Does M1 and M2 serve a real purpose?

[DermViser]

Seriously? Like his professor did something wrong? God bless the professor that doesn't waste your time and lets you go and memorize a table your own way. I'm sure Arkie had access to the slides and table.

I'm not. You're misreading my tone. I think the reason you resent others for doing well is you don't take responsibility or own your shortcomings. Work.

Genius, I'm saying a table showing ECF/ICF stuff with hyper/hypo/isotonic saline, is what he wanted students to memorize. It's not supposed to be memorized.

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[DermViser]

Did I miss something? I didn't see that it was a table for ECF/ICF. When has a table ever been made for that? I thought he was complaining that tables are just put up and he's not happy about them not explaining the tables.

Edit: Genius, I've gone back to read the exchange. Where did you come up with the idea he was talking specifically about an ECF/ICF/osmolarity table? Give the professor some credit.

Oh, I don't know, maybe the part where he said: "I distinctly remember pounding that stupid hypotonic/isotonic/hypertonic X ECF/ICF/Concentrations **** table into my head..."

 

[DermViser]

I want you to admit that you're pathologically obnoxious.

Just for pointing out something that you missed (thus destroying your entire premise)?

 

[Anastomoses]

Just for pointing out something that you missed (thus destroying your entire premise)?

For the insufferable degree of sarcasm you feel the need to bring on every time someone says something that doesn't hit the spot for you.

 

[DermViser]

For the insufferable degree of sarcasm you feel the need to bring on every time someone says something that doesn't hit the spot for you.

Your quote:

Did I miss something? I didn't see that it was a table for ECF/ICF. When has a table ever been made for that? I thought he was complaining that tables are just put up and he's not happy about them not explaining the tables.

Edit: Genius, I've gone back to read the exchange. Where did you come up with the idea he was talking specifically about an ECF/ICF/osmolarity table? Give the professor some credit.

I said:

Oh, I don't know, maybe the part where he said: "I distinctly remember pounding that stupid hypotonic/isotonic/hypertonic X ECF/ICF/Concentrations **** table into my head..."

 

[Anastomoses]

Your quote, where you sarcastically say, Genius:


I said:

I was mocking YOUR genius comment! Nevermind. Just...nevermind.

 

[DermViser]

I was mocking YOUR genius comment! Nevermind. Just...nevermind.

Oh, yes I forgot. LOL.

 

[username456789]

I've never understood how "surprised" or angry med students get when they find out that medical school involves a metric ton of memorization. I mean, you can't actually be serious, right?

Gotta learn to crawl before you walk.

Gotta learn the alphabet before you win your Pulitzer.

 

[Brain Bucket]

I've never understood how "surprised" or angry med students get when they find out that medical school involves a metric ton of memorization. I mean, you can't actually be serious, right?

Gotta learn to crawl before you walk.

Gotta learn the alphabet before you win your Pulitzer.

Memorizing stuff that will directly affect the quality of care you provide your patients - no problemo.

Memorizing random bull**** - a waste of my life - the one that I should be having instead of spending several extra hours each days stuck in the library.

 

[Serous Demilune]

BUT WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU DON'T LEARN EVERYTHING??? DO PEOPLE DIE?

 

[username456789]

Memorizing stuff that will directly affect the quality of care you provide your patients - no problemo.

Memorizing random bullcrap - a waste of my life - the one that I should be having instead of spending several extra hours each days stuck in the library.

Except that med students are notoriously bad at predicting what truly is "random bullcrap." I was one of them myself.

A lot if this "random bullcrap" will be repeated on the wards, on future Step exams, in residency, and on inservice/licensing exams. Not to mention, in practice.

Medical students love to malign their terrible fate, forced to memorize details that couldn't possibly be of future relevance. Except they're often wrong.

Knowing all the minutiae pays off in spades. Straight facts, homie. It also makes reviewing it (rather than relearning it) for future exams/clinical encounters so much easier.

 

[username456789]

I'll also add that placing straight up fact memorization on exams helps separate the students who truly have the ability to absorb and digest massive amounts of information the most effectively. Everyone in medical school is smart, but you're not going to get a blue ribbon just for showing up.

 

[DermViser]

I've never understood how "surprised" or angry med students get when they find out that medical school involves a metric ton of memorization. I mean, you can't actually be serious, right?

Gotta learn to crawl before you walk.

Gotta learn the alphabet before you win your Pulitzer.

Maybe bc the actual practice of medicine isn't memorization which is what attracts people to medicine? Memorization doesn't require actual cognitive ability - which even freakin' Rainman could do. There are tons of idiot savants in medical school who can rote memorize minutiae from powerpoints for regurgitation at test-time and have no ability to understand and apply what they just read. This behavior is unfortunately rewarded greatly in years MS-1/MS-2. The conceptual learners/application (i.e. more Engineering types) don't do as well in the first 2 years. That's the issue I think they have.

I do agree - it's hard for med students while they're in it to know which facts are minutiae and which aren't until long after they're past that stage. Ironically enough, USMLE Step 1 which tests the info from MS-1/MS-2 is no longer a rote memorization test (much to the idiot savants' chagrin, I'm sure).

 

[Brain Bucket]

Except that med students are notoriously bad at predicting what truly is "random bullcrap." I was one of them myself.

A lot if this "random bullcrap" will be repeated on the wards, on future Step exams, in residency, and on inservice/licensing exams. Not to mention, in practice.

Medical students love to malign their terrible fate, forced to memorize details that couldn't possibly be of future relevance. Except they're often wrong.

Knowing all the minutiae pays off in spades. Straight facts, homie. It also makes reviewing it (rather than relearning it) for future exams/clinical encounters so much easier.

Medicine involves lifelong learning, but it can and should be better organised so that we can lead happier lives and serve our patients better. Just because it has been done a certain way thus far, doesn't make it the best way.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

 

[DermViser]

Medicine involves lifelong learning, but it can and should be better organised so that we can lead happier lives and serve our patients better. Just because it has been done a certain way thus far, doesn't make it the best way.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

A LOT of medical education and training is the self-induced mentality of "If I had to go through it, so should you and worse". It's why parts of medicine are being taken over by "alternatives" (aided by scope of practice legislation) which are slowly encroaching on areas traditionally held by physicians, esp. since they can pump them out faster (i.e. NPs/PAs).

 

[Arkangeloid]

Maybe bc the actual practice of medicine isn't memorization which is what attracts people to medicine? Memorization doesn't require actual cognitive ability - which even freakin' Rainman could do. There are tons of idiot savants in medical school who can rote memorize minutiae from powerpoints for regurgitation at test-time and have no ability to understand and apply what they just read. This behavior is unfortunately rewarded greatly in years MS-1/MS-2. The conceptual learners/application (i.e. more Engineering types) don't do as well in the first 2 years. That's the issue I think they have.

I do agree - it's hard for med students while they're in it to know which facts are minutiae and which aren't until long after they're past that stage. Ironically enough, USMLE Step 1 which tests the info from MS-1/MS-2 is no longer a rote memorization test (much to the idiot savants' chagrin, I'm sure).

I think the issue is more the way they present the information. The professors here make it clear they want you to brute force memorize things, and who am I to disagree?

But it does leave a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[DermViser]

I think the issue is more the way they present the information. The professors here make it clear they want you to brute force memorize things, and who am I to disagree?

But it does leave a bad taste in my mouth.

Naturally, bc rote memorization is not your strong suit.

 

[Arkangeloid]

Naturally, bc rote memorization is not your strong suit.

I guess. I was a liberal arts major in college, and all we did was writing and discussion, which is pretty much diametrically different from this memorization thing.

 

[DermViser]

I guess. I was a liberal arts major in college, and all we did was writing and discussion, which is pretty much diametrically different from this memorization thing.

Which you most likely did bc it's an easy major in which you can finish your premed prereqs and easily obtain a high cumulative GPA.

 

[Arkangeloid]

Which you most likely did bc it's an easy major in which you can finish your premed prereqs and easily obtain a high cumulative GPA.

Well, time consuming, but if you put in the effort you would get As handed to you. Here, you can put in the effort and get nothing out of it.

 

[mcloaf]

I guess. I was a liberal arts major in college, and all we did was writing and discussion, which is pretty much diametrically different from this memorization thing.

When did liberal arts become a major? I went to a small liberal arts college and we still had regular majors.

 

[Arkangeloid]

When did liberal arts become a major? I went to a small liberal arts college and we still had regular majors.

I can't say my specific major because of identification risk. Rest assured it's quite uncommon in medicine.

 

[Brain Bucket]

I can't say my specific major because of identification risk. Rest assured it's quite uncommon in medicine.

Actually, it's not.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

 

[Mad Jack]

I can't say my specific major because of identification risk. Rest assured it's quite uncommon in medicine.

Whatever snowflake

 

[Arkangeloid]

Whatever snowflake

You talk big, premed. Enjoy it while it lasts, you talk like that to your seniors in med school and you'll pay the price.

 

[DermViser]

I can't say my specific major because of identification risk. Rest assured it's quite uncommon in medicine.

Oh, ok, I thought your major was actually Liberal Arts (to be fair that is a major).

 

[Anastomoses]

I think this "rote" vs "conceptualization" thing is silly. You need both. Period. You can mention Rainman or the most autistic emotionally vapid individual and it wouldn't change that these are still forms of intelligence.

Those who perform well have the most skills all-around. Anyone trying to push the "ohhh, I'm a more conceptual type and that's why I suck at this and those other people will get their comeuppance come clinicals" is ignorant of reality.

We have a guy in my class who would be all "gosh, this is all rote and I'm a deeper conceptual learner" and all I could think in my head was "even your concepts are weak, *******". But we're friends so...I don't say it aloud.

Sorry if I won't allow you that cold comfort.

 

[deleted564496]

I often wonder how much of it is actually be ingrained into my mind… I'm having to memorize all of this information, take a test, and then repeat with another huge stack of information.

It's impossible to keep up on the old information, while still learning the new information. I don't know, I guess I'll see what happens once step studying starts.

 

[DermViser]

I think this "rote" vs "conceptualization" thing is silly. You need both. Period. You can mention Rainman or the most autistic emotionally vapid individual and it wouldn't change that these are still forms of intelligence.

Those who perform well have the most skills all-around. Anyone trying to push the "ohhh, I'm a more conceptual type and that's why I suck at this and those other people will get their comeuppance come clinicals" is a ***** and ignorant of reality. I know a guy in my class who would be all "gosh, this is all rote and I'm a conceptual learner" and all I could think in my head was "you're an idiot...even your concepts are weak, *******". But we're friends so...I don't say it aloud.

Sorry if I won't allow you that cold comfort.

We're talking about MS-1/MS-2 where they main method of evaluation is multiple choice exams. Try to keep up.

 

[Arkangeloid]

I think this "rote" vs "conceptualization" thing is silly. You need both. Period. You can mention Rainman or the most autistic emotionally vapid individual and it wouldn't change that these are still forms of intelligence.

Those who perform well have the most skills all-around. Anyone trying to push the "ohhh, I'm a more conceptual type and that's why I suck at this and those other people will get their comeuppance come clinicals" is ignorant of reality.

We have a guy in my class who would be all "gosh, this is all rote and I'm a deeper conceptual learner" and all I could think in my head was "even your concepts are weak, *******". But we're friends so...I don't say it aloud.

Sorry if I won't allow you that cold comfort.

We're talking about MS-1/MS-2 where they main method of evaluation is multiple choice exams. Try to keep up.

Doing things like working through a mathematical proof, writing a term paper in History or English, and memorizing the anastomoses in the arm are completely different from one another. It's stupid to say that because somebody struggles at one of them, they must be a "*******."

Hell, even in medical school you can identify massive differences between subjects like Microbiology and subjects like Cardiology.


As a side note, in Neurology they taught us that a Multiple Choice exam tests primed memory, which on a neurological level, works differently than declarative memory (as laboratory experiments have corroborated).

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

So what is preventing students from graduating school and going into residency with limited preclinical knowledge, if not for Step 1 and a 65+ in every class? Or are there doctors out there that don't know this stuff, and therefore harm their patients? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just want your opinion.

I don't understand your question. Residency is determined by Step 1 scores AND third-year evals. If you know just review book stuff and can't apply it, you're not going to do well third year.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Nope. 1 and 2 is just a right of passage. Learning discipline, weeding people out, proving you belong,etc.

Said the first year...

 

[Arkangeloid]

Nope. 1 and 2 is just a right of passage. Learning discipline, weeding people out, proving you belong,etc.

Apparently the rite of passage doesn't check your spelling skills.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

The problem is that medical students are FLOODED with minutiae and tested on that minutiae by PhD professors who: 1) don't care to take the time to write well-written USMLE type test questions which have gone further away from testing minutiae and buzzwords (in the 1980s) towards testing conceptual application, 2) and don't care how you do on your boards, bc it's not like they get paid more if you do well.

I don't know where some of you go to school, but at my school, our professors ARE held accountable. The administration expects that some students won't do as well as others on some sections of the boards, but if the majority of the class bombs anatomy, you better believe the anatomy dept is held accountable. This is a fact at my school. It's a shame it isn't at yours.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

As much as I like to complain, of course it serves a purpose in its entirety.

Some things however that I wouldn't mind not doing:

TBL…no student should have the power to have a 1-1 Q&A with the prof while 150+ of us just sit there and send snapchats to each other. lol team learning.

What is TBL?

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

But isn't medicine, at least in the way that medical school presents it, all about memorizing superficial information and one-step word associations? I always felt like med school PUNISHED me for trying to be interested in and learn more about the material, because it meant I would fall behind.

No, it's the review books that teach you superficial information and one-step word associations. If you took the time to actually LEARN the material you're being taught in class, I guarantee you you'd learn the why. Don't blame med school for the way you choose to learn.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

What are you talking about? Superficial information? One step word associations? Could you possibly give some examples of these questions you're failing at on tests??

Medical school is about TONS of memorization (both superficial and DEEP) and TONS of conceptualization and TONS of integration. If you suck at any of those, you'll pay a price. Don't blame it on medical school. It's you.

THANK YOU!!! I was beginning to think I was living in the Twilight Zone and experienced medical school on a completely different planet than the posters on this thread. I don't remember a single exam that didn't have a majority of conceptualization questions and integration. One-word associations? If only! I'd probably have aced med school with one-word associations. It was ALL conceptual. Some posters just choose to dismiss it because they feel it's not helpful, then they blame medical education when they hate learning medicine from review books.

 

[ChEMD]

I think it's possible to do well on multiple choice tests just based off of rote memorization, but it is much easier to memorize things when you understand the concepts and are able to make associations between related material. Someone who just memorizes may do well on tests, but if you ask them to explain something, they won't be able to tell you much beyond repeating exactly what was written in the text.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Oh, I'm well aware that I suck at this stuff. That said, there's really nothing "deep" about our exams, whatever that means. Basically, the questions test which minutiae you memorized (or didn't). Perhaps this is different from year to year or school to school.

I wish I could provide you with examples of exam questions, but the school is very strict about forbidding students from recording or distributing any exam information in any way, so I don't have anything to show.

No one's asking you to quote an exam. We're asking you to give an example. My school is also strict about it, but I can give an example of the types of questions we used to get. Granted, our questions were usually much longer and more involved, but they were something like this.

John Doe walked into the Urgent Care with shortness of breath, tachycardia, and chest pain. You ordered a d-dimer which was ____ (positive result). What do you expect to be his ABGs to look like?

And then the answer choices would list specific ABGs (pH, bicarb, CO2, O2). I call that integrative, unless your professor went over the specific ABGs to look for in every acute situation and you memorized it (which my school didn't; they expected you to be able to take a clinical scenario and guess what was happening with the ABGs by understanding physiology).

 

[Arkangeloid]

THANK YOU!!! I was beginning to think I was living in the Twilight Zone and experienced medical school on a completely different planet than the posters on this thread. I don't remember a single exam that didn't have a majority of conceptualization questions and integration. One-word associations? If only! I'd probably have aced med school with one-word associations. It was ALL conceptual. Some posters just choose to dismiss it because they feel it's not helpful, then they blame medical education when they hate learning medicine from review books.

I think this differs from medical school to medical school.

Oh, and I wouldn't say that you could "ace" medical school if all the questions were one-word associations. Those are the hardest parts of our exam, because they try to find obscure associations. The conceptual and integrative questions are easy.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

EDIT: That was from a practice test, not the real test, but it might identify me.

I'll try to find some BRS things similar to what they test on.

Which of the following responses is mediated by parasympathetic muscarinic receptors?

a) Dilation of bronchiolar smooth muscle
b) Erection
c) Ejaculation
d) Constriction of the GI Sphincter
e) Increased Cardiac Contractility

You can eliminate A, D, and E, but you would never reliably get that right unless you remembered the "Point and Shoot" mnemonic.


Which of the following is NOT a step in rod photoreception?

a) Light converts trans rhodopsin to 11-cis rhodopsin
b) Metarhodopsin II activates transducin
c) cGMP levels decrease
d) Rods hyperpolarize

The question tests "which of these things doesn't look familiar."

This is what you're learning from BRS?????? Man, I'm glad I went to my school.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

. You are missing the point entirely.

No, she's not.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

I think this differs from medical school to medical school.

Oh, and I wouldn't say that you could "ace" medical school if all the questions were one-word associations. Those are the hardest parts of our exam, because they try to find obscure associations. The conceptual and integrative questions are easy.

Maybe you think the associations are obscure because you're memorizing rather than learning?

 

[Arkangeloid]

Maybe you think the associations are obscure because you're memorizing rather than learning?

I'm doing what my tutors and professors taught me to do, which was identify and memorize high yield information as best as I can. And it's helped me pass my classes. If "learning" worked at my school, I wouldn't have needed tutors to begin with.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Or that could be a rote memory question if you buzzwork associate dysdiadochokinesia = cerebellum.
A more application question is if they were to give you a clinical vignette of someone who has symptoms of being unable to alternately flip his hand on his other hand, and then I ask where is the lesion.

1) You have to know that the person has dysdiadochokinesia and 2) you have to know that dysdiadochokinesia is due to a lesion in the cerebellum.
It's a 2 step question, in which the first step isn't enough to get the answer.

And THESE are the types of questions we always got. My neuro exam was a nightmare with these things. They never told us the syndrome the person had. It was always a clinical vignette about so and so who had this horrible thing happen and these were the symptoms and then asked for the specific track affected or (and this is what killed a lot of people) told us the symptoms the person was having, then asked for the thalamic nuclei of the affected tract.

 

[Arkangeloid]

This is what you're learning from BRS?????? Man, I'm glad I went to my school.

That's pretty similar to the kind of stuff we get on exams (harder on exams though).

 

[Priapism4tooLong]

No one's asking you to quote an exam. We're asking you to give an example. My school is also strict about it, but I can give an example of the types of questions we used to get. Granted, our questions were usually much longer and more involved, but they were something like this.

John Doe walked into the Urgent Care with shortness of breath, tachycardia, and chest pain. You ordered a d-dimer which was ____ (positive result). What do you expect to be his ABGs to look like?

And then the answer choices would list specific ABGs (pH, bicarb, CO2, O2). I call that integrative, unless your professor went over the specific ABGs to look for in every acute situation and you memorized it (which my school didn't; they expected you to be able to take a clinical scenario and guess what was happening with the ABGs by understanding physiology).

this is so easy, even a caveman could do it

why would you order a d-dimer in this situation?

Patient walks in with chest pain.. D-DIMER STAT

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

this is so easy, even a caveman could do it

why would you order a d-dimer in this situation?

Patient walks in with chest pain.. D-DIMER STAT

Uh, I said in plain English that our questions were more involved. I was just giving a brief example to show a conceptual question to someone who apparently hadn't seen one.

As for why the d-dimer? Ask me that again after your ER rotation.

 

[Psai]

What is TBL?

terrible bs learning

it's actually team based learning

 

[Priapism4tooLong]

Uh, I said in plain English that our questions were more involved. I was just giving a brief example to show a conceptual question to someone who apparently hadn't seen one.

As for why the d-dimer? Ask me that again after your ER rotation.

you ask me that after your ER rotation