DO fear mongering

[costales]

I've seen my kids in action with students from a Top 10 school, and the latter literally didn't know how to talk to or touch a patient.

Well, for one thing, the Aspies and other Sheldon Cooper-type personalities wouldn't touch OMM with a 100-ft pole.

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[costales]

Agree with assessment.

1. If you get a chance, rotate through a small community hospital, a large community hospital, and a large academic (university) hospital - not only is the exposure to pathology different, but so is the culture (for better or worse). I think AOA vs ACGME is a red herring - for fields like internal medicine, doing it at a small community hospital vs a large academic hospital will be different. Sure, the "material" will be the same, as well as knowledge expectation - but small community hospitals ship patients to large academic hospitals. The bread-and-butter cases you'll see everywhere - but the more specialized stuff as well as exposure to advances in medicine (bone marrow transplant service, solid organ transplant service, IABP/LVAD/ECMO, etc) help form a more complete physician. An AOA residency at a large hospital (with those services) will provide a more thorough education than an ACGME residency at a small community hospital. Unfortunately a lot of AOA residencies are located at small community hospitals and hence the perception of inferior AOA residencies.

2. Unlike premeds, the public actually don't care for academic pedigree, and there is actual disdain for academic pedigree (why do you think politicians bash their ivy league educated opponents during debates and commercials about their schools, and why do the opponents hide their pedigree?). Only a small percentage of patients will seek out pedigree (e.g., I only want a HMS alumnus, Hopkins residency trained, Cleveland Clinic cardiology fellowship trained, full professor of medicine/cardiology at Mayo Clinic, and holds the MACP designation in addition to FACC, to treat my run-of-the-mill hyperlipidemia). In that case, you can't win (actually, if they don't come to you, trust me, it's a win on your end). On the other hand, how many people have a distrust for "modern medicine" and will turn to naturopaths, chiropractors, rekki practitioners, their grocery clerk who works part time at GNC, the ladies at the perfume counter at Macy's wearing a white coat, etc. Premeds are so obsessed with that "MD" title that they forget the rest of the world don't really hold it to the high alter that they do.

3. The discrimination/hurdle is at the residency, and perhaps fellowship level. It's there. Some places/fields are more prominent. Others not so much. There are some inherit bias against DOs (known vs unknown, since LCME schools are known to PDs, while DO schools, which are popping up like weeds, are unknown), unfamiliarity with COMLEX scores (is a 600 a good score? what about a 700?), inconsistent clinical exposure (all outpatient rotations during 3rd year medical school, having a nurse as surgical preceptors, etc. Some schools are on the ball and have excellent clinical exposure with good affiliation, while others throw you to the wolves). But once you make it pass that hurdle - it really doesn't matter. Once you get in, no one cares if you're a DO or MD. They care if you are a good doctor or not. In private practice, if you can be a good employee/partner and generate revenue (while making the lives of other doctors easier), they don't care about your degree. In academic medicine, there's more academic "snobbery" involved, but they care more about your scholarly activities, ability to bring in grant money, and reputation amongst your scholarly colleagues. There are academic DOs at UCSF (Robert Hendren is a professor and vice-chair of psychiatry), Harvard (Ross Zafonte is an endowed full professor and chairman of PM&R at HMS), Yale (Michael Leslie is an assistant professor of Orthopedics and Rehab), etc. Of course it is a tougher glass ceiling to break, but it is possible.

4. Your stereotypical pre-allo post would be "Help, I'm a 4th year college student with a cGPA of 2.3 and sGPA of 2.1. What can I do to become a doctor, and I don't want to be a DO unless that is the last and only option. Btw, please read my personal statement on how I want to be a doctor because I want to help people". But of course, the pre-osteo post would be "Help, I'm a 4th year college student with a cGPA of 2.3, and a sGPA of 2.1. I just discovered osteopathic medicine and fell in love with its philosophy, its history, and the DOs I will soon meet are nice and friendly, unlike the MD jerks. Quick question since I don't have any google or wikipedia skills - can DOs write prescriptions? Also I want to do dermatology or radiation oncology residency at Harvard Medical School, but I'm afraid the DO degree will stop me (it's gotta be the DO degree, what else could prevent me from that residency). Is that true?" You can't help but laugh sometimes.

Just do your best, whether in undergrad, medical school, residency, fellowship, post-fellowship (eg real job). Live life. Make people better. Make people smile. Do that, and no one will care if you have MD or DO after your name.

This should be stickied for future reference.

 

[Conflagration]

Well, for one thing, the Aspies and other Sheldon Cooper-type personalities wouldn't touch OMM with a 100-ft pole.

Hey buddy, I'm Aspie and I wouldn't care. It'd be heaven for me- focusing on one person at a time, quiet, and you get to feel all sorts of cool things. But n=1 and I'm more tactile-depraved than most on the spectrum. The psychiatric tag of "lack of empathy" does help a little; I can look at open bleeding wounds and instead of being disturbed, I'm more curious as to how it happened. I watch my nurse mom take out her own sutures after skin biopsies like it's good TV because of the amount of skill needed. I'm an odd duck, I know.

Now, I know that's my personal experience, but my alma mater opened a DO school recently and I think I'd enjoy going there. But that is just my experience.

 

[LilEngineThatCould]

Nope. Here's the correct order - from the famous janitor thread:

lol funniest thing I've read so far. The logic there is flawless hahaha

I think most ppl out in the real world understand that these two professions are essentially equal (or at least progressing that way). The accepted MCAT/GPAs have risen in only a few years and will probably continue to do so with more and more students applying DO. There are quite a few DO schools that are breaking into the low-tier MD territory in fact so that argument will soon go out the window. Anyway, there's always someone else to bash on so just don't pay it any mind. With the merger, the AOA residencies will also probably improve because they will have to so I don't see that being an issue in the future, but I guess we'll see in a few years.

 

[TeddyBoomBoom]

Agree with assessment.

1. If you get a chance, rotate through a small community hospital, a large community hospital, and a large academic (university) hospital - not only is the exposure to pathology different, but so is the culture (for better or worse). I think AOA vs ACGME is a red herring - for fields like internal medicine, doing it at a small community hospital vs a large academic hospital will be different. Sure, the "material" will be the same, as well as knowledge expectation - but small community hospitals ship patients to large academic hospitals. The bread-and-butter cases you'll see everywhere - but the more specialized stuff as well as exposure to advances in medicine (bone marrow transplant service, solid organ transplant service, IABP/LVAD/ECMO, etc) help form a more complete physician. An AOA residency at a large hospital (with those services) will provide a more thorough education than an ACGME residency at a small community hospital. Unfortunately a lot of AOA residencies are located at small community hospitals and hence the perception of inferior AOA residencies.

2. Unlike premeds, the public actually don't care for academic pedigree, and there is actual disdain for academic pedigree (why do you think politicians bash their ivy league educated opponents during debates and commercials about their schools, and why do the opponents hide their pedigree?). Only a small percentage of patients will seek out pedigree (e.g., I only want a HMS alumnus, Hopkins residency trained, Cleveland Clinic cardiology fellowship trained, full professor of medicine/cardiology at Mayo Clinic, and holds the MACP designation in addition to FACC, to treat my run-of-the-mill hyperlipidemia). In that case, you can't win (actually, if they don't come to you, trust me, it's a win on your end). On the other hand, how many people have a distrust for "modern medicine" and will turn to naturopaths, chiropractors, rekki practitioners, their grocery clerk who works part time at GNC, the ladies at the perfume counter at Macy's wearing a white coat, etc. Premeds are so obsessed with that "MD" title that they forget the rest of the world don't really hold it to the high alter that they do.

3. The discrimination/hurdle is at the residency, and perhaps fellowship level. It's there. Some places/fields are more prominent. Others not so much. There are some inherit bias against DOs (known vs unknown, since LCME schools are known to PDs, while DO schools, which are popping up like weeds, are unknown), unfamiliarity with COMLEX scores (is a 600 a good score? what about a 700?), inconsistent clinical exposure (all outpatient rotations during 3rd year medical school, having a nurse as surgical preceptors, etc. Some schools are on the ball and have excellent clinical exposure with good affiliation, while others throw you to the wolves). But once you make it pass that hurdle - it really doesn't matter. Once you get in, no one cares if you're a DO or MD. They care if you are a good doctor or not. In private practice, if you can be a good employee/partner and generate revenue (while making the lives of other doctors easier), they don't care about your degree. In academic medicine, there's more academic "snobbery" involved, but they care more about your scholarly activities, ability to bring in grant money, and reputation amongst your scholarly colleagues. There are academic DOs at UCSF (Robert Hendren is a professor and vice-chair of psychiatry), Harvard (Ross Zafonte is an endowed full professor and chairman of PM&R at HMS), Yale (Michael Leslie is an assistant professor of Orthopedics and Rehab), etc. Of course it is a tougher glass ceiling to break, but it is possible.

4. Your stereotypical pre-allo post would be "Help, I'm a 4th year college student with a cGPA of 2.3 and sGPA of 2.1. What can I do to become a doctor, and I don't want to be a DO unless that is the last and only option. Btw, please read my personal statement on how I want to be a doctor because I want to help people". But of course, the pre-osteo post would be "Help, I'm a 4th year college student with a cGPA of 2.3, and a sGPA of 2.1. I just discovered osteopathic medicine and fell in love with its philosophy, its history, and the DOs I will soon meet are nice and friendly, unlike the MD jerks. Quick question since I don't have any google or wikipedia skills - can DOs write prescriptions? Also I want to do dermatology or radiation oncology residency at Harvard Medical School, but I'm afraid the DO degree will stop me (it's gotta be the DO degree, what else could prevent me from that residency). Is that true?" You can't help but laugh sometimes.

Just do your best, whether in undergrad, medical school, residency, fellowship, post-fellowship (eg real job). Live life. Make people better. Make people smile. Do that, and no one will care if you have MD or DO after your name.

 

[Lawgiver]

Hey buddy, I'm Aspie and I wouldn't care. It'd be heaven for me- focusing on one person at a time, quiet, and you get to feel all sorts of cool things. But n=1 and I'm more tactile-depraved than most on the spectrum. The psychiatric tag of "lack of empathy" does help a little; I can look at open bleeding wounds and instead of being disturbed, I'm more curious as to how it happened. I watch my nurse mom take out her own sutures after skin biopsies like it's good TV because of the amount of skill needed. I'm an odd duck, I know.

Now, I know that's my personal experience, but my alma mater opened a DO school recently and I think I'd enjoy going there. But that is just my experience.

Hey now, no need for calling urself names, u dont sound depraved.

 

[Conflagration]

Hey now, no need for calling urself names, u dont sound depraved.

I appreciate the compliment; but most on the spectrum could use less tactile info, where I'm the inverse. It's weird; but I don't mind it.

 

[DermViser]

Wait until some of your class start gunning for a derm residency, with the pain of the crunch (expanding schools) coming their way, you will slowly start seeing them consider these "inferior" DO derm residencies.

DO Derm residencies are considered inferior bc they frequently take place in private practices in which they are essentially cheap or free labor and they don't see as much skin pathology, unlike academic medical centers. It's why the AOCD is now scared bc they don't want the merger to happen or their residency will be closed for not meeting ACGME standards.

 

[572776]

Nope. Here's the correct order - from the famous janitor thread:

lolololololololololololol

 

[deleted407021]

I have noticed that the mental overtone of pre osteo is much more level headed than pre allo.

Really, DO is like, "what can I do to improve my app?" Vs MD being "is A- looked bad upon?"

 

[Promethean]

I like to spend a little time in pre-allo. Why? Because they are/will be my colleagues, and because the real differences between allo/osteo are not so profound that we can't learn a lot from each other.

But there is definitely a different tone over there. Bro-ish, one-upmanship. Sarcasm and abuse when someone asks a sincere, but ill-informed question. Disagreements turn into flamewars, not discussions... Yet they claim that my contention that DOs are less likely to be doucheaholics is false. I'm not saying that every DO is a saint. I am saying that, when dealing with big numbers, small trends can make a difference. If there is even a small subset of gunner types that would NEVER dream of going the DO route, then having those jerks choose low tier and off shore MD schools in preference to my higher tier DO school options will tend to make fewer dinguses among my classmates.

I work in a pretty awesome place with lots of doctors, MD and DO. I have noticed you can't tell who is an MD and who is a DO without actually looking at their badges. From staff to residents, in virtually all of our specialties, including competitive ROAD specialties like optho and anesethesia, we have MDs and DOs working side by side with absolutely no friction related to which degree they hold. In the real world, after pre-med, no one really cares much it.

Still, for me, DO is the better choice. The more of us who make that our first choice, the faster the antiquated biases will evaporate.

 

[sillyjoe]

So I have spent some time on the pre allo forum.

Worst mistake of my life.

Really confirmed my belief of wanting to be a DO and not to have to deal with people who are so full of themselves.

Moving on from that rant I wanted to talk to people over here about some of the stuff we were talking about there as I feel DO people can give a more real and non biased answer.

So I'm gonna start some of the things they fear monger about.

First they seem to question the quality of AOA residencies. Fear mongering or true?

Second they seem to question the ability to do humanitarian aid in third world countrjes as a DO. Based on my research it doesn't seen to be limited. Came across this. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/dos-and-doctors-without-borders.95337/

Fear mongering or accurate.

Any DO residents here wanna comment on getting residencies? This was another fear monger tactic they used.

There were also just plane uncalled for insults but I will leave those out.

You will find condescending immature people in every facet of life. I believe you are correct in that there are people who shun anything that is not an MD and are conceited about it. To make a blanket statement like this, however, is IMHO just as detrimental as those you claim are "full of themselves". Plenty of people with an MD do not look down upon DO degrees and I am sure there are examples of pompous DO's.

I personally am trying for allopathic, but I think DO's are just as qualified to practice medicine. What is more important to me is how they act as a person and a professional.

 

[hallowmann]

Spain is not a "third-world" country. As poor as their health service is, I can name a whole bunch of Spanish-speaking countries with a more acute need for physicians which can grant DOs an unlimited license to practice medicine. I'm willing to bet that your MD friends will mostly not be practicing in Spain unless they have family connections there anyways.

I have no opinion on the merits of attending a DO school vs a Caribbean MD school for working with MSF. I suspect that you can do similar work either way. I am personally thankful to be attending a DO school for other reasons.

Not even just that. The majority of aid organizations are usually limited in scope of practice by certification in the aid organization's country of origin, not in the country where they're working. In other words, there are plenty of countries that don't allow DOs practice rights, but that do allow DOs to practice as physicians in their country when those docs are with aid organizations like Doctors Without Borders.

Also, all MDs are not created equal. People who haven't looked into it (and years ago, I was one of them) have this misconception that an MD from a Carib school is the same internationally as an MD from the US. It is not. Each medical society/government in each country looks at both the degree and the school (and obviously the school's country) when deciding on practice rights. There are plenty of countries where some Carib grads simply can't get practice rights, and there are even some that give practice rights to DOs, but not Carib MDs.

My recommendation to anyone where this may be an issue, is to look into the countries you may be interested in moving to, and look at what theur specific policies are.

It's not just DO schools, I remember some one providing a list of countries that only allow a certain MDs graduating from certain schools to practice in their countries. So even MDs are cherry picked. I think when DOs become greater in numbers, then more of these countries will be willing for them to practice in their borders.

Side note: I wouldn't keep going to the pre-allo forums if I were you. They just talk about the most neurotic things. Ex. "Is there a difference between a 3.69 GPA and 3.7 GPA" (times that by ten).

This is absolutely true as well.

And they are correct about that. Up until recently, it was much harder to get a school LCME accredited than COCA accredited.

I completely agree that they are correct in COCA being more lax than LCME (up until recently), so it was easier to make a DO school than an MD school, but I think the latter part of the statement (that because of that "DO schools aren't as good as MD ones") is probably debatable.

It pretty much was until recently. Medical students did rotations on-site. with teaching hospitals directly adjacent or in the same city. I'm sure that's been relaxed due to societal pressure on lack of doctors, yada, yada. So up until then the LCME did quite a good job on quality control of med schools.

Yeah, this is definitely true. Things they are a changin.

 

[motz]

Dang. DOs crapping on pre-meds. Talk about low-hanging fruit. I find it odd some DOs claim they do not care about academic pedigree, university programs, etc. but use examples of DOs at UCSF, Yale, and other highly regarded institutions to encourage themselves as a psychological salve. I never hear people encourage people to apply to DO programs by saying, "They got into this AOA program and the training was top-notch! Here's why this program is the best!" It usually goes, "They eventually got into a USMLE program, just like the MDs!" If that's how you argue for the DO degree, it only entrenches the DO stigma.

There's too much of a range in quality in MD and DO schools (from my impression) to even say DOs are like X, MDs are like Y. I would never choose a degree based on how friendly a DO was vs. an MD, unless the training reflected differences in bedside manner or something. I have met many nice NPs. I do not want to be an NP. I want the specific training of an MD/DO.

To me, it's weird people from DO schools see themselves as DOs first, and not the alumni of their school. Personally, I think which school you go to reflects your experience more than the degree. If people showed pride in their school more than their degree, I think more people would consider going to a DO school. As of now, DO schools are largely anonymous and interchangeable. Feeling pride in a degree is much more abstract than pride in a school or a community you are connected to and chose to attend. It feels less authentic.

I also find it very cynical people here are mocking pre-meds with low GPAs and MCATs asking questions in earnest. People are neurotic about GPA and their MCAT because it matters to medical schools. If you think GPA or MCAT is not a good indication about the caliber of students, emphasize how holistic the DO application process is and stop mocking people with lower scores. Because that's what many pre-MDs do to pre-DOs.

Instead of getting angry at naive pre-meds who may have justified opinions on attending a DO school, why don't you guys attack the program directors who discriminate against DOs? The opinions of 18-22 year old pre-meds don't matter that much, though it influences who attends which school. The opinions of program directors matter, though. No one is mocking their discrimination against DOs. Instead, we read: "Haha, that 19 year old kid asked a naive question on a forum! We are medical students. We are much smarter!" Less cynical circle-jerking and more explaining of the virtues of osteopathic education is needed. Showing off the innovative curriculum or training of DO schools wouldn't hurt. I'm not talking about OMM.

Most students don't care about OMM, just like they don't care about whether or not they can practice medicine in Eritrea or Sri Lanka. It just isn't relevant. You've got to have more reasons why the DO education is superior.

 

[darklabel]

Dang. DOs crapping on pre-meds. Talk about low-hanging fruit. I find it odd some DOs claim they do not care about academic pedigree, university programs, etc. but use examples of DOs at UCSF, Yale, and other highly regarded institutions to encourage themselves as a psychological salve. I never hear people encourage people to apply to DO programs by saying, "They got into this AOA program and the training was top-notch! Here's why this program is the best!" It usually goes, "They eventually got into a USMLE program, just like the MDs!" If that's how you argue for the DO degree, it only entrenches the DO stigma.

There's too much of a range in quality in MD and DO schools (from my impression) to even say DOs are like X, MDs are like Y. I would never choose a degree based on how friendly a DO was vs. an MD, unless the training reflected differences in bedside manner or something. I have met many nice NPs. I do not want to be an NP. I want the specific training of an MD/DO.

To me, it's weird people from DO schools see themselves as DOs first, and not the alumni of their school. Personally, I think which school you go to reflects your experience more than the degree. If people showed pride in their school more than their degree, I think more people would consider going to a DO school. As of now, DO schools are largely anonymous and interchangeable. Feeling pride in a degree is much more abstract than pride in a school or a community you are connected to and chose to attend. It feels less authentic.

I also find it very cynical people here are mocking pre-meds with low GPAs and MCATs asking questions in earnest. People are neurotic about GPA and their MCAT because it matters to medical schools. If you think GPA or MCAT is not a good indication about the caliber of students, emphasize how holistic the DO application process is and stop mocking people with lower scores. Because that's what many pre-MDs do to pre-DOs.

Instead of getting angry at naive pre-meds who may have justified opinions on attending a DO school, why don't you guys attack the program directors who discriminate against DOs? The opinions of 18-22 year old pre-meds don't matter that much, though it influences who attends which school. The opinions of program directors matter, though. No one is mocking their discrimination against DOs. Instead, we read: "Haha, that 19 year old kid asked a naive question on a forum! We are medical students. We are much smarter!" Less cynical circle-jerking and more explaining of the virtues of osteopathic education is needed. Showing off the innovative curriculum or training of DO schools wouldn't hurt. I'm not talking about OMM.

Most students don't care about OMM, just like they don't care about whether or not they can practice medicine in Eritrea or Sri Lanka. It just isn't relevant. You've got to have more reasons why the DO education is superior.

Great post. I also think it's ridiculous to see pre-DO's and DO's bash "low tier" MD schools and say that some DO schools are better without any metric what-so-ever and then picking on Pre-Allo for caring too much about pedigree.

I hope that someday the bias goes away and we can be judged on merit alone. Creating a further divide between Pre-Allo and Pre-DO and between MD and DO students doesn't really solve anything.

 

[D4C]

Dang. DOs crapping on pre-meds. Talk about low-hanging fruit. I find it odd some DOs claim they do not care about academic pedigree, university programs, etc. but use examples of DOs at UCSF, Yale, and other highly regarded institutions to encourage themselves as a psychological salve. I never hear people encourage people to apply to DO programs by saying, "They got into this AOA program and the training was top-notch! Here's why this program is the best!" It usually goes, "They eventually got into a ACGME program, just like the MDs!" If that's how you argue for the DO degree, it only entrenches the DO stigma.

There's too much of a range in quality in MD and DO schools (from my impression) to even say DOs are like X, MDs are like Y. I would never choose a degree based on how friendly a DO was vs. an MD, unless the training reflected differences in bedside manner or something. I have met many nice NPs. I do not want to be an NP. I want the specific training of an MD/DO.

To me, it's weird people from DO schools see themselves as DOs first, and not the alumni of their school. Personally, I think which school you go to reflects your experience more than the degree. If people showed pride in their school more than their degree, I think more people would consider going to a DO school. As of now, DO schools are largely anonymous and interchangeable. Feeling pride in a degree is much more abstract than pride in a school or a community you are connected to and chose to attend. It feels less authentic.

I also find it very cynical people here are mocking pre-meds with low GPAs and MCATs asking questions in earnest. People are neurotic about GPA and their MCAT because it matters to medical schools. If you think GPA or MCAT is not a good indication about the caliber of students, emphasize how holistic the DO application process is and stop mocking people with lower scores. Because that's what many pre-MDs do to pre-DOs.

Instead of getting angry at naive pre-meds who may have justified opinions on attending a DO school, why don't you guys attack the program directors who discriminate against DOs? The opinions of 18-22 year old pre-meds don't matter that much, though it influences who attends which school. The opinions of program directors matter, though. No one is mocking their discrimination against DOs. Instead, we read: "Haha, that 19 year old kid asked a naive question on a forum! We are medical students. We are much smarter!" Less cynical circle-jerking and more explaining of the virtues of osteopathic education is needed. Showing off the innovative curriculum or training of DO schools wouldn't hurt. I'm not talking about OMM.

Most students don't care about OMM, just like they don't care about whether or not they can practice medicine in Eritrea or Sri Lanka. It just isn't relevant. You've got to have more reasons why the DO education is superior.

Fixed, free of charge (this time...!).

 

[D4C]

Great post. I also think it's ridiculous to see pre-DO's and DO's bash "low tier" MD schools and say that some DO schools are better without any metric what-so-ever and then picking on Pre-Allo for caring too much about pedigree.

I hope that someday the bias goes away and we can be judged on merit alone. Creating a further divide between Pre-Allo and Pre-DO and between MD and DO students doesn't really solve anything.

I'd bet they just want to feel special/unique in some way. Don't hold it against them my fine gentleman.

 

[orangeman25]

Dang. DOs crapping on pre-meds. Talk about low-hanging fruit. I find it odd some DOs claim they do not care about academic pedigree, university programs, etc. but use examples of DOs at UCSF, Yale, and other highly regarded institutions to encourage themselves as a psychological salve. I never hear people encourage people to apply to DO programs by saying, "They got into this AOA program and the training was top-notch! Here's why this program is the best!" It usually goes, "They eventually got into a USMLE program, just like the MDs!" If that's how you argue for the DO degree, it only entrenches the DO stigma.

There's too much of a range in quality in MD and DO schools (from my impression) to even say DOs are like X, MDs are like Y. I would never choose a degree based on how friendly a DO was vs. an MD, unless the training reflected differences in bedside manner or something. I have met many nice NPs. I do not want to be an NP. I want the specific training of an MD/DO.

To me, it's weird people from DO schools see themselves as DOs first, and not the alumni of their school. Personally, I think which school you go to reflects your experience more than the degree. If people showed pride in their school more than their degree, I think more people would consider going to a DO school. As of now, DO schools are largely anonymous and interchangeable. Feeling pride in a degree is much more abstract than pride in a school or a community you are connected to and chose to attend. It feels less authentic.

I also find it very cynical people here are mocking pre-meds with low GPAs and MCATs asking questions in earnest. People are neurotic about GPA and their MCAT because it matters to medical schools. If you think GPA or MCAT is not a good indication about the caliber of students, emphasize how holistic the DO application process is and stop mocking people with lower scores. Because that's what many pre-MDs do to pre-DOs.

Instead of getting angry at naive pre-meds who may have justified opinions on attending a DO school, why don't you guys attack the program directors who discriminate against DOs? The opinions of 18-22 year old pre-meds don't matter that much, though it influences who attends which school. The opinions of program directors matter, though. No one is mocking their discrimination against DOs. Instead, we read: "Haha, that 19 year old kid asked a naive question on a forum! We are medical students. We are much smarter!" Less cynical circle-jerking and more explaining of the virtues of osteopathic education is needed. Showing off the innovative curriculum or training of DO schools wouldn't hurt. I'm not talking about OMM.

Most students don't care about OMM, just like they don't care about whether or not they can practice medicine in Eritrea or Sri Lanka. It just isn't relevant. You've got to have more reasons why the DO education is superior.

this.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Great post. I also think it's ridiculous to see pre-DO's and DO's bash "low tier" MD schools and say that some DO schools are better without any metric what-so-ever and then picking on Pre-Allo for caring too much about pedigree.

I hope that someday the bias goes away and we can be judged on merit alone. Creating a further divide between Pre-Allo and Pre-DO and between MD and DO students doesn't really solve anything.

Its not about bashing low tier MD schools. I think those schools are great. However I often use them to compare them to higher DO schools to show the differences aren't that big.

I say some DO schools offer similar or better education to some allo ones based on talking to doctors. Not a metric thing its anecdotal.

I agree about the divide thing. I argue all the time there is no difference. It seems to me the pre allo guys want to differiante people.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Dang. DOs crapping on pre-meds. Talk about low-hanging fruit. I find it odd some DOs claim they do not care about academic pedigree, university programs, etc. but use examples of DOs at UCSF, Yale, and other highly regarded institutions to encourage themselves as a psychological salve. I never hear people encourage people to apply to DO programs by saying, "They got into this AOA program and the training was top-notch! Here's why this program is the best!" It usually goes, "They eventually got into a USMLE program, just like the MDs!" If that's how you argue for the DO degree, it only entrenches the DO stigma.

There's too much of a range in quality in MD and DO schools (from my impression) to even say DOs are like X, MDs are like Y. I would never choose a degree based on how friendly a DO was vs. an MD, unless the training reflected differences in bedside manner or something. I have met many nice NPs. I do not want to be an NP. I want the specific training of an MD/DO.

To me, it's weird people from DO schools see themselves as DOs first, and not the alumni of their school. Personally, I think which school you go to reflects your experience more than the degree. If people showed pride in their school more than their degree, I think more people would consider going to a DO school. As of now, DO schools are largely anonymous and interchangeable. Feeling pride in a degree is much more abstract than pride in a school or a community you are connected to and chose to attend. It feels less authentic.

I also find it very cynical people here are mocking pre-meds with low GPAs and MCATs asking questions in earnest. People are neurotic about GPA and their MCAT because it matters to medical schools. If you think GPA or MCAT is not a good indication about the caliber of students, emphasize how holistic the DO application process is and stop mocking people with lower scores. Because that's what many pre-MDs do to pre-DOs.

Instead of getting angry at naive pre-meds who may have justified opinions on attending a DO school, why don't you guys attack the program directors who discriminate against DOs? The opinions of 18-22 year old pre-meds don't matter that much, though it influences who attends which school. The opinions of program directors matter, though. No one is mocking their discrimination against DOs. Instead, we read: "Haha, that 19 year old kid asked a naive question on a forum! We are medical students. We are much smarter!" Less cynical circle-jerking and more explaining of the virtues of osteopathic education is needed. Showing off the innovative curriculum or training of DO schools wouldn't hurt. I'm not talking about OMM.

Most students don't care about OMM, just like they don't care about whether or not they can practice medicine in Eritrea or Sri Lanka. It just isn't relevant. You've got to have more reasons why the DO education is superior.

I agree with a lot of this post but I'm going to not pick because that's what I do.

As far as the prestige thing goes I would argue DOs don't generally care about prestige because they went to a DO school. As far as arguing about top residencies that accept DOs I would say that gets mentioned to mostly break stigmas. Mostly its a situation where its great if you get something good but not important. Its just like a neat thing to point out.

Moving on as far as GPA/MCAT reflecting caliber I disagree with that a ton. So many factors come into play and I would agrue your med school and beyond accomplishments are far more important. I do believe there is a line though (I believe to be a 3.0/24) that reflects motivation. If you are below that threshold I might criticize a tad. Not in a bad way like pre allos would. Also I don't blame people for being neurotic but I do blame some pre allo guys who complain about 3.98s.(thread on pre allo the other day) you just don't see that on the DO side of the fence.

Also I agree with your last point about program directors versus pre meds.

I also think DO is different (not superior) in ways beyond omm. I could expand upon this. Mostly tenant stuff.

 

[MedicineMan99]

I am a DO Family medicine attending.

Read my lips:

The only people in your entire career who will ever care about whether you are a DO or a MD are ignorant pre-meds.

End of story.

 

[coolingglasses]

lol do people still care about this

SDN plz stop

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

I currently shadow a cardiothoracic surgeon at Virginia Commonwealth University Hospital. She's a DO. 'Nuff said.

I see stuff like this all the time

Agree with assessment.

1. If you get a chance, rotate through a small community hospital, a large community hospital, and a large academic (university) hospital - not only is the exposure to pathology different, but so is the culture (for better or worse). I think AOA vs ACGME is a red herring - for fields like internal medicine, doing it at a small community hospital vs a large academic hospital will be different. Sure, the "material" will be the same, as well as knowledge expectation - but small community hospitals ship patients to large academic hospitals. The bread-and-butter cases you'll see everywhere - but the more specialized stuff as well as exposure to advances in medicine (bone marrow transplant service, solid organ transplant service, IABP/LVAD/ECMO, etc) help form a more complete physician. An AOA residency at a large hospital (with those services) will provide a more thorough education than an ACGME residency at a small community hospital. Unfortunately a lot of AOA residencies are located at small community hospitals and hence the perception of inferior AOA residencies.

2. Unlike premeds, the public actually don't care for academic pedigree, and there is actual disdain for academic pedigree (why do you think politicians bash their ivy league educated opponents during debates and commercials about their schools, and why do the opponents hide their pedigree?). Only a small percentage of patients will seek out pedigree (e.g., I only want a HMS alumnus, Hopkins residency trained, Cleveland Clinic cardiology fellowship trained, full professor of medicine/cardiology at Mayo Clinic, and holds the MACP designation in addition to FACC, to treat my run-of-the-mill hyperlipidemia). In that case, you can't win (actually, if they don't come to you, trust me, it's a win on your end). On the other hand, how many people have a distrust for "modern medicine" and will turn to naturopaths, chiropractors, rekki practitioners, their grocery clerk who works part time at GNC, the ladies at the perfume counter at Macy's wearing a white coat, etc. Premeds are so obsessed with that "MD" title that they forget the rest of the world don't really hold it to the high alter that they do.

3. The discrimination/hurdle is at the residency, and perhaps fellowship level. It's there. Some places/fields are more prominent. Others not so much. There are some inherit bias against DOs (known vs unknown, since LCME schools are known to PDs, while DO schools, which are popping up like weeds, are unknown), unfamiliarity with COMLEX scores (is a 600 a good score? what about a 700?), inconsistent clinical exposure (all outpatient rotations during 3rd year medical school, having a nurse as surgical preceptors, etc. Some schools are on the ball and have excellent clinical exposure with good affiliation, while others throw you to the wolves). But once you make it pass that hurdle - it really doesn't matter. Once you get in, no one cares if you're a DO or MD. They care if you are a good doctor or not. In private practice, if you can be a good employee/partner and generate revenue (while making the lives of other doctors easier), they don't care about your degree. In academic medicine, there's more academic "snobbery" involved, but they care more about your scholarly activities, ability to bring in grant money, and reputation amongst your scholarly colleagues. There are academic DOs at UCSF (Robert Hendren is a professor and vice-chair of psychiatry), Harvard (Ross Zafonte is an endowed full professor and chairman of PM&R at HMS), Yale (Michael Leslie is an assistant professor of Orthopedics and Rehab), etc. Of course it is a tougher glass ceiling to break, but it is possible.

4. Your stereotypical pre-allo post would be "Help, I'm a 4th year college student with a cGPA of 2.3 and sGPA of 2.1. What can I do to become a doctor, and I don't want to be a DO unless that is the last and only option. Btw, please read my personal statement on how I want to be a doctor because I want to help people". But of course, the pre-osteo post would be "Help, I'm a 4th year college student with a cGPA of 2.3, and a sGPA of 2.1. I just discovered osteopathic medicine and fell in love with its philosophy, its history, and the DOs I will soon meet are nice and friendly, unlike the MD jerks. Quick question since I don't have any google or wikipedia skills - can DOs write prescriptions? Also I want to do dermatology or radiation oncology residency at Harvard Medical School, but I'm afraid the DO degree will stop me (it's gotta be the DO degree, what else could prevent me from that residency). Is that true?" You can't help but laugh sometimes.

Just do your best, whether in undergrad, medical school, residency, fellowship, post-fellowship (eg real job). Live life. Make people better. Make people smile. Do that, and no one will care if you have MD or DO after your name.

This.

I love the part about pedigree. Also as far as AOA being at smaller community hospitals thats fair. I would argue that the bread and butter cases are the most important though in your education.

I also agree about the hurdle but the pre allo side makes it seem impossible to climb. Ridiculous.

Very valuable and entertaining insight from an attending physician. Thank you. Its why I love pre osteo forum.

One problem is that there are AOA residencies that just aren't up to ACGME or the majority of AOA standards. Not all, but there are some. These situations make AOA residencies look bad in general. Additionally, many students and physicians at top MD programs are interested in academic medicine and AOA residencies (and DO physicians in general) lack that component. That is viewed as making AOA programs sub-standard. I've done research at two major academic programs for different specialties at different institutions both within 2 miles of my school... not a single physician new my school existed. Didn't even know it existed and it is <2 miles away.

While there are programs and specialties open to DOs, there are many, many programs that are not. The vast majority of competitive ACGME residencies (be in location, prestige of institution, or specialty) do not take DOs. This is absolute fact and based on program director surveys and match results. Many pre-meds and med students take this to mean your career is severely limited by going DO. You decide if those programs are important to you and decide if that's a limit or not.

Then, you come into pre-osteo and see students with no real understanding of medical school or the graduate medical process saying DO the exact same. The truth is somewhere in the middle. There are incredible opportunities for DOs in all specialties and there are exceptions everywhere. Pre-allo exaggerates things in a negative light and pre-osteo does the same in the other direction.

The #1 most important thing you can do Day 1 as a DO medical student is realize how the process works, what realistic roadblocks you are about to face, what a top tier MD applicant looks like for residency, and make a plan to get where you want.

Thanks for the insight.

It seems like the pre allo side doesn't see these opportunities for DO's. Very good advice and you seem to agree that hard work can get you where you want to go as a DO (for the most part). This is something I couldn't convince pre allo people of. (I couldn't even convince them that it isn't so bad to do MSF as a DO).

This should be stickied for future reference.

agreed.

I am a DO Family medicine attending.

Read my lips:

The only people in your entire career who will ever care about whether you are a DO or a MD are ignorant pre-meds.

End of story.

Being that this is so obviously true its a wonder that some on the pre allo side argue for carribean over DO in some instances.