DO; to remain separate or merge with MD?

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I'm trying to be objective too, I mean, I thought most DO schools had similar beginnings...I don't think any new school is above average. right? (and like it was pointed out, they even had a couple Ortho surgeons and an ENT, so not everyone shuns RVU it seems).

But yes I'll read the rest of the thread. :thumb up:

edit: I read it and still think the same. This was a good start to what could become one of the better DO schools. Its true that there will be drama over the for profit business, but the same could be said about DO students 10 years ago or less.


No. RVU is trash and it's match was probably worse than SGU's. And their students were stat wise higher than the average so they should have done better, but they didn't.


This is very true and has been my experience as well. Even as a small group of undergrads, I was able to help organized and gain gov't funding for a statewide Autism program in my state. I think a lot of SDNers are a bit pessimistic or inexperienced about what they actually can achieve, which is a bit sad.

So, I am glad you have had similar experiences and know the power of a group of like minded professionals. Thats really how things get done! There is PLENTY of money, everywhere, even when we are "in debt"

Guess how much one residency position costs? 100k min a position.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[psychgirrrl]

yes, a dude-thanks for guessing correctly and its good to have another optimist on SDN (which seems to be heavy of the "realist" side)

Woking in Autism has a lot of ups and downs, so nice work sticking it out. Ive loved it too and hope to continue in the field either professionally or at least through volunteer depending on where my medical degree takes me.

Mood swings and ups and downs is just a normal part of the day of an autism therapist's life. You learn to deal with it and find tranquility in all the madness surrounding you.

I try to keep it real because I took way too many classes about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimism_bias

and how it can be harmful to people.

 

[HalfListic]

Mood swings and ups and downs is just a normal part of the day of an autism therapist's life. You learn to deal with it and find tranquility in all the madness surrounding you.

I try to keep it real because I took way too many classes about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimism_bias

and how it can be harmful to people.

Just be careful..
.
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/2c8c4b3b58/chappelle-show-when-keeping-it-real-goes-wrong-1



edit: if anyone watches this, only watch the first part of this video as its classiness deteriorates quickly

 

[HalfListic]

.

 

[HalfListic]

I bet a lot of people have seen this, but I'll post it here anyway. The resolution that was written by DO students and DOs for changing to MD,DO: http://eyedrd.org/2010/12/resolution-calling-for-degree.html

Who else would support a switch to MD, DO (Doctor of Medicine, Diplomate of Osteopathy)?

As others have stated, the AOA will not allow this to happen. But instead of the AOA being put through the guillotine, how about changing it to the American Academy/Association of Osteopathic Diplomats?

I still think this is an interesting idea. It almost happened at TCOM, so I don't see why (though harshly contested, as were DOs in history) this couldn't happen if enough people wanted it to.

 

[cliquesh]

What's the point? I think the degree title is more of a premed issue

 

[HalfListic]

What's the point? I think the degree title is more of a premed issue

Here's one of many points (I agree that it won't change the way we practice...but its not an accurate title. This sort of bugs me, maybe Im too OCD, but the title should reflect what it is. If it doesn't matter, why not call ourselves AD, Doctors of Awesome) It kind of matters

But heres one real point of contention, copied from A Brief Guide to OME:

Both American osteopathic physicians and European osteopaths call themselves DOs. Amer- ican practitioners are Doctors of Osteopathic Medi- cine, and European practitioners have a Diploma of Osteopathy. There is, thus, some confusion regarding the difference between U.S osteopathic physicians and osteopaths trained in other countries. Osteo- paths (the term used for foreign-trained practitioners who practice osteopathic manipulation) are not phy- sicians. Their training focuses on the musculoskeletal system and they are not licensed to prescribe medi- cations or perform surgeries. They are trained pri- marily in the practice of osteopathic manipulative techniques. Conversely, U.S.-trained osteopathic phy- sicians are fully licensed to practice the entire scope of modern medicine. Although you may hear U.S.- trained osteopathic physicians being referred to as osteopaths, most prefer the term "osteopathic physi- cian" practicing osteopathic medicine in order to dis- tinguish themselves from foreign-trained osteopaths practicing osteopathy.1
This confusion has resulted in some reluctance in countries abroad to accept DOs as fully licensed phy- sicians. Nevertheless, U.S.-trained DOs currently hold full medical practice rights in over 45 countries, and restricted rights in a few others.

TLDR: DO is used for different things around the world and this causes both confusion and perhaps prevents/hinders the DOs ability to practice medicine abroad as easily.

 

[UrshumMurshum]

Here's one of many points (I agree that it won't change the way we practice...but its not an accurate title. This sort of bugs me, maybe Im too OCD, but the title should reflect what it is. If it doesn't matter, why not call ourselves AD, Doctors of Awesome) It kind of matters

But heres one real point of contention, copied from A Brief Guide to OME:

Both American osteopathic physicians and European osteopaths call themselves DOs. Amer- ican practitioners are Doctors of Osteopathic Medi- cine, and European practitioners have a Diploma of Osteopathy. There is, thus, some confusion regarding the difference between U.S osteopathic physicians and osteopaths trained in other countries. Osteo- paths (the term used for foreign-trained practitioners who practice osteopathic manipulation) are not phy- sicians. Their training focuses on the musculoskeletal system and they are not licensed to prescribe medi- cations or perform surgeries. They are trained pri- marily in the practice of osteopathic manipulative techniques. Conversely, U.S.-trained osteopathic phy- sicians are fully licensed to practice the entire scope of modern medicine. Although you may hear U.S.- trained osteopathic physicians being referred to as osteopaths, most prefer the term “osteopathic physi- cian” practicing osteopathic medicine in order to dis- tinguish themselves from foreign-trained osteopaths practicing osteopathy.1
This confusion has resulted in some reluctance in countries abroad to accept DOs as fully licensed phy- sicians. Nevertheless, U.S.-trained DOs currently hold full medical practice rights in over 45 countries, and restricted rights in a few others.

TLDR: DO is used for different things around the world and this causes both confusion and perhaps prevents/hinders the DOs ability to practice medicine abroad as easily.

Do you plan on practicing medicine abroad..ever?

 

[HalfListic]

Do you plan on practicing medicine abroad..ever?

I'd love to take trips to foreign places and give medical care. (many docs do this) There are ways for DOs to do this, it's just more difficult than needed. Also, it's besides the point..I think the point is, a DO is a full medical doctor like an MD. Why limit them in any way?

 

[cliquesh]

Here's one of many points (I agree that it won't change the way we practice...but its not an accurate title. This sort of bugs me, maybe Im too OCD, but the title should reflect what it is. If it doesn't matter, why not call ourselves AD, Doctors of Awesome) It kind of matters

But heres one real point of contention, copied from A Brief Guide to OME:

Both American osteopathic physicians and European osteopaths call themselves DOs. Amer- ican practitioners are Doctors of Osteopathic Medi- cine, and European practitioners have a Diploma of Osteopathy. There is, thus, some confusion regarding the difference between U.S osteopathic physicians and osteopaths trained in other countries. Osteo- paths (the term used for foreign-trained practitioners who practice osteopathic manipulation) are not phy- sicians. Their training focuses on the musculoskeletal system and they are not licensed to prescribe medi- cations or perform surgeries. They are trained pri- marily in the practice of osteopathic manipulative techniques. Conversely, U.S.-trained osteopathic phy- sicians are fully licensed to practice the entire scope of modern medicine. Although you may hear U.S.- trained osteopathic physicians being referred to as osteopaths, most prefer the term “osteopathic physi- cian” practicing osteopathic medicine in order to dis- tinguish themselves from foreign-trained osteopaths practicing osteopathy.1
This confusion has resulted in some reluctance in countries abroad to accept DOs as fully licensed phy- sicians. Nevertheless, U.S.-trained DOs currently hold full medical practice rights in over 45 countries, and restricted rights in a few others.

TLDR: DO is used for different things around the world and this causes both confusion and perhaps prevents/hinders the DOs ability to practice medicine abroad as easily.

That is legitimate, I guess. It is pretty insignificant, though.

 

[cliquesh]

I'd love to take trips to foreign places and give medical care. (many docs do this) There are ways for DOs to do this, it's just more difficult than needed. Also, it's besides the point..I think the point is, a DO is a full medical doctor like an MD. Why limit them in any way?

If you do something like doctors with outboarders then you can practice in any country as long as you are with the organization. It only matters if you want to move to that country.

 

[deleted103644]

His name is Johnny Drama after all, I am just glad to have the information available to me, I think I am intelligent enough to make conclusions by looking at what's out there.

I thought RVU only started last year and that they didn't have a graduating class yet. Is this true? If so, which stats have been produced by them and where can I see them?

If you have the opportunity to go MD over DO without going too much deeper into debt, you should do it. If you have the opportunity to go to a non-profit DO school over a for-profit DO school, you should do it.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

If you have the opportunity to go MD over DO without going too much deeper into debt, you should do it. If you have the opportunity to go to a non-profit DO school over a for-profit DO school, you should do it.

I agree.

 

[Dharma]

This is a bit off-topic and I'm sure many have heard this before, but in reply to those repeating the notions of a primary care shortage, I just want to add that this shortage mostly exists in rural America. You will not find many shortages in and around the more desirable urban/suburban locations, i.e. where most (including myself) will probably want to train and live. Even with an aging population, desirable cities and their suburbs have not and will not have problems with physician numbers, not to mention, you can also guarantee a rise in the number of midlevels (who also want to live and work in these areas) handling the more routine aspects of primary care. I do find the consistent reference to a shortage to be a bit misleading when it is portrayed as a coast-to-coast problem.

The real shortage is in patches scattered throughout the States and those patches are the places the average medical school grad wants nothing to do with. (No, you folks who are actually looking forward to your rural doctoring days are not average. Respect though). An increase in physician numbers will not fill these gaps without strong incentives to do so, while possibly completely saturating the markets of more desirable locations. Yeah, I know that the NHSC has a limited number of scholarships and a loan forgiveness programs, but they have their fair share of problems and cost (unwilling) tax-payers the buckaroos in the process. Without a means of attracting larger numbers of physicians to those areas of shortage, shortages will continue.

Rapidly opening schools with lax accreditation will not solve the problem of this rural primary care physician shortage, nor should the shortage be used as an excuse to bring the Caribbean schools ashore as new DO institutions. (Read Dr.Mychaskiw's letter regarding proposed school in Rhode Island if you haven't already: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=12663855#post12663855) Regardless, there is simply not enough GME funding nor will there likely be any significant changes in upcoming years. More schools is not the answer.

Anyhow, excuse my rant... I just hope when people are referring to a primary care physician shortage, they realize that it varies geographically (and demographically in really bad areas of some cities) but does not affect many places in this country.

Oh and to those arguing about practicing abroad: It's very difficult to get licensed abroad regardless of degree; MD or DO, you will have plenty of obstacles to traverse and barriers to clear before you set up shop in most foreign countries. As someone mentioned earlier, there is always Doctors Without Borders for those who need to fulfill there taste of adventure, and both MD's and DO's are welcomed to join. That said, foreign practice rights should play little (if any) role in one's decision regarding MD or DO, and its use in these discussions is somewhat asinine IMO.

What was the thread topic again?...?....

 

[Dharma]

If you have the opportunity to go MD over DO without going too much deeper into debt, you should do it. If you have the opportunity to go to a non-profit DO school over a for-profit DO school, you should do it.

In general, I have to agree as well.

 

[dntke1518]

If you have the opportunity to go MD over DO without going too much deeper into debt, you should do it. If you have the opportunity to go to a non-profit DO school over a for-profit DO school, you should do it.

+1 this.

 

[Ost3oclast]

If you have the opportunity to go MD over DO without going too much deeper into debt, you should do it. If you have the opportunity to go to a non-profit DO school over a for-profit DO school, you should do it.

Have to agree as well.

I am also one of those weird pre-meds that actually wants to work rural when I graduate. I cant stand larger cities. Plus my home state has really nice loan reimbursement programs if I work rural.

 

[aspDO]

If you have the opportunity to go MD over DO without going too much deeper into debt, you should do it. If you have the opportunity to go to a non-profit DO school over a for-profit DO school, you should do it.

Bold part is enough for a decision, even no need to consider the debt, at all.

 

[deleted103644]

Bold part is enough for a decision, even no need to consider the debt, at all.

I was being generous, since people have painted me as rabidly anti-DO.

 

[HalfListic]

If you have the opportunity to go MD over DO without going too much deeper into debt, you should do it. If you have the opportunity to go to a non-profit DO school over a for-profit DO school, you should do it.

I also agree, in general. Though I think of you know you are going primary care, then it's not really an issue.

 

[deleted103644]

I also agree, in general. Though I think of you know you are going primary care, then it's not really an issue.

Even for primary care, you do yourself no favors going DO.

 

[donkeykong1]

Even for primary care, you do yourself no favors going DO.

i would stay away from some of the newer MD schools, and those that were recently put on probation.

if you're set on primary care MSUCOM is constantly in the top 10 of all med school programs (md/do)

 

[deleted103644]

i would stay away from some of the newer MD schools, and those that were recently put on probation.

if you're set on primary care MSUCOM is constantly in the top 10 of all med school programs (md/do)

Have any MD programs in the continental US been placed on probation?

You're right, I would probably avoid the Puerto Rico schools since they all seem to be in trouble.

The new MD programs actually include some that look pretty strong, eg Hofstra-NSLIJ.

They haven't graduated a class yet (I think), but I would expect them to do as well as the SUNY's and NYMC pretty easily.

 

[cliquesh]

Have any MD programs in the continental US been placed on probation?

You're right, I would probably avoid the Puerto Rico schools since they all seem to be in trouble.

The new MD programs actually include some that look pretty strong, eg Hofstra-NSLIJ.

They haven't graduated a class yet (I think), but I would expect them to do as well as the SUNY's and NYMC pretty easily.

Pretty sure George Washington was recently(within the last 5 years) and some school in Texas within the last year. I'm sure there are others.

 

[donkeykong1]

Pretty sure George Washington was recently(within the last 5 years) and some school in Texas within the last year. I'm sure there are others.

also suny upstate, tcmc, and i think one of the historically african-american med schools.

 

[donkeykong1]

Have any MD programs in the continental US been placed on probation?

You're right, I would probably avoid the Puerto Rico schools since they all seem to be in trouble.

The new MD programs actually include some that look pretty strong, eg Hofstra-NSLIJ.

They haven't graduated a class yet (I think), but I would expect them to do as well as the SUNY's and NYMC pretty easily.

hofstra's an exceptional med school. its really in a unique situation for a new school. it already has an MD/Phd program as well as the largest hospital system on long island. the others on the other hand have admissions standards at or a bit below that of umdnj-som, ccom, okla.. and some other DO schools

 

[NonTraditional3]

hofstra's an exceptional med school. its really in a uique situation for a new school. it already has an MD/Phd program as well as the largest hospital system on long island. the others on the other hand have admissions standards at or a bit below that of umdnj-som, ccom, okla.. and some other DO schools

Nothing can be said about the strength or weaknesses of Hofstra until their first class graduates; let's wait for 2014 to roll around so we can see where these students match, barring the North Shore LIJ system hospitals, barring Einstein-Jacobi, and Barring NYU-Langone, as these are academic affiliates of the NSLIJ system.

 

[donkeykong1]

Nothing can be said about the strength or weaknesses of Hofstra until their first class graduates; let's wait for 2014 to roll around so we can see where these students match, barring the North Shore LIJ system hospitals, barring Einstein-Jacobi, and Barring NYU-Langone, as these are academic affiliates of the NSLIJ system.

you do realize that you just mentioned off some of the biggest academic powerhouse hospitals in NY state right? the fact that these institutions are academic affiliates of hostra puts them in a unique place. no doubt their students will match comfortably at those sites

 

[deleted103644]

Nothing can be said about the strength or weaknesses of Hofstra until their first class graduates; let's wait for 2014 to roll around so we can see where these students match, barring the North Shore LIJ system hospitals, barring Einstein-Jacobi, and Barring NYU-Langone, as these are academic affiliates of the NSLIJ system.

Considering that they are stealing top staff from the academic hospital systems and are associated with the most profitable hospital system in NY, I think it's safe to say they will do well.

Probably better than NYMC will be my bet, especially now that they've been taken over by Touro.

 

[NonTraditional3]

you do realize that you just mentioned off some of the biggest academic powerhouse hospitals in NY state right? the fact that these institutions are academic affiliates of hostra puts them in a unique place. no doubt their students will match comfortably at those sites

That's precisely why I said barring these hospitals. Let's see what kind of hospitals students match to where they don't have a homefield advantage.

 

[NonTraditional3]

Considering that they are stealing top staff from the academic hospital systems and are associated with the most profitable hospital system in NY, I think it's safe to say they will do well.

Probably better than NYMC will be my bet, especially now that they've been taken over by Touro.

You'd be surprised about NYMC. Several notable MD-PhD's and scientists moved out of Manhattan and up to NYMC after the Touro buyout - I think the money Touro is pouring into NYMC is going to enable the college to start some new clinical initiatives and research programs that may very well help NYMC move up in the world.

If not, I'm ****ed. I start a master's there in 3 months.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Anyone else completely sick of this "turn DOs into MDs" thing? It's simply not going to happen, and honestly, it's not a big deal if it doesn't. DOs have been doing well for themselves the past a hundred something years.

 

[deleted103644]

You'd be surprised about NYMC. Several notable MD-PhD's and scientists moved out of Manhattan and up to NYMC after the Touro buyout - I think the money Touro is pouring into NYMC is going to enable the college to start some new clinical initiatives and research programs that may very well help NYMC move up in the world.

If not, I'm ****ed. I start a master's there in 3 months.

Everyone I knew at NYMC was really mad at the Touro buyout. I don't know enough about Touro, but I think they have a bit of a sketchy history with things like online degrees?

NYMC is a decent enough place, but it's completely overshadowed by the big 5 academic institutions. Like many NY hospitals, the main NYMC hospital operates at a huge loss, so I'm not sure how much Touro money can help.

 

[deleted103644]

Anyone else completely sick of this "turn DOs into MDs" thing? It's simply not going to happen, and honestly, it's not a big deal if it doesn't. DOs have been doing well for themselves the past a hundred something years.

Not really. They were seriously looney tunes 100 years ago.

If the ACGME shuts off residencies to DO schools, it could easily shutdown half of them unilaterally.

 

[NonTraditional3]

Everyone I knew at NYMC was really mad at the Touro buyout. I don't know enough about Touro, but I think they have a bit of a sketchy history with things like online degrees?

NYMC is a decent enough place, but it's completely overshadowed by the big 5 academic institutions. Like many NY hospitals, the main NYMC hospital operates at a huge loss, so I'm not sure how much Touro money can help.

Yeah, I'm not sure; the majority of medical students I know at NYMC don't seem to bothered. The biggest complaint I have heard was that the cafeteria has some limitations on the food it can offer now, as Touro has a Jewish affiliation, and that student-organizations have less flexibility in their budgets because they can only serve kosher food at events, which is markedly expensive. The point here is, if their biggest contention is about food, the situation could be much worse than it actually is.

 

[Sileni]

Everyone I knew at NYMC was really mad at the Touro buyout. I don't know enough about Touro, but I think they have a bit of a sketchy history with things like online degrees?

NYMC is a decent enough place, but it's completely overshadowed by the big 5 academic institutions. Like many NY hospitals, the main NYMC hospital operates at a huge loss, so I'm not sure how much Touro money can help.

Johnnydrama, I have an idea. Why don't you just come out and say exactly what you feel about DOs and DO schools, don't hold back - just be blunt and to the point. Because frankly, all of these people guessing about what your views about DOs are is derailing the thread. So just lay it all out here.

Just write everything about DOs/DO Schools/DO Students that comes to your mind.

 

[NonTraditional3]

D.O. = Divine Order.

 

[deleted103644]

Johnnydrama, I have an idea. Why don't you just come out and say exactly what you feel about DOs and DO schools, don't hold back - just be blunt and to the point. Because frankly, all of these people guessing about what your views about DOs are is derailing the thread. So just lay it all out here.

Just write everything about DOs/DO Schools/DO Students that comes to your mind.

I think that DO schools are lower tier MD programs with added lip service to a 19th century quack.

They are a valid option for students who can't get into a decent MD program, but the DO degree should really cease to exist and they should be converted to MD programs.

I have nothing against DO students, with a possible exception for those who are OMM defenders.

OMM is pseudoscience and deserves derision, just like "CAM".

 

[TriagePreMed]

Not really. They were seriously looney tunes 100 years ago.

If the ACGME shuts off residencies to DO schools, it could easily shutdown half of them unilaterally.

And MDs were looney tunes too 100 years ago. The point is that DOs could survive well.

Sure, the ACGME shutting off residencies to DOs would have a huge impact, but the profession wouldn't implode/end.

There's really no reason to care if someone has "MD" or "DO" after their name. The only reason there's stigma and problems is because people make it to have stigma and problems. If everyone just went on about their lives as doctors, it would all be a-okay.

 

[TriagePreMed]

I think that DO schools are lower tier MD programs with added lip service to a 19th century quack.

They are a valid option for students who can't get into a decent MD program, but the DO degree should really cease to exist and they should be converted to MD programs.

I have nothing against DO students, with a possible exception for those who are OMM defenders.

OMM is pseudoscience and deserves derision, just like "CAM".

But why should they be converted? Just to appease you? So you can see the letters "MD" in someone's coat instead of "DO"? How does it in any way affect YOU that DOs exist if you want to integrate them into the MD world, which only means a change in letters?

And MD programs have lip service to people who believed in phrenology, blood letting, etc. They should change to MMD (Doctor of Modern Medicine), right?

 

[NonTraditional3]

Doctor of Biomedicine.

Or, we could just go MBBS, or MD, CM.

 

[deleted103644]

But why should they be converted? Just to appease you? So you can see the letters "MD" in someone's coat instead of "DO"? How does it in any way affect YOU that DOs exist if you want to integrate them into the MD world, which only means a change in letters?

And MD programs have lip service to people who believed in phrenology, blood letting, etc. They should change to MMD (Doctor of Modern Medicine), right?

No, they don't.

MD programs do not teach phrenology at all, why do DO programs still teach AT Still's drivel?

I dislike all pseudoscience. The only reason I address your pseudoscience of choice on this forum is because people like you advocate it here.

The only reason the DO degree exists is because AT Still believed that physical manipulations could heal all illness. Do you really need to keep this distinction?

Dentists have two degrees because Harvard was snotty about its Latin.

If that were the reason for two degrees in medicine and they had the same accreditation standards I wouldn't care.

They do not - even if you get past the OMM nonsense, the COCA allows for-profit schools and is otherwise much less restrictive than the LCME.

 

[NonTraditional3]

Apparently Andrew Taylor never heard of cancer, or interstitial lung diseases, or AIDS.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Apparently Andrew Taylor never heard of cancer, or interstitial lung diseases, or AIDS.

Well, HIV didn't exist until the mid to late 20th century. Likewise no one understood cancer until about that time as well. Remember the 19th century was the era where people believed that diseases and maggots spontaneously form due to miasma or divine energy.

 

[MedPR]

Apparently Andrew Taylor never heard of cancer, or interstitial lung diseases, or AIDS.

He certainly didn't hear of AIDS.

 

[NonTraditional3]

Well, HIV didn't exist until the mid to late 20th century. Likewise no one understood cancer until about that time as well. Remember the 19th century was the era where people believed that diseases and maggots spontaneously form due to miasma or divine energy.

Touche salesman.

 

[TriagePreMed]

No, they don't.

MD programs do not teach phrenology at all, why do DO programs still teach AT Still's drivel?

I dislike all pseudoscience. The only reason I address your pseudoscience of choice on this forum is because people like you advocate it here.

The only reason the DO degree exists is because AT Still believed that physical manipulations could heal all illness. Do you really need to keep this distinction?

Dentists have two degrees because Harvard was snotty about its Latin.

If that were the reason for two degrees in medicine and they had the same accreditation standards I wouldn't care.

They do not - even if you get past the OMM nonsense, the COCA allows for-profit schools and is otherwise much less restrictive than the LCME.

I will say that I do believe you're right that OMM has pseudoscience limitations, and in that sense, I would agree to removing the aspects that aren't scientifically verifiable. However, I'm not one to really be swayed by the idea that we should reject a historical figure because not everything he believed in became scientifically accurate. We still give great respect to Darwin, yet we know that he didn't have Mendelian beliefs of genetics.

I don't like the idea of COCA allowing for-profit schools, but I also don't like the idea that we should hand everything to LCME. But again, that does not affect MDs in any way.

Either way, if you expect for everyone in the COCA/AOA leadership to give up their power to the LCME, you're smoking crack. The closest I can ever see to a compromise is allowing for earners of the D.O. degree to be licensed as MD's and be able to advertise as such in similar fashion to MBBS graduates.

 

[Dharma]

Either way, if you expect for everyone in the COCA/AOA leadership to give up their power to the LCME, you're smoking crack. The closest I can ever see to a compromise is allowing for earners of the D.O. degree to be licensed as MD's and be able to advertise as such in similar fashion to MBBS graduates.

 

[NonTraditional3]

+1

 

[HalfListic]

I think that DO schools are lower tier MD programs with added lip service to a 19th century quack.

They are a valid option for students who can't get into a decent MD program, but the DO degree should really cease to exist and they should be converted to MD programs.

I have nothing against DO students, with a possible exception for those who are OMM defenders.

OMM is pseudoscience and deserves derision, just like "CAM".

You realize when you write like this you just come across as a teenaged know-it-all, right? I mean, I actually agree with you on so many points, but I have to cut through your d-bag explanations and johnny-over-Dramatizations what the DO degree and education is.

You know that I am a big supporter of converting DO to MD, but people like you make it difficult to make a sane argument. When you throw random facts at people and insult them, or their education (which is what you are doing, believe it or not) not only do you come off as a jerk, but you marginalize your argument and entrench people more deeply in their own beliefs.

DO schools are not just lower tier MD schools. Thats an over-simplification and you know it. The top tier schools are basically equal to many MD programs and will continue to grow. If they weren't discriminated by residency programs, they would be indiscernible from many MD programs, and thats not their fault so it says nothing to their quality.

OMM isn't all pseudoscience either. Again, you have seen me say that we should be defined by OMM, but hell, it works. Massage works. Electrotherapy works. These are complementary therapies because they are crap alone, but they sure to help the healing process along. With more academic and clinical attention, complementary therapies could be a big benefit to general practice and could help the gen public achieve greater wellness. They can't replace surgery, and can be abused like any other treatment, but if it helps people its ok for doctors who want to pursue it to do so. Medicine is an ever growing, ever learning science. Its good to be academically skeptical, but if you seriously tell yourself that OMM is the same as energy crystals then you are either lying to yourself or you are too closed minded for your own good.