a lawyer to throw something at the cops..

I also think if you didn't physically resist (which you've said you would do) your odds of "getting roughed up" become almost non-existent

You are right on the second part. Very right.
However, why should we continue to live in a system where we fear the cops? A system where they perceive us guilty until proven innocent? Whey they can harass us and rough us up just because we are walking while black and someone deems us suspicious while we are doing absolutely nothing.
And what if I had no physical scarring but still got roughed up? Then what? Should I be OK with someone pushing my face on the pavement and feeling me up while looking for a non existent weapon?
How long do you suppose we should continue to live in such a system? 10 years? 20 years? 50? 100? How long?

 

[nimbus]

I don’t know as I am a black woman who’s sick of how this country treats black and brown people.
I totally would have resisted if I felt that I did nothing wrong.
Also, I am not autistic so I can pull out my phone and have a decent argument with the cops before they push me on the ground.
Of course they may shoot me down as soon as I attempt to dig for my phone since they likely would think I am reaching for a gun even if given a warning that I am reaching for my

So the answer to your question is, I don’t know. I may very well have ended up like Elijah. The outcome could very easily end up like Elijah. The only thing for me that helps my situation is the fact that I am a woman and therefore cops tend to perceive me as “less” of a threat. But I have male family members.

Sandra Bland, say her name. It doesn’t always help to be a woman.

Her stop was pure harassment and it escalated from there. Guess you can increase your chance of survival by being meek and deferential.

Death of Sandra Bland - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[chocomorsel]

physically resisting is an effective way to really get hurt without any regard to race

Sandra Bland, say her name. It doesn’t always help to be a woman.

Her stop was pure harassment and it escalated from there. Guess you can increase your chance of survival by being meek and deferential.

Death of Sandra Bland - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Amen. Totally on the forefront of my mind.
Absolutely.

 

[chocomorsel]

It could easily be as you say, I would have little idea of course.

I guess my view is a combination of "this is how things should be" and "there's always a lawyer hungry enough to try".

“This is how things should be” is not the reality of black and brown minority life in this country.
I literally had a patients’ mother in tears today when she saw me and poured her heart out to me as I was pre-oping her son for tonsils. A Native American with a skin condition tell me, a perfect stranger, not her doctor, how poorly she’s been treated by white healthcare providers who’ve accused her of shooting up drugs, and refused to touch her when she went looking for help for her skin condition. Refused to even get near her and evaluate her. Literally started crying within five minutes of meeting me and telling me about the racism she’s experienced from the healthcare system. I looked at her kid who looked white and was thankful that he would likely never experience anything like this this since he’s pale and looks white.

And then had one of our nurses tell me how Native Americans just don’t seem to get how smoking and drinking and eating poorly leads to bad health. “They just don’t seem to get it” She said. And this is a nice nurse that I like. I said people in general don’t realize how bad food and smoking and drinking leads to poor outcome. Wasn’t about to have a whole discussion about how Natives ended up dirt poor on reservations that completely changed their way of life with this educated nurse.

That’s the reality for many minorities.

 

[AMEHigh]

I know that's definitely a female thing. No idea if being a minority female makes it worse (though I'd be kinda surprised if it didn't unless the rate of it happening to white women is already 100% and it can't get worse).

Yeah my white female co-residents would talk about being called a nurse, but never once did I hear them be called a tech or transport or bringing meals.

I never got mad at patients for saying those things, just would explain I’m the doctor. Better than when patients use the N word or say they don’t want to be seen by your! But goes to show that sometimes no matter what we do we’ll be perceived in a certain way, so yes others can determine our path in life.

 

[deleted480308]

You are right on the second part. Very right.
However, why should we continue to live in a system where we fear the cops? A system where they perceive us guilty until proven innocent? Whey they can harass us and rough us up just because we are walking while black and someone deems us suspicious while we are doing absolutely nothing.
And what if I had no physical scarring but still got roughed up? Then what? Should I be OK with someone pushing my face on the pavement and feeling me up while looking for a non existent weapon?
How long do you suppose we should continue to live in such a system? 10 years? 20 years? 50? 100? How long?

I think you are mixing messages here. I believe two things can both be true at the same time.

1) some cops/depts push citizen innappropriately hard and violate their rights by harassing them about non-criminal behavior
2) if that happens, you are far more likely to be safe and to successfully get revenge if you are calm and don’t fight back in the street

 

[chocomorsel]

I think you are mixing messages here. I believe two things can both be true at the same time.

1) some cops/depts push citizen innappropriately hard and violate their rights by harassing them about non-criminal behavior
2) if that happens, you are far more likely to be safe and to successfully get revenge if you are calm and don’t fight back in the street

Agreed on most of both your points.

However, getting “revenge” or justice for being roughed up and spending the night or two or three in jail is not easy.

Getting justice for being wrongfully arrested and convicted is even more difficult.

Jail is not fun. Jail is not a hotel. People get killed and hurt and neglected in jail. There is a reason people don’t want to hang out in jail.