do I need extracurriculars and research?

[riva128zx]

I'm a general dentist in private practice. I can't believe I'm doing this but I want to try out my med school ( US and allopathic ) dreams just once more. I've been thru dental school, did a residency, and took many continuing education courses in dentistry. I treated medically compromised and developmentally disabled patients.

My gpa is very low. If anything, I wouldn't get accepted on the basis of my gpa trend.

I'm putting my acceptance hopes on my DDS degree and a high MCAT score. The MCAT looks so much easier to me now than it was 10 yrs ago.

I have nothing in the way of extracurriculars and research. Do I still need these? If so, how should I do it? I've been out of school for a while and I don't know what to do.

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[dragonfly99]

Personally, I think you are crazy since being a dentist isn't that different from being a doctor...both treat medically important pathology and improve people's health.

I have no idea how med schools will look upon an application from a practicing dentist, though, assuming you get a high MCAT score. I would think you would need less in the way of extracurricular activities, but might need to spend some time in a hospital volunteering nevertheless.

You'll need a really compelling reason/story as to why you are ditching a good career in a related field to go back and get your MD.

 

[gman33]

This may seem crazy, but schools will care more about your UG grades than your dental school work.

What do you mean by very low?

 

[riva128zx]

This may seem crazy, but schools will care more about your UG grades than your dental school work.

I already know that undergrad grades are more important.

But I know of two dental students who transferred out to med schools and one dentist who was also accepted. ( all attended dental schools where the dental students are in the same basic science classes as the med students ) I don't know their exact gpas but they appeared average at best.

I'm not dreaming; I know my odds aren't good so I'm banking on high MCATs, my hospital dentistry experience, and applying to practically almost all med schools across the country. I just wanted to know if there are any other ways to improve my prospective applications.

 

[gman33]

You didn't answer my question, so it's hard to help.

Yes, volunteer work, research, all these things help.
They only help in minor ways.
If your UG gpa is really low (like below 3.0), it won't matter what else you do.


Does your dental school have an associated med school?
If so, maybe you can make some connections and get help that way.

 

[nontrdgsbuiucmd]

concur about GPA that below 3.0 is pretty much the kiss of death on an app. Check the MSAR to verify this, that book (available at amazon.com or aamc.org) lists 10th - 90th percentile of accepted students' GPAs and MCAT scores. But to some extent this can be fixed through post-bacc class, if your undergrad gpa is really low, (almost all schools will look solely at undergrad GPA rather than grad school gpa, with one known exception of OHSU) this can be fixed by earning a bunch of As in undergrad classes.

Regarding the question of ECs -- as a reapplicant I spoke with a bunch of schools' admissions offices/admissions directors. Many placed a high value on volunteer activities; in your case volunteer medical work would likely be warranted to show that you know what a doctor actually does, day in and day out. At a minimum, tutor ESL or voluntee for Habitat for Humanity for 100+ hrs.. given the GPA issue, I'd suggest there be no other "missing" attributes in your application.

i don't think this is crazy, some of us just take a while to decide what we want to do when we grow up, regardless of our ability to earn a comfortable living in another field. My contention is that this gives us a more rounded background (figuring there must be a positive aspect to years' experience in other fields prior to medicine)

 

[riva128zx]

concur about GPA that below 3.0 is pretty much the kiss of death on an app.

Most of you are implying a undergrad gpa cutoff at a 3.0. Does this include any summer courses taken at a different college during your undergrad years?

Also, would a low gpa at dental school hurt my chances for admissions? ( I still graduated in the top half, and the basic science courses were the same as those at the affiliated med school )

 

[nontrdgsbuiucmd]

GPA is calculated by AAMC, it includes all courses taken for a letter grade at all undergraduate institutions (which I think was 6 for me, mostly after completing undergrad degree)

My grad GPA was quite a bit lower than undergrad. A few schools mentioned this in passing, but it was pretty much ignored. I would doubt yours would be viewed much differently -- as it was explained to me, there are so many candidates applying with different backgrounds, that admissions committees can't really use different yardsticks (lower GPA in dental school versus middle GPA in PhD English program?) for different students.

 

[michaelrack]

You could possibly get in through some type of back door for oral surgeons. don't know much about this. would it be possible for you to do some dental training in oral surgery and then go back and get your md? you may want to talk to some oral surgeons who have combined dental and md degrees. Of course, once you have your md, you can do residency training in any field you like.

 

[mbe36]

The radiologist I shadowed went back for his MD after being a DDS for some time.

I suggest you calling the specific schools you are interested in. Explain your situation and see how you need to approach it. This is a very unique situation- so I would contact schools directly.

 

[riva128zx]

If your UG gpa is really low (like below 3.0), it won't matter what else you do.

Ok, I took the time to calculate my gpas.

They are:
overall undergrad: 2.99 - 2.999
undergrad BCPM: either 3.0 or higher
dental gpa: 2.0 - 3.0 ( but I was still ranked in the top 40% )

Does this mean it won't matter what else I do? Will AMCAS round up my overall undegrad gpa? Will my dental gpa hurt me?

 

[Chocolate Bear]

If you applied to DO schools, you could retake a few classes and be left with a much more improved GPA, since the DO application takes the last attempt at a class and disregards all previous attempts when calculating your GPA.

DO schools tend to be more forgiving to non-traditional students with lower GPAs from way back in the day, but who they are confident will do well in medical school, based on other factors. These factors can include successful medical school level basic science coursework (which you have from your DDS). However, this last point is valid for MD schools as well, when talking about an SMP (special master's program, usually consists of med school first year classes, designed to feed low GPA students into med school). Nonetheless, I think your chances are significantly higher at DO schools than MD ones.

My only point of hesitation is that I don't know if you want to do any sort of combined practice (oral surgery, etc.) or anything where you might need the more highly regarded MD to open doors for you. If not, I'm happy to lead you to some good DO info.

 

[NeuroSync]

You asked about extra curricular activities. What medical schools will want to know is "How do you know you want to switch fields and become a physician?" You will have to demonstrate this by having first hand knowledge of what it means to be a physician. This means spending some time with them, either shadowing or volunteering. I don't think it would be productive to simply volunteer in what you are currently doing. It won't matter.

As for the grades everyone is talking about, it is true that UG grades are most important. You can, however, fix this by repeating your pre-requisites, but this should be done over a short amount of time to demonstrate that you can handle a heavy load of difficult courses. But I agree with you that a high MCAT score can outweigh the grades. But this will be a red flag to the admission committee as they will wonder why you are smart enough to do well, but not motivated enough to pull it off. The way they see it, is that medicine is a long haul, and the learning never ends. They want people who have demonstrated that they are willing and able to do this. There are so few objective measures to predict that, so they latch on to undergrad performance...for better or worse.

I hope that you are successful. It takes a lot of guts to make a big change like that.

 

[gman33]

Dental gpa might not hurt. You have shown you can complete the courses, so that "should" count for something.

The UG grades will really hurt. Not to sound negative, but I think you will have a significant amount of work to do before you have a chance at any MD schools. DO schools might be more forgiving, plus you could retake some old classes and boost your gpa a lot faster. DO schools will only count the new grades.

In any case, contact a few schools and try to talk to someone in the admissions office. If you PM me, I'll give you a name of someone at my school who would probably talk to you.

 

[riva128zx]

so are most of you suggesting a postbac or an MS program in bio?

Any particular suggestions?

I emailed the premed advisor at my undergrad and maybe about fifteen med schools for some feedback. I didn't hear back from my undergrad. As for med schools, only five had actually emailed me back. Their emails kept emphasizing that they look at the 'whole' applicant rather than just grades but they sound very generic. For at least one email response, I'm quite sure the body of the text was cut and pasted from a template.

 

[Snake Doctor]

so are most of you suggesting a postbac or an MS program in bio?

Any particular suggestions?

I emailed the premed advisor at my undergrad and maybe about fifteen med schools for some feedback. I didn't hear back from my undergrad. As for med schools, only five had actually emailed me back. Their emails kept emphasizing that they look at the 'whole' applicant rather than just grades but they sound very generic. For at least one email response, I'm quite sure the body of the text was cut and pasted from a template.

Why don't you just call the medical schools? Or if you are near a med school, schedule an appointment and speak with someone in admissions face to face. It's hard to ignore a unique situation like yours when you are talking to them live. Just my $0.02

 

[gman33]

so are most of you suggesting a postbac or an MS program in bio?

Any particular suggestions?

I think you need to do something to offset the UG GPA.
Schools don't like to mess up their admission stats by taking someone with a low GPA. You have to have some other things that are really outstanding for them to do it. Try to make an appointment with someone in the admissions office at a school of interest. I met with people at a couple different schools while I was going through the postbacc/admissions game. It was very helpful for me. Every school is going to look at situations a little differently. Try calling instead of email. You may get a better response that way. If you PM me, I can give you a contact at my school. It's in Philly so that might not be helpful.

 

[riva128zx]

If you applied to DO schools, you could retake a few classes and be left with a much more improved GPA, since the DO application takes the last attempt at a class and disregards all previous attempts when calculating your GPA.

My only point of hesitation is that I don't know if you want to do any sort of combined practice (oral surgery, etc.) or anything where you might need the more highly regarded MD to open doors for you. If not, I'm happy to lead you to some good DO info.

Back in college, I did retake several classes and I scored higher on all the retakes. My overall/bcpm/science gpa for osteopathic schools would still be on the low end but I know they would all be definitely at least a 3.0.

For osteopathic schools, would it be enough if I just score over a 30 on the MCAT without taking anymore classes? How competitive would I appear for the most competitive osteopathic schools?

 

[Chocolate Bear]

Back in college, I did retake several classes and I scored higher on all the retakes. My overall/bcpm/science gpa for osteopathic schools would still be on the low end but I know they would all be definitely at least a 3.0.

For osteopathic schools, would it be enough if I just score over a 30 on the MCAT without taking anymore classes? How competitive would I appear for the most competitive osteopathic schools?

A 30 and a 3.0+, with good essays and a compelling argument for switching careers would be fairly competitive. Definitely worth applying this year. If you find yourself reapplying later, I'd try to bump it to at least a 3.2, but you have a good shot.

 

[riva128zx]

I think you need to do something to offset the UG GPA.
Schools don't like to mess up their admission stats by taking someone with a low GPA. You have to have some other things that are really outstanding for them to do it. Try to make an appointment with someone in the admissions office at a school of interest. I met with people at a couple different schools while I was going through the postbacc/admissions game. It was very helpful for me. Every school is going to look at situations a little differently. Try calling instead of email. You may get a better response that way .

Ok, I made a few phone calls to some allopathic schools. For everywhere I contacted, I was transferred from one person to the next. I have gotten responses ranging from "I don't know" , "based on our stats from the incoming class, your grades are very low so you should do an MS program and get 4.0s" , "please go to our website and compare yourself to the incoming class", "stay as a dentist; don't bother applying with those grades" ," the MCAT will be the most critical in your application","please send an email" ( never heard back from them via email ) , and " the committee will look at your overall application and not just the gpa."

I don't know the exact title of the people I spoke with but does this sound like their discreet way of telling me I won't get accepted?

 

[dragonfly99]

I don't see that you are competitive for any US MD schools with your current undergraduate GPA. You would need significant postbac course work to even have any shot.

I think it would make more sense to go for DO. With a decent MCAT score you might have a shot at a DO school, though still expect stiff competition, because most applicants have >>3.0 GPA's (for both DO and MD schools).

Think about whether the debt you'll incur to become a physician will be worth it, when you've already completed one doctoral program in a clinical area (dentistry). I think it will not be worth it if you go into any field of primary care, because they are similar to dentistry in that they stress prevention of illness/disease, and likely make a similar (or less?) $$ and likely with much more interference from insurance companies to be dealt with.

 

[riva128zx]

I don't see that you are competitive for any US MD schools with your current undergraduate GPA. You would need significant postbac course work to even have any shot.

Should I bother to take the MCAT and apply to allopathic schools this year?

Or should I just forfeit the idea and somehow raise my undergrad gpa first? I've been thinking of enrolling at an undergrad school as a nondegree student and maybe spending 2 years taking a full load of science courses only. I'm not sure if that's a good idea or if I'm better off doing an offical pre-med postbac or SMP program.

 

[dragonfly99]

wow so first you'd need to do a few years of hard core postbac or SMP style classes and graduate classes and do really well in them and get a great MCAT score.

Secondly, why in god's name would you leave dentistry when you are already working in one of the most respected healthcare professions which has less of the hassles of medicine i.e. not having to deal with insurance issues on the same large scale as medicine, easier lifestyle, and good money, while still being able to help others in a healthcare aspect??? I just don't get it.

I agree with this.
I do not think he should do it (go to med school).
I just am not seeing this...basically he is wanting to leave one career for a very similar career, and spend 10-14+ years doing that. Say 2-3 years of postbac courses, 4 years of med school, 3-7 years of residency. If he quits dentistry he'll be making zero money and paying to take undergrad classes that he's probably not going to be that interested in. Even after doing all that, no guarantee of admission to medical school. I'm afraid he'd find out that practicing medicine has a lot of the same pluses/minuses and practicing dentistry, so if not liking dentistry he might also not like medicine.

Ultimately, it is his choice, but I really think this guy needs to approach this whole decision with a huge amount of caution and introspection.

 

[riva128zx]

wow so first you'd need to do a few years of hard core postbac or SMP style classes and graduate classes and do really well in them and get a great MCAT score.

Secondly, why in god's name would you leave dentistry when you are already working in one of the most respected healthcare professions which has less of the hassles of medicine i.e. not having to deal with insurance issues on the same large scale as medicine, easier lifestyle, and good money, while still being able to help others in a healthcare aspect??? I just don't get it.

If I plan on attending a DO school, how likely is it that I can get accepted without taking any postbac classes? What are my chances at the most competitive DO schools? If I choose this application route, should I bother to apply to MD schools at the same time? Also, if my overall AMCAS gpa is a 2.99 or 2.999, does that get rounded up to a 3.0?

 

[dragonfly99]

My impression is that osteopathic schools are not THAT much easier to get into than MD schools...particularly not in terms of cutting you slack for a low GPA. I would think that a 3.0, or 2.9, whatever it is, would be quite a bit lower than the average at most osteopathic med schools. You should ask on the osteo forum, though, if you want to find out from osteopathic students.

 

[riva128zx]

You didn't answer my question, so it's hard to help.

If your UG gpa is really low (like below 3.0), it won't matter what else you do.

Which gpa are you talking about?

The cumulative, science, or all other gpa?

 

[beckhunter116]

Which gpa are you talking about?

The cumulative, science, or all other gpa?

Both cumulative and science are going to be what's reviewed by the admin committee.

For DO schools, no one can give you a guarentee on your chances of being admitted; however, it seems slightly foolish to rest all of your application on your hope of a high MCAT (unless you have already taken it) and you being a dentist.

If you really want to go to medical school then you need to show the admin that you know what you are getting into and that you have volunteered like every other applicant. Obviously you are not satisfied with dentistry, but are you SURE--$250,000 plus lost wages sure--that medicine will satisfy what dentistry hasn't?

Good luck!

 

[njbmd]

I'm a general dentist in private practice. I can't believe I'm doing this but I want to try out my med school ( US and allopathic ) dreams just once more. I've been thru dental school, did a residency, and took many continuing education courses in dentistry. I treated medically compromised and developmentally disabled patients.

My gpa is very low. If anything, I wouldn't get accepted on the basis of my gpa trend.

I'm putting my acceptance hopes on my DDS degree and a high MCAT score. The MCAT looks so much easier to me now than it was 10 yrs ago.

I have nothing in the way of extracurriculars and research. Do I still need these? If so, how should I do it? I've been out of school for a while and I don't know what to do.

You can't seem to find a free dental clinic somewhere that you could do some volunteer work? You don't know what to do? Hmmm???

Many people have decided that the MCAT is easy and that they would score high only to find just the opposite. A high MCAT under the best of conidtions isn't going to overshadow poor undergraduate work and essentially nothing other than work in your application. I am sure that you can find some dental buds to give you glowing LORs but you need some from professors too (have to find a few from 10 years ago). Have fun with the career exploration.

I had a couple of dentists in my medical school class but they were not 10 years out of school and bored.

 

[riva128zx]

Many people have decided that the MCAT is easy and that they would score high only to find just the opposite. A high MCAT under the best of conidtions isn't going to overshadow poor undergraduate work and essentially nothing other than work in your application. I am sure that you can find some dental buds to give you glowing LORs but you need some from professors too (have to find a few from 10 years ago). Have fun with the career exploration.

Yes I've taken a lot of exams before and I always know that the real test will be harder than the practice questions. The MCAT is no exception and this test covers several subjects in depth. I'm not downplaying its difficulty.

But, for someone with crappy grades like myself, if there's any reason to apply to medical schools, it'll be because of a high MCAT score. I can't fix my gpa at this point. Sure, I can go back to undergrad but I'm old enough as it is.

For allopaths, what do you think is the minimum I should get on the MCAT to even bother applying? How much will my dental experience help me?
Is my situation so bad that there is no point in trying?

 

[njbmd]

Yes I've taken a lot of exams before and I always know that the real test will be harder than the practice questions. The MCAT is no exception and this test covers several subjects in depth. I'm not downplaying its difficulty.

But, for someone with crappy grades like myself, if there's any reason to apply to medical schools, it'll be because of a high MCAT score. I can't fix my gpa at this point. Sure, I can go back to undergrad but I'm old enough as it is.

For allopaths, what do you think is the minimum I should get on the MCAT to even bother applying? How much will my dental experience help me?
Is my situation so bad that there is no point in trying?

I am not sure that you "get" the application to medical school gig. You don't need to be asking about "minimum" MCAT scores, you have a ton of other things to work on (not the least of which is your academics) in order to make yourself competitive.

Dental school isn't going to figure much in the process unless you are applying for oral surgery residency (which would make more sense in your case anyway). You could avoid the whole MCAT and medical school experience but still pick up valuable experience by spending a significant amount of time rotating through medical fields such as surgical intensive care unit, internal medicine, trauma, anesthesiology, general surgery, plastic and reconstructive surgery, and emergency medicine.

Oral surgery residents (at my university program) participate in grand rounds, facial trauma conference, orthognathic conference, weekly morbidity and mortality series, and clinical pathology courses and a whole host of other medicine experiences that your dental degree would allow you to enter. Again, this makes more sense than trying to enter medical school since you feel that time is a factor.

Age isn't going to be much of a factor either. In short, what are you trying to accomplish and how are you going to convince an admissions committee that you are now dedicated to medicine because it's always been your "dream" but you entered dentistry instead?

Let me tell you what you want to hear:

• Medical schools are going to "beat a path to your door" because you are dentist.
• Yes, you will be able to ace the MCAT because you have plenty of test-taking experience and it's looks easy to you now.
• Don't bother with extracurricular activities because you are a dentist and that will make you automatically the top choice for any medical school.

Now that you have heard what you want to hear, I can tell you that a high MCAT is not going to make you competitive for medical school. You need the whole enchilada. Have a look at the current AMCAS application form and see how many things on that application you can max out with your current status. Even with a strong MCAT score, you will come up short (not that you can't over come your academic shortcoming but are you willing to do this?)

With the average matriculant uGPA at 3.7 and the average MCAT around 31, where do you stand? Dental school (less than distinguished performance) isn't going to figure in that standing other than to provide a means of obtaining extracurricular activities for you (perhaps a couple of LORs from your colleagues). Also, be prepared to write a very strong personal statement that totally explains why now medicine is the career for you.

It isn't just about the numbers but about the entire package. Plot a strategy for getting an entire package together with some convincing evidence that you would make a good physician. Start with the academics because that where you need the most assistance right now.

If you really want this, then the question is NOT "Is my situation so bad that there isn't any point in trying?" but "what's next and how am I going to get it done?"

 

[riva128zx]

It isn't just about the numbers but about the entire package. Plot a strategy for getting an entire package together with some convincing evidence that you would make a good physician. Start with the academics because that where you need the most assistance right now.

If you really want this, then the question is NOT "Is my situation so bad that there isn't any point in trying?" but "what's next and how am I going to get it done?"

Ok but can you elaborate on the part about academics? Are you talking of postbacs? And how high of a gpa are you talking about? My ugrad and dental gpas were each based on four-year curriculums. You can imagine how long it will take to raise my ugrad gpa to anything near the mean gpa of matriculated med students. This was why I started posting here, and it wasn't because I wanted to hear what I want to hear.