Do Canadian programs consider U.S Electives?

[Blitz2006]

Planning on doing my IM/GSurg electives in the U.S (4 months, 2 months IM, 2 months GSurg).

Anyways, as IMG from UK, looking at applying to NRMP in the U.S next year for IM/GSurg match.

However, I am also a Canadian citizen, so CaRMs does run through my mind sometimes.

Can I apply to Ontario programs with U.S LORs/elective experience? Or will Canadian PDs toss my app in the bin?

Will EE be enough? Cause Knight_MD in another thread mentionned that for FM, MCCEE + MCCQE1 are required. I'll only have EE done by application deadline.

Plus I'll be applying to GSurg/IM...which I assume is more competitive than FM in Ontario....

I did my BSc in Canada with 3 summers of undergrad research and have a summer of research at Univ. of TO while in 1st year meds, so I do have some Canadian background. But yeh, my recent stuff (electives, LORs) will all be American.

Cheers,

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[sop]

If you are a Canadian IMG interested in getting into a surgical residency program in Canada, doing several electives in the US in your chosen surgical specialty will likely do nothing to enhance your application. Your chances of getting into a surgical residency program in Canada are already fairly slim, and one of the few ways you can improve your chances are to do an elective (a) in your chosen specialty and most importantly (b) at the centre or centres where you hope to get a residency position.

 

[Blitz2006]

Hey Sop,

Thx for your 2 cents. I agree and understand that the odds are stacked against me for Gen Surg. Thats why I'm realistically gunning for the U.S (which is no cakewalk either for IMGs, but relatively 'easier')

What about Internal Meds, is that more realistic?

I'm using the carms site for all the stats: https://w1c.e-carms.ca/pdws/jsp/pd.do?p=p1&m=1

If you are a Canadian IMG interested in getting into a surgical residency program in Canada, doing several electives in the US in your chosen surgical specialty will likely do nothing to enhance your application. Your chances of getting into a surgical residency program in Canada are already fairly slim, and one of the few ways you can improve your chances are to do an elective (a) in your chosen specialty and most importantly (b) at the centre or centres where you hope to get a residency position.

 

[sop]

Based on the CaRMS stats - yes of course you have a slightly better chance of getting into an internal medicine (rather than surgical) training program. However my previous recommendations still stand - your chances are always better if you have put a "foot in the door" by doing an elective with the training program you want to get into.

 

[misosouper]

hey there,

just based on what my canadian classmates going into gen surg have been going through (from irish school here), most of them have AT MOST been offered only preliminary spot interviews in the US. don't know what the deal is with the US when it comes to surgery, but as an IMG, you seem to be very limited in terms of even getting a categorical interview. but on the bright side, they have gotten interviews in canada in surg - agree with sop on this, do electives in canada where you're interested in going.

but having said that, if you're ok doing a prelim year and going through the match hassle again in the US, then go for it.

 

[Blitz2006]

hey misosouper

Thx for that. I'm here in the UK so I'm basically the only one in my class of 400 (only 1 other Canadian and doing CaRMs) that is applying for residency in the U.S through NRMP.

Do your canadian classmates go for the pre-lim spots in the U.S? Do you know any who end up switching into categorical after the pre-lim year? I've booked in all my electives for the U.S, so its all or nothing for me with the States. I realized statistically I have a much stronger change for U.S vs. Canada....hopefully I'm right with that.

Are your classmates who get Pre-lim U.S interviews stacked in terms of CV, LORs, USMLEs? What about the ones who get into Canada?

Sorry for all the qs, but like I said, I'm bit on an island over here...

hey there,

just based on what my canadian classmates going into gen surg have been going through (from irish school here), most of them have AT MOST been offered only preliminary spot interviews in the US. don't know what the deal is with the US when it comes to surgery, but as an IMG, you seem to be very limited in terms of even getting a categorical interview. but on the bright side, they have gotten interviews in canada in surg - agree with sop on this, do electives in canada where you're interested in going.

but having said that, if you're ok doing a prelim year and going through the match hassle again in the US, then go for it.

 

[misosouper]

hey there blitz,

i'm in my final year now, and as far as i know, there were a couple of canadians who were offered prelim interviews in the US (where they did electives), but they have canadian interviews in surg so i doubt that they will end up in prelim spots. a couple year ago at our school, one guy did a prelim year at mayo before switching to IM in BC, but other than him, i haven't really heard of any canadians going the US prelim route.

i would recommend applying very broadly - apply to both US and Canada, and see what happens from there. there's no harm in applying. and keep in mind that a prelim spot has its advantages... it will get you your foot in the door and if you do well, they're going to be keen on keeping you. the only downside i guess would be that you'd have to go through the match BS again.

hope this helps! let me know if you have any other questions and i'll ask my surg classmates or get you in touch with them

 

[PteFabulous]

Be careful with doing a preliminary year if you want to eventually to back to Canada. Now I don't know how a preliminary year is different from transitional year (if they are different), but i was told by the director of CARMS that if you do a transitional year then you will never be able to apply to Ontario or Quebec. Now I'm assuming that means for residency, but it's something to keep in mind. She said it is better to not get matched then take a transtional year if you want to go back to Canada.

 

[Blitz2006]

Hey man,

Thx for that heads up. I have heard that CaRMs bans you from any post-medical graduate training if you do a preliminary year in the U.S. This worries me a bit. Is it just Ontario and Quebec that you are banned from? I thought it was all of Canada. But I guess you are right, since the post above by misouper states that their classmate swung into B.C from Mayo...so I guess its just Ontario/Quebec? Very interesting....

My plan A is to stay in the U.S even after residency. But I tend to plan for worst case, which is that I do pre-lim year, then the following year I don't match into anything in the States, so I'm stranded.....and its even riskier since I'll be on J1 visa...so have to deal with ECFMG nonsense as well. Hence me wanting Canada (like B.C or Alberta) as some type of backup if all goes to hell in the States (because I am a Canadian citizen, so at least the red tape part is eliminated if I do CaRMs).

Be careful with doing a preliminary year if you want to eventually to back to Canada. Now I don't know how a preliminary year is different from transitional year (if they are different), but i was told by the director of CARMS that if you do a transitional year then you will never be able to apply to Ontario or Quebec. Now I'm assuming that means for residency, but it's something to keep in mind. She said it is better to not get matched then take a transtional year if you want to go back to Canada.

 

[PteFabulous]

If you want to stay in the States after you're better off focusing on applying broadly to programs in the states then worrying about prelim years, and what that means for Canada. Apply for the Canadian match of coarse, but if you don't match then you still have the US match. If you step score is good, and you apply to enough programs that's your best chance at getting a residency. If you get fully licensed in the States, things are becoming easier to come back to Canada afterwards.

BTW, I don't know if you meant you wanted to practice in AB afterwards, but if your thinking about applying to AB for residency don't even bother, it's nearly impossible.

 

[Blitz2006]

I agree with you 100%, but I've done a lot of research on sdn and it seems like getting categorical Gen Surg as an IMG is next to impossible...even with step scores of 99/99...realistically if I want to do Gen Surg I think I'll have to take the pre-lim spot....then hopefully swing into categorical after 1 year.

Yeh, I was talking about residency. So Ab is out of the question, B.C is alright?

I may apply to Canada, but I honestly don't know when I'll have time to do MCCEE...plus, since U.S is my top choice, I hardly think I'll match into Canada but not the States...I think Canada is much much tougher for GSurg, especially since all my electives will be in the U.S

If you want to stay in the States after you're better off focusing on applying broadly to programs in the states then worrying about prelim years, and what that means for Canada. Apply for the Canadian match of coarse, but if you don't match then you still have the US match. If you step score is good, and you apply to enough programs that's your best chance at getting a residency. If you get fully licensed in the States, things are becoming easier to come back to Canada afterwards.

BTW, I don't know if you meant you wanted to practice in AB afterwards, but if your thinking about applying to AB for residency don't even bother, it's nearly impossible.

 

[PteFabulous]

I agree with you 100%, but I've done a lot of research on sdn and it seems like getting categorical Gen Surg as an IMG is next to impossible...even with step scores of 99/99...realistically if I want to do Gen Surg I think I'll have to take the pre-lim spot....then hopefully swing into categorical after 1 year.

Yeh, I was talking about residency. So Ab is out of the question, B.C is alright?

I may apply to Canada, but I honestly don't know when I'll have time to do MCCEE...plus, since U.S is my top choice, I hardly think I'll match into Canada but not the States...I think Canada is much much tougher for GSurg, especially since all my electives will be in the U.S

It sounds like your on the right track. But don't forget you need to write the mccee to get a J1 visa to do residency in the usa.

For Canadian programs, pretty much anywhere besides QC and AB. Manitoba and East (NL, NB) offer the best chances.

 

[Blitz2006]

Sounds good, thx again.

Some quick follow up questions regarding the MCCEE.

I know it is required for J1 visa.

1) After doing Step 1 and Step 2 later this summer, will that preparation help me for MCCEE? is MCCEE material = step 1 or step 2? I heard its all about the Toronto notes, but that is a massive book and I think a lot of it is for MCCQE1....true?


2) For the J1 visa, when do I need my results by (MCCEE results?). Cause depending on this, I will set my exam date. Assuming I match next year (March 15, 2012) in the States, does that mean I only need the results by March? Or do I need it by the time I apply to ERAS this year (Sept.1, 2011)?

3) Finally, whats the deal with CaRMs? Do I need MCCEE results by Dec. 1 when the application is due, or can I delay it by a couple months?

Thx, and sorry for all the questions, but I'm literally on an island here in the UK as I'm the only canadian in my class of 300+ that is applying to the U.S!

It sounds like your on the right track. But don't forget you need to write the mccee to get a J1 visa to do residency in the usa.

For Canadian programs, pretty much anywhere besides QC and AB. Manitoba and East (NL, NB) offer the best chances.

 

[misosouper]

1) i wrote step 2 in around the same time as the EE - i found usmle world q-bank great for both.

2) as far as i know, the J1 visa documentation is processed after you match to the US. in order to get a statement of need from the canadian province, you need to have written the EE by then, but you might as well do it after step 2 while the material is fresh in your mind.

3) in terms of carms and the EE, best time if you want to be considered in the canadian match is to write it by sept of your final year. there is a november sitting but the results might not be available by the dec 1 deadline and some canadian schools won't look at your application then.

hope this helps!

 

[Gavanshir]

In regards to IMGs not getting any surgical categoricals, a good number do get them from the Caribbean.

 

[Blitz2006]

I always hear this...but I've scoured through several general surgery programs' websites...can't find any IMGs in categoricals...

Any chance you could PM me some programs that you know that have taken Caribbean categoricals?

thx,

In regards to IMGs not getting any surgical categoricals, a good number do get them from the Caribbean.