DO vs. Caribbean (with U.S. clinical rotations) for Residency Options

[nebuchadnezzarII]

I've been getting some inconsistent information about these routes. I've looked through the old threads and it looks like that it is easier to get a residency through a DO program. However, I'm also hearing that getting a residency in certain locations isn't too difficult through a MD program from a Caribbean Medical School, considering you have had clinical rotations in the United States.

Does anyone have any input on this? I am not sure what kind of medicine I want to go into. Pediatrics is something I'd like to explore as is surgery and emergency medicine. I failed to get into any MD schools last cycle (3.57 GPA, 3.26 sGPA, 34 MCAT). I am trying for MD and DO schools this cycle. I am also considering one of the reputable Caribbean Schools because I think there is a good chance for me getting a partial scholarship.

Thank you all.

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[DrMidlife]

1. pick a specialty, or two
2. google freida
3. pick maybe a dozen residencies that look interesting, include some that aren't at academic centers
4. find the current residents for those programs (often works by googling ie "farmville regional IM current residents")
5. repeat from #1 until you find some residencies that have people from schools you're considering, or schools similar to what you're considering
6. meanwhile absorb useful insights about residency that most premeds don't bother with

every other answer to your question is 100% speculation. the answer above is only about 75% speculation. you're a minimum of 5 years and 2 board exams from getting anything better than 75% speculation.

best of luck to you.

 

[nebuchadnezzarII]

every other answer to your question is 100% speculation. the answer above is only about 75% speculation. you're a minimum of 5 years and 2 board exams from getting anything better than 75% speculation.

Lol. Thank you DrMidlife. I've read many of your threads and your posts throughout the forum. I will look into what you recommended. If you have any other advice for me considering my situation, I would greatly appreciate it. If not, I still thank you for your time. Best of luck to you as well.

 

[kenjixshadow]

DO >>>>>>> Caribbean schools. Your number will likely to land you an acceptance with DO. Granted, you must work on your interview skills.

 

[nebuchadnezzarII]

DO >>>>>>> Caribbean schools. Your number will likely to land you an acceptance with DO. Granted, you must work on your interview skills.

Absolutely. Though, I don't think it had too much to do with my interview skills (probably more with my downwards trend in science GPA). I only got one interview. Thanks very much for your input. I was wary of DO initially because of its limitations in terms of overseas practice.

 

[kenjixshadow]

x

 

[nebuchadnezzarII]

Where are you going to practice medicine outside of US?

Beautiful and informative. Thank you.

 

[DrMidlife]

btw it's not like MDs have a cake walk into overseas practice. other countries require US docs to complete a residency, just like the US requires docs from other countries to do a residency. and nine million tons of paperwork, for the job as well as immigration, insurance etc.

Same for DOs. The difference is that if you want to practice in a locale that hadn't yet licensed a DO before, you have to blaze that trail. Not just at the country level, also at the province or state level. Just like the US requires of docs trained in systems that aren't well known.

 

[Goro]

Also keep in mind that AOA/ACGME merger means that Carib diploma mill grads will be squeezed out of more residency slots. That's one of the reasons for the merger. Cue argus to come in sputtering "but but, NRMP!"

 

[nebuchadnezzarII]

Also keep in mind that AOA/ACGME merger means that Carib diploma mill grads will be squeezed out of more residency slots. That's one of the reasons for the merger. Cue argus to come in sputtering "but but, NRMP!"

That's great news for DOs! Congrats to them. What do you mean by "but but, NRMP!"?

 

[ChrisMack390]

I've been getting some inconsistent information about these routes. I've looked through the old threads and it looks like that it is easier to get a residency through a DO program. However, I'm also hearing that getting a residency in certain locations isn't too difficult through a MD program from a Caribbean Medical School, considering you have had clinical rotations in the United States.

Does anyone have any input on this? I am not sure what kind of medicine I want to go into. Pediatrics is something I'd like to explore as is surgery and emergency medicine. I failed to get into any MD schools last cycle (3.57 GPA, 3.26 sGPA, 34 MCAT). I am trying for MD and DO schools this cycle. I am also considering one of the reputable Caribbean Schools because I think there is a good chance for me getting a partial scholarship.

Thank you all.

Any thoughts on why you didn't get in? Science GPA isn't spectacular but its not insurmountable either, especially with a solid sGPA and MCAT. Did you apply smartly and broadly? How was your clinical experience and other ECs?

 

[Goro]

In the Residency forums he always tries to shows that the Big 4 Carib grads get into residencies at ~70+ %rates. But the NRMP data he used are only for 1 year programs or lousy programs, and non are competitive.

That's great news for DOs! Congrats to them. What do you mean by "but but, NRMP!"?

 

[nebuchadnezzarII]

Any thoughts on why you didn't get in? Science GPA isn't spectacular not insurmountable either. How was your clinical experience and other EC?

A few thoughts -- wish I had discovered this place sooner. So, I think there were mainly 2 issues:
1. I applied VERY narrowly. I pretty much applied exclusively to NY schools. I thought they'd give me preference for being a resident, but considering that about half my list consisted of Mount Sinai, NYU, Columbia, Cornell, Albert Einstein, etc. (which have median acceptance GPAs nearing the 3.8-3.9 range), it was a stupid thing to do.
2. I had a downwards trend in my science GPA. I had an upwards trend that last/this year, so we'll see how it goes.

I think my other ECs were good, not GREAT, but decent (poster/presentation, volunteering during school year and summer, and a year of research internship.) I continued research last year so I hope that works for me. This year, I'm applying much more broadly...so I hope that works in my favor.

 

[ChrisMack390]

With a fine tuned school list and some more recent coursework I bet you can get into an MD program. Throw on some DO schools too and you'll be good to go.

 

[nebuchadnezzarII]

With a fine tuned school list and some more recent coursework I bet you can get into an MD program. Throw on some DO schools too and you'll be good to go.

Thanks bud. I hope so too. The war isn't over yet.

 

[Grace184]

You're darn right it's not! No need for looting in the Caribbean just yet (actually never. For anyone)!

 

[manny24]

what if a carribean student has a higher usmle score than the DO student. How would PD choose from the two?

 

[Seth Joo]

I've been getting some inconsistent information about these routes. I've looked through the old threads and it looks like that it is easier to get a residency through a DO program. However, I'm also hearing that getting a residency in certain locations isn't too difficult through a MD program from a Caribbean Medical School, considering you have had clinical rotations in the United States.

Does anyone have any input on this? I am not sure what kind of medicine I want to go into. Pediatrics is something I'd like to explore as is surgery and emergency medicine. I failed to get into any MD schools last cycle (3.57 GPA, 3.26 sGPA, 34 MCAT). I am trying for MD and DO schools this cycle. I am also considering one of the reputable Caribbean Schools because I think there is a good chance for me getting a partial scholarship.

Thank you all.

DO is much better than Caribbean schools for a number of reasons, particularly with your numbers you will get in somewhere.

 

[DrMidlife]

Maybe we'll get an opinion on this from gyngyn or another physician who reviews residency apps.

In my experience (small) the perceptions are changing rapidly, because the number of schools has been increasing so fast.

Back-of-the-envelope estimate of how a PD would view qualified Carib vs. DO candidates who are otherwise equivalent:
1. student rotated with the program as an M3 or M4 (you know if this is you)
2. student has a letter from faculty the PD knows well (you might know)
3. student is from a school that had a good resident (or more) in the program before (usually public info on the program website)
4. student is from a school that PD knows well from various interactions with grads (no way to know)
5. student is from a school that the PD knows is doing responsible management of rotations and hasn't been in a recent scandal (read the news)
6. student is from a school that the PD has heard of before (no way to know)
7. student is from a school that the PD has never heard of (no way to know)
8. student is from a school that the PD has never heard of and is in the first graduating class (you know if this is you)
9. PD has 10x more apps than can be reviewed so all the DOs and all the IMGs are out (if there's never been a DO or IMG in the program)

Usually, long before the PD sees an app, the PD has set the review protocol for the year and the residents and other faculty have done first pass review.

 

[manny24]

At the end of the day, all that matters is the usmle scores, be it DO or IMG. If a IMG gets 210 and a DO gets 200. The IMG will get preferred.

 

[DrMidlife]

You asked but you have the answer already? Lol. Hope you do better than 210.

 

[Seth Joo]

At the end of the day, all that matters is the usmle scores, be it DO or IMG. If a IMG gets 210 and a DO gets 200. The IMG will get preferred.

This is the reason why you cannot trust studentdoctor.net, because this site is full of disinformation like this.

 

[DrMidlife]

It doesn't matter. If you get an IMG with a 210 and a DO with a 205 and an MD with a 200 nobody is getting "preferred".

You have to get interviewed and you have to get ranked. There's a TON more info in a residency app than a med school app, and it DOES get reviewed.

 

[Seth Joo]

I've been getting some inconsistent information about these routes. I've looked through the old threads and it looks like that it is easier to get a residency through a DO program. However, I'm also hearing that getting a residency in certain locations isn't too difficult through a MD program from a Caribbean Medical School, considering you have had clinical rotations in the United States.

Does anyone have any input on this? I am not sure what kind of medicine I want to go into. Pediatrics is something I'd like to explore as is surgery and emergency medicine. I failed to get into any MD schools last cycle (3.57 GPA, 3.26 sGPA, 34 MCAT). I am trying for MD and DO schools this cycle. I am also considering one of the reputable Caribbean Schools because I think there is a good chance for me getting a partial scholarship.

Thank you all.

I would say you have been reading the propaganda of the Caribbean schools far too much, many of the bigger Caribbean schools claim 90 percent USMLE pass rates and that 90 percent of their graduates get a residency, but you have to think about the numbers. A large number of students do not make it past the basic sciences, many students fail out in the first semester, they usually weed a lot of people out during the first two years, keeping only the people they are certain are going to pass the boards to make their pass numbers look good. Students fail out of Caribbean schools, a large number of them schools like Ross fail out as much as 50 percent of their entering class.

DO schools are not perfect either, but at least they ain't like Caribbean schools either.

 

[DrMidlife]

Totally agree: the Carib 50%-and-rising fail out rates and 50%-and-falling match rate (and lack of transparency about all that on those glossy posters) are why you choose DO over Carib.

 

[Seth Joo]

Totally agree: the Carib 50%-and-rising fail out rates and 50%-and-falling match rate (and lack of transparency about all that on those glossy posters) are why you choose DO over Carib.

That and at least at a DO school you will have access to consistent running water and electricity, something you will not have regular access to on some Caribbean island. We in America take these things for granted but for people in many parts of Earth this is a luxury for them.


The schools are going to sell you the idea that going their school is like being on an extended Caribbean vacation, news flash, its not going to be like that at all, you will likely be living in subpar third world housing, likely to be in crowded classrooms without air conditioning, you will probably be really homesick, and will probably want to get off that island as soon as possible, its not going to be fun.

Make your life easier, and given your stats, make a wise choice, go to a DO school.

 

[DrMidlife]

Um, no, the wifi is unreliable, but these are tourist islands, so they have electricity & AC.

Hey did you know the US invaded Grenada in the 1980's, not because there was a coup and the neighborhood islands begged for US help, but because there were a few hundred US kids at SGU? The news made it sound like the students were being held hostage but that was total BS. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada

 

[manny24]

It doesn't matter. If you get an IMG with a 210 and a DO with a 205 and an MD with a 200 nobody is getting "preferred".

You have to get interviewed and you have to get ranked. There's a TON more info in a residency app than a med school app, and it DOES get reviewed.

if it does not matter then why are you saying that DO is better than caribbean??

 

[manny24]

That and at least at a DO school you will have access to consistent running water and electricity, something you will not have regular access to on some Caribbean island. We in America take these things for granted but for people in many parts of Earth this is a luxury for them.


The schools are going to sell you the idea that going their school is like being on an extended Caribbean vacation, news flash, its not going to be like that at all, you will likely be living in subpar third world housing, likely to be in crowded classrooms without air conditioning, you will probably be really homesick, and will probably want to get off that island as soon as possible, its not going to be fun.

Make your life easier, and given your stats, make a wise choice, go to a DO school.

dude, we are talking strictly about obtaining residency, not lifestyle. All I'm saying is, it does not matter if you are AMG or IMG, if you score well on USMLE you will get residency. If an IMG has a higher USMLE score he will likely get more interviews. Also carribean schools are much cheaper.

 

[DrMidlife]

if it does not matter then why are you saying that DO is better than caribbean??

Come out of Carib with a 200/210 or DO with a 200/210 or USMD with 200/210, maybe throw in some failures along the way: degree doesn't matter. You'lll aim low and be lucky to match.

As a premed trying to make a smart choice (vs an M4 trying to make a smart choice) you have to look at the failout rates and the match rates. DO is CLEARLY better.

BUT you also have to not kid yourself about your preparedness. For example if you take an acceptance from a med school that lets you in with a ~3.0 and no streak of A's in hard classes and a bad MCAT (such as <25 on the old scale) then you're digging your own grave.

Let go of needing things to be black & white or crystal clear. That's not real life.

 

[MehDO]

If an IMG has a higher USMLE score he will likely get more interviews. Also carribean schools are much cheaper.

Unlikely to be true. I have many IMG friends, and there is a reason why they need to pan-apply to ~80-100 residency programs while the DOs don't.

edit: and many of them have higher scores than we do

 

[gyngyn]

PD's are aware of the reasons that someone goes to the Caribbean.
It's not a pretty differential.
The odds that a DO student suffers from hubris, parental pressure, IA's and unreported felonies are much smaller.
The DO pool's greatest weakness is likely to be "late blooming." This is not a serious offense compared to the Caribbean pool.

 

[Seth Joo]

dude, we are talking strictly about obtaining residency, not lifestyle. All I'm saying is, it does not matter if you are AMG or IMG, if you score well on USMLE you will get residency. If an IMG has a higher USMLE score he will likely get more interviews. Also carribean schools are much cheaper.

Maybe you should study some arithmetic, because the tuition at some of the better Caribbean schools is about the same as most DO schools, SGU is actually more expensive than most DO schools and is considered to be the most reputable island school. Ross and AUC are also expensive schools. The match rates for DOs is way better than for Caribbean graduates, look up the numbers. There are also AOA residencies just for DOs.

 

[Seth Joo]

This morning I flushed my toilet, shaved, took a shower, turned on and off the lights without a thought, on some Caribbean island you would have to cross your fingers for those things to happen without a hitch, in the middle of a busy semester, imagine having to take a shower before your classes, getting shaved, or having to do your business, now that would be no fun, before a full day of class. If you were going to some medical school in the UK, Ireland, Canada, then you might have a point being better than a DO school, but you are going to a school on a Caribbean island that was made for profit of people like you.

 

[DrMidlife]

My USMD school is in a big US city that has more power and water outages than the average tourist island in the Caribbean.

If the fail out counts and the match rates aren't enough to dissuade somebody from doing med school in the Carib, why bother.

 

[Seth Joo]

My USMD school is in a big US city that has more power and water outages than the average tourist island in the Caribbean.

If the fail out counts and the match rates aren't enough to dissuade somebody from doing med school in the Carib, why bother.

Most of the pricey hotels in the Caribbean have back up generators and water systems, that is why you never experience what the locals do with regards to power outages and water disruptions. Say what you want about America but we got the best infrastructure on Earth for a country our size with our population, sure some European countries and Japan might outshine us in that department, but the water runs and the electric power is reliable in most US cities.

The power outages that happen at some of the big Caribbean schools are very frequent, like several times a day, enough to be more than a minor annoyance.

 

[manny24]

Guys, I personally know students who had 3.7 GPA and ~28 MCAT, they wanted MD so they decided to go carribean despite DO acceptences. These students will not fail out in carribean because their stats show they are hardworking and smart. These students will succeed in school and obtain residency. Its all about the individual be it IMG or AMG.

 

[Goro]

So much ignorance, so little time.

At the end of the day, all that matters is the usmle scores, be it DO or IMG. If a IMG gets 210 and a DO gets 200. The IMG will get preferred.

"you will get residency" meaning "you have a 50% chance of landing a residency, which will most likely be in a poor program, and is also more likely to be a preliminary (short -term or dead end)) than a categorical (long-term leading a life as a doctor, and not being unemployed and deeply in debt.)

dude, we are talking strictly about obtaining residency, not lifestyle. All I'm saying is, it does not matter if you are AMG or IMG, if you score well on USMLE you will get residency. If an IMG has a higher USMLE score he will likely get more interviews. Also carribean schools are much cheaper.

Add to this list: extreme gullibility, inability to delay gratification, magic thinking, inability to do proper research, and to leap before looking.

PD's are aware of the reasons that someone goes to the Caribbean.
It's not a pretty differential.
The odds that a DO student suffers from hubris, parental pressure, IA's and unreported felonies is much smaller.
The DO pool's greatest weakness is likely to be "late blooming." This is not a serious offense compared to the Caribbean pool.

I personally know lottery winners, but I don't run out and buy lotto tickets. Browse through the IMG section of SDN and you'll find that at least 25% of the posts are of this variety:

"I've failed out of a Carib school. can I get into another med school"

OR

"I'm a Carib grad and have passed Step I, but can't land a residency"

It's not happy forum.

Guys, I personally know students who had 3.7 GPA and ~28 MCAT, they wanted MD so they decided to go carribean despite DO acceptences. These students will not fail out in carribean because their stats show they are hardworking and smart. These students will succeed in school and obtain residency. Its all about the individual be it IMG or AMG.

 

[lockjaw]

At the end of the day, all that matters is the usmle scores, be it DO or IMG. If a IMG gets 210 and a DO gets 200. The IMG will get preferred.

Definitely not true at many programs. My program doesn't review IMG applications, so even if you get a 260 on the USMLE, you're not getting an interview here because we'll never see that score (and scores aren't everything, anyways). We've interviewed 1 Caribbean student in the last 2 years, and that was because she rotated here (we have a ton of IMG rotators because that's set up through the medical school and we have no say over who rotates here) and the attending and resident who worked with her strongly advocated for her to get an interview. Even though she had a solid application and interviewed well, we still ranked her fairly low on our list because she was from a Caribbean school where you just don't know what the quality of education is and how well prepared she'd be in our program. We routinely rank DO students high enough to match here if they wanted to come here. Yes, there will be programs that typically review IMG applications and place a lot of weight on USMLE scores, but it's definitely wrong to say that all that matters in the end is the USMLE scores - that's far from the truth.

 

[gyngyn]

All I'm saying is, it does not matter if you are AMG or IMG, if you score well on USMLE you will get residency. If an IMG has a higher USMLE score he will likely get more interviews. Also carribean schools are much cheaper.

Actually, the passing USMLE score for a successful US IMG was not substantially different from that of their unsuccessful peers. Those who matched had a mean Step 1 score of 217, unmatched: 204. Though they are both pretty low, the data does not support high stats being a defining characteristic of successful US IMG's. In my experience, really high stats are a red flag: why would someone capable of getting a score that high choose to go to the Caribbean (pretty scary). We don't interview Caribbean grads but if we did, both high and low scores would be exclusion criteria. Success for US IMG's does seem more likely to be associated with a larger number of contiguous ranks. The more interviews you get, the more you can rank. To your point regarding AMG's, there were 56 US Seniors with Step 1 scores >241 that did not match in Ortho. Scores do not guarantee success for anyone in the very competitive specialties.
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Charting-Outcomes-2014-Final.pdf
http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf

 

[peaceno1]

DO >>>>>>> Caribbean schools. Your number will likely to land you an acceptance with DO. Granted, you must work on your interview skills.

I am a Canadian Citizen. I have 3.5 GPA, 2015 MCAT score of 509, yet to get my degree (have 105 credits). What are my options? I understand MD/DO in US is a distant possibility. Any advise about Carribean med. schools to choose?

 

[Goro]

None of them. If that's your only choice, then find a different career, because it will be cheaper than having a useless MD degree and deeply in debt.

Any advise about Carribean med. schools to choose?

 

[GrapesofRath]

I am a Canadian Citizen. I have 3.5 GPA, 2015 MCAT score of 509, yet to get my degree (have 105 credits). What are my options? I understand MD/DO in US is a distant possibility. Any advise about Carribean med. schools to choose?

You can be competitive for some DO's that take internationals.

 

[ChrisMack390]

I am a Canadian Citizen. I have 3.5 GPA, 2015 MCAT score of 509, yet to get my degree (have 105 credits). What are my options? I understand MD/DO in US is a distant possibility. Any advise about Carribean med. schools to choose?

What are your ECs like? I don't think all hope is lost with a 3.5/509. Worst case you have to work for a while and build a fantastic resume or do an SMP first.

 

[QueenJames]

I know PLENTY of friends and fam that went the carib route... Just wanted to add... the Subways in Caribbean suck. How the hell do you run out of bread and tomatoes and have to wait an entire week until your next "shipment" comes in??? BLASPHEMY I TELL YOU!

 

[Mad Jack]

Any thoughts on why you didn't get in? Science GPA isn't spectacular but its not insurmountable either, especially with a solid sGPA and MCAT. Did you apply smartly and broadly? How was your clinical experience and other ECs?

His sGPA is really low for MD.

 

[Seth Joo]

What are your ECs like? I don't think all hope is lost with a 3.5/509. Worst case you have to work for a while and build a fantastic resume or do an SMP first.

He is a Canadian citizen, if he was American I think he would be okay for a most mid tier and lower tier DO schools. Many DO schools want US citizens. As far as Caribbean schools, as long as you are willing to be limited to Primary Care and if you can do well on your boards and you go to one of the better programs you might have a fighting chance. That being said its still no guarantee of matching as an IMG, the overall match rate is only 50 percent, for DOs its around 75 yo 80 percent, that is a pretty big difference, if you count in AOA programs its over 94 percent the first time around.

The OP though would be golden for a DO School. It would still be worth his time for applying to a good DO school over a Caribbean school given the better opportunities.

 

[Seth Joo]

Guys, I personally know students who had 3.7 GPA and ~28 MCAT, they wanted MD so they decided to go carribean despite DO acceptences. These students will not fail out in carribean because their stats show they are hardworking and smart. These students will succeed in school and obtain residency. Its all about the individual be it IMG or AMG.

People with those GPAs would be perfect for most DO schools, they would have far less headaches to deal with than going to some school on some island in the middle of nowhere. DO schools are not on the same level as MD schools but at least you will get a residency and then a job.

 

[Dohnut]

Most of the pricey hotels in the Caribbean have back up generators and water systems, that is why you never experience what the locals do with regards to power outages and water disruptions. Say what you want about America but we got the best infrastructure on Earth for a country our size with our population, sure some European countries and Japan might outshine us in that department, but the water runs and the electric power is reliable in most US cities.

The power outages that happen at some of the big Caribbean schools are very frequent, like several times a day, enough to be more than a minor annoyance.

Why so serious Seth? DrMidlife was just trying to make a point while sounding funny

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I am a Canadian Citizen. I have 3.5 GPA, 2015 MCAT score of 509, yet to get my degree (have 105 credits). What are my options? I understand MD/DO in US is a distant possibility. Any advise about Carribean med. schools to choose?

There are about 10 Canadians or so at my school. The DO Canadian route is a bit of a struggle, but hey, you're living in the first world and you're going to graduate, so it's much better than Carib.