Don't Let It Take Everything

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I'm going to guess that he had the cojones to say and do the right (but unpopular) things when it came down to it.

I made this mistake even as a resident. I got looked at like I was a child in a highchair that threw his spaghettios on the floor even though I have more life experience than half these clowns. Then after got a few emails and phone calls (of course nothing to my face).

Nobody cares about physicians, especially EM docs. If I even land a job I'm dumping as much as humanly possible into my loans to get out.

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I made this mistake even as a resident. I got looked at like I was a child in a highchair that threw his spaghettios on the floor even though I have more life experience than half these clowns. Then after got a few emails and phone calls (of course nothing to my face).

Nobody cares about physicians, especially EM docs. If I even land a job I'm dumping as much as humanly possible into my loans to get out.

I just paid off my loans last summer (350k+)
I have enough saved to last me a little while, but not all that long.
 
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I just paid off my loans last summer (350k+)
I have enough saved to last me a little while, but not all that long.
Smart. There are some funds you can invest in that pay ~8% dividends and have done so for 20+ years and are relatively stable. Put 1 million into those, and you have a stable $7K monthly income.
 
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Smart. There are some funds you can invest in that pay ~8% dividends and have done so for 20+ years and are relatively stable. Put 1 million into those, and you have a stable $7K monthly income.

What wondrous fund is this, and where can I sign up?
Is 7k enough for us all to retire on if we hit it?
 
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"Don't let it take everything."

Okay, here it comes. No joke.

I've been seeing a counselor/therapist privately for over 2 years now. 9 years in EM has really left its mark on me to say the least.
My guy is a combat-tested marine. 2 tours in Iraq. Blown up by a roadside IED. Lost a lot of his buddies.
He has a great way of putting things into perspective for me.

I tell him the stories about how people misbehave in the ER. Same ones that I tell you guys.
I tell him some of your stories.
I can't begin to tell you the number of times he has said to me: "Rusted... you have taught me that people in war-torn villages don't behave as poorly as Americans do in the ER."

Arcan57 posted earlier in this thread about how he recognized that he was beginning to hate everyone.
I don't know how far along he is in his career, but I'm willing to bet that I crossed the "finish line" of the "hate race" before he did.
That's not a race that you want to win.

I hated everyone that he listed. And more.
 
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Due to some fortunate investments, I am financially independent. Could retire, but I don't want to quit doing some sort of fulfilling work. Probably will be wanting to do some sort of work forever (currently a 30-something). I am 100% planning to exit EM within the next several years, as I find it more abusive and exploitative than any amount of fulfilling parts of it could make up for. Essentially just working to maintain my medical license at this point, because I'm not 100% sure that I want to exit medicine just yet. I have several potentially fulfilling entrepreneurial ideas that would allow me to work remotely from my favorite places and minimize my need to travel into population centers, which I dislike greatly. It will take a while to get these going, but I want complete autonomy. I am in an extremely fortunate position, but I am still deeply upset with what has become of the specialty. I wish I didn't have to leave. I am good at EM and well-liked at work. But I feel that I do have to leave. This is an unhealthy relationship. EM, and the healthcare system, are out of control. It causes me to rage. Internally while at work. Both internally and externally at home. I have to stop.
 
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Due to some fortunate investments, I am financially independent. Could retire, but I don't want to quit doing some sort of fulfilling work. Probably will be wanting to do some sort of work forever (currently a 30-something). I am 100% planning to exit EM within the next several years, as I find it more abusive and exploitative than any amount of fulfilling parts of it could make up for. Essentially just working to maintain my medical license at this point, because I'm not 100% sure that I want to exit medicine just yet. I have several potentially fulfilling entrepreneurial ideas that would allow me to work remotely from my favorite places and minimize my need to travel into population centers, which I dislike greatly. It will take a while to get these going, but I want complete autonomy. I am in an extremely fortunate position, but I am still deeply upset with what has become of the specialty. I wish I didn't have to leave. I am good at EM and well-liked at work. But I feel that I do have to leave. This is an unhealthy relationship. EM, and the healthcare system, are out of control. It causes me to rage. Internally while at work. Both internally and externally at home. I have to stop.


You can hit FIRE in a decade of EM, but it's hard. Good for you!
Pray tell us more....
 
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You can hit FIRE in a decade of EM, but it's hard. Good for you!
Pray tell us more....
I had no undergrad debt (full scholarships), went to a cheap med school and had no debt upon residency graduation, and made an investment a few years before medical school began that has paid off. I knew the right, extremely smart person who knew it would pay off and told me about it.
 
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I think 8% yield is junk bond territory. Treasury bonds are only @ 1.6%, 10 year.
 
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"Don't let it take everything."

Okay, here it comes. No joke.

I've been seeing a counselor/therapist privately for over 2 years now. 9 years in EM has really left its mark on me to say the least.
My guy is a combat-tested marine. 2 tours in Iraq. Blown up by a roadside IED. Lost a lot of his buddies.
He has a great way of putting things into perspective for me.

I tell him the stories about how people misbehave in the ER. Same ones that I tell you guys.
I tell him some of your stories.
I can't begin to tell you the number of times he has said to me: "Rusted... you have taught me that people in war-torn villages don't behave as poorly as Americans do in the ER."

Arcan57 posted earlier in this thread about how he recognized that he was beginning to hate everyone.
I don't know how far along he is in his career, but I'm willing to bet that I crossed the "finish line" of the "hate race" before he did.
That's not a race that you want to win.

I hated everyone that he listed. And more.
I’m a little less than 13 years along. I’m currently just chronically moderately burned out, not the acutely burned out of hating everyone.

ED docs and burn out are like sick kids and hypotension. We have so many compensatory mechanisms that there’s not a lot left by the time it’s obvious we’re in trouble. Humor and deflection serve us well. But it’s like the lead singer of Alice In Chains (yeah, I’m old) said, “Drugs worked well for me, until they didn’t.” So often we’ll attribute chronic problems to acute events. “I feel like crap because I had a short turnaround from nights” when it’s actually you have 2-3 short turnarounds every month and you spend 2-3 weeks every month on the wrong side of your circadian rhythm. We bitch about how long it takes to get one particular lab back while accumulating the stress from almost every patient taking too long to have meaningful information available. We get so used to nobody caring about us at work (“Get your loving at home”) that it becomes easy to stop caring about ourselves.

The hurt and the stress and the fear are baked into the job. You can find positions that feature varying degrees of these fundamental elements (at least on my current career path I’m never going to have to see another dead kid), but they’re not going away completely. So they’re not problems to be solved, they are dilemmas to be managed.

Managing these dilemmas means building a network of support that works for you and defending that network fiercely. Get a therapist. Hang out with docs from work. Keep up friendships with people that you look forward to seeing and that you feel better about yourself after seeing them. Talk to your family about what you need from them. Make the stakes clear and consider outsourcing things that need to be done but don’t have to be done by you. And be compassionate with yourself. You’re an amazing person who has achieved at an objectively impressive level. Give yourself authentic praise.

Replace the “but” in your own story with “and”. “I’m a good doctor, but I’m not connecting with my patients.” vs. “I’m a good doctor and I’d like to be better at connecting with my patients.”

Hope this helps somebody. And get a therapist (seriously).
 
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@GeneralVeers do you have an exit strategy?
I had a 5 year plan.....that's since been truncated to 1-2 years. My goal is 10K/month in passive income from investments like dividends. I do another side project with income (though might not be stable) and I'm starting my own telemedicine project.
 
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I’m a little less than 13 years along. I’m currently just chronically moderately burned out, not the acutely burned out of hating everyone.

ED docs and burn out are like sick kids and hypotension. We have so many compensatory mechanisms that there’s not a lot left by the time it’s obvious we’re in trouble. Humor and deflection serve us well. But it’s like the lead singer of Alice In Chains (yeah, I’m old) said, “Drugs worked well for me, until they didn’t.” So often we’ll attribute chronic problems to acute events. “I feel like crap because I had a short turnaround from nights” when it’s actually you have 2-3 short turnarounds every month and you spend 2-3 weeks every month on the wrong side of your circadian rhythm. We bitch about how long it takes to get one particular lab back while accumulating the stress from almost every patient taking too long to have meaningful information available. We get so used to nobody caring about us at work (“Get your loving at home”) that it becomes easy to stop caring about ourselves.

The hurt and the stress and the fear are baked into the job. You can find positions that feature varying degrees of these fundamental elements (at least on my current career path I’m never going to have to see another dead kid), but they’re not going away completely. So they’re not problems to be solved, they are dilemmas to be managed.

Managing these dilemmas means building a network of support that works for you and defending that network fiercely. Get a therapist. Hang out with docs from work. Keep up friendships with people that you look forward to seeing and that you feel better about yourself after seeing them. Talk to your family about what you need from them. Make the stakes clear and consider outsourcing things that need to be done but don’t have to be done by you. And be compassionate with yourself. You’re an amazing person who has achieved at an objectively impressive level. Give yourself authentic praise.

Replace the “but” in your own story with “and”. “I’m a good doctor, but I’m not connecting with my patients.” vs. “I’m a good doctor and I’d like to be better at connecting with my patients.”

Hope this helps somebody. And get a therapist (seriously).
I agree with all this. I'd add one thing. While it is good to hang out with fellow EM docs, who understand what you're going through, sometimes it's also great to hang out with people completely out of Medicine, too. That can sometimes offer a very fresh perspective, if talking about the negatives of work when hanging out with co-workers, becomes repetitive.
 
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I sent you the link. If something pays out a consistent dividend for 25 years then I think it's reasonably safe. Downside is you don't buy these kind of investments to see the price go up.
Ah... ok. Makes sense.

I got the link. Thank you very much. I'm researching it and will keep this in mind.
 
This is the lowest I’ve ever seen morale on this forum in over a decade, by far. It used to be that I was by far, the gloomiest, most negative on here. I think now, roles may have reversed. The unlikeliness of this, finally hit me.

And you guys aren’t just venting. I know you well enough to tell when your okay, but venting, versus truly down.

I’m going to have to think more about this. I have something helpful to say, I just don’t know what it is yet, or how to put it into words. I know that sounds weird, but it’s true.

I don’t know when, or how, but it’s going to get better.
I agree. I started to try to say something positive but it kept coming out about how I do like my extracurriculars (EMS and education). I'm having a lot of trouble saying something positive about working in the ED.

This is an industry wide problem. EM is hitting the crest of some significant issues right now but there aren't many anywhere in healthcare who are happy. I know that for me, unless I can abandon healthcare completely, EM is the best place I can be.
 
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Overall, I'm pretty harsh on those in this forum about the persistent doom and gloom outlook on things. For the first time though, I do agree with Birdstrike and I think there's a deeper pain here, beyond just the usual "I HATE NPs AND NEW RESIDENCY PROGRAMS". I'm glad that there's a place to talk about it.

I don't believe that disconnecting from the patient is the answer. Not to sound overly idealistic. But I think isolating yourself more from the very reason you went into this biz, is a recipe for worsening the situation. When you get disconnected/angry at the patients, it affects your interactions with them. More crappy patient satisfaction scores. Worse evaluations. More likely to be let go/fired. More likely to discharge someone prematurely and get sued. It's a downward spiral. There's this faulty sense of "protecting yourself" but in reality it does more harm. It's like taking one more drink to disconnect from the world. The problems are still there when you wake up from the hangover, except now you lost your wallet, got a tramp stamp tattoo, and cheated on your wife.

It's not easy by any means, especially in this climate.

Mentally and emotionally disconnecting from the job doesn't change the job. It doesn't make it more tolerable. It makes more upsetting when you wake up from the daydream and realize you are in the same awful situation. The patients aren't going to change. The hospitals aren't going to change (or at least any time soon). How we interact with all these players in the system is the only thing we have control over.

One of the biggest drivers of this unhappiness is the continued decreased pay, the feeling that you are expendable and replaceable. In the immediate circumstances, if you are feeling this unhappy about the predicament, it's okay to let yourself be replaced. Cut your hours. It won't be easy financially, your loans will take longer to pay back, but if you don't unplug and recharge, it doesn't matter how much money you make you'll still feel awful.

It's okay to walk away, and pursue something else (i.e. fellowship, consulting, business, etc), maybe for less pay. Maybe it'll take you an extra 10 years to retire. But you'll be a happier person, and a better spouse, parent, friend, coworker. Don't let the job own you. You don't owe anything to anyone other than yourself and your loved ones.
 
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Saw this shared on the RadOn forums yesterday. Written by a surgeon but very relevant for all specialties:


"We doctors, the engine which is moving the medical machine, have almost nothing to say; we have been reduced to peons. Of course, the patients, those for whom the machine actually exists, had never much to say, were forever peons. They were always led as herds to the water; the ignorant greedily buying the prevailing propaganda that “this is the best medical system in the world”; the wealthy (who by natural selection are a little more informed) understood, they still do, that money buys the best care. That it is if you are informed and lucky.

Managed by armies of administrators, managers, and hordes of non-medical parasites with a myriad of ridiculous titles printed on their name tags, they function like mammoth factories in China—albeit much less efficient. In fact, the hospitals’ pyramid has been now inverted: the supporting staff greatly outnumbers those who come in touch with the patients. In many smaller hospitals on any given day, there are more administrators in the hospital than patients.

Lip service to alleged excellence is the religion d’jour. We are the best, we are the center of excellence, we have the best doctors, the best technology, and we are the national leaders. And this optimistic message (ala’ the forced optimism prevailing in Soviet Russia of the 1920s) is pushed forward by trained masters of propaganda—look at the size of public relationship department in even small hospitals. Glossy brochures by mail, colorful internal newspapers in any small hospital, group pictures of smiling, satisfied nurses, letters from extremely satisfied patients, and “major news,” glorifying the new Vice President of Finance or broadcasting the important speech our CEO gave in the national meeting of hospitals managers. Like North Korea. Doctors have little significant role, if any, in the conduct of the hospital.

There is no much place for dissent. You are not happy with what you see, you see problems, you want to openly discuss areas of dysfunction or misconduct, then very soon you are marked as a “problem maker.” An enemy of the system. Your fate is decided behind closed doors. The “open” process is brief and unilateral. It is easy to manufacture accusations against you: doctor, you have been disruptive, didn’t you complain against the management? The head nurse in the emergency room (ER) reported hearing your ranting?

And once they decide to get rid of you, you have not many options. They always tell you: either you resign immediately or we will have to fire you. In that case, we will have to report you to the National Practitioner Data Bank (NPDB). Now, who would choose to be tattooed with such a permanent stain on one’s record? Who would want to embark on a costly and (usually futile) legal fight with the mighty hospital? Better sign the resignation, find another job, and move on. Doing so, you sign a secrecy term that you will never disclose to anyone why you left. You will never share the problems you have observed.

Yes, we doctors have now become “providers.” In many places, our services are performed or duplicated (so the TMS believes) by “allied providers”: nurse-practitioners/physician-assistants. This obviously benefits the TMS: first, allied providers are much cheaper to maintain; second, they are less confident, and thus tend to order numerous extensive investigations (great for the system!); third, they are easier to discipline and keep in line.

This is not new: emerging totalitarian systems always start with eliminating the elite, the intelligentsia. People who are able to think freely are perceived as enemies. Chop off their wings. In such system, there is only one higher class: that of the dictators and their cronies. All the rest are to feel non-significant and in constant fear.

The younger generation of docs did not know better times. They, the Nintendo kids, grew up in a politically correct environment, groomed to succeed. And they know how to succeed within the TMS (they do not know any other system): obey the rules, forge happiness, and be useful. They are used to be constantly monitored by the “big brother.” They do not have a problem being evaluated/scored by faulty and biased and costly and contra productive commercial systems aimed at showing what patients think about them.

As usual, there are docs who move over, becoming the politruks or apparatchiks for the TMS. We all know those types: once they are allowed to sit along the long conference oak table, once they are made privy to the systems’ secrets, they are charmed to become collaborators, forgetting the interests of their old buddies. Alleged power and the sensation of self-importance are addictive for some. Isn’t it better to be fed from the hands of the oligarchs than suffer with the plebs?

This all may sound to you superficial, crazy, subversive, exaggerated, and overly dark. Well, perhaps I have exaggerated a little. And of course out there are still islands or reserves of good medicine. We all know surgeons and doctors and even administrators (and hospitals) who keep the light glowing against the background of the darkening sky.

A general surgeon (I am not going to sign this document. I still need my job for a few years …)"
 
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I wish this were different world where one could talk about things that are bothering them without jacking up their life insurance, job applications, medical licensing, and disability insurance. But as far as it matters for me, everything is fine...
 
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This thread is so spot on. Yeah, I was working in an ED in a major metro at a job that I loved when I started, but eventually got so bad that I was just constantly on edge about being fired. Always getting told about my bad patient satisfaction scores. Every single one of these complaints btw were from frequent fliers who complained because I didn't give them opiates. Never had a single complaint from a legit patient ever. At one point my director actually threatened to make me do all nights if I didn't improve. Ridiculous. Of course, I stayed for a while and did what I could because I was worried I wouldn't get another job if I left. Then I got a complaint from someone I work with whom I happened to upset in a scenario where I was advocating for a patient. I know this is a bit vague, but I want to maintain my anonymity and that is the only reason Im not giving more detail on this. In spite of always getting along well with all of the nurses and other staff at this place for years, they decided that I was at fault in this instance too and put me on a formal discipline plan. By this point, it was very well known that there were zero other jobs available in a 1 hour radius of where I was living/working. I ended up being so stressed out by EVERY encounter with every person at that point. It was unbelievably toxic. Made me just absolutely hate being at work. I found a job in a small town that offered good pay and was close to family so we moved there and things are much better for now, but I know that the same thing is going to happen here in the not too distant future if I stay in EM. Plan to work 2 more years here and save up some money and then its off to fellowship.
 
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This thread is so spot on. Yeah, I was working in an ED in a major metro at a job that I loved when I started, but eventually got so bad that I was just constantly on edge about being fired. Always getting told about my bad patient satisfaction scores. Every single one of these complaints btw were from frequent fliers who complained because I didn't give them opiates. Never had a single complaint from a legit patient ever. At one point my director actually threatened to make me do all nights if I didn't improve. Ridiculous. Of course, I stayed for a while and did what I could because I was worried I wouldn't get another job if I left. Then I got a complaint from someone I work with whom I happened to upset in a scenario where I was advocating for a patient. I know this is a bit vague, but I want to maintain my anonymity and that is the only reason Im not giving more detail on this. In spite of always getting along well with all of the nurses and other staff at this place for years, they decided that I was at fault in this instance too and put me on a formal discipline plan. By this point, it was very well known that there were zero other jobs available in a 1 hour radius of where I was living/working. I ended up being so stressed out by EVERY encounter with every person at that point. It was unbelievably toxic. Made me just absolutely hate being at work. I found a job in a small town that offered good pay and was close to family so we moved there and things are much better for now, but I know that the same thing is going to happen here in the not too distant future if I stay in EM. Plan to work 2 more years here and save up some money and then its off to fellowship.

That sounds awful. I agree this will happen anywhere, to everyone, outside of superstars at academic medical centers.
What fellowship are you considering?
 
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This thread is so spot on. Yeah, I was working in an ED in a major metro at a job that I loved when I started, but eventually got so bad that I was just constantly on edge about being fired. Always getting told about my bad patient satisfaction scores. Every single one of these complaints btw were from frequent fliers who complained because I didn't give them opiates. Never had a single complaint from a legit patient ever. At one point my director actually threatened to make me do all nights if I didn't improve. Ridiculous. Of course, I stayed for a while and did what I could because I was worried I wouldn't get another job if I left. Then I got a complaint from someone I work with whom I happened to upset in a scenario where I was advocating for a patient. I know this is a bit vague, but I want to maintain my anonymity and that is the only reason Im not giving more detail on this. In spite of always getting along well with all of the nurses and other staff at this place for years, they decided that I was at fault in this instance too and put me on a formal discipline plan. By this point, it was very well known that there were zero other jobs available in a 1 hour radius of where I was living/working. I ended up being so stressed out by EVERY encounter with every person at that point. It was unbelievably toxic. Made me just absolutely hate being at work. I found a job in a small town that offered good pay and was close to family so we moved there and things are much better for now, but I know that the same thing is going to happen here in the not too distant future if I stay in EM. Plan to work 2 more years here and save up some money and then its off to fellowship.

Weird, it seems like I've heard that story several times before, only with minor permutations. Almost like I could have written it myself. Situations like that inevitably spill over into one's personal life too.
 
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Saw this shared on the RadOn forums yesterday. Written by a surgeon but very relevant for all specialties:


"We doctors, the engine which is moving the medical machine, have almost nothing to say; we have been reduced to peons. Of course, the patients, those for whom the machine actually exists, had never much to say, were forever peons. They were always led as herds to the water; the ignorant greedily buying the prevailing propaganda that “this is the best medical system in the world”; the wealthy (who by natural selection are a little more informed) understood, they still do, that money buys the best care. That it is if you are informed and lucky.

Managed by armies of administrators, managers, and hordes of non-medical parasites with a myriad of ridiculous titles printed on their name tags, they function like mammoth factories in China—albeit much less efficient. In fact, the hospitals’ pyramid has been now inverted: the supporting staff greatly outnumbers those who come in touch with the patients. In many smaller hospitals on any given day, there are more administrators in the hospital than patients.

Lip service to alleged excellence is the religion d’jour. We are the best, we are the center of excellence, we have the best doctors, the best technology, and we are the national leaders. And this optimistic message (ala’ the forced optimism prevailing in Soviet Russia of the 1920s) is pushed forward by trained masters of propaganda—look at the size of public relationship department in even small hospitals. Glossy brochures by mail, colorful internal newspapers in any small hospital, group pictures of smiling, satisfied nurses, letters from extremely satisfied patients, and “major news,” glorifying the new Vice President of Finance or broadcasting the important speech our CEO gave in the national meeting of hospitals managers. Like North Korea. Doctors have little significant role, if any, in the conduct of the hospital.

There is no much place for dissent. You are not happy with what you see, you see problems, you want to openly discuss areas of dysfunction or misconduct, then very soon you are marked as a “problem maker.” An enemy of the system. Your fate is decided behind closed doors. The “open” process is brief and unilateral. It is easy to manufacture accusations against you: doctor, you have been disruptive, didn’t you complain against the management? The head nurse in the emergency room (ER) reported hearing your ranting?

And once they decide to get rid of you, you have not many options. They always tell you: either you resign immediately or we will have to fire you. In that case, we will have to report you to the National Practitioner Data Bank (NPDB). Now, who would choose to be tattooed with such a permanent stain on one’s record? Who would want to embark on a costly and (usually futile) legal fight with the mighty hospital? Better sign the resignation, find another job, and move on. Doing so, you sign a secrecy term that you will never disclose to anyone why you left. You will never share the problems you have observed.

Yes, we doctors have now become “providers.” In many places, our services are performed or duplicated (so the TMS believes) by “allied providers”: nurse-practitioners/physician-assistants. This obviously benefits the TMS: first, allied providers are much cheaper to maintain; second, they are less confident, and thus tend to order numerous extensive investigations (great for the system!); third, they are easier to discipline and keep in line.

This is not new: emerging totalitarian systems always start with eliminating the elite, the intelligentsia. People who are able to think freely are perceived as enemies. Chop off their wings. In such system, there is only one higher class: that of the dictators and their cronies. All the rest are to feel non-significant and in constant fear.

The younger generation of docs did not know better times. They, the Nintendo kids, grew up in a politically correct environment, groomed to succeed. And they know how to succeed within the TMS (they do not know any other system): obey the rules, forge happiness, and be useful. They are used to be constantly monitored by the “big brother.” They do not have a problem being evaluated/scored by faulty and biased and costly and contra productive commercial systems aimed at showing what patients think about them.

As usual, there are docs who move over, becoming the politruks or apparatchiks for the TMS. We all know those types: once they are allowed to sit along the long conference oak table, once they are made privy to the systems’ secrets, they are charmed to become collaborators, forgetting the interests of their old buddies. Alleged power and the sensation of self-importance are addictive for some. Isn’t it better to be fed from the hands of the oligarchs than suffer with the plebs?

This all may sound to you superficial, crazy, subversive, exaggerated, and overly dark. Well, perhaps I have exaggerated a little. And of course out there are still islands or reserves of good medicine. We all know surgeons and doctors and even administrators (and hospitals) who keep the light glowing against the background of the darkening sky.

A general surgeon (I am not going to sign this document. I still need my job for a few years …)"
Good article by the surgeon. I can sum it all up in one word:

"Employee."

This is how all employees feel that have bad bosses. It's not a new concept. It may feel new to doctors, or we've deluded ourselves into thinking we were 'special,' somehow avoid what every other rock-breaking, floor-washing employee has always felt.

But when docs gave up ownership to hospitals and CMG's, that's what we become. Employees. You could call us highly-paid burger flippers, hot-dog 'vendors' or overpriced PA's. But that's all we are, employees.
 
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The dissatisfied among us have three main choices, as I see it:


1) Find less terrible bosses.
  • New job, same career.

2) Make terrible bosses more tolerable.

  • New career with less grueling work, either medical or non-medical.

3) Become the boss.
  • Ownership or part ownership of your group, or

4) Reframe your viewpoint.
  • Truly accept your circumstances as imperfect, but your best option currently while consciously deciding to replace negative thoughts of the downsides, with positive thoughts of what you gain from it.
 
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That sounds awful. I agree this will happen anywhere, to everyone, outside of superstars at academic medical centers.
What fellowship are you considering?

The ones I am seriously looking at are interventional pain and palliative. My understanding is that critical care would also get you out of the ED, but I want to get off of nights and Im also not such a big fan of 12 hour shifts so Im not considering it at this time. These are the only fellowships I know of that get you out of EM.

I also know of people who have gone to work in hospice without fellowship and are happy doing this (this is a big pay cut from EM though).

I have a buddy who works for an insurance company and started at 230,000 for a 9 to 5 M - F job with them with great benefits and guaranteed 3% pay increase per year, although I am pretty sure its shady because you basically are going to have to help the insurance company to not pay for things if you want to keep that job.
 
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The ones I am seriously looking at are interventional pain and palliative. My understanding is that critical care would also get you out of the ED, but I want to get off of nights and Im also not such a big fan of 12 hour shifts so Im not considering it at this time. These are the only fellowships I know of that get you out of EM.

I also know of people who have gone to work in hospice without fellowship and are happy doing this (this is a big pay cut from EM though).

I have a buddy who works for an insurance company and started at 230,000 for a 9 to 5 M - F job with them with great benefits and guaranteed 3% pay increase per year, although I am pretty sure its shady because you basically are going to have to help the insurance company to not pay for things if you want to keep that job.
I wish you all the best. Do keep us posted on what you end up doing, would be nice to hear some success stories from EM docs looking for a way out of this mess.
 
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The ones I am seriously looking at are interventional pain and palliative. My understanding is that critical care would also get you out of the ED, but I want to get off of nights and Im also not such a big fan of 12 hour shifts so Im not considering it at this time. These are the only fellowships I know of that get you out of EM.

I also know of people who have gone to work in hospice without fellowship and are happy doing this (this is a big pay cut from EM though).

I have a buddy who works for an insurance company and started at 230,000 for a 9 to 5 M - F job with them with great benefits and guaranteed 3% pay increase per year, although I am pretty sure its shady because you basically are going to have to help the insurance company to not pay for things if you want to keep that job.
Sports Medicine, too.

You can do outpatient, non-operative Ortho i.e. 'sports medicine' with an Ortho group. You still might have to cover high-school/college sporting events evenings and some weekends, though. I know a guy that does this. He went into it via primary care, but he seems to have a decent gig with the big ortho group in my town.
 
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The ones I am seriously looking at are interventional pain and palliative. My understanding is that critical care would also get you out of the ED, but I want to get off of nights and Im also not such a big fan of 12 hour shifts so Im not considering it at this time. These are the only fellowships I know of that get you out of EM.

I also know of people who have gone to work in hospice without fellowship and are happy doing this (this is a big pay cut from EM though).

I have a buddy who works for an insurance company and started at 230,000 for a 9 to 5 M - F job with them with great benefits and guaranteed 3% pay increase per year, although I am pretty sure its shady because you basically are going to have to help the insurance company to not pay for things if you want to keep that job.
I know a nurse that does this, but there are MD jobs of this type. She offered me one.

You have to be the person that declines to let people have outpatient MRIs and CT scans. Then you have to make those treating docs call you during their busy day, to get all their MRIs 'approved' by you, who's never seen the patient and couldn't care less about the patient, because you're following marching orders from the insurance company to deny patients as many tests and treatments as possible, so their CEO can get a bigger cash bonus. I have to deal with these jerks denying MRIs I order all the time. "Back pain for a month, legs now going numb."

"Declined! Must try PT first."

I even had one deny a patient for an injection because they 'didn't have enough PT." Then when I ordered PT, they denied her because she had "too much PT." Then when the patient becomes a paraplegic due to a tumor crushing the spinal cord in the 18 weeks you fought through their red-tape and insurance appeals they're never sued because they're "not the patient's doctor" and "the patient refused to pay cash for the MRI, not our fault." And it's protected by the courts that are run by former trial-lawyer judges. I’d like to know how much cash they're taking from deep pocket insurance companies.

These people are right there next to doctors who take cash to testify against other doctors, administrators that shaft ER doctors, and ambulance chasing lawyers.

Not for me.
 
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Sports, Pain, palliative care, and occupational medicine seem the best ways out of EM. I agree critical care is not the best choice. Palli usually involves hospital work, too, so might consider that. The people I know who have done palli love it, but it's not for everyone.
 
Sports, Pain, palliative care, and occupational medicine seem the best ways out of EM. I agree critical care is not the best choice. Palli usually involves hospital work, too, so might consider that. The people I know who have done palli love it, but it's not for everyone.

It would seem going into Palliative care from EM would require an EP to radically alter his/her mindset. For me, switching gears from look for badness, move the meat, treat and street to sitting down and having ultra marathon hour long end of life care discussions with terminally ill patients seems like a very difficult transition. I'd probably end up tuning out halfway, like when I'm listening to a chronic fibromyalgia patient trying to go on an and on about nothing of relevance as to why they're in the ED.
 
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PM me and I'll give you the symbols.
Why don’t you just post the symbols for us all to see?
I had no undergrad debt (full scholarships), went to a cheap med school and had no debt upon residency graduation, and made an investment a few years before medical school began that has paid off. I knew the right, extremely smart person who knew it would pay off and told me about it.
What’s the investment that went up..
 
I recently mentioned in another thread that I was upset about something. I didn’t want to derail that thread so I deflected the questions. I’ve been thinking about whether or not to post this and what to say. I think it’s important so here it goes.

I was cleaning out my hard drive and I found a letter of recommendation I wrote for someone years ago. They were successful and got into emergency medicine. Once they were practicing they had some problems. They really weren’t supported through these issues and things got worse. They committed suicide.

I don’t feel responsible so that’s not what this is about. I’ve been doing EMS and working in EDs for 30 years now and I’m appalled at the body count. I’ve known too many people who couldn’t drag themselves back from the darkness. I don’t draw too much distinction between the ones who ate a gun or went out with a needle in their arms. This industry and this specialty can be toxic.

I will say that for the ones I know who got to that point and were able to turn it around things always got better. Not perfect, but better. For the ones who killed themselves it never got better.

If you’re getting there reach out. Don’t let this mess of a system take everything.

Quite honestly, there are very few good jobs in this specialty. There are relatively few jobs that offer traditional "benefits". I can probably count 3 or 4 that I've seen that would fall into the category of good since finishing residency. What constitutes "good" is a measure that goes far beyond hourly rate. If you find one, hang on to it with both hands (and your feet, if you can).
 
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Quite honestly, there are very few good jobs in this specialty. There are relatively few jobs that offer traditional "benefits". I can probably count 3 or 4 that I've seen that would fall into the category of good since finishing residency. What constitutes "good" is a measure that goes far beyond hourly rate. If you find one, hang on to it with both hands (and your feet, if you can).
I (think) I've found one. I won't say where (don't want to out myself). It's a small independent hospital in a non-descript rural town. Quite a few doctors travel a long distance to work there. I commute across the country (on my own dime) for this job. It's not perfect, but after having worked in ~15 ERs, it's pretty good and more than enough for this chapter of life. I hope it doesn't change and that I don't lose my job!
 
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It would seem going into Palliative care from EM would require an EP to radically alter his/her mindset. For me, switching gears from look for badness, move the meat, treat and street to sitting down and having ultra marathon hour long end of life care discussions with terminally ill patients seems like a very difficult transition. I'd probably end up tuning out halfway, like when I'm listening to a chronic fibromyalgia patient trying to go on an and on about nothing of relevance as to whey they're in the ED.

RE: Palliative, you're absolutely correct that the jobs are drastically different! All in content, tempo, and structure.

For example, you don't have to search for the badness, as you were consulted by Neurosurg/Onc/Cards/XYZ for the [already identified] problem... whether that is recalcitrant physical symptom burden, psychological, spiritual, existential, or just assisting with goals of care discussions. You can, however, uncover new problems or treatment pathways to address the mechanism you suspect to be the etiology of that problem.

Sorting goals of care do not always need to be an hour-long endeavor. Sometimes they are. Sometimes they are 15 minutes. Generally (i.e.,>95%), the conversations with these patients/families are much more pleasant than in the ED -- at least in my experience.

Listening to my patients on the palliative service is in no way, shape, or form comparable to the time spent with a patient endorsing "chronic end-stage fibromyalgia" in the ED. I've been there and done that -- it ruined shifts for me.

The essence is that these are folks are with known and identifiable pathology suffering intense need for related symptom management, and you are just the subspecialist with training to meet that need. You can shape your practice in different ways -- don't like clinic? Don't do it. Want to run a unit? Do that instead. Only want to do consults? Okay, find that position. Want community? Okay. Academic rather? No problem. Want to do the 7-on-7-off hospitalist schedule? Those jobs exist. Instead, prefer the quintessential 8-4 banker hours variety? Have at it.

Overall, you are right that moving the meat mentality is not best for this patient population. While the training would still serve one well as practicing full-time in the ED, the inability to shift away from that mindset is not concordant with long-term success in this subspecialty -- it doesn't do your patients, their families, or yourself justice. From the financial standpoint, it pays better than many EM jobs (read: current EM jobs), but it isn't and shouldn't be about that. For the right fit doc -- the content itself will be tremendously rewarding.
 
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It would seem going into Palliative care from EM would require an EP to radically alter his/her mindset. For me, switching gears from look for badness, move the meat, treat and street to sitting down and having ultra marathon hour long end of life care discussions with terminally ill patients seems like a very difficult transition. I'd probably end up tuning out halfway, like when I'm listening to a chronic fibromyalgia patient trying to go on an and on about nothing of relevance as to whey they're in the ED.
That's what I thought, until I did a month of palliative care during my Pain fellowship. I enjoyed it more than I thought I would. Sure, the circumstances are sad, but you're rarely the one breaking the news, like you are in the ED. That's usually their PCP, cancer doc, or someone else upstream. Plus, you often have social work and nurses involved to help. So, the focus becomes on easing suffering. I was surprised how positive of a month it was. It wasn't my chosen subspecialty, as I was not at a point in my career and family life I could justify the pay cut yet, but I did like it well enough.

I can't remember a single "ultra-marathon, hour long, end of life care discussion." And any conversations I did have, were a helluva lot less painful than telling a parent who doesn't even know why their kid is at the ED, "Suzie got his by a car getting off the bus. I'm sorry. We did everything humanly possible but...(>>>>>kaboom<<<< >>>mushroom-cloud of emotional destruction<<<<<)"

Because in Hospice and Palliative, they already know. And you're just a someone helping them get through the next hour, as painlessly as possible.
 
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The ones I am seriously looking at are interventional pain and palliative. My understanding is that critical care would also get you out of the ED, but I want to get off of nights and Im also not such a big fan of 12 hour shifts so Im not considering it at this time. These are the only fellowships I know of that get you out of EM.

I also know of people who have gone to work in hospice without fellowship and are happy doing this (this is a big pay cut from EM though).

I have a buddy who works for an insurance company and started at 230,000 for a 9 to 5 M - F job with them with great benefits and guaranteed 3% pay increase per year, although I am pretty sure its shady because you basically are going to have to help the insurance company to not pay for things if you want to keep that job.

Pain is another great choice. You are a subspecialist (treated as such) and can make a major difference in folks' lives.
You also relieve suffering with your hands (the interventions/procedures) which can add on a whole different level of internal satisfaction... and reimbursement! :1geek:

Not a bad investment at all for 1 year's fellowship.

It sounds like it would also meet your goals, but I defer to the pain docs on here.
 
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Pain is facing job market woes as well

Post in: 'Graduating fellows....any advantage of going into PP instead of hospital employee?'

Almost nobody I know has signed yet. Overwhelmingly, the jobs I've come across have been:

1) Brand new(ish) offices in the middle of nowhere, where practices from more saturated areas are looking to capture a new piece of the market. The group will wine and dine you at the central location in a nice area, then tell you that you'll be commuting between three remote villages and working Saturdays.
2) Groups looking for a sucker to deal with meds/take the fall for the shady **** they're doing, with minimal to no procedures. Googling the practice owners returns "Felony" with surprising regularity (I wish I was joking).
3) PM&R based jobs looking for PM&R grads to do all the things PM&R grads went into pain to get away from in the first place.
 
Hospital admin and medical directors don't realize the repercussions of what they do to us. We are highly skilled, trained, intelligent people with egos to match. The constant smackdowns, like bringing up every patient complaint and bad survey result negatively impacts mental health. Especially in the current environment, the anxiety from being disciplined and not knowing if there's another job out there could be life-ending.
They don't care. They look for cheaper cogs
 
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I had no undergrad debt (full scholarships), went to a cheap med school and had no debt upon residency graduation, and made an investment a few years before medical school began that has paid off. I knew the right, extremely smart person who knew it would pay off and told me about it.
Sounds like Bitcoin/cryptocurrency...
 
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A S&P 500 index fund is hard to beat, but they're are down years. 2008 as an example.
 
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Pain is facing job market woes as well

Post in: 'Graduating fellows....any advantage of going into PP instead of hospital employee?'
All specialties, except maybe CC, are getting squeezed in one way or another. But as others have pointed out many times over, the cluster funk that is EM is unique to the field. Exploding HCA diploma mill residencies, plus midlevel encroachment, PLUS the inability to own your own practice. Not too many fields have all 3 elements as problems. At least you can hang your own shingle as a pain doc somewhere.
 
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