Does your School Matter for residency

[Steinway]

qweegq,
couldn't have said it any better. everyone gets by on their own talents not their school's rep...at least that's how it is for undergrads applying to med school.........i

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[dr kevin40]

do u really think that someone w/ a 3.7 from UCberkely or Harvard (despite the rampant grade inflation there) is given the same weight as someone w/ a 3.95 or 4.0 from a no-name school? sorry to those who go/went to no-name schools but i think its just that way.

 

[LizardKing]

Yes and no. I've heard from many credible sources that Harvard's average board scores, for instance, aren't in the top 10. Many schools (Vandy, etc.) you wouldn't normally think of as top 10 schools actually have the highest board scores. This inconsistency throws into question your theory that students from the "top" schools perform the best therefore they get the most competitive residencies. Sure, board scores aren't everything, but they are one of the most important factors in the match.

There are exceptionally gifted students at every med school. Yes, there might be a higher concentration of geniuses at Harvard, but there are plenty of people from lower tier schools who perform on par, if not better, than students there. Yet there seems to be a Harvard, Hopkins, etc. monopoly on some residencies. It's not fair at all, but that's the game.

In addition, I would think it's much harder to pull a 260 USMLE and be in the top 10 of your class at a no-name med school than get a 210 USMLE and be in the middle at Harvard. Yet many students from the latter category get the interviews over the former.

Originally posted by qweewq11
Lots of people on here have bought into the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

Take a look at the MCAT scores for Harvard/Cornell/UCSF students. They're around 35. The reason these kids got into these schools is b/c they were extremely intelligent to begin with, and they prolly would have in the top 5 students at a less well known school anyway, and had stellar USMLEs. The Harvard degree was just icing on the cake.

To put it another way, they got into top schools b/c they were good enough to get the residencies regardless of whether they got in.

 

[LizardKing]

I would put school name below these other criteria (in order of importance):

1. Board Scores
2. Clinical Evals
3. Letters of Rec/PS
4. 1st + 2nd year grades
5. Reputation of School

This would probably apply to getting any type of surgical residency. Of course, this is only my guess.

 

[Ischemia]

Dr Kevin,

I think it depends on how much of a "no-name" school it really is. I think someone with a 4.0 from a small, private college that has absolutely no affiliation with research, is essentially a 4 year community school, or is a school that rich kids go to because they know they wouldn't make it at a tough school, would not be given the same weight as a 3.5/3.7 from Harvard, and it rightfully shouldn't. However, there are plenty of universities that could easily be considered 'no names' that have great things going on and are just as academically challenging. A prime example would be the New York state universities (SUNY). For undergrad, I was accepted into Columbia, Cornell, NYU, and the rest of the state schools (I only applied to NY schools). However, I didn't receive flattering financial aid packages and so I didn't go to one of these 'name' schools but instead a 'no-name' state university. Here, I work harder than many at 'name' schools and my GPA is quite high. In fact, that helps me to stand out quite a bit. I know many others just like myself. I highly doubt that a 4.0 from my school would be frowned upon in comparison to a 3.5/3.7 from Harvard, where, like many other 'name' schools, grade inflation is known to be a serious issue.

Although my school isn't stellar, it is certainly good enough. Unfortunately, New York doesn't pride themselves in education as does California. It's a sad fact, but one that has to be lived with. I'm sure most other states are like this. It does not, though, take away from the quality of your own education. No matter where you go, you learn only based on how much effort you put into it. I think, or at least certainly hope, that many adcoms recognize this.

I realize this post is about getting into residency. I think the situation is similar. Sometimes a big fish in a small sea stands out over a small fish in a big sea.

 

[Jalby]

Originally posted by LizardKing
I would put school name below these other criteria (in order of importance):

1. Board Scores
2. Clinical Evals
3. Letters of Rec/PS
4. 1st + 2nd year grades
5. Reputation of School

This would probably apply to getting any type of surgical residency. Of course, this is only my guess.

One thing that REALLY helps to get a residency is doing on-site locations. My friend who is a residency director says that is one of the main things that put people over others, b/c he can just go talk to the res who the person worked under and ask him how he did and if they would want them there.

 

[yaoming]

I dont want to be a part of this heated debate, but I just wanted to remind you guys of a point. The "top ten" schools you are referring to has nothing to do with "education." They are not the top ten schools of educating their students with excellent educational programs. They are top ten for research.

I went to ucla undergraduate, and learned crap there. They taught me all these ideal theories and unapplicable research-related topics. I wished I went to a community college instead because I would've learned more applicable concepts for the MCAT, and for sure would've done better. UCLA undergrad's education blows.

This comment related to someone wondering why vanderbilt has better average board scores than harvard.

 

[hatcher]

Originally posted by dr kevin40


being in the top 30% of a top ten should mean a lot more than being in the top 5% of a non-top 30 med school

school should matter for residency. as to whether it actually does, i don't know

to ease my curiosity, why don't you explain why it should matter?

there are those of us out there who probably kicked your ass on the mcat but(most likely due to our superior intelligence) chose to go to a school where we actually felt more comfortable rather than being led by our insecurities to a school with a big name that we could use as a platform off of which to brag.

the competition between classmates at top ten schools is not so much greater than at non-top ten schools that one can look at the 98 i got in neuro (or the 99 in micro, or the 98th % i scored on the physiology shelf exam, etc...) and say i don't know as much as someone at some top ten school. plus, while many top schools emphasize research, mine emphasizes dr-patient interaction, which i guess means i will be better at interacting with my patient than someone at a top ten school (since we are making gross overgeneralizations here).

convince me why the upper third of a top ten school is better qualified to get a certain residency than the top 10 students in my class. tell me why 300 or so people from 10 schools are better qualified than the hundreds at other schools not looked upon as "stellar" by your sacred us news and world report.

 

[Diogenes]

I've spoken to deans of admission, including some that previously ran residency programs, and they all said that how you perform at your school and specifically on your boards and during your rotations, matters much more than what school you go to. And this was coming from deans at top 10, top 20, top 30 schools.

 

[CANES2006]

I sense a heated debate is about to start here. I agree with hatcher and yaoming. Many of those top ten schools (not all of them of course) are overrated. They are mostly up there because of their research emphasis and reputation, which is based on years of tradition in being up in the ranks (notice that the ranks are basically the same year after year). These schools aren't necessarily the best IMO. Many top ten graduates are incompetent when it comes to clinical (treating the patient and interacting with the patient). They probably rock in research, but that's not the only thing that makes someone a good doctor in my opinion. Of course, there are some brilliant people in the top ten schools. However, these schools aren't the only ones with brilliant people. Every school has its share of those. Just like every school has subpar individuals. That's right. Even the top ten schools have individuals who aren't so well qualified (those who got in because parents have connections or those who were filling a token position). Basically, every school in America has a standardized form of teaching medicine. This is why everyone takes the same board and why residency is based heavily on your board scores. To say that one individual is better than another solely because he/she goes to a top ten is absolutely crazy. There are alot of people out there in a non-top 30 school who could smoke a top ten student.

*Canes strikes the bell for the second round to begin*

 

[MacGyver]

Some of you people amaze me. You go on about how med schools (regardless of rank) are largely alike and point out that an outstanding student from a nonranked school can do better in the residency match than a mediocre/poor student from a top school. All of which is absolutely true.

But then you go on to make massive generalizations and assumptions that put down the "top" schools, implying that research is the only thing they are good at, cant interact with patients, the only reason they are there is because they want the name of the school, etc etc etc

In one breath you dispel stereotypes about nonranked schools and in the next breath you spew your own uninformed stereotypes about "top" schools.

Now what the &*@# is that!!

 

[Trek]

Quit whining mac, doesn't go well with your brown nose. --Trek

 

[hatcher]

Originally posted by MacGyver

But then you go on to make massive generalizations and assumptions that put down the "top" schools, implying that research is the only thing they are good at, cant interact with patients, the only reason they are there is because they want the name of the school, etc etc etc

wow, you're sure quick on the uptake. if you will, carefully reread my post, paying particular attention to the 3rd paragraph's last sentence. if you still can't see it, let me know and i will highlight it for you.

i know i was making a gross generalization. i was as upfront about doing it as i could be (seeing as how i said in the post that i was doing it). it is called irony. check it out. it is how we students at "lesser" medical schools deal with the reality of being subpar in comparision to all of the gods at the top ten schools. (and, to save you the time of replying to say that i am now contradicting myself by saying i think i am inferior to students at the top ten, i will let you know that the last sentence of this paragraph is sarcasm).

 

[doepug]

Erk.

Here we go, no sugar coating:

Plain and simple, yes, the med school you attend will affect your chances for many residency positions.

Sure, you can come up with the "good student at a mediocre school" vs a "mediocre student at a good school" argument, but MUCH more often than not, the mediocre student at a good school wins.

Yes, there are exceptions, but they are EXCEPTIONS.

Everyone has anecdotes about "so-and-so" from Podunk U grabbing a hot-shot residency, but aside from the FEW people who manage to do this, these are largely fairy tales.

 

[Jalby]

Originally posted by hatcher

those of us out there who probably kicked your ass on the mcat but(most likely due to our superior intelligence)

These type of quotes are never good. Don't assume thigns about people. Kevin kind of named his user name after his MCAT score.

 

[hatcher]

Originally posted by Jalby


These type of quotes are never good. Don't assume thigns about people. Kevin kind of named his user name after his MCAT score.

your point?

 

[Diogenes]

Originally posted by doepug
Erk.

Here we go, no sugar coating:

Plain and simple, yes, the med school you attend will affect your chances for many residency positions.

Sure, you can come up with the "good student at a mediocre school" vs a "mediocre student at a good school" argument, but MUCH more often than not, the mediocre student at a good school wins.

Yes, there are exceptions, but they are EXCEPTIONS.

Everyone has anecdotes about "so-and-so" from Podunk U grabbing a hot-shot residency, but aside from the FEW people who manage to do this, these are largely fairy tales.

I've talked to many residency directors and most of them say something like this:
"If you want to get a very competetive residency, you need to be near the top of your class, regardless of your school."

Now for residencies of medium competition level, then the whole mediocre student or mediocre school thing might apply. But if you want a very desirable residency, going to a top 20 school won't mean squat if you don't kick some ass when you are there -- according to the residency directors I've spoken with.

BTW I'd like to see the data that you are basing your assertions on. If you are going to make startements like "MUCH more often," you must have some actual data to back that up, not just anecdotal evidence or stuff you have heard other people say or your own speculation. Please share your data with us.

 

[MacGyver]

Diogenes,

Unless you took a survey of hundreds of program directors, I'd say your evidence is anecdotal also.

 

[doepug]

Originally posted by Diogenes

I've talked to many residency directors and most of them say something like this: "If you want to get a very competetive residency, you need to be near the top of your class, regardless of your school."

All I know is this. I'm an MS III at a well-known school. People who graduate at the bottom of the class here get excellent residencies, even in very competitive fields (e.g. neurosurg, ENT, ophth). For example, ~9-10 people from my school match in neurosurgery programs each year. They consistently match into awesome programs. Compare these 9 or 10 to a list of those students inducted into AOA, and it becomes clear that one does not need AOA status here to match into an awesome program.

My data are hardly anecdotal... just look at match lists. Top schools have rocked the match since the founding of the NRMP. Decades of match lists prove this point. At my school, we're consistently told that grades are only for show, because students at the bottom of the class can match just as well as those in AOA. I'd wager to say this is true at a handful of other well-known schools.

Cheers,
doepug

 

[doepug]

Originally posted by LizardKing
I would put school name below these other criteria (in order of importance):

1. Board Scores
2. Clinical Evals
3. Letters of Rec/PS
4. 1st + 2nd year grades
5. Reputation of School

This would probably apply to getting any type of surgical residency. Of course, this is only my guess.

Hmmm.

Unfortunately, as much as everyone hates it, surgical fields tend to be very elitist in their selection of residents, at least at top programs.

For surgical programs, I'd rank your list as follows:

1. Reputation of school
2. Clinical evals (tie)
2. Board scores (tie)
4. Letters of rec (unless they're from a bigshot)
5. Preclinical grades

 

[Diogenes]

Originally posted by MacGyver
Diogenes,

Unless you took a survey of hundreds of program directors, I'd say your evidence is anecdotal also.

Yes it is, but when comparing two pieces of anecdotal evidence, one cannot accurately say which is correct.


doepug

I don't doubt that Hopkins students match well into the specialties they want. That was not the point. You stated that a mediocre student at a good school will beat out a good student at a mediocre school. This is what you have no evidence of. Mediocre schools have match lists with many students matching to desirable residencies. So who beat who for what? There is no way to tell.

I guess my definition of "mediocre" schools is probably not quite right anyways, since I live in California and all of my state schools are ranked by US News. Perhaps using the "worst" UCs as "mediocre" on my personal rankings is an underestimate of their reputation/value.

 

[CANES2006]

doepug,
So basically what you are saying is that you can totally slack off in medical school and be at the bottom of your class and STILL land a great residency program because you just went to a top ten? I find this hard to believe. Most probably you will be beaten for the job by one of your classmates that really worked hard in medical school. Most often these "top ten" students who landed prestigious residency positions WERE ALSO TOP of their class. Of course, they got the postion. They were brilliant. They probably would have landed the job anyway because they would have been at the top of the class at ANY medical school. But, for you to say that you can just slide through medical school and be at the bottom of your class and still land a good residency is just ridiculous. Hopkins or not, you need to work hard in medical school and try to be at the top of your class or else you will get stuck with a not so impressive residency. Case in point, I have a friend who went to Cornell for college. He performed at a mediocre level there and ended up NOT getting into ANY U.S. medical school. I on the other hand did not go to an IVY league. However, I busted my butt and was at the top of my class. I got into every school that I applied to (I didn't care to apply to a top ten so don't pull the argument "but you didn't get into a top ten"). I will be starting medical school at the University of Miami this fall (it was my first choice school for many years). And you know where he is now? IN THE CARRIBEAN!!!! Bottom line folks: work hard at medical school or in anything you do and forget about the rankings.

 

[dr kevin40]

Originally posted by Ischemia
Dr Kevin,

I think it depends on how much of a "no-name" school it really is. I think someone with a 4.0 from a small, private college that has absolutely no affiliation with research, is essentially a 4 year community school, or is a school that rich kids go to because they know they wouldn't make it at a tough school, would not be given the same weight as a 3.5/3.7 from Harvard, and it rightfully shouldn't. However, there are plenty of universities that could easily be considered 'no names' that have great things going on and are just as academically challenging. A prime example would be the New York state universities (SUNY). For undergrad, I was accepted into Columbia, Cornell, NYU, and the rest of the state schools (I only applied to NY schools). However, I didn't receive flattering financial aid packages and so I didn't go to one of these 'name' schools but instead a 'no-name' state university. Here, I work harder than many at 'name' schools and my GPA is quite high. In fact, that helps me to stand out quite a bit. I know many others just like myself. I highly doubt that a 4.0 from my school would be frowned upon in comparison to a 3.5/3.7 from Harvard, where, like many other 'name' schools, grade inflation is known to be a serious issue.

Although my school isn't stellar, it is certainly good enough. Unfortunately, New York doesn't pride themselves in education as does California. It's a sad fact, but one that has to be lived with. I'm sure most other states are like this. It does not, though, take away from the quality of your own education. No matter where you go, you learn only based on how much effort you put into it. I think, or at least certainly hope, that many adcoms recognize this.

I realize this post is about getting into residency. I think the situation is similar. Sometimes a big fish in a small sea stands out over a small fish in a big sea.

I agree w/ u in many respects that someone working hard in a less than big-name university might still be afforded the same opportunities. thanks for keeping ur post civil.

 

[dr kevin40]

Originally posted by hatcher


to ease my curiosity, why don't you explain why it should matter?

there are those of us out there who probably kicked your ass on the mcat but(most likely due to our superior intelligence) chose to go to a school where we actually felt more comfortable rather than being led by our insecurities to a school with a big name that we could use as a platform off of which to brag.

the competition between classmates at top ten schools is not so much greater than at non-top ten schools that one can look at the 98 i got in neuro (or the 99 in micro, or the 98th % i scored on the physiology shelf exam, etc...) and say i don't know as much as someone at some top ten school. plus, while many top schools emphasize research, mine emphasizes dr-patient interaction, which i guess means i will be better at interacting with my patient than someone at a top ten school (since we are making gross overgeneralizations here).

convince me why the upper third of a top ten school is better qualified to get a certain residency than the top 10 students in my class. tell me why 300 or so people from 10 schools are better qualified than the hundreds at other schools not looked upon as "stellar" by your sacred us news and world report.

geez hatcher. i don't know what u prob is. i was just giving my opinion alright! for ur info, i'm not at any med school right now so its not fair for u to assume that b/c of what i said, i am at a top med school...plus i don't know y u gotta hate and say dumb **** like "i got a better mcat score than u" when u don't even know my score. sorry if i offended u w/ what i posted but i was just sharing what i believed. residency is just like med school, and in med school, ur underg rep counts so med school rep will count just the same

 

[hatcher]

Originally posted by dr kevin40


geez hatcher. i don't know what u prob is. i was just giving my opinion alright! for ur info, i'm not at any med school right now so its not fair for u to assume that b/c of what i said, i am at a top med school...plus i don't know y u gotta hate and say dumb **** like "i got a better mcat score than u" when u don't even know my score. sorry if i offended u w/ what i posted but i was just sharing what i believed. residency is just like med school, and in med school, ur underg rep counts so med school rep will count just the same

my prob is you said the top third of a top ten school should get in over the top ten at non top thirty schools. your elietism disgusts me, that is my prob. you basically said that the only doctors who are worth their weight as physicians are those who graduate from top ten schools.

i want to know why you have the opinion that you have. i want to know what makes the top third of a certain school so much better, in your mind, than the top grads at non-top tier schools. i want you to justify your opinion. i want you to explain to me how your mind works such that it allows you to rationalize that thought to the point that you would take it as your opinion. the fact that you are not even in med school makes it even worse. you have no appreciation for what anyone else goes through; the only people who you respect are those who go somewhere with a reputation. your statement, opinion or not, is one of the most disrespectful statements i have ever read on sdn. that is my prob with you.

 

[MacGyver]

Originally posted by CANES2006
So basically what you are saying is that you can totally slack off in medical school and be at the bottom of your class and STILL land a great residency program because you just went to a top ten?

Being at the bottom of the class and slacking off is not necessarily the same thing. At most schools, the people at the bottom of the class did fine, they just dont have honors in every class. But its not as if they made straight Ds thru all their courses. Med students at every school are extremely driven, and even those at the bottom of a particular school are not necessarily slackers. Its a lot different from college.

I find this hard to believe.

Well, if you are talking about people making straight Ds thru their courses, poor clinical evals, poor board scores, then yes I would find that hard to believe too. But finishing at the bottom of the class does not necessarily mean that you meet the criteria above.

Most probably you will be beaten for the job by one of your classmates that really worked hard in medical school. Most often these "top ten" students who landed prestigious residency positions WERE ALSO TOP of their class.

doepug just stated that this was NOT true at his school. AOA is generally a good indicator of who finished at the top of their class (its the top 15-20%). He pointed out that for the neurosurgery match, one of the most competitive, there was no correlation between AOA status and the people who matched in neurosurg. Of course, the case could be that none of the AOA people tried to go into neurosurg; but clearly its too simplistic to state that you MUST finish near the top of your class to match into a competitive field.

Of course, they got the postion. They were brilliant. They probably would have landed the job anyway because they would have been at the top of the class at ANY medical school.

The people he refers to were NOT at the top of the class at his school, according to AOA status.

But, for you to say that you can just slide through medical school and be at the bottom of your class and still land a good residency is just ridiculous.

thats not what he said. He said that people at the bottom of the class still got competitive residencies. He never referred to them as inferior students, he just mentioned that according to AOA status they were not at the top of the class. There was never any mentioning of them "sliding through"; again its not like college, you HAVE to study to pass.

Hopkins or not, you need to work hard in medical school and try to be at the top of your class or else you will get stuck with a not so impressive residency.

Absolute statements like this cannot be trusted. The reality is that there is a blend of truth to this statement. Of course, its more likely that you will match into a more competitive specialty with better grades, AOA status, and in general finishing near the top of the class. I think doepug was trying to make the point that at "top" schools the rule you stated above is less likely to be absolute, and that students at the bottom of the class can match into good, competitive areas.

work hard at medical school or in anything you do and forget about the rankings.

I agree with this, but I think that the school you go to makes some difference. Look we all know that undergrad school makes a difference in med admissions. All things being equal, the Ivy grad will tend to be favored. Does that mean they have an advantage that cant be overcome by somebody from a non Ivy? Absolutely not, but by default the Ivy grad will get some slight favoritism. Why would it be any different for med school/residency? If you want to argue that these people are fickle for playing favorites like that, then I can agree with that. But it doesnt change the reality of what goes on.

 

[Dr. Dodger Dog]

Hatcher,

I don't understand why you can't respect other people's opinions. Whether you disagree or agree, there is no need to make such disrespectful comments. I am appalled that someone like you was accepted into medical school.

Now that is my opinion.

 

[hatcher]

Originally posted by Dr. Dodger Dog
Hatcher,

I don't understand why you can't respect other people's opinions. Whether you disagree or agree, there is no need to make such disrespectful comments. I am appalled that someone like you was accepted into medical school.

Now that is my opinion.

i respect others opinions, provided they respect me. your boy kev obviously has no respect for me because, even though i was accepted at every school to which i applied, i chose to go to a non-top tier school. every medical student at the 95 us schools not in the top 30, not to mention the foreign medical school students, were all disrespected ten times worse by drkev than he should be by anything i said to him.

go give your boy a hug and tell him everything is ok. tell him that he is completely right to disrespect current medical students because, as long as they are not at top 10 schools, they are beneath him and his great wisdom. take your 40 mcats and live in your fantasy world where people who score that high or higher only go to the top ten schools.

god forbid you ever have an attending/resident who went to someplace like ut. we had a 100% match rate for ent, neurosurgery and derm last year. just because our school focuses on producing family doctors (and thus, attracts people who want to go into that specialty) doesn't mean we are idiots. the same holds true for every other school in the country.

 

[dr kevin40]

hatcher,

that's great that u r happy w/ ur med school choice. i was merely representing my opinion. the reason i said waht i said was b/c i believe that ppl at the top medical schools r usually the top recruits and would be stars at lesser medical schools. u said u didn't choose a school based on ranking but a lot of ppl do. y do u think there's so much movement in medical school waitlists? when ppl get accepted into a better (more often than not higher ranked school) they ditch wherever they at now.

i think u have a lot of anger or sumthin. i never brought up my mcat score and still don't see how its valid to the discussion we having right here.

 

[jot]

dr kevin40
hatcher
42-44s

is it normal for people to wear their mcat scores on their sleeves? cause i'd hate to not be in style

 

[chak_de_phatee]

Originally posted by jot
dr kevin40
hatcher
42-44s

is it normal for people to wear their mcat scores on their sleeves? cause i'd hate to not be in style

Hahaha no offence to you guys with those awesome scores.........congratulations you guys rule............... but Jot didn't you know size of the MCAT scores is all that matters to premed chicks these days.........

P.S. I think jot you asked a while back and yes I got a little pj in me too. Orange is an awesome color........

 

[hatcher]

Originally posted by jot
dr kevin40
hatcher
42-44s

is it normal for people to wear their mcat scores on their sleeves? cause i'd hate to not be in style

i was under the impression that it was, based on my new friend dr kevin. i didn't want to be left out, either.

kevin-
i have no anger. i have disgust. i have disgust for people who are so seemingly intelligent, but who have blinders on to the world. i have disgust for people who feel they have to prove something to the world by doing things simply for the prestige. i have disgust for people who do not think of the consequences of their statements. you overgeneralize about things you really have no idea. to make such a generalization slaps every medical student in the face and makes you look like a complete ass. one of the main reasons i am not at a top tier school is because i didn't want to be around a$$holes who think like yourself.

the reason your mcat keeps coming up is because it keeps being brought up by others (including yourself). you're right, it is immaterial. i won't touch it again and i will take mine off my title. i have been here nearly two full years and had never disclosed my mcat score until today. i saw you did within a month of joining. if you post it, it is free game to come up again in discussion. the reason i mentioned it last time is because your bro' dodger dog felt left out of the conversation, so i figured i would tie him in while at the same time post how i actually read most of these threads without posting and that i knew your score when i originally made my first post. i thought anyone who included their score in their user name didn't mind it being referenced.

i am pretty much through here. all i really want you to do is start thinking about the consequences of your statements. if you insult your colleagues and think yourself above them, i can promise your that your life will be hell.

good luck with the application process. try not to base your decision on prestige and try to remember there are those of us out there at other schools who are just as smart, if not smarter, than you and your buddies.

 

[LizardKing]

EVERYONE CHILL OUT. Keep the personal attacks to your goddamn self. There's no need to get all emotional about this issue.

I think we all agree that school name matters at least a little bit. No one here is really saying it's critical in the match. Of course it's nowhere near as important as your board scores, evals, and recs. Same thing with MCATs and undergrad schools.

Does anyone disagree that applicants from Harvard undergrad have a little bit of an edge over those from state schools? Almost everybody I met during my interviews were from the Ivies. Whether I was at Pitt or Hopkins, I was usually one of two or three people from lower caliber undergrad schools. It's the way things are.

Anyway, I don't like the generalizations that some people only go for the prestige. You don't know any of us, so quit judging.

 

[Bikini Princess]

For more information, you may visit the AMCAS website and click on "NRMP". Basically, the above poster is correct. I think the clinical training you get at a particular school is more important than name recognition alone for matching. (ie one school might be good for surgery matching, whereas another might be good for opthamology matching, etc)

 

[LizardKing]

kevin40, you already got over half as many posts as I do! I've been here for a year. I'm a regular too.

You gotta kick the habit, man. It's an addiction.

 

[hatcher]

Originally posted by LizardKing
EVERYONE CHILL OUT. Keep the personal attacks to your goddamn self. There's no need to get all emotional about this issue.

I think we all agree that school name matters at least a little bit. No one here is really saying it's critical in the match. Of course it's nowhere near as important as your board scores, evals, and recs. Same thing with MCATs and undergrad schools.

Does anyone disagree that applicants from Harvard undergrad have a little bit of an edge over those from state schools? Almost everybody I met during my interviews were from the Ivies. Whether I was at Pitt or Hopkins, I was usually one of two or three people from lower caliber undergrad schools. It's the way things are.

Anyway, I don't like the generalizations that some people only go for the prestige. You don't know any of us, so quit judging.

i never said people only go to a school for prestige. i simply noted the fact that many people do. look at the posters on this forum who are hell bent on getting into a top ten school without ever knowing anything about the school other than its name and rank.

i do think students from top tier schools may have an advantage in certain situations. however, i do not think the top third of their class should be given preference over the top 5 % from other schools. that is the statement to which i took offense. everyone else on this forum should have been offended, too.

 

[LizardKing]

Again, nobody is saying that the top third of their class "should" be given preference. We are merely arguing that they ARE given preference. It's the reality.

Sure, once you get past the interview stage, school name might not be that big a deal. It's all about side-by-side comparisons at that point. But a lot of people don't even get to the interview stage because of their school background.

Originally posted by hatcher


i never said people only go to a school for prestige. i simply noted the fact that many people do. look at the posters on this forum who are hell bent on getting into a top ten school without ever knowing anything about the school other than its name and rank.

i do think students from top tier schools may have an advantage in certain situations. however, i do not think the top third of their class should be given preference over the top 5 % from other schools. that is the statement to which i took offense. everyone else on this forum should have been offended, too.

 

[hatcher]

Originally posted by LizardKing
Again, nobody is saying that the top third of their class "should" be given preference. We are merely arguing that they ARE given preference. It's the reality.

reread the post by dr kevin40 on the first page of this thread and tell me if you want to stick with the statement you just made.

Originally posted by dr kevin40:
being in the top 30% of a top ten should mean a lot more than being in the top 5% of a non-top 30 med school

school should matter for residency. as to whether it actually does, i don't know

 

[11000]

hatcher: you made the decision to go to the school you're going to, and you're satisfied/happy with your decision, right? good for you. but why all of the insecurity? you don't need to justify your "merits"--you are no longer an applicant--your high mcat scores, undergrad performance, and high acceptance rate do not really matter now... from now on you are just another 1st year student at your medical school...

don't vent your frustrations about how rank/reputation is represented/misrepresented by society on kevin. i think he presented an opinion that is shared by many people (and one that is not entirely without merit).

remain well,
swaroop

 

[dr kevin40]

hatcher,

I think my wording was not correct. instead of the top third "should" i shoulda written "is given pref by residency directors" above the top 5% of lower schools. u def have a lot of anger


lizardking,

LOL~~~ i think i'm on track to get to >1000 posts.
do u think that ifu had same stats, if u had gone to a different school say ivy, u'd have gotten more outright acceptances? i really was amazed at the # of bac/mds ur yr w/ excellent creds that r staying at our school.

 

[Med4ever]

Its an honour to have started a thread that is so heated.

I just wanted to know if I wanted to do ortho surgury what would ensure me a good chance of getting a residency ANYWHERE. Yup Im willing to go to the styx to do it.

 

[yaoming]

I just hope this is not the way our doctors of tomorrow will discuss issues such as abortion, embryonic stem cell research, etc.

 

[LizardKing]

Hey kevin, it's tough to say if I would've gotten more outright acceptances. But looking at the acceptance lists to Hopkins, Michigan, UPenn, etc. it seems they take an AWFUL LOT of people from the Ivies. Take Yale Med for instance. 33% of their class is from Yale and Harvard alone. A little over 50% of their entering class is from the Ivies! I find it hard to believe that they can't find as many qualified applicants elsewhere.

My speculation: If I scaled my GPA down a little bit and had the same MCAT coming from Harvard, I might have gotten a couple more interviews. This is just from my observations during my interviews. Interviewers would always ask me, "So why did you pick USC?" in a rather condescending tone. I wonder if they ask that question to Harvard grads?

Originally posted by dr kevin40
hatcher,

I think my wording was not correct. instead of the top third "should" i shoulda written "is given pref by residency directors" above the top 5% of lower schools. u def have a lot of anger


lizardking,

LOL~~~ i think i'm on track to get to >1000 posts.
do u think that ifu had same stats, if u had gone to a different school say ivy, u'd have gotten more outright acceptances? i really was amazed at the # of bac/mds ur yr w/ excellent creds that r staying at our school.

 

[yaoming]

What I dont get is, why cant someone pick UCDavis or UCBerkeley undergrads because of price and location over ivy leagues. If they got into all ivy leagues as well as UCs for undergrad and went to a UC, is that person dumber or less qualified than someone who did choose an ivy. i went to ucla and i know someone who went to columbia and i got better grades, mcat scores, interviews, and acceptance over him for med school. lizardking, i think you shoulda told ur interviewer something similar to this, that would've been cool.

 

[joetxe]

when you talk about top 10%, top 30%, top 5%. what ranking system are you refering to?

 

[Renovar]

Wow this has become a heated debate! In my opinion (from talking to several residents, the dean of students at my school, and the residency director of medicine and med/peds at my school) here is what I think:

School name has some effect on residency matching. THis is an UNDISPUTED truth. If you are an average student at Harvard and Hopkins, with all else being equal (ie. boards, letter of recc, research, etc etc), you will match FAR BETTER (ie. have more options in terms of specialty, more interviews) than an average student from, say, U of Nebraska medical school if they apply to the same residency programs.

Now, I think the argument some people are making on this board is: "if you are top 5% from a no name state school you can match better than the bottom 25% student than students from top schools." This argument is also true. But this argument has nothing to do with the question we started out with, ie. "does the rank of medical school matter for residency?" People who make this argument is comparing apples and oranges! There are many people who are outstanding who attend medical schools that are non-top-10 but can bring it with the best of them in clinical performance and boards (some may even be accepted by a top school but decided to go to their state school to save $). Conversely, there are students in top schools who might get into a "top 10" school with credentials that are impressive (ie. olympic gold medalist and go to Harvard med) but are below average in terms of raw performance data (like boards, etc) and be favored less by residency.

The bottom line is, residency directors look for QUALITY medical graduates, REGARDLESS of where you go to school. With this said, residency directors also know that on the whole, the average Hopkins Med grad is better qualified than the average Joe Schmoe State SOM grad. With all this said, the original question can be answered in 2 ways:

1. The average medical student from a top ranked school, with all things considered, is going to have advantage over an average medical student from a "no name" school

2. If we hold the absolute performance of a medical student equal. Say a very well qualified MS4 applying to a residency program - it doesn't matter which med school he/she is from - quality is quality, no matter where you put it. It's just happens that the top schools attract higher percentage of the top pre-med students, and in terms of raw performance data, tend to do better than no-name schools.

ie. if you are good, you are good - no matter where you go to school. But on average, people from top schools are better qualified than those from no name schools.

There... My 2 cents.

 

[Mr.D]

Ditto.

 

[joetxe]

I do think it matters what school you go to. When I was applying to med school I was accepted at one school with no name. I wanted to do Ortho so I went through their match lists from several years and realized no student from that school had matched in a known Ortho program (ie Harvard).

Luckily, I then received acceptance from an Ivy school. When I went through their match list there were 2 students that year and 1 student the previous year who had matched at the Harvard Ortho Program. Not to mention the incredible names (Harvard, Columbia, Yale...) for other specialties. My decision was pretty clear, Ivy baby!

I am now a 3rd year and I'm looking forward to matching in one of those top ortho programs. I know it would've been very hard!! to do it from the school I was accepted first.

So I think school matters.

 

[atsai3]

Please refer to this thread (http://www.studentdoctor.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40872) for data on the factors considered by residency program directors.

Cheers
-a.

 

[MacGyver]

OK let me get this straight.... Program directors discriminate against DOs rampantly, but when it comes to allopathic programs, they are completely fair and impartial?

You understand why I'm skeptical about that