DO; to remain separate or merge with MD?

[Iliketoytles]

You realize when you write like this you just come across as a teenaged know-it-all, right? I mean, I actually agree with you on so many points, but I have to cut through your d-bag explanations and johnny-over-Dramatizations what the DO degree and education is.

You know that I am a big supporter of converting DO to MD, but people like you make it difficult to make a sane argument. When you throw random facts at people and insult them, or their education (which is what you are doing, believe it or not) not only do you come off as a jerk, but you marginalize your argument and entrench people more deeply in their own beliefs.

DO schools are not just lower tier MD schools. Thats an over-simplification and you know it. The top tier schools are basically equal to many MD programs and will continue to grow. If they weren't discriminated by residency programs, they would be indiscernible from many MD programs, and thats not their fault so it says nothing to their quality.

OMM isn't all pseudoscience either. Again, you have seen me say that we should be defined by OMM, but hell, it works. Massage works. Electrotherapy works. These are complementary therapies because they are crap alone, but they sure to help the healing process along. With more academic and clinical attention, complementary therapies could be a big benefit to general practice and could help the gen public achieve greater wellness. They can't replace surgery, and can be abused like any other treatment, but if it helps people its ok for doctors who want to pursue it to do so. Medicine is an ever growing, ever learning science. Its good to be academically skeptical, but if you seriously tell yourself that OMM is the same as energy crystals then you are either lying to yourself or you are too closed minded for your own good.

I gotta agree with this. Well said.

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[psychgirrrl]

Basically, I agree with HalfListic.

Honestly I don't care what tier my medical school is as long as I know my material well enough to treat my patients and am certified to do so, I don't care. I think this "tier" system is overrated.

 

[TXKnight]

Why is this of such relevance for many?

 

[Ost3oclast]

why is this of such relevance for many?

+1

 

[deleted103644]

I will say that I do believe you're right that OMM has pseudoscience limitations, and in that sense, I would agree to removing the aspects that aren't scientifically verifiable. However, I'm not one to really be swayed by the idea that we should reject a historical figure because not everything he believed in became scientifically accurate. We still give great respect to Darwin, yet we know that he didn't have Mendelian beliefs of genetics.

Yes, but Darwin contributed to scientific knowledge. AT Still did not contribute anything worthwhile.

I don't like the idea of COCA allowing for-profit schools, but I also don't like the idea that we should hand everything to LCME. But again, that does not affect MDs in any way.

If you are treating MD and DO as equal under the law, then it affects both if schools are being created that don't provide proper training. All of the arguments you guys use against the Caribbean MD schools work equally well against some of the new DO programs.

Either way, if you expect for everyone in the COCA/AOA leadership to give up their power to the LCME, you're smoking crack. The closest I can ever see to a compromise is allowing for earners of the D.O. degree to be licensed as MD's and be able to advertise as such in similar fashion to MBBS graduates.

No, I think the AOA is the problem and will not be part of the solution. If the ACGME cuts off residency spots, students will petition their schools to convert or simply stop applying.

 

[deleted103644]

You realize when you write like this you just come across as a teenaged know-it-all, right? I mean, I actually agree with you on so many points, but I have to cut through your d-bag explanations and johnny-over-Dramatizations what the DO degree and education is.

You know that I am a big supporter of converting DO to MD, but people like you make it difficult to make a sane argument. When you throw random facts at people and insult them, or their education (which is what you are doing, believe it or not) not only do you come off as a jerk, but you marginalize your argument and entrench people more deeply in their own beliefs.

I know this is a sensitive subject for many, but I don't need to be particularly diplomatic in an Internet forum. You can argue against the content of what I'm saying, but being upset that it's too insensitive is not my problem.

DO schools are not just lower tier MD schools. Thats an over-simplification and you know it. The top tier schools are basically equal to many MD programs and will continue to grow. If they weren't discriminated by residency programs, they would be indiscernible from many MD programs, and thats not their fault so it says nothing to their quality.

Did I say they were lower than MD schools? No, I just said they were in the lower tier. You guys like to compare the flagship MSU DO programs to the MSU MD programs and that is a fair comparison. Those MD schools are lower tier as well.

OMM isn't all pseudoscience either. Again, you have seen me say that we should be defined by OMM, but hell, it works. Massage works. Electrotherapy works. These are complementary therapies because they are crap alone, but they sure to help the healing process along. With more academic and clinical attention, complementary therapies could be a big benefit to general practice and could help the gen public achieve greater wellness. They can't replace surgery, and can be abused like any other treatment, but if it helps people its ok for doctors who want to pursue it to do so. Medicine is an ever growing, ever learning science. Its good to be academically skeptical, but if you seriously tell yourself that OMM is the same as energy crystals then you are either lying to yourself or you are too closed minded for your own good.

Energy crystals make people feel good too.

Many placebos are effective, and I wish we could legally prescribe them. The people who make money marketing them, however, are scum.

There may be benefits to physical manipulation beyond placebo effects, but the OMM discipline is the wrong place to start studying them.

I'm not sure if there are any studies on this yet like there are for acupuncture, but I'm sure sham OMM is 100% as effective as real OMM, which would mean you need to start over from scratch for your theoretical framework.

There's no point in studying a theory which is unscientific just because a few practices from it may have a benefit (and that may just be placebo anyway).

 

[Wolverines83]

Why is this of such relevance for many?

I don't know. I guess some people have such insecurities that they have to constantly rank themselves or prove to others that they're better. Constantly worried about what others think? Must suck to be them.

P.S. Johnny. Be mature about this. You have good points but nobody gives them a second thought as anything but douche-bag verbal diarrhea because of the way you present them. If you don't feel like being diplomatic, that's fine, but don't expect anyone in this world to take you seriously until you alter the way you present your facts. You seem to be on track to continue the tradition of well spoken, intelligent, douche bag doctors who can't communicate with patients (ie...the ones who gets sued).

Note that nothing in the above said that you're wrong; it's just the way you present it, man. I hope, for your own good, that you're different in person.

 

[NonTraditional3]

How does OMM differ from Physical Therapy? It seems like the two are rooted with similar origins...

 

[deleted103644]

How does OMM differ from Physical Therapy? It seems like the two are rooted with similar origins...

OMM was originally supposed to cure ALL health issues, like pneumonia, syphilis, etc etc. AT Still was against using medications for treatments (hence the term osteopath, as opposed to homeopath or the inaccurate term allopath).

Physical therapists have made no such claims.

OMM shares more similarities with chiropractors than PTs.

 

[Vancomycin12]

OMM was originally supposed to cure ALL health issues, like pneumonia, syphilis, etc etc. AT Still was against using medications for treatments (hence the term osteopath, as opposed to homeopath or the inaccurate term allopath).

Physical therapists have made no such claims.

OMM shares more similarities with chiropractors than PTs.

I love how you, someone who has never studied OMM at all, chose to answer this question. This is completely untrue.

It is not 'supposed' to cure ALL health issues like the ones you mentioned. It was just an alternative approach to the barbaric/ridiculous claims at the times. I mean we are talking 19th century here guys. Yes, it is out-dated now -- but it does have a lot of overlap between PT and chiros. However, a lot of the techniques are unique to OMM. The main goal of OMM is to fix structure and function of the body so that it has an EASIER time healing. For example, if a person has pneumonia, you may direct a technique at their ribs/serratus musculature in order to 'loosen' the structure allowing for freer breathing--- which, in turn, will promote quicker healing. Nowadays, you would pair that technique with Abx. This is what makes DOs (specificall OMM docs) more up-to-date clinically.

Hope this helps

 

[mashmetoo]

No, I think the AOA is the problem and will not be part of the solution. If the ACGME cuts off residency spots, students will petition their schools to convert or simply stop applying.

lol.. I guess you are the type that would throw the baby out with the bath water huh?

I'm more concerned with the fact that you would actively screw over DO students who want ACGME residencies to have your petty ways lol..

Who the heck are you anyways? a MD student/resident/doc? Pre-med? DO in training? Random disgruntled person? Why are you so concerned with these politics? What do you get out of it? Do you benefit in any way when DOs can no longer apply for ACGME residencies? Would that would you happy?

 

[mashmetoo]

i love how you, someone who has never studied omm at all, chose to answer this question. This is completely untrue.

It is not 'supposed' to cure all health issues like the ones you mentioned. It was just an alternative approach to the barbaric/ridiculous claims at the times. I mean we are talking 19th century here guys. Yes, it is out-dated now -- but it does have a lot of overlap between pt and chiros. However, a lot of the techniques are unique to omm. The main goal of omm is to fix structure and function of the body so that it has an easier time healing. For example, if a person has pneumonia, you may direct a technique at their ribs/serratus musculature in order to 'loosen' the structure allowing for freer breathing--- which, in turn, will promote quicker healing. Nowadays, you would pair that technique with abx. This is what makes dos (specificall omm docs) more up-to-date clinically.

Hope this helps

+1

 

[deleted103644]

I love how you, someone who has never studied OMM at all, chose to answer this question. This is completely untrue.

It is not 'supposed' to cure ALL health issues like the ones you mentioned. It was just an alternative approach to the barbaric/ridiculous claims at the times. I mean we are talking 19th century here guys. Yes, it is out-dated now -- but it does have a lot of overlap between PT and chiros. However, a lot of the techniques are unique to OMM. The main goal of OMM is to fix structure and function of the body so that it has an EASIER time healing. For example, if a person has pneumonia, you may direct a technique at their ribs/serratus musculature in order to 'loosen' the structure allowing for freer breathing--- which, in turn, will promote quicker healing. Nowadays, you would pair that technique with Abx. This is what makes DOs (specificall OMM docs) more up-to-date clinically.

Hope this helps

I know no one sane would claim that now, but this is indeed what AT Still was claiming back when he founded osteopathy.

He believed that manipulation could heal all pathology, as all pathology was simply due to a misalignment of the body.

 

[deleted103644]

lol.. I guess you are the type that would throw the baby out with the bath water huh?

If the AOA is the baby, then yes. I'd probably skewer, cook, and eat it too.

I'm more concerned with the fact that you would actively screw over DO students who want ACGME residencies to have your petty ways lol..

If someone wants an ACGME residency, they should apply MD or petition their school to switch and stop teaching OMM.

Who the heck are you anyways? a MD student/resident/doc? Pre-med? DO in training? Random disgruntled person? Why are you so concerned with these politics? What do you get out of it? Do you benefit in any way when DOs can no longer apply for ACGME residencies? Would that would you happy?

I am as far above MDs as they are above you.

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

Just kidding.

 

[Vancomycin12]

I know no one sane would claim that now, but this is indeed what AT Still was claiming back when he founded osteopathy.

He believed that manipulation could heal all pathology, as all pathology was simply due to a misalignment of the body.

...in 1874. Times have changed QUITE A BIT since then. This is not even close to the way OMM docs practice today.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I know no one sane would claim that now, but this is indeed what AT Still was claiming back when he founded osteopathy.

He believed that manipulation could heal all pathology, as all pathology was simply due to a misalignment of the body.

Well he believed more that misalignment of the body caused the body to grow weaker and less capable to protect and repair itself. He believed that the body fundamentally is self repairing and that medicine should aid the body in it's self repair process. Nothing really more. Obviously you can take his claim of "I shook a child and cured whooping cough" and say that he's a nut, but otherwise I think he was on to something that fundamentally contributed to modern medicine's view of treatment.

 

[deleted103644]

...in 1874. Times have changed QUITE A BIT since then. This is not even close to the way OMM docs practice today.

Yes, but that is the origin of the entire principle. It has been watered down to avoid overt ridicule, but really the entire practice should be trashed.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Yes, but that is the origin of the entire principle. It has been watered down to avoid overt ridicule, but really the entire practice should be trashed.

Sure, practices like Cranial. But techniques that do function to reduce pain or actually have been shown to clinically work they should remain.

 

[cliquesh]

Yes, but that is the origin of the entire principle. It has been watered down to avoid overt ridicule, but really the entire practice should be trashed.

OMM's only indication is a thing called somatic dysfunction. It cannot be used to treat anything else. I think you are assuming DOs are trying to cure cancer and pneumonia with OMM.

 

[mashmetoo]

I am as far above MDs as they are above you.

Just kidding.

Lol, does the fact that there are DOs making 500 dollars an hour in Hollywood make you angry?

Even a maggot will think itself flying high when it morphs into a fly, while hovering over a piece of dog **** laying on the side road of a Mexican ghetto. lol...

Just Kidding

 

[deleted103644]

OMM's only indication is a thing called somatic dysfunction. It cannot be used to treat anything else. I think you are assuming DOs are trying to cure cancer and pneumonia with OMM.

AT Still did believe that he could cure pneumonia with OMM, and until DOs caved in and started prescribing medications, they did too.

As for "somatic dysfunction":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqImkDgDwHU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqImkDgDwHU

 

[Vancomycin12]

Yes, but that is the origin of the entire principle. It has been watered down to avoid overt ridicule, but really the entire practice should be trashed.

The entire practice should be trashed? How come? I think there is about 50% that is very helpful to the patient population. It's a different way of treating structural/functional problems after usual modern techniques (drugs, surgery, etc.) fail. What does an MD do when those conventions fail? They have nothing more to do. OMM docs can provide ANOTHER/ALTERNATIVE approach to healing a patient after other such things have failed. Often times, these docs are more willing to help and want to get to the root of the problem. Most of the ones I have met will not give up until a solution has reached. I think all of us can give examples of this.

For instance: I was an all-american collegiate athlete and have been in great shape my entire life. I developed back problems after college. Went to a renowned ortho-surgeon in which he took a standard 3-view x-ray of my low back. He said to me "Well, I don't see anything wrong so take some aleve q 8hrs and see if that helps. Also, maybe try to do some crunches to strengthen your abs." That's the only 'solution' he offered me. In situations like this, why wouldnt you try an alternative approach? I didnt know about DOs back then, but I wish I had. I had back pain for 2 yrs straight prior to starting school. I finally saw my OMM professor regarding my pain and he took over an hour examining me (as he does all of his pts). He noticed a few things out of alignment and gave me a temporary crack. He then gave me a specific set of exercises to do (much like a PT would give u) that I followed religiously. after a few weeks, no back pain and it hasnt come back.

Just a brief little personal anecdote of my experience..

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

AT Still did believe that he could cure pneumonia with OMM, and until DOs caved in and started prescribing medications, they did too.

As for "somatic dysfunction":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqImkDgDwHU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqImkDgDwHU

Well he believed that he could treat a person with OMM and in term their body would be more able to fight off the infection by let's say making lungs less strained or something. I mean in theory it sounds possible.

 

[deleted103644]

Lol, does the fact that there are DOs making 500 dollars an hour in Hollywood make you angry?

Even a maggot will think itself flying high when it morphs into a fly, and hovering over a piece of dog **** laying on the side road of a Mexican ghetto. lol...

Just Kidding

Really not sure what you're trying to say here.

I have nothing against DOs.

I have issues with OMM and osteopathy in general and think the degree should be abolished.

 

[Vancomycin12]

AT Still did believe that he could cure pneumonia with OMM, and until DOs caved in and started prescribing medications, they did too.

As for "somatic dysfunction":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqImkDgDwHU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqImkDgDwHU

and MDs used to think blood-letting got rid of the disease. The point is, who cares. That was 2 centuries ago...

 

[mashmetoo]

Really not sure what you're trying to say here.

I have nothing against DOs.

I have issues with OMM and osteopathy in general and think the degree should be abolished.

So.. you have nothing against DOs, but you think the DO degree should be abolished... But you have nothing against DOs...

 

[deleted103644]

So.. you have nothing against DOs, but you think the DO degree should be abolished... But you have nothing against DOs...

I have nothing against the physicians (except those advocating OMM). I have something against the degree.

I would be fine with converting existing DO schools to MD and getting rid of OMM.

 

[Hemorrage]

So.. you have nothing against DOs, but you think the DO degree should be abolished... But you have nothing against DOs...

Many people have nothing against the DO degree since its equivalent to the MD in every aspect, much like DMD DDS, however most modern osteopathic students could care less about OMM, 99% including myself (when I appy) are applying to DO school to be given the opportunity to become a modern physician, not a 20th century musculoskeletal therapist

 

[MedicineMike]

Many people have nothing against the DO degree since its equivalent to the MD in every aspect, much like DMD DDS, however most modern osteopathic students could care less about OMM, 99% including myself (when I appy) are applying to DO school to be given the opportunity to become a modern physician, not a 20th century musculoskeletal therapist

I agree with this. As a DO student, I think OMM has its place but I dont think every DO should be forced to study it for 2 yrs.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I agree with this. As a DO student, I think OMM has its place but I dont think every DO should be forced to study it for 2 yrs.

Agreed. I'm interested in learning a little bit of OMM, but honestly I'm sure that when it comes to Cranial I'm going to be groaning heavily and complaining endlessly.

 

[deleted103644]

Agreed. I'm interested in learning a little bit of OMM, but honestly I'm sure that when it comes to Cranial I'm going to be groaning heavily and complaining endlessly.

You guys should really try to petition your schools to abolish OMM rather than suffer silently through it.

I know it's on your board exam too, but raise enough of a fuss and that might change too.

Are you guys required to take COMLEX, or can you do just USMLE?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

You guys should really try to petition your schools to abolish OMM rather than suffer silently through it.

I know it's on your board exam too, but raise enough of a fuss and that might change too.

Are you guys required to take COMLEX, or can you do just USMLE?

The biggest DO student already tried to petition cranial and other forms of outwardly false OMM to be removed from COMLEX and the curriculum and the AOA blocked it. DO's currently have to take the COMLEX.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Student group* I meant to say. But who knows maybe they can try again this year. I say we form an SDN style petition

 

[mashmetoo]

Many people have nothing against the DO degree since its equivalent to the MD in every aspect, much like DMD DDS, however most modern osteopathic students could care less about OMM, 99% including myself (when I appy) are applying to DO school to be given the opportunity to become a modern physician, not a 20th century musculoskeletal therapist

I agree with this. As a DO student, I think OMM has its place but I dont think every DO should be forced to study it for 2 yrs.

This is what I don't understand.

You applied to go on vacation on an Arctic cruise with Cardinal (let this be DO/AOA), and you applied for a vacation on a Caribbean cruise with royal caribbean (let this be on MD/ACGME). You got the Arctic cruise, but on this boat, you complain every step of the way and cuss and moan about how the Arctic cruise should be "more like the Caribbean" cruise, and how it's ok to view the ice bergs once in a while, but not CONSTANTLY throughout the cruise... You wanted to see the sun shine of the Caribbean, but all you got was some majestic icebergs... Well.. let me ask, who's problem is that? Cardinal cruises sure as heck is not going to change their cruising lane just because a few disgruntled vacationers thought that it wasn't similar to their competitor Royal caribbean. Well obviously it's not going to be the same as the environments are totally different.

This raises the question, instead of complaining about how an Arctic cruise isn't at all similar to a Caribbean cruise, why didn't you just pay and get on the Caribbean cruise in the first place? This way, you are where you want to be, and everyone's happy.

 

[MedicineMike]

You guys should really try to petition your schools to abolish OMM rather than suffer silently through it.

I know it's on your board exam too, but raise enough of a fuss and that might change too.

Are you guys required to take COMLEX, or can you do just USMLE?

Required to take COMLEX, but I will do both. The specialty I plan on doing will most likely be acgme residency.

I wish we could raise enough fuss, but those old guys at the AOA refuse anything.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

This is what I don't understand.

You applied to go on vacation on an Arctic cruise with Cardinal (let this be DO/AOA), and you applied for a vacation on a Caribbean cruise with royal caribbean (let this be on MD/ACGME). You got the Arctic cruise, but on this boat, you complain every step of the way and cuss and moan about how the Arctic cruise should be "more like the Caribbean" cruise, and how it's ok to view the ice bergs once in a while, but not CONSTANTLY throughout the cruise... Well.. let me ask, who's problem is that? Cardinal cruises sure as heck is not going to change their cruising lane just because a few disgruntled vacationers thought that it wasn't similar to their competitor Royal caribbean. Well obviously it's not going to be the same as the environments are totally different.

This raises the question, instead of complaining about how an Arctic cruise isn't at all similar to a Caribbean cruise, why didn't you just pay and get on the Caribbean cruise in the first place? This way, you are where you want to be, and everyone's happy.

Because the Arctic cruise was easier to get on and it is better to be on a cruise than on dry land with nothing. Obviously a bad example though, all cruises are the worst thing ever. Actually, never mind this is a great example of medical schools.

 

[deleted103644]

Student group* I meant to say. But who knows maybe they can try again this year. I say we form an SDN style petition

Haha, I was trying to picture the biggest DO student.

 

[mashmetoo]

Because the Arctic cruise was easier to get on and it is better to be on a cruise than on dry land with nothing. Obviously a bad example though, all cruises are the worst thing ever. Actually, never mind this is a great example of medical schools.

Ok ok, fair enough, your budget was only 1000 dollars, and Cardinal Arctic cruises had a sale that day so you bought the ticket. Alas, Caribbean cruises asked for 1250 dollars, and you just couldn't afford it. That's fine too.

There was also a a discounted Caribbean cruise run by a shaddy company based in some 3rd world country that only asked for 600 dollars, but you wanted the quality of a of at least a 1000 dollar ticket.. I get it.

So basically, you paid and got what you asked for. Why the long face, and "regret" of not having an extra 250 dollars and going on that Royal Caribbean cruise? It is what it is, and I think it's unfair to blame the Arctic cruise for selling you a product you dislike - you had the option of not paying for it, and going on that cruise. And as you say, being on a cruise is better than being on dry land

You could have saved an extra 250 dollars and went with royal caribbean, or you could have gone with the 600 dollar shaddy company that also offered the Caribbean cruise, but no, you didn't choose any of those options... So basically, you got yourself into this situation, and Cardinal arctic cruises is not to blame.

Furthermore, believe it or not, there actually are a significant chunk of people who prefer the majestic arctic over the sunshine of the Caribbean sea.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Haha, I was trying to picture the biggest DO student.

Heh this made me giggle lol

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Ok ok, fair enough, your budget was only 1000 dollars, and Cardinal Arctic cruises had a sale that day so you bought the ticket. Alas, Caribbean cruises asked for 1250 dollars, and you just couldn't afford it. That's fine too.

There was also a a discounted Caribbean cruise run by a shaddy company based in some 3rd world country that only asked for 600 dollars, but you wanted the quality of a of at least a 1000 dollar ticket.. I get it.

So basically, you paid and got what you asked for. Why the long face, and "regret" of not having an extra 250 dollars and going on that Royal Caribbean cruise? It is what it is, and I think it's unfair to blame the Arctic cruise for selling you a product you dislike - you had the option of not paying for it, and going on that cruise. And as you say, being on a cruise is better than being on dry land

You could have saved an extra 250 dollars and went with royal caribbean, or you could have gone with the 600 dollar shaddy company that also offered the Caribbean cruise, but no, you didn't want any of them... So basically, you got yourself into this situation, and Cardinal arctic cruises is not to blame.

Furthermore, believe it or not, there actually are a significant chunk of people who prefer the majestic arctic over the sunshine of the Caribbean sea.

Well I think it's more like the Arctic cruise serves chicken fried spotted dick once a week and you need to eat something to avoid dying so you eat it for that one day and you await the return to reasonable food that is served every other day.

 

[Wolverines83]

Ok ok, fair enough, your budget was only 1000 dollars, and Cardinal Arctic cruises had a sale that day so you bought the ticket. Alas, Caribbean cruises asked for 1250 dollars, and you just couldn't afford it. That's fine too.

There was also a a discounted Caribbean cruise run by a shaddy company based in some 3rd world country that only asked for 600 dollars, but you wanted the quality of a of at least a 1000 dollar ticket.. I get it.

So basically, you paid and got what you asked for. Why the long face, and "regret" of not having an extra 250 dollars and going on that Royal Caribbean cruise? It is what it is, and I think it's unfair to blame the Arctic cruise for selling you a product you dislike - you had the option of not paying for it, and going on that cruise. And as you say, being on a cruise is better than being on dry land

You could have saved an extra 250 dollars and went with royal caribbean, or you could have gone with the 600 dollar shaddy company that also offered the Caribbean cruise, but no, you didn't want any of them... So basically, you got yourself into this situation, and Cardinal arctic cruises is not to blame.

lol....what?!

I think a lot of people are misinformed about OMM and DO school in general. They imagine DO as four years of OMM. Then they seem to equate omm with cranial. Using that logic I can see where people could get a seriously distorted view.

Nobody argues that some of the techniques are stuck in the past and are insulting but to say that cranial in and of itself is justification to get rid of everything else is *****ic. I hate the American tax system...so let's abolish the country! No, let's fix the tax system and keep what works.

Bottom line: certain modalities work and work very well to relieve msk pain. I don't give a rat's ass if someone doesn't "believe" it. But that's where the treatment should end and, in fact, is where it does end for the vast majority of the treatments we're taught. Most of it is "it relieves this pain...it loosens a tight muscle..." I have no issue with that. Outside of situations where it is contraindicated, there are really no side effects from stretching a muscle.

Now if you want to shake a baby to cure whooping cough...well...shake it hard enough and the baby will probably stop crying but it's not because the cough is gone......

 

[Wolverines83]

Well I think it's more like the Arctic cruise serves chicken fried spotted dick once a week and you need to eat something to avoid dying so you eat it for that one day and you await the return to reasonable food that is served every other day.

f*ck that...eat extra on the days with good food and rely on your fat stores for the others

 

[TriagePreMed]

Yes, but Darwin contributed to scientific knowledge. AT Still did not contribute anything worthwhile.

If you are treating MD and DO as equal under the law, then it affects both if schools are being created that don't provide proper training. All of the arguments you guys use against the Caribbean MD schools work equally well against some of the new DO programs.

No, I think the AOA is the problem and will not be part of the solution. If the ACGME cuts off residency spots, students will petition their schools to convert or simply stop applying.

Now that is just being offensive. I don't think you'll win many to your cause by doing that. AT Still had great philosophy and not all Osteopathic Manipulate treatments are hogwash.

Because the school is private, you can't say they don't provide a proper education. We have people with BA's from Harvard and from University of Phoenix, so no, it's not up to you to decide. As long as the school is accredited, that's it. I'm also not delusional enough to think that just the way the LCME does it qualifies for proper training.

Good luck with getting the ACGME to do that. It will never happen. The US government will not allow to create a healthcare debacle over some letters. And in the imaginary case it does, the AOA/COCA will suffer, but I doubt they'll give in.

 

[HalfListic]

now that is just being offensive. I don't think you'll win many to your cause by doing that. At still had great philosophy and not all osteopathic manipulate treatments are hogwash.

Because the school is private, you can't say they don't provide a proper education. We have people with ba's from harvard and from university of phoenix, so no, it's not up to you to decide. As long as the school is accredited, that's it. I'm also not delusional enough to think that just the way the lcme does it qualifies for proper training.

Good luck with getting the acgme to do that. It will never happen. The us government will not allow to create a healthcare debacle over some letters. And in the imaginary case it does, the aoa/coca will suffer, but i doubt they'll give in.

+1

 

[MedPR]

You realize when you write like this you just come across as a teenaged know-it-all, right? I mean, I actually agree with you on so many points, but I have to cut through your d-bag explanations and johnny-over-Dramatizations what the DO degree and education is.

While my beliefs are not exactly equivalent to johnnydrama's I do feel that many here are wrongly attacking his post(s). Someone asked him for his truthful opinion, and he gave it. He is free to believe what he wants about DO and OMM just as the rest of us are.

Why is this of such relevance for many?

+1

 

[TXKnight]

Really not sure what you're trying to say here.

I have issues with OMM and osteopathy in general and think the degree should be abolished.

I think you are a chiropractor in disguise

You won't even say whether you are a high schooler, premed, allopathic student or what...

Now if you dislike osteopathic medicine so much WTF are you doing trolling on the pre-osteopathic forums?

that you present your arguments more-less eloquently does not diminish the fact that they neither contribute positively to the debate nor the fact that thoughts born out of prejudice are flawed.

 

[HalfListic]

While my beliefs are not exactly equivalent to johnnydrama's I do feel that many here are wrongly attacking his post(s). Someone asked him for his truthful opinion, and he gave it. He is free to believe what he wants about DO and OMM just as the rest of us are.



+1

I think Johnny understands why he's being called out every once in a while. Most of what he says is true, but then he usually will go overboard and say something extreme, or even offensive. I have told him before that in person, I bet we would agree on most things...but for some reason he think that the anonymity if the Internet is a green light for inflammatory comments or disrespectful jibs. Also, its just curious that he prowls the pre-DO threads, when I'm not even sure he's a med student of any kind. He's surely not DO.

Everyone is free to their opinion, but as we grow into adulthood and take on professional roles as we are all striving to do, we have a responsibility to respect one another and learn how to disagree in a mature way. If you want to change something, you can't insult it away.




As for why this is relevant to people, have you read the article that was posted three times in this thread? It has I think 20 points why it's relevant, and some of them may pertain to you. Maybe not, but anyone who is still confused by this thread, it would be good to read that first and then come back with specific disputes. I know no everyone will care, but there are some pretty good reasons to at least consider the possibility that this matter has some significant implications for our future.

Edit: here it is again for convenience sake. http://eyedrd.org/2010/12/resolution-calling-for-degree.html

 

[deleted103644]

For those who are curious, I am a resident.

As to why I post on this forum - I've been using the iPhone app and you guys are particularly active on SDN. So if I am browsing "unread" posts, you're over-represented. Occasionally I fall for the bait.

I am most certainly not a chiropractor - I have the exact same objections to them as I do to OMM and osteopathy in general.

If you want me to stop posting here, stop posting in this thread and it will stop going to the top of my "participated" list. If it's there and someone is saying something ridiculous, it's hard not to respond.

 

[NonTraditional3]

For those who are curious, I am a resident.

PGY-1, Troll-B/GYN.

 

[HalfListic]

For those who are curious, I am a resident.

If you want me to stop posting here, stop posting in this thread and it will stop going to the top of my "participated" list.

Doubtful.

Also, no that's not how it works. If you want anyone to take you seriously, learn how to debate your views with a little more grace. Otherwise, practice self control...just because you see something at the top of your list doesn't mean you have to click it.


*edited to say this less harshly.