DO school or conditional acceptance to dream school?

[Lawpy]

Thank you for proving my point that whatever the OP decides, it should be based on a careful factoring of ALL pros and cons to make a determination that is best for OP. As far as your remarks about my "crude" dismissal of Anatomy's post, my response was in regards to a portion of his statement which I quoted and bolded which was quite dismissive to those who don't share his opinion, not his entire post.

Except that wasn't your original point since you were arguing for OP to take the DO acceptance. It's understood that careful decision making should be done. The discussion ultimately boils down to short term benefits with long term costs vs short term costs with long term benefits. AnatomyGrey argues for the latter and believes those arguing for the former doesn't understand the process. He's right and that's not a personal attack on anyone. In fact, it fits well to your later assertion that careful decision making should be made since it is a gut reaction by many people here (especially the desperate ones) to take the acceptance and run. That's the opposite of careful decision making.

The conditional MD has some drawbacks and it's important for OP to check for any hidden requirements involved and contact the school for clarification. But comparing the short term costs of conditional MD with long term career restrictions of DO, it's evident conditional MD has fewer costs. Combining that with superior resources with conditional MD makes it clear it's a better option. This is purely a cost-benefit analysis based on information provided by OP.

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[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Except that wasn't your original point since you were arguing for OP to take the DO acceptance. It's understood that careful decision making should be done. The discussion ultimately boils down to short term benefits with long term costs vs short term costs with long term benefits. AnatomyGrey argues for the latter and believes those arguing for the former doesn't understand the process. He's right and that's not a personal attack on anyone. In fact, it fits well to your later assertion that careful decision making should be made since it is a gut reaction by many people here (especially the desperate ones) to take the acceptance and run. That's the opposite of careful decision making.

The conditional MD has some drawbacks and it's important for OP to check for any hidden requirements involved and contact the school for clarification. But comparing the short term costs of conditional MD with long term career restrictions of DO, it's evident conditional MD has fewer costs. Combining that with superior resources with conditional MD makes it clear it's a better option. This is purely a cost-benefit analysis based on information provided by OP.

Agreed. If OP is confident he can manage a B in all the post-bacc courses, which it seems like he is, then the conditional MD is the way to go for sure. If the possibility of not meeting that minimum is real, then go DO.

But it seems like OP feels like he can handle it, in which case the choice is clear.

 

[SpoiledMilk]

Except that wasn't your original point since you were arguing for OP to take the DO acceptance. It's understood that careful decision making should be done. The discussion ultimately boils down to short term benefits with long term costs vs short term costs with long term benefits. AnatomyGrey argues for the latter and believes those arguing for the former doesn't understand the process. He's right and that's not a personal attack on anyone. In fact, it fits well to your later assertion that careful decision making should be made since it is a gut reaction by many people here (especially the desperate ones) to take the acceptance and run. That's the opposite of careful decision making.

The conditional MD has some drawbacks and it's important for OP to check for any hidden requirements involved and contact the school for clarification. But comparing the short term costs of conditional MD with long term career restrictions of DO, it's evident conditional MD has fewer costs. Combining that with superior resources with conditional MD makes it clear it's a better option. This is purely a cost-benefit analysis based on information provided by OP.

Ok @Lawper. I respect your POV as a more learned SDNer. Let's just agree that OP has been provided excellent advice from this debate and that he/she makes a decision that is best for him/her.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

The discussion ultimately boils down to short term benefits with long term costs vs short term costs with long term benefits. AnatomyGrey argues for the latter and believes those arguing for the former doesn't understand the process. He's right and that's not a personal attack on anyone.

Lawper gets it

 

[USMLE260BROOO]

Ok, listen carefully.
I am NOT a premed. I am about to start my fellowship year in IR. I help to select residents, I teach med students and I know about fellowship and job markets.

Take the top 25 MD. Just do it.

Whoever says stone in hand worth two birds or whatever, OP already have both. The MD school, if top 25, Will be cheaper

I was gonna say literally the opposite. You will end up losing a good chunk of money if you wait it out because you will lose 1 year of salary.




Taking the top 25 MD is extremely attractive, but, I would advise taking the acceptance and thanking yourself 1 year from now. Good Luck and keep us in the loop of what you decide!

 

[USMLE260BROOO]

i really disagree with people on here. If I was in your position, I would definitely take the acceptance. UNLESS!!: you are interested in doing a really competitive residency that pays more money in the long run. If thats the case, you are obviously taking a risk that you may not get into the residency solely based off of being a DO, which although is probably not gonna end up being the case, it is a possibility that you will have to live with. So if IM, FM, Peds, OB, or PMR interest you, go DO and dont look back. if you are interested in Anesthesia, Rads, General Surgery, or ER, I would think about it more but would still probably take the risk. If you are looking at ortho, optho, derm, urology, ENT then I would wait a year and do the MD.

Thats the only way you would lose money if you go DO. otherwise you would save easy 70-80k if you just did the DO and started a year earlier, and thats already calculating in the fact that the DO school will be 30-40k more expensive than the MD with interest included.

 

[SpoiledMilk]

Thanks @USMLE260BROOO for sharing your insight. I am sure OP appreciates hearing from someone advocating to take the guarantee DO who does not appear to not "understand the process."

 

[DrfluffyMD]

I was gonna say literally the opposite. You will end up losing a good chunk of money if you wait it out because you will lose 1 year of salary.




Taking the top 25 MD is extremely attractive, but, I would advise taking the acceptance and thanking yourself 1 year from now. Good Luck and keep us in the loop of what you decide!

Except if OP gone to general surgery vs ended up having to do primary care. It can happen if OP got 235.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

i really disagree with people on here. If I was in your position, I would definitely take the acceptance. UNLESS!!: you are interested in doing a really competitive residency that pays more money in the long run. If thats the case, you are obviously taking a risk that you may not get into the residency solely based off of being a DO, which although is probably not gonna end up being the case, it is a possibility that you will have to live with. So if IM, FM, Peds, OB, or PMR interest you, go DO and dont look back. if you are interested in Anesthesia, Rads, General Surgery, or ER, I would think about it more but would still probably take the risk. If you are looking at ortho, optho, derm, urology, ENT then I would wait a year and do the MD.

Thats the only way you would lose money if you go DO. otherwise you would save easy 70-80k if you just did the DO and started a year earlier, and thats already calculating in the fact that the DO school will be 30-40k more expensive than the MD with interest included.

How do you predict competitiveness of specialitiss 4 years out? I would like to have your foresight.

 

[bbbcccppp]

S

 

[jcorpsmanMD]

How do you predict competitiveness of specialitiss 4 years out? I would like to have your foresight.

As would I, maybe he's got some good stock tips too.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Thanks @USMLE260BROOO for sharing your insight. I am sure OP appreciates hearing from someone advocating to take the guarantee DO who does not appear to not "understand the process."

Ah yes, people who have been members since Thursday and happen to be going against the advice given to the OP by actual attendings definitely give good advice. The MD makes every field more open, including primary care. Add fellowships on top of that and yes the value of the two letters is quite significant to someone who wants to keep their doors open. Remember I say this as someone who will be attending a DO school. I am not a "DO hater" (seeing as I will be one), but I am definitely a realist and making an investment in their future is the wise choice for the OP.

The year of attending money argument used to be something I believed in until I actually looked at the numbers and saw how easy it is to make that money up over the course of a career.

 

[2017mdapp]

comments removed per OP request

 

[USMLE260BROOO]

As would I, maybe he's got some good stock tips too.

Stock tips: $AMD. Hold for a few years and dont look back.

For specialty competetiveness, FM IM Peds are likely never gonna be too competetive for DOs. I can see where it would be tough to predict competetiveness of other specialties, and that risk would have to be calculated in OP's decision making. but if he wants IM FM Peds, DO this year would be the way to go.

also. please do not buy $AMD. lol

CC: @DrfluffyMD

 

[USMLE260BROOO]

Except if OP gone to general surgery vs ended up having to do primary care. It can happen if OP got 235.

a 235 score as a DO will land you General Surgery.....

 

[DrfluffyMD]

a 235 score as a DO will land you General Surgery.....

4 years from now after merger?

You know what else you can't predict? Any training program in IM that will lead to subspecialization.

Not sure about your stock tip either with Vega and the new AMD processor.

 

[USMLE260BROOO]

4 years from now after merger?

You know what else you can't predict? Any training program in IM that will lead to subspecialization.

Not sure about your stock tip either with Vega and the new AMD processor.

haha about the AMD thing.

I mean its about probabilities, a 235 is a stellar score and the DO stigma is becoming less and less every year. Sure, its possible that after the merger DO student acceptance go to crap but its not very probable. Especially with a broad application.

 

[Stagg737]

I'd like to say the MD is an easy choice, but realistically, OP hasn't provided us all the information necessary to give him the proper advice because of the following:

To op. Not sure why some of these responses appear disingenuous as if you wish to be addressed in the third person

I am wondering if one B- would disqualify you.

Everyone is saying that the MD is a no brainer, but even if it's not a major life event, mistakes happen. OP already stated he has to get at least a B in everything, which is much different than maintaining a 3.0 GPA. If this program is like the program I attended before med school, a single grade below B- means you're done. No excuses. Period. Getting all B's may sound easy for most of us, but if OP has one bad class or one subject he screws up in, it could potentially mean the end of his medical career (at least anytime in the near future). Given all the benefits which this program is offering, it sounds like the kind of program where OP would need to prove they're a strong candidate and if they can't, then too bad.

A few people have also inferred that this may be the type of program that accepts people with solid MCATs and overall apps/URM candidates who just had mediocre GPAs. Knowing the policy would be even more important in this case, because if grades have always been OP's issue, then assuming he'll be able to get all B's is just setting him up for potential disaster.

Given OP's career goals and the info we have, I want to tell him to go for the MD. Realistically though, OP hasn't given us enough info on the policies of the program or his own academic background that I'd be comfortable telling him to give up a guaranteed acceptance to chase a dream. The risk is that if he entered the program and ended up not matriculating to the MD school, he'd have to explain on every application going forward why he turned down an acceptance to a U.S. med school, and saying he turned down an acceptance to enter what's basically a linkage post-bac program would be a pretty massive red flag Imo.

 

[allanMED15]

A few people have also inferred that this may be the type of program that accepts people with solid MCATs and overall apps/URM candidates who just had mediocre GPAs. Knowing the policy would be even more important in this case, because if grades have always been OP's issue, then assuming he'll be able to get all B's is just setting him up for potential disaster.

I'm right there with you and want to tell the OP to gun for the MD too. But to add on to your point, the post bacc is at a top 25 school. I think OP should take that into consideration if they've had difficulties in the past as it may be that much harder to maintain a B in each class.

No matter what you decide OP, good luck!

 

[cactusman]

I'm right there with you and want to tell the OP to gun for the MD too. But to add on to your point, the post bacc is at a top 25 school. I think OP should take that into consideration if they've had difficulties in the past as it may be that much harder to maintain a B in each class.

No matter what you decide OP, good luck!

Sounds like the post-bacc may actually be at the University at Buffalo undergrad even though it leads into a highly-ranked med school.

 

[mcloaf]

haha about the AMD thing.

I mean its about probabilities, a 235 is a stellar score and the DO stigma is becoming less and less every year. Sure, its possible that after the merger DO student acceptance go to crap but its not very probable. Especially with a broad application.

A 235 is 57th percentile as of December 2016. It's fine but not what most would consider stellar.

 

[IlyaR]

1 year is nothing, I'd go for the MD. At least from my understanding of how post bacc's stratify their grade brackets, it should be a walk in the park

 

[Med Ed]

A few people have also inferred that this may be the type of program that accepts people with solid MCATs and overall apps/URM candidates who just had mediocre GPAs. Knowing the policy would be even more important in this case, because if grades have always been OP's issue, then assuming he'll be able to get all B's is just setting him up for potential disaster.

If you look back through the OP's posts his GPA is in the 3.1-3.2 range.

I understand your point, but if OP can't hack B's while focusing on undergrad science courses I would say heading to DO school is a setup for potential disaster.

 

[Lawpy]

A 235 is 57th percentile as of December 2016. It's fine but not what most would consider stellar.

Do you have a source illustrating Step 1 trends? Or at least data of Step 1 scores in the past few years? I actually thought the 50th percentile was a 220, so 235 = 57th percentile in 2016 is very surprising.

 

[mcloaf]

Do you have a source illustrating Step 1 trends? Or at least data of Step 1 scores in the past few years? I actually thought the 50th percentile was a 220, so 235 = 57th percentile in 2016 is very surprising.

The numbers I'm quoting are from this PDF. The mean has been high 220's for some time now.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Do you have a source illustrating Step 1 trends? Or at least data of Step 1 scores in the past few years? I actually thought the 50th percentile was a 220, so 235 = 57th percentile in 2016 is very surprising.

It's been steadily going up the past few years. I think the average this year was a 232 or something like that. The average hasn't been 220 for some time now and has been high 220s with a point or so creep every year.

I wonder if they will readjust the scale. I think that the DO world has already had to do that for COMLEX because the score creep got too high.

 

[Stagg737]

If you look back through the OP's posts his GPA is in the 3.1-3.2 range.

I understand your point, but if OP can't hack B's while focusing on undergrad science courses I would say heading to DO school is a setup for potential disaster.

If that's true of OP, then going into the MD program would also be potentially disastrous. If one B- could get him kicked out of the program, then a history of getting a 3.1 in UG does not bode well for that plan...At least in med school you only need C's to pass. If this is "upper-level UG classes at a top 25", the classes may be just as difficult as the regular med school curriculum at a less prestigious MD/DO program. So I'd personally say go for the sure thing in the acceptance where the school will do everything they can to make sure OP doesn't fail out over a post-bac that will potentially dump him for 1 grade that would have been easily passing at the med school.

That being said, we still don't know the policies or academic support provided by the "post-bac" program, so we can't really give any legitimately accurate advice at this point.

Do you have a source illustrating Step 1 trends? Or at least data of Step 1 scores in the past few years? I actually thought the 50th percentile was a 220, so 235 = 57th percentile in 2016 is very surprising.

Nope. The mean for at least the past 5 years has been in the upper 220's, with it being between 228-230 for the last 3 years. 235 is a solid score, but certainly not something that's going to make any applicant a stand-out.

It's been steadily going up the past few years. I think the average this year was a 232 or something like that. The average hasn't been 220 for some time now and has been high 220s with a point or so creep every year.

I wonder if they will readjust the scale. I think that the DO world has already had to do that for COMLEX because the score creep got too high.

The AOA adjusts COMLEX Level 1 on a regular basis (I think every 3-5 years) to bring the mean back down to 500 and keep the scores standardized. However, the inflation is still there, it just means you have to get a higher raw percentage today to get 500 than you needed 5 years ago.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

What percentage of that postbac's students maintain a B average?

 

[Stagg737]

What percentage of that postbac's students maintain a B average?

Depends on the program. I thought the one I was in was pretty easy and most of us maintained a 3.7+. We did have 1 person out of ~30 get kicked out because they got a C and 1 or 2 other people were put on probation for getting a B- first semester (you were allowed 1 B- while you were there, 2 B- or any grade lower was an automatic dismissal). I've heard of other programs that are more difficult, but Idk if there's any broad data about postbacs or SMPs because they can vary so much.

 

[Med Ed]

If that's true of OP, then going into the MD program would also be potentially disastous.

Nah. If you look at the last data dump from the old MCAT, OP has an 87% chance of graduating in four years (overall average 87%), a 92% chance of passing Step 1 on the first try (average 94%), and a 1.7% chance of getting dismissed for academic reasons (average 1.4%).

The basic issue is not that the OP is an academic risk, either in medical school or the post-bac. It's that medical school admission committees are notoriously risk-averse. To that end, it is extremely unlikely that they would set someone up to fail by way of conditional acceptance. And they know a lot more about the OP than any of us do.

 

[Stagg737]

Nah. If you look at the last data dump from the old MCAT, OP has an 87% chance of graduating in four years (overall average 87%), a 92% chance of passing Step 1 on the first try (average 94%), and a 1.7% chance of getting dismissed for academic reasons (average 1.4%).

The basic issue is not that the OP is an academic risk, either in medical school or the post-bac. It's that medical school admission committees are notoriously risk-averse. To that end, it is extremely unlikely that they would set someone up to fail by way of conditional acceptance. And they know a lot more about the OP than any of us do.

Here's my problem with your reasoning: If the medical school was confident that OP would be successful in medical school, they would have accepted him flat out. Like you said, medical schools are risk-averse, and they clearly felt like giving OP a straight acceptance is too great of a risk, otherwise they would have just accepted him. So while I do think the school sees potential in OP, I don't think they're convinced he'll cut it.

From linkage/post-bac programs I've looked into, the type OP is describing sounds like a "second chance" program that's meant to allow students who weren't accepted to get a second chance without having to reapply. With these programs, they do want you to succeed, but they also aren't afraid to say 'see ya' if you can't cut it. It's basically an insurance policy for the med school to decrease the potential risk of accepting a student. If the student proves they can cut it, the med school just got to fill a spot with someone they know can succeed. If the student fails, the school doesn't have to worry about the risk of that person having been accepted and failing. So again, until we know more about the programs policies and how strictly they're enforced, I wouldn't feel comfortable telling OP to turn down a guaranteed acceptance.

Edit: Found some info on the program OP is considering. Apparently 92% of those who have been in the program (~20 people for about past 20 years) matriculate into medical school. Of those who matriculate, 85% graduate from medical school. Given that info and the goals OP has stated, I'd lean towards OP entering the linkage program.

However, I would encourage OP to talk to the program director and ask what kind of support is offered and the expectations of the program during and after completing it. I say this because it's apparently a state-sponsored program whose goal is producing a certain demographic of physician to practice primary care in that state. Given OP potentially wanting to enter academic medicine and wanting to keep the option of competitive specialties open, I'd make sure there aren't obligations of the program which would prevent him from taking those paths should he choose to pursue them.

 

[Med Ed]

Here's my problem with your reasoning: If the medical school was confident that OP would be successful in medical school, they would have accepted him flat out.

Not necessarily. A typical admissions season is full of adcoms saying "this applicant would be fine except for _____." Sometimes the person needs 1-2 more good semesters, sometimes a decent MCAT retake, sometimes additional community service, sometimes a PS rewrite, etc. And the vast majority of these individuals would be completely fine students if admitted, but with high competition for limited seats the schools can afford to be picky and demand that even isolated deficiencies be addressed, even if they have little or no functional consequence. What makes the OP's case a little unusual (and interesting) is that a program exists to shore up the one area where he was probably found lacking.

I have now been around long enough, and have had enough conversations with colleagues, to see that admissions committees are both predictable and idiosyncratic. They are predictable in the sense that they all develop factions that give primacy to a different part of the application. There is the GPA/transcript faction, the MCAT faction, the EC faction, the PS faction, the LOR faction, etc. The idiosyncrasy arises from which faction(s) decide to speak up for or against a given applicant. If the OP went before my committee, the outcome of a conditional acceptance would have been a compromise between the GPA faction and value-added faction.

 

[MiamiBoyy]

Thank you all for the input. Ive decided to participate in the program and "bet on myself" as someone said earlier. Not only is the school amazing in my eyes it feels like its a much better fit than the other. I truly believe the admissions committee sees something in me (as @Med Ed and others have stated) and are also betting on me to succeed. More importantly, I believe in my own ability to excel in the program.