Do NOT go into Dentistry - Trust me it is SATURATED

[Big Time Hoosier]

the new political movement on the horizon

Is this the political movement you’re alluding to?

The Year Socialism Became a Dirty Word—Again

You can count the number of left-leaning governments in Europe with the fingers of one hand nowadays.

www.bloomberg.com

Big Hoss

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[Blueshirts]

Walmart dentistry is in the frameworks. It's coming as well with the new political movement on the horizon.

Are you a dentist, dental student, or pre-dent? You post here often enough

 

[Gyuji]

View attachment 290361

Is this the political movement you’re alluding to?

The Year Socialism Became a Dirty Word—Again

You can count the number of left-leaning governments in Europe with the fingers of one hand nowadays.

www.bloomberg.com

Big Hoss

If you think "socialized medicine" is bad for your field, corporate capitalism is worse. Once they control the dental market with a stranglehold, this "own your private practice" dream will be a thing of the past. Corporations' bottom line is profits, by doing so, cutting salaries, replacing professionals with lesser laborers, buying policies to skewer the market in their favor, etc. Prior to Obamacare, corps were just 10% of the dental market. Now, they're 1/3 of the market and gaining more grounds. And you guys aren't doing nothing about it. This is why corporate capitalism is killing capitalism.

 

[schmoob]

If you think "socialized medicine" is bad for your field, corporate capitalism is worse. Once they control the dental market with a stranglehold, this "own your private practice" dream will be a thing of the past. Corporations' bottom line is profits, by doing so, cutting salaries, replacing professionals with lesser laborers, buying policies to skewer the market in their favor, etc. Prior to Obamacare, corps were just 10% of the dental market. Now, they're 1/3 of the market and gaining more grounds. And you guys aren't doing nothing about it. This is why corporate capitalism is killing capitalism.

Can you please provide data that dental corps are 1/3 market?

Also, all businesses bottom line is profit, it’s not restricted to the evil corporations. This includes the solo practice.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

If you think "socialized medicine" is bad for your field, corporate capitalism is worse. Once they control the dental market with a stranglehold, this "own your private practice" dream will be a thing of the past. Corporations' bottom line is profits, by doing so, cutting salaries, replacing professionals with lesser laborers, buying policies to skewer the market in their favor, etc. Prior to Obamacare, corps were just 10% of the dental market. Now, they're 1/3 of the market and gaining more grounds. And you guys aren't doing nothing about it. This is why corporate capitalism is killing capitalism.

Well I guess we could give your beloved Marxism a go. But...I’d rather worry about corporate dentistry than literally starving to death like the Venezuelans.

***TRIGGER WARNING***

Big Hoss

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Can you please provide data that dental corps are 1/3 market?

No, he can’t do that because 1) it’s false and 2) he’s too busy plotting the demise of the bourgeoisie.

Big Hoss

 

[ToothJockey]

Just go to a your instate dental school and you won't have to worry about predicting the supply of dentists.

Last time I checked, in state schools weren't free. One of my instate schools, total COA is 531k for residents, without factoring in interest.

 

[ToothJockey]

speak of the devil....

Walmart Introduces First-Ever Health Center, Which Includes a Comprehensive Dental Clinic

The issues of healthcare affordability and accessibility are two of the biggest and most prevailing concerns in the United States today. Walmart is now prioritizing promoting better health outcomes for...

groupdentistrynow.com

Walmart alone has more revenues than all of dentistry combined. In the future people will probably be having neurosurgery in a Walmart too...it's just a matter of time.

 

[deleted903013]

One of my instate schools, total COA is 531k for residents, without factoring in interest.

What's the cost for non residents? 531k pre interest is insane for in state students.

 

[ToothJockey]

What's the cost for non residents? 531k pre interest is insane for in state students.

I'm not sure, I think it might be the same. I think it's a private school that's why, but honestly I'm not sure I even plan on applying to this school so I haven't looked into it much.

However, even the cheapest school in my state is around 300k total without interest for residents. Defintely not a small amount.

 

[Gyuji]

Well I guess we could give your beloved Marxism a go. But...I’d rather worry about corporate dentistry than literally starving to death like the Venezuelans.

***TRIGGER WARNING***

View attachment 290395

Big Hoss

Calling me a Marxist yet you praise a Marxist. If you want to refer Venezuela as the consequences of socialism, how about the true consequences of 19th century libertarian economics of Honduras.

Look, thanks to your preferred economics that Trump did which is Bush Jr's tax cuts on-steroids and further deregulation, we're heading for an economic crash next year which some here and I, and even your libertarian idol Peter Schiff, predicted.

 

[bracketbuster68]

Calling me a Marxist yet you praise a Marxist. If you want to refer Venezuela as the consequences of socialism, how about the true consequences of 19th century libertarian economics of Honduras.

Look, thanks to your preferred economics that Trump did which is Bush Jr's tax cuts on-steroids and further deregulation, we're heading for an economic crash next year which some here and I, and even your libertarian idol Peter Schiff, predicted.

you guys in 2016: "economy is going to crash"
you guys in 2017: "economy is going to crash"
you guys in 2018: "economy is definitely going to crash"
you guys in 2019: "ok lets just try impeachment"

 

[deleted903013]

Calling me a Marxist yet you praise a Marxist. If you want to refer Venezuela as the consequences of socialism, how about the true consequences of 19th century libertarian economics of Honduras.

Socialism and unfettered libertarianism both only make sense inside ideological think tanks. While the theories may seem compelling, in the real world, neither of them work.

 

[ToothJockey]

Sooo about that saturation. With the new dental schools opening up, and slowly declining applicants, do you guys think dental schools will start to face pressure soon? The new dental schools will probably bring the incoming class size to 7k+, while number of applicants has been going down from a high of 13k to low 11k now. As tuition rises, applicant numbers will probably go down, and the applicant:seat ratio will be closer to 1. The acceptace rate has also been rising, it's 54% in 2018 after being in the 30's and low 40's a decade ago.

I figure eventually quality and number of applicants will decline as students see dentistry is not as great as they imagined. It could be the 1980's in dentistry again. Thoughts?

 

[1TrickUnicorn]

I showed this to my cousin whose a dentist and she started laughing. She graduated this year and is getting paid $650/day working at corporate right off the back. That's about $160k within 50 miles from a major city. So I think this guy is probably living a super saturated area or is working at a bad clinic.

 

[Giovanotto]

I showed this to my cousin whose a dentist and she started laughing. She graduated this year and is getting paid $650/day working at corporate right off the back. That's about $160k within 50 miles from a major city. So I think this guy is probably living a super saturated area or is working at a bad clinic.

???
Sounds like a terrible gig, why is she laughing?

 

[GoDental101]

???
Sounds like a terrible gig, why is she laughing?

Sounds like she likes her job and likes the compensation.

 

[hellopeople]

Sooo about that saturation. With the new dental schools opening up, and slowly declining applicants, do you guys think dental schools will start to face pressure soon? The new dental schools will probably bring the incoming class size to 7k+, while number of applicants has been going down from a high of 13k to low 11k now. As tuition rises, applicant numbers will probably go down, and the applicant:seat ratio will be closer to 1. The acceptace rate has also been rising, it's 54% in 2018 after being in the 30's and low 40's a decade ago.

I figure eventually quality and number of applicants will decline as students see dentistry is not as great as they imagined. It could be the 1980's in dentistry again. Thoughts?

If you don't mind:
Are there new schools that will be opening soon?
Have there been new schools in the last couple years?
Where did you learn that the acceptance rate is 54%
I entered dental school nearly a decade ago and am way out of the loop.

And no, I don't see graduation levels dropping in the foreseeable future unless they put a hard cap on grad plus loans.
They can just lower the barrier to entry and open new applicant pools.

 

[hellopeople]

Well **** lol 4 years later... dental clinics in Walmart

Lol oh god. I literally remember when this was posted.
That's funny.
I mean, not at all funny. But still.

 

[ToothJockey]

If you don't mind:
Are there new schools that will be opening soon?
Have there been new schools in the last couple years?
Where did you learn that the acceptance rate is 54%
I entered dental school nearly a decade ago and am way out of the loop.

Yeah for sure.

I'm pretty sure there is a dental school opening in Texas, El Paso soon. It is meant to solve the imaginary "shortage", when all it will do is saturate the profession even more. In reality, there's no shortage there's just a maldistribution of dentists, because no one wants to practice in the boonies.
A school just opened recently, Tuoro Dental in New York, as if New York needed more schools lmao. There has been like 10 dental schools opened since 2000s for a shortage that didn't exist, pretty much Pharmacy 2.0

https://www.adea.org/ADEA-Dental-School-Applicants-and-Enrollees-2018-Entering-Class.xlsx

You can check out # of applicants here

And no, I don't see graduation levels dropping in the foreseeable future unless they put a hard cap on grad plus loans.
They can just lower the barrier to entry and open new applicant pools.

That's what I was wondering, what if the quality of applicants decline. Will these desperate schools start accepting anybody, even somebody with a 1.8 GPA and a 12 AA? That will seriously cheapen the profession IMO

 

[ToothJockey]

???
Sounds like a terrible gig, why is she laughing?

160k is pretty decent for a new grad, but the thing is, associates a decade ago received similar pay (120k-170k). By now, associate pay should have been closer to 200k, because of inflation. Every other job has seen sizeable pay increases to adjust for new cost of living. Dentistry is still living in 2005. A big reason is too much supply, not enough demand.

 

[hellopeople]

Yeah for sure.

I'm pretty sure there is a dental school opening in Texas, El Paso soon. It is meant to solve the imaginary "shortage", when all it will do is saturate the profession even more. In reality, there's no shortage there's just a maldistribution of dentists, because no one wants to practice in the boonies.
A school just opened recently, Tuoro Dental in New York, as if New York needed more schools lmao. There has been like 10 dental schools opened since 2000s for a shortage that didn't exist, pretty much Pharmacy 2.0

https://www.adea.org/ADEA-Dental-School-Applicants-and-Enrollees-2018-Entering-Class.xlsx

You can check out # of applicants here


That's what I was wondering, what if the quality of applicants decline. Will these desperate schools start accepting anybody, even somebody with a 1.8 GPA and a 12 AA? That will seriously cheapen the profession IMO

Thanks. I'll look at that.

And yeah, I feel the competition is driving some over-treatment to be honest. I periodically run into patients who come tell me another dentist still wanted to do an additional 5 restorations or whatever only to find that there isn't a single tooth I'd even consider touching.
Doing the pharmacy thing would be a damn shame, or at least I assume based on looking through their forum on here.

 

[Giovanotto]

160k is pretty decent for a new grad, but the thing is, associates a decade ago received similar pay (120k-170k). By now, associate pay should have been closer to 200k, because of inflation. Every other job has seen sizeable pay increases to adjust for new cost of living. Dentistry is still living in 2005. A big reason is too much supply, not enough demand.

tell that to your school's dean approving a 3-5% tuition raise year after year. I'm not even in dentistry, but from the outside looking in, it doesn't look great.

 

[ToothJockey]

tell that to your school's dean approving a 3-5% tuition raise year after year. I'm not even in dentistry, but from the outside looking in, it doesn't look great.

It honestly isn't sustainable. I figure a market correction is inevitable. When debt gets to 650k+, I don't know any sane person who would want to apply to dental schools anymore, especially if income stagnates at 150k. That debt to income ratio will cause Big Hoss to have heart palpitations.

Hopefully that will cause school class sizes to decrease, schools to close down, and a reversal in supply and demand.

 

[deleted903013]

When debt gets to 650k+, I don't know any sane person who would want to apply to dental schools anymore, especially if income stagnates at 150k.

People still apply in droves to USC and NYU, which cost around 600k post interest. NYU dental still receives around 3,400 applications a year. I think the cost might have to get closer to one million.

 

[hellopeople]

We used to say that about 400k when that was the most expensive school (USC at the time I think). I recall 500k being tossed around as some unrealistic "imagine if it gets there" number. It's kind of getting comical at this point to be honest.

 

[ToothJockey]

People still apply in droves to USC and NYU, which cost around 600k post interest. NYU dental still receives around 3,400 applications a year. I think the cost might have to get closer to one million.

Unfortunately you’re probably right. The crazy thing is, back in the 80’s students stopped applying to dental school not because of tuition prices, but because of declining income, high saturation, lower busyness levels.

You would think this past decade of struggles in dentistry would have tanked applicant numbers but naa

Like you, I’m not entirely convinced even high tuition will stop these students from applying.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

 

[ToothJockey]

We used to say that about 400k when that was the most expensive school (USC at the time I think). I recall 500k being tossed around as some unrealistic "imagine if it gets there" number. It's kind of getting comical at this point to be honest.

I’m gonna come back to this thread in 10 years when USC is charging 1 million and there are still thousands of applicants....

We think it’s crazy now, but pre-dents never cease to amaze


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

I remember a few years ago when I was pre-dental I went to one of those Midwestern pre-dental workshops that is put on by their SGA. I remember spending a few days with the dental students and asking them about their loan situations and if they were worried at all. I was SHOCKED at the feedback I got. Most of the students were 2nd year students who had ALSO done the Midwestern 2 year masters program, which is also crazy expensive. These guys were gonna be graduating with about 600k in debt and didnt care at all. I was literally floored with the innocence of "nah I'm not worried at all. Itll be good. Ill just own a practice and pay it off aggressively and live within my means." I dont think Ill ever forget that because I'm pretty sure that was the first time where I realized how street dumb dental and medical students can be even though we are book smart haha

 

[deleted903013]

NYU Dental School Cost Projected at $673,000
Travis at the student loan planner projects the cost for the NYU dental class of 2023 to be $673,000. Holy moly. He even lists in one of NYU's presentations their website, NYU recommends having family pay off your interest while in school to make it more affordable. Even they know it costs too much.

 

[flossy_p]

NYU Dental School Cost Projected at $673,000
Travis at the student loan planner projects the cost for the NYU dental class of 2023 to be $673,000. Holy moly. He even lists in one of NYU's presentations their website, NYU recommends having family pay off your interest while in school to make it more affordable. Even they know it costs too much.

lol USC too.
my friend told me when she applied and interviewed there awhile back, a lady in their d. school financial office mentioned that hopefully students had rich fam to help support or try to marry rich and have their spouse support lol...

 

[AONLINE]

I showed this to my cousin whose a dentist and she started laughing. She graduated this year and is getting paid $650/day working at corporate right off the back. That's about $160k within 50 miles from a major city. So I think this guy is probably living a super saturated area or is working at a bad clinic.

The good thing about dentistry is that a full-time, 6-figure job is pretty much guaranteed as long as you graduate dental school and get your license. We have it much better than other professional degrees such as pharmacy and law where over 50% of graduates can’t find a job. Most of them also carry $200k of debt.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

6-figure job is pretty much guaranteed

Same case with a BS in petroleum engineering. And that’s a much shorter and cheaper road.

Big Hoss

 

[ToothJockey]

The good thing about dentistry is that a full-time, 6-figure job is pretty much guaranteed as long as you graduate dental school and get your license. We have it much better than other professional degrees such as pharmacy and law where over 50% of graduates can’t find a job. Most of them also carry $200k of debt.

I personally don't think breaking 6 figures is that big of a deal, maybe it's just my social circle, but plenty of jobs have 6 figure potential that don't require 8 years of school and a 500k investment. In the future, with inflation, 6 figures will be pretty common. Instead of thinking about income, think about net worth and reaching financial independence. A dentist is way behind on retirement savings and investments compared to a lot of other jobs, how are you going to save and invest when half your post tax salary goes to loans?

I would argue a self employed plumber will be more wealthy by age 40, given they invested well. They might not have the gaudy income, but it's all about net worth. Compounding interest....and they start much earlier than us.

 

[DocStranger]

This thread should be locked....

 

[ToothJockey]

This thread should be locked....

More like stickied dawg

This is the first thing pre-dents should read so they know whats up

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

This thread should be locked....

Big Hoss

 

[macsak]

I personally don't think breaking 6 figures is that big of a deal, maybe it's just my social circle, but plenty of jobs have 6 figure potential that don't require 8 years of school and a 500k investment. In the future, with inflation, 6 figures will be pretty common. Instead of thinking about income, think about net worth and reaching financial independence. A dentist is way behind on retirement savings and investments compared to a lot of other jobs, how are you going to save and invest when half your post tax salary goes to loans?

I would argue a self employed plumber will be more wealthy by age 40, given they invested well. They might not have the gaudy income, but it's all about net worth. Compounding interest....and they start much earlier than us.

compare it to someone who took a municipal garbage man straight out of high school...
think about the opportunity cost...

 

[ToothJockey]

compare it to someone who took a municipal garbage man straight out of high school...
think about the opportunity cost...

Exactly man, some of them make close to 100k in the right district. With some smart investing and saving, compare that man to a USC dental grad with 600k debt. By age 40, I'm fairly confident the garbage man is actually gonna have a higher net worth as crazy as it sounds. Compounding interest and an almost 10 year head start, whereas the USC grad starts with a highly negative net worth...

 

[macsak]

Exactly man, some of them make close to 100k in the right district. With some smart investing and saving, compare that man to a USC dental grad with 600k debt. By age 40, I'm fairly confident the garbage man is actually gonna have a higher net worth as crazy as it sounds. Compounding interest and an almost 10 year head start, whereas the USC grad starts with a highly negative net worth...

glad someone agrees with me
the last time I brought this up, there were a bunch of people that don't understand opportunity cost and argued that the dentist would easily outearn the garbageman
the high school to garbageman gets paid vacation, sick leave, and retirement from right after they graduate high school
while the dentist has to pay for undergrad and d school, and also pay for mission trips, volunteering and shadowing (yes, you pay for it because you could be working instead), DAT study materials (you also lose time here too), DAT fees, AADSAS and secondary apps, plus money and time lost for interview trips. in addition, you have national and regional boards and don't get to start working right away after graduation in may cases
then you have additional costs if you start your own practice...

 

[DocStranger]

Exactly man, some of them make close to 100k in the right district. With some smart investing and saving, compare that man to a USC dental grad with 600k debt. By age 40, I'm fairly confident the garbage man is actually gonna have a higher net worth as crazy as it sounds. Compounding interest and an almost 10 year head start, whereas the USC grad starts with a highly negative net worth...

Who wants to be a garbage man lmao. There’s a reason why they say do dentistry for the job itself, not only the money that comes with it.

 

[deleted903013]

Who wants to be a garbage man lmao. There’s a reason why they say do dentistry for the job itself, not only the money that comes with it.

Way to denigrate the working class. Being a garbageman is honorable work.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Who wants to be a garbage man lmao.

Who wants to spend the next 2-3 decades of their life with their hands in someone else’s mouth?! Pervert.

Big Hoss

 

[DocStranger]

Who wants to spend the next 2-3 decades of their life with their hands in someone else’s mouth?! Pervert.

Big Hoss

I’m talking about people pursuing a career in the health industry. How do you go from dentistry to garbageman? They’re not relevant to each other at all. This whole thread is about “money” and only that.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I’m talking about people pursuing a career in the health industry. How do you go from dentistry to garbageman? They’re not relevant to each other at all. This whole thread is about “money” and only that.

You do realize that sanitation workers have saved 1,000 times more lives than modern medicine ever has or will? Their job is literally “protecting health, saving lives - millions at a time.” Maybe you want go back to the good ol’ days when bubonic plague was a thing.

Big Hoss

 

[Faris_]

This conversation went off the rails. The whole reason sanitation was brought up was to compare opportunity cost with dentistry while considering it is an unwanted profession by most (all, in the case of this forum participants). I was in the army and ate s*** with both hands and would never go back ( had its moments and individual experience varies), we're not talking about the garbageman or military personal contribution to society compared to a dentist but job satisfaction on a personal level with comfortable living. As a dentist you're your own boss, relatively successful without the need to be born from rich, less work for more money, 9 to 5 only, and if you do it right you get paid to go to school. it is funny you can so easily through some righteous BS on the rest when am 100% sure none of you would want to be garbageman and would only do it for maybe a day to bolster your self-righteousness and pretentious personality.

 

[artist2022]

Keep it professional and quit it with the name-calling. It's not hard to discuss opinions while using professional language. Keep everything back to the topic at hand, without acting like children.

Report any posts in which users are violating the TOS, but otherwise use the new reactions we have or even the "Ignore User" function.

 

[ToothJockey]

I think people took the garbage man thing too literally... the point was to compare the financials between dentistry and a career which doesn't require as much schooling nor debt that dentistry does. Plug in any career you like and run the numbers yourself. Pick a healthcare career, physicians assistant for example.

It's very noble that you don't care about money, but I feel like that tune will change once you get hit with a 60k a year student loan note. Even the most altruistic doctors care about money, at the very least you want to be able to pay for your kids insanely high tuition in the future so they won't suffer like we have to.

For those of you who want to be more philanthropic, dedicate 2 days of your work week to go volunteer in your local dental clinic. You'll be working for free, but that shouldn't matter since you don't care about money. I've volunteered at those clinics, they are always in need for more dentist hours because dentists rarely want to volunteer there. It's nice to say these kinds of things on a forum, it's even better to actually act on it.

 

[DocStranger]

it is funny you can so easily through some righteous BS on the rest when am 100% sure none of you would want to be garbageman and would only do it for maybe a day to bolster your self-righteousness and pretentious personality.

EXACTLY

 

[DocStranger]

I think people took the garbage man thing too literally... the point was to compare the financials between dentistry and a career which doesn't require as much schooling nor debt that dentistry does. Plug in any career you like and run the numbers yourself. Pick a healthcare career, physicians assistant for example.

It's very noble that you don't care about money, but I feel like that tune will change once you get hit with a 60k a year student loan note. Even the most altruistic doctors care about money, at the very least you want to be able to pay for your kids insanely high tuition in the future so they won't suffer like we have to.

For those of you who want to be more philanthropic, dedicate 2 days of your work week to go volunteer in your local dental clinic. You'll be working for free, but that shouldn't matter since you don't care about money. I've volunteered at those clinics, they are always in need for more dentist hours because dentists rarely want to volunteer there. It's nice to say these kinds of things on a forum, it's even better to actually act on it.

Never said money didn’t play a role. But just bringing up a garbageman job isn’t necessary. People are making it seem like you can compare that to dentistry.